Bleach Revisions Part 3: Post-Timeskip (Fullbring, TYBW and CFYOW Novel) (Part 3)

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Yes and Ichigo with just his True Bankai bisected Yhwach with a Getsuga, so I'm sure True Bankai Horn of Salvation Ichigo is far above everything else in the series. However, there's such a wide gap between TBHoS Ichigo and TS Ichigo that I don't see why it should be assumed TS Ichigo > the rest of the verse. Also, TS Ichigo doesn't have enough interactions that can directly compared to TYBW/CFYOW Kenpachi outside of the author saying Ichigo (not specifying which form) and Kenpachi could beat Hikone at max power.

Unless you have statement of people being compared to dangai then ichigo still remains the strongest in just shikai as sigurd said before at base they were scared of letting ichigo go back to the real world, not to mention impliying that he is above base kenpachi would imply he need bankai or horn of salvation making kenpach 5B not to mention also impliying hikone so he would also be 5B again unless you have statements of someone being comaprable to TSI or to dangai base ichigo will remain above them

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Thing is the only Getsugas Ichigo ever threw were like the ones he used in Fullbring Bankai, the Jujishou against Candice and the one he uses in the Soul Palace against Almighty Yhwach

At least the ones that have people watching

 

[Zoro21043]

i agree with sigurd

 

[Damage3245]

There is a pretty big inconsistency here from Hikone being FTL from fighting Kenpachi, then getting boosted to MFTL via a 25x multiplier, so therefore Kenpachi becomes MFTL without using Shikai or Bankai... This is just majorly inconsistent.

How could Hikone fight against Kenpachi before releasing his limiter if he was 25x slower than him?

Also, where is it stated that his Resurreccion multiplies his speed by 5? Shouldn't all Resurreccion's follow the same scaling practices as Bankai where we don't automatically multiply them by 5 for all characters?

 

[USklaverei]

As far as I know, it was Kenpachi without the eye patch, moreover, just change, and for fighting with the Arrancars in Resurrección

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes and Ichigo with just his True Bankai bisected Yhwach with a Getsuga, so I'm sure True Bankai Horn of Salvation Ichigo is far above everything else in the series. However, there's such a wide gap between TBHoS Ichigo and TS Ichigo that I don't see why it should be assumed TS Ichigo > the rest of the verse. Also, TS Ichigo doesn't have enough interactions that can directly compared to TYBW/CFYOW Kenpachi outside of the author saying Ichigo (not specifying which form) and Kenpachi could beat Hikone at max power.

Unless you have statement of people being compared to dangai then ichigo still remains the strongest in just shikai as sigurd said before at base they were scared of letting ichigo go back to the real world, not to mention impliying that he is above base kenpachi would imply he need bankai or horn of salvation making kenpach 5B not to mention also impliying hikone so he would also be 5B again unless you have statements of someone being comaprable to TSI or to dangai base ichigo will remain above them

Shunsui being afraid to let Ichigo back to the World of the Living doesn't guarantee TS Ichigo > all other non God Tiers. Normal people couldn't be around Butterfly Aizen but he isn't planetary. If Base Kenpachi > TS Ichigo then TS Ichigo would need HoS to win yes, but TSHoS Ichigo > Base Kenpachi doesn't mean Base Kenpachi is planetary.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

There is a pretty big inconsistency here from Hikone being FTL from fighting Kenpachi, then getting boosted to MFTL via a 25x multiplier, so therefore Kenpachi becomes MFTL without using Shikai or Bankai... This is just majorly inconsistent.
How could Hikone fight against Kenpachi before releasing his limiter if he was 25x slower than him?

Also, where is it stated that his Resurreccion multiplies his speed by 5? Shouldn't all Resurreccion's follow the same scaling practices as Bankai where we don't automatically multiply them by 5 for all characters?

Kenpachi took his eyepatch off againts hikone at one point so it was not just base kenpachi fighting

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Kenpachi constantly limits himself and never goes all out. It seems you forgot this important fact. So no there is no Inconsistency here. Hikone spent the entire tome trying to get him to release Shikai. When Kenpachi got tired of him and going to slaughter him Hisagi stopped him from killing Hikone so he could convince him.

Edit - And as TOAA said he had taken off his eyepatch as well eventually.

Obviously we wouldn't just slap a multiplier on him for nothing. Right after he transformed they talked about how fast he had gotten and that his movements were like it was ignoring gravity or something and how he moved so fast as if time stood still, so yeah he gets a multiplier in speed.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Yes and Ichigo with just his True Bankai bisected Yhwach with a Getsuga, so I'm sure True Bankai Horn of Salvation Ichigo is far above everything else in the series. However, there's such a wide gap between TBHoS Ichigo and TS Ichigo that I don't see why it should be assumed TS Ichigo > the rest of the verse. Also, TS Ichigo doesn't have enough interactions that can directly compared to TYBW/CFYOW Kenpachi outside of the author saying Ichigo (not specifying which form) and Kenpachi could beat Hikone at max power.

Unless you have statement of people being compared to dangai then ichigo still remains the strongest in just shikai as sigurd said before at base they were scared of letting ichigo go back to the real world, not to mention impliying that he is above base kenpachi would imply he need bankai or horn of salvation making kenpach 5B not to mention also impliying hikone so he would also be 5B again unless you have statements of someone being comaprable to TSI or to dangai base ichigo will remain above them

Shunsui being afraid to let Ichigo back to the World of the Living doesn't guarantee TS Ichigo > all other non God Tiers. Normal people couldn't be around Butterfly Aizen but he isn't planetary. If Base Kenpachi > TS Ichigo then TS Ichigo would need HoS to win yes, but TSHoS Ichigo > Base Kenpachi doesn't mean Base Kenpachi is planetary.

"5-B with Merged Hollow Form" so yes ichigo needing horn of salvation to defeat kenpachi makes kenpachi 5B

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Wait I have a question about the Ichigo vs Askin thing. Does Ichigo ever draws his sword against Askin because when Ichigo is shown of the ground "supposedly" beaten he has his swords sheated. Which makes no sense if Ichigo fought Askin he would have drawn his swords even against Grimmjow or the femritters who are fodder to him he drew his swords...Did Ichigo get caught off guard ? Them again anything works cause at this point Kubo is doing RPIS

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Wait I have a question about the Ichigo vs Askin thing. Does Ichigo ever draws his sword against Askin because when Ichigo is shown of the ground "supposedly" beaten he has his swords sheated. Which makes no sense if Ichigo fought Askin he would have drawn his swords even against Grimmjow or the femritters who are fodder to him he drew his swords...Did Ichigo get caught off guard ? Them again anything works cause at this point Kubo is doing RPIS

Na ichigo was following grimmjow and askin but i dont remember him ever atenting to fight him not to mention hax gets around a lot of stuff so there is that lil detail

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It was off panel, likely off guard due to the nature of Askin's power it makes sense he'd drop Ichigo. But since Ichigo was so strong he recovered quickly.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Only for it to later be stated that it wouldn't work on Urahara because he was strong

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Only for it to later be stated that it wouldn't work on Urahara because he was strong

Yeah but Urahara pulled a concoction out of his ass that changed Yoruichi's type of reiatsu, so you could say Askin's thought process was that he could do the same for himself.

 

[Damage3245]

> Obviously we wouldn't just slap a multiplier on him for nothing. Right after he transformed they talked about how fast he had gotten and that his movements were like it was ignoring gravity or something and how he moved so fast as if time stood still, so yeah he gets a multiplier in speed.

Right now he's being given two multipliers.

And the point is; the scaling sandbox acknowledges that base Hikone scales from Kenpachi. Therefore base Hikone should be scaling to MFTL by the previously accepted logic.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

> Obviously we wouldn't just slap a multiplier on him for nothing. Right after he transformed they talked about how fast he had gotten and that his movements were like it was ignoring gravity or something and how he moved so fast as if time stood still, so yeah he gets a multiplier in speed.
Right now he's being given two multipliers.

And the point is; the scaling sandbox acknowledges that base Hikone scales from Kenpachi. Therefore base Hikone should be scaling to MFTL by the previously accepted logic.

I would agree if it were any opponent other than Kenpachi, Kenpachi's whole shtick is holding back to enjoy a fight. So Kenpachi scaling above himself later in the same fight isn't out of the ordinary for him.

 

[Damage3245]

I would agree if it were any opponent other than Kenpachi, Kenpachi's whole shtick is holding back to enjoy a fight. So Kenpachi scaling above himself later in the same fight isn't out of the ordinary for him.

Kenpachi's whole schtick was unconsciously holding himself back - which changed once he unlocked his true power after his training with Unohana.

There is no reason to assume it applies anymore.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I would agree if it were any opponent other than Kenpachi, Kenpachi's whole shtick is holding back to enjoy a fight. So Kenpachi scaling above himself later in the same fight isn't out of the ordinary for him.

Kenpachi's whole schtick was unconsciously holding himself back - which changed once he unlocked his true power after his training with Unohana.
There is no reason to assume it applies anymore.

I mean he still uses the eyepatch so he clearly consciously wants to be able to hold back to enjoy a fight, and it was mentioned above that he utilized his eyepatch during that fight. So Hikone matching eyepatch Kenpachi, powering up, then Kenpachi removes eyepatch, and they still can tag each other makes sense to me.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Because he has 2 multipliers damage...

Are you forgetting what a Gentei Kaijo is? 80% of your power is limited. He released it as well.

I don't really understand what you're going for here. He's already FTL from others. Not from Kenpachi himself.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Kenpachi's whole schtick was unconsciously holding himself back - which changed once he unlocked his true power after his training with Unohana.

There is no reason to assume it applies anymore.

This is just wrong. Obviously he could still limit himself which he does btw. He waited to take off his eyepatch and he didn't use his Shikai. That is limiting yourself. He was trying to have fun, I don't see why you think his entire character changed after this. All he did was unlock his old power via removing all those mental limiters.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

This also means he is also no longer getting crazy strength recovery

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Based on this conversation, I feel like saying TS Ichigo is At least FTL, likely MFTL is entirely fair, because we have direct confirmation that TS Ichigo > Base Hikone and when you combine Shunsui thinking TS Ichigo might be too much for the World of the Living (despite Vice-Captain and above level Soul Reapers being able to have their power limited by 80% upon entrance) and the author saying Ichigo can beat Hikone that speaks to me that it heavily implies TS Ichigo > Hikone at max. However, it's not 100% with no assumptions hence my above porposal.

 

[Duedate8898]

There is one big issue with being Shikai Ichigo at MFTL and that's because this same Ichigo was having trouble with all the Quincy when he was trying to get to Yhwach. While he was portrayed as stronger than most of them, he wasn't portrayed faster to the extent that would imply that they're only FTL while he's MFTL.

Edit: Wrong group name.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well I mean flight speed isn't necessarily equal to combat speed. Ichigo didn't even employ flash step or make an effort to fight back, when reading that part it felt more like how Ichigo behaved when he first invaded Hueco Mundo, i.e. conserve energy. Ichigo clearly didn't wanna exhaust himself any more than he had to while travelling to Yhwach, and since Ichigo's friends showed up to save the day we never saw him get serious there. So, I don't think that's good enough evidence to say he can't be MFTL, but definitely contributes to the TS Ichigo being MFTL not a certainty.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

There is one big issue with being Shikai Ichigo at MFTL and that's because this same Ichigo was having trouble with all the Quincy when he was trying to get to Yhwach. While he was portrayed as stronger than most of them, he wasn't portrayed faster to the extent that would imply that they're only FTL while he's MFTL.

Edit: Wrong group name.

False.

1. Quincy girls were handled effortlessly.

2. Girls, Bazz-B, Robert tried to intervene as well and they were handled easily.

3. When he reached the palace he didn't struggle at all nor did he fight any of the Quincy. All he saw was Uryu betray him and he tried to reason with him swatting all his arrows away and got pushed off the palace.

So don't be dishonest here.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What's up with this kid? The hell kind of Reiatsu is being emitting? Grasping the amount of Reiatsu contained within the small body of the youngster who gave its name as Hikone, Hirako speculates that this person was something else entirely with the form of a child. —— Sure enough, I can't call it Aizen or Ichigo level… but it's still without doubt remarkable. The Reiatsu this mysterious Shinigami possessed was already extraordinary enough as it is.

Question: what version of Hikone was Shinji looking at when he said this?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

1st Meeting.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As a result of slipping himself into the path of the mystery Reiatsu while adjusting his speed, Hirako could easily see the true form of that Reiatsu.

Do you think this quote is enough evidence to say Shinji knows what Hikone's full power is? Because if so Shinji says Ichigo/Aizen's Reiatsu > Hikone's and Aizen said fights are battles of spiritual pressure/reiatsu. So, I mean if Hirako identifying the "true form" of Hikone's Reiatsu means he's aware of Hikone's true power, then Shinji saying Ichigo > Hikone would imply TS Ichigo > Full Power Hikone seeing how Shinji wouldn't have seen any higher forms of Ichigo.

If not then that's just another statement saying TS Ichigo > Base Hikone.

 

[Duedate8898]

@Sigurd You're the one being dishonest, because looking at the images below Ichigo has been stopped on his way, multiple times by people who shouldn't even be able to touch him. And you can't even argue that he isn't trying to go max speed, because he's trying to stop Yhwach in these moments. The only reason these Quincy get stopped in the first place is thanks to renji and the other Soul Reaper cutting them off. He clearly isn't the fastest guy around at the moment.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'd like to bring up that when Aizen had Ulquiorra kidnap Ichigo's future wife, Ichigo still held back in Hueco Mundo so he could save his energy for Grimmjow and Ulquiorra. So Ichigo holding back here is very in character, he tends to hold back against characters he deems he has no reason to fight. Another example being how he didn't strike at full strength at the back of Aizen when he appeared in Fake Karakura, since Aizen never really antagonized Ichigo. Ichigo in that same fight told Candice to dodge his attack because he didn't want to hurt them. It's very clear he was not going all out there. So it's very easy to argue he's not going max speed here. Heck Ichigo didn't even open up his fight with Yhwach with his Bankai, which more so points to Ichigo not wanting to go all out from the start.

 

[Zoro21043]

as they said flight speed is different than combat , plus the sternreiter above said that he was being naive and not paying attention to them , either way as they mentioned above flight and combat speed arent the same take dbz for example when it takes them time to fly from place to place while it shouldnt take them any time if their flight and combat speed were similiar

 

[Duedate8898]

This isn't flight speed though, and we've never tried to make that distinction with bleach before. Unless you're saying we're gonna give Ichigo FTL travel speed with MFTL combat speed, which also doesn't work sense in that very last panel, Ichigo is about to get shot. If he's truly MFTL then he shouldn't have any issue guarding against the attack even if surprised.

 

[Zoro21043]

, he just didnt dodge the first one as the quincy girl said he was being naive so basically off gaurd he dodged the bullet from the other sternreiter , and the burner finger didnt hit due to renji coming in , so u cant assume he couldnt have dodged it

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Except there's precedent for Ichigo to struggle with characters that are far beneath him if he's not feeling it. He constantly jumps insane levels up by finding a "resolve to kill/win" and as seen in those panels and what's already been said Ichigo wasn't at max. Ichigo running from the Quincies is interupted before we get anything substantial. He's obviously restricting himself because he doesn't want to hurt them. He never even tried to flash step or sonido away, in every possible way Ichigo is holding back there.

 

[Duedate8898]

But why would he hold back? He's trying to stop Yhwach, the biggest threat. That's what he's trying to do. He shouldn't be holding back his speed at all, because if he truly is that much faster than all of them, it should be a breeze for him to just shoot on by and get to Yhwach. He wouldn't even have to fight them, because they're would literally have no way to touch him

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Why hold back in Hueco Mundo when he's on his way to save his future wife? It's to conserve energy. He's done it before so it's in his character. Also, when he tells Candice to dodge that's clearly showing us that Ichigo doesn't want or intend to fight these Quincies to the death. So Ichigo has basically said he's not going all out. Combine that with precedent of Ichigo holding back to conserve energy, making it much more believable that he is holding back.

 

[Duedate8898]

He's planning to intercept the most powerful enemy there. He shouldn't be trying to conserve energy especially if he's wanting to keep him out of the soul palace. Getting there as fast as he can is his top priority and once again, if he's so fast, he should be able to just fling himself there with no resistance whatever from these same Quincy which allows him to not have to worry about hurting them in the first place.

Saying True Shikai Icihgo is MFTL requires us to just ignore this scene or extrapolate to the point that it makes Ichigo look like an idiot.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

He's planning to intercept the most powerful enemy there.

And is because of this reason that he does not go around wasting energy, is like you knowing that the final boss is beyond that door but you waste all your power on fodder is stupid

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

He shouldn't be trying to conserve energy when looking at this from an outside perspective yes, but what he should be doing versus what he is doing are two separate things. Ichigo implies through his words he's holding back by warning Candice that she's in danger of being hurt by his attack. The Quincies imply Ichigo is holding back by calling him naive and stating he has his guard down. Kubo is practically telling us Ichigo is holding back, seeing as how literally everyone who speaks on the matter implies so. Just because Ichigo should do something in your opinion doesn't mean that's what he's actually doing. Furthermore, I've presented past evidence to indicate it's in Ichigo's nature to hold back even when he shouldn't. You can argue he should go all out from the start to save Orihime considering he goes on to marry her she must be extremely important to him. You could argue he should've went all out against Aizen the first time he encounters him in Fake Karakura since Aizen is hurting his comrades, but he doesn't and neither did he in Hueco Mundo. So when characters are saying Ichigo is holding back and precedent shows Ichigo will hold back to conserve strength, how can you argue he's not holding back in that portion of the story. Even when he goes to battle Yhwach instead of jumping straight to Bankai and then working on bringing out his Horn of Salvation, he stays in Shikai. An instance of him holding back against this world ending threat. So again why shouldn't we believe he's holding back when the majority of the evidence tells us he is?

 

[USklaverei]

I wouldn't even comment on that, but I decided anyway.

As we can see, when Ichigo arrives in Seireitei, he simply defeated the 4 Fermritters together, none of them managed to see him through. As if that were not enough, Ichigo during the fight oppressed them casually, they could not do anything against Ichigo.

However, in this sweep, Menninas managed to surprise Ichigo, so I don't think it should be used as undone, as we will literally have to ignore previous feats.