Yhwach and Aizen sniping from Galaxies away (Redux)

[Duedate8898]

Yeah I get that, my problem is that the conditions that Squad Zero sits under are not the same conditions that the likes of Ichigo or Aizen or Yhwach do. Ichigo doesn't have to have his bankai sealed away as far as we currently know to deal with such an issue, Aizen doesn't even use a bankai and the only time we've seen him out of his chair, there still wasn't any sign that him releasing his power was a problem. Yhwach in base doesn't seem to have this problem, and we haven't seen All-Mighty or Soul King absorbed in the anime yet, so we don't know if him releasing his true power will have the same impact. If the anime provides reason and changes these things so its made clear that these characters do the same thing, I'd be fine with giving it, but as it currently stands we don't have anything but the manga and light novels to go off of. So unless we're going to stop using TYBW manga in its entirety, and we get explanations as to why or feats of them doing this same level of range, I don't consider Ichigo and Aizen having enough evidence for such range on their profiles.

I don't find that logic particularly strong especially because Ichibe was able to use his bankai without any issue like this, sure he controlled all the black in Soul Society but he's not nearly threatening all four realms in unleashing his power. Which I guess is why he's not in the OP either for such an update.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ichigo doesn't have to have his bankai sealed away as far as we currently know to deal with such an issue

Ichigo literally just unlocked his powers and he keeps a device on him afterwards (the Badge) to limit his powers. So that’s wrong.

Aizen doesn't even use a bankai and the only time we've seen him out of his chair

Aizen’s chair explicitly keeps his power close to his body.

Both of your gripes regarding Ichigo and Aizen are built on falsehoods. In CFYOW, we learn that Ichibe planned on having Ichigo replace Reio, if Reio died. To do such, Ichigo would literally have to be capable of possessing reiatsu that can reach said ranges for him to even be a replacement.

 

[Arcker123]

I would like those scans brought in the OP in that case, but in regards to Aizen's reiatsu, the statement given is that Aizen and Yhwach's reiatsu kept a cap on hell, not that Aizen was spreading his reiatsu throughout all three realms. Him capping hell, isn't really a quantifiable range feat at the moment since we know not from what distance Aizen was maintaining this cap nor when his reiatsu was no longer keeping it up. There's not enough substantial detail there to say his range is actually to the same extent to Yhwach's when he's affecting all three realms.

You're misunderstanding the argument.

He's not saying its a quantifiable range feat, he's just saying the fact that Aizen's reiatsu being compared to Yhwach's means it'd scale to its range.

And in regards to Ichigo being compared to Reio without further context, I can't really take that as evidence that Ichigo's powers are being felt across all three realms. Could you get the scan that points this out?

What. Do you not know that Ichigo is supposed to be a soul king candidate.

It's in the episode where Ichigo enters Izarusando, he literally has to perform Reio's feat of extending his Reiatsu over the cosmology to maintain the realms. He literally has a universal range feat.

In that case, until we get a feat from the likes of Ichigo and Aizen which has them affecting all three realms at once, they shouldn't qualify since they lack these same circumstances that causes for Shutara to have the feat she does. Because at this moment in the anime, we don't even know how Ichigo and Aizen compare to her or Squad Zero as a whole yet. And at this moment we're still using the manga stuff on the profiles at this moment so I don't see it as unreasonable to not approve this until we get corrobating feats from the characters or the scans for what Arc's describing actually proves this range to be true. As it stands, simply being strong as or stronger than Squad Zero isn't good enough evidence to say their range is comparable.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying you can't use the manga, i'm saying comparing the manga to anime exclusive content in the manner you did is illogical. You can use manga scaling, but using the fact they don't react the same in the manga and anime (Which is explained by context anyway) is illogical.

Nobody is going to argue with you about Aizen and Ichigo being above Squad 0. That is already accepted.

 

[Arcker123]

Here's Ichigo blatantly upholding all the world's using his Reiatsu's range, proving he scales to these SK characters feats. Aizen also scales to this. Denying they have feats on this level is false.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Agree FRA

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, I agree with the OP.

 

[Duedate8898]

Ichigo literally just unlocked his powers and he keeps a device on him afterwards (the Badge) to limit his powers. So that’s wrong.

Following your train of logic that Ichigo's badge is restricting his powers, who releases it when he fights Yhwach in Bankai at the end? Are you saying that he's still having his powers restrained by others even up to the Final Fight? That would make no narrative sense when he has to go all out, unless you're arguing that it just inhibits his range. Which even that would still have him not having the same range as the Squad Zero since he always has his badge on him so he'd never possess the range proposed above.

Aizen’s chair explicitly keeps his power close to his body.

I know that, that's why I brought up when he broke out of his chair that he didn't threaten the four realms. We don't have feats from these characters yet in the anime, and in the manga, they don't exist so until we get those feats I don't think we should be updating the profiles.

You're misunderstanding the argument.

He's not saying its a quantifiable range feat, he's just saying the fact that Aizen's reiatsu being compared to Yhwach's means it'd scale to its range.

I'm not misunderstanding the argument, I understand exactly that. What I'm saying is not only does the statement not directly compare Yhwach's and Aizen's reiatsu, it instead just says they could be do the same thing. But even if their reiatsu can do the same thing, to be comparable to one another does not immidetately mean they have the same range with their reiatsu. Saying two things are comparable doesn't mean they're comparable in every regard, which again goes into me bringing up the fact that Ichigo and Aizen don't ever affect all four realms at once like what happens with Squad Zero.

What. Do you not know that Ichigo is supposed to be a soul king candidate.

Hikone and Ginjo are also Soul King Candidates, and in CFYOW Ginjo doesn't threaten all four realms when releasing his bankai's as far as I know and Hikone even at their strongest is weaker than Kenpachi, do let me know if I'm misinformed on this front. And if so, why aren't they included in these proposed upgrades either?

It's in the episode where Ichigo enters Izarusando, he literally has to perform Reio's feat of extending his Reiatsu over the cosmology to maintain the realms. He literally has a universal range feat.

Should've been brought up in the OP in that case, however, just looking at that scene because that's not a range feat! That's durability or even a LS feat, but Ichigo does not encompass or spread his Reiatsu throghout all three realms in that. And even then we don't know how much of any of that he's taken in cause he's wrapped in an incalacable amount of reishi/reiatsu in the scene. That's an assumption you've made and all of sudden are asserting as fact here, cause looking at Ichigo's profile and judging by the fact his range wasn't updated in the last thread, this hasn't been brought up before.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying you can't use the manga, i'm saying comparing the manga to anime exclusive content in the manner you did is illogical. You can use manga scaling, but using the fact they don't react the same in the manga and anime (Which is explained by context anyway) is illogical.

It's illogical to scale ranges between characters when they lack the feats or statements which showcase them having these ranges. Ichigo and Aizen in the anime have done nothing to showcase the range proposed in this thread, in the light novels nothing to showcase this as far as I've seen, and in the manga also lacks such feats or statements.

Range does not simply scale because of power, not everyone can spread their power out to the same degree. For example, Kenpachi who currently scales above Squad Zero for his fight with Hikone, would also suddenly get the same range when he doesn't even have ranged attacks nor is he ever stated or shown to threaten the stability of all three realms.

 

[Nierre]

followinh

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I know that, that's why I brought up when he broke out of his chair that he didn't threaten the four realms. We don't have feats from these characters yet in the anime, and in the manga, they don't exist so until we get those feats I don't think we should be updating the profiles.

The chair isn’t the seal, the seals are his clothes. Furthermore this argument is bunk anyway, since all it would mean is Aizen has better control of his reiatsu than Shutara.

 

[Arcker123]

But even if their reiatsu can do the same thing, to be comparable to one another does not immidetately mean they have the same range with their reiatsu. Saying two things are comparable doesn't mean they're comparable in every regard,

This is stupid. They're Reiatsu are explicitly shown to be compared in scope to each other. Range is one of the tings being compared along with power. This isn't a rebuttal.

which again goes into me bringing up the fact that Ichigo and Aizen don't ever affect all four realms at once like what happens with Squad Zero.

Except you're wrong here and you're shown to be wrong here:

Here's Ichigo blatantly upholding all the world's using his Reiatsu's range, proving he scales to these SK characters feats. Aizen also scales to this. Denying they have feats on this level is false.

You never debunked this.

Hikone and Ginjo are also Soul King Candidates, and in CFYOW Ginjo doesn't threaten all four realms when releasing his bankai's as far as I know and Hikone even at their strongest is weaker than Kenpachi, do let me know if I'm misinformed on this front. And if so, why aren't they included in these proposed upgrades either?

They're soul king candidates for being hybrid beings, not neccesarily power, but that's beside the point, having tier 4 Reiatsu is shown to give you the range to affect all the range. It doesn't have to do that all the time for this argument to hold true, and suggesting such is an AOE fallacy.

Should've been brought up in the OP in that case, however, just looking at that scene because that's not a range feat! That's durability or even a LS feat, but Ichigo does not encompass or spread his Reiatsu throghout all three realms in that. And even then we don't know how much of any of that he's taken in cause he's wrapped in an incalacable amount of reishi/reiatsu in the scene.

Dude.

I'm not doing this with you. You just blatantly don't know the context here and I'm genuinely not interested in being stonewalled by you just not knowing the series. Do you wanna know how the Soul King upholds the worlds. Lemme give you three guesses.

It's Reiatsu.

That's an assumption you've made and all of sudden are asserting as fact here

Again, Reiatsu is how the Reio upholds the world. If you read Bleach you would know that. I have no interest in my basic knowledge of Bleach being called assumptions,

judging by the fact his range wasn't updated in the last thread, this hasn't been brought up before.

This is laughably dishonest.

This is the thread to upgrade that. How do you not see that?

It's illogical to scale ranges between characters when they lack the feats or statements which showcase them having these ranges. Ichigo and Aizen in the anime have done nothing to showcase the range proposed in this thread, in the light novels nothing to showcase this as far as I've seen, and in the manga also lacks such feats or statements.

We're scaling them based on the mechanics of the verse.

Superior power is directly correlated to superior Reiatsu which includes range.

Aizen's Reiatsu is verbatim stated to be above all other Squad 0 in all aspects as he's the war power for Reiatsu, which would include it's range. This is not hard.

Range does not simply scale because of power, not everyone can spread their power out to the same degree.

Lmao.

How much you can spread it is determined by power and Reiatsu quantities. Everyone in tier 4 scales to Senju's reiatsu feat. That is already accepted. I have no interest in debating already accepted conclusions with you.

Range does not simply scale because of power, not everyone can spread their power out to the same degree. For example, Kenpachi who currently scales above Squad Zero for his fight with Hikone, would also suddenly get the same range when he doesn't even have ranged attacks nor is he ever stated or shown to threaten the stability of all three realms.

This can just be explained by Reiatsu control. Asserting Bleach characters must always threaten the realms is an AOE Fallacy. They can have the Reiatsu power to do such, but control it.

Also Kenpachi's Reiatsu not having any direct ranged capabilities doesn't mean his Reiatsu can't be that range. Tf? This is blatantly a dishonest non sequitur.

---

Nobody has any interest about debating Bleach topics with you when you claim that Aizen's chair seals his power. It's just this is an obvious thread that no one has any interest in you stonewalling.

 

[Bastolan27]

I would like those scans brought in the OP in that case, but in regards to Aizen's reiatsu, the statement given is that Aizen and Yhwach's reiatsu kept a cap on hell, not that Aizen was spreading his reiatsu throughout all three realms. Him capping hell, isn't really a quantifiable range feat at the moment since we know not from what distance Aizen was maintaining this cap nor when his reiatsu was no longer keeping it up. There's not enough substantial detail there to say his range is actually to the same extent to Yhwach's when he's affecting all three realms.

And in regards to Ichigo being compared to Reio without further context, I can't really take that as evidence that Ichigo's powers are being felt across all three realms. Could you get the scan that points this out?


In that case, until we get a feat from the likes of Ichigo and Aizen which has them affecting all three realms at once, they shouldn't qualify since they lack these same circumstances that causes for Shutara to have the feat she does. Because at this moment in the anime, we don't even know how Ichigo and Aizen compare to her or Squad Zero as a whole yet. And at this moment we're still using the manga stuff on the profiles at this moment so I don't see it as unreasonable to not approve this until we get corrobating feats from the characters or the scans for what Arc's describing actually proves this range to be true. As it stands, simply being strong as or stronger than Squad Zero isn't good enough evidence to say their range is comparable.

I would like to clarify that for someone to be a Soul King candidate, their reiatsu has to physically hold all the realms together. In the anime episode in which Ichigo is trained by Ichibe, it's stated that Ichigo has to hold the weight of the realms. Don't quote me on that; I'm writing this from memory. I'll let Arc provide the scans.

 

[Arcker123]

I would like to clarify that for someone to be a Soul King candidate, their reiatsu has to physically hold all the realms together. In the anime episode in which Ichigo is trained by Ichibe, it's stated that Ichigo has to hold the weight of the realms. Don't quote me on that; I'm writing this from memory. I'll let Arc provide the scans.

They do that with their Reiatsu.

You can't literally hold them like Duedate is implying. They're connected by Reimyaku, which is a fancy term for the Reiatsu that holds the world's together.

 

[Bastolan27]

By the way, we know that Ichibe at least has stellar and interdimensional range, and he doesn't shake anything with his release. Everyone who we haven't seen shake the realms around that power level can be considered a transcendent being, and the whole point of them is that their reiatsu can't be felt. The Ichigo vs Aizen battle didn't even shake the battlefield, and it was within their range.

 

[Arcker123]

We don't need any elaborate copes tbh.

Duedates argument is just a Blatant AOE fallacy. Characters who are trying to preserve the realms won't always use their full range. That is obvious and is necessary fallacy. It's not a contradiction that characters don't always destroy/affect the realms when they use Reiatsu. You don't always use the full range of your powers, and that's never been accepted as a range anti feat.

"Why doesn't Broly's punches blow up the universe if a weaker Goku's can blow up the universe. Clearly Broly doesn't fully scale to Goku's range ?"

 

[Duedate8898]

We don't need any elaborate copes tbh.

Duedates argument is just a Blatant AOE fallacy. Characters who are trying to preserve the realms won't always use their full range. That is obvious and is necessary fallacy. It's not a contradiction that characters don't always destroy/affect the realms when they use Reiatsu. You don't always use the full range of your powers, and that's never been accepted as a range anti feat.

"Why doesn't Broly's punches blow up the universe if a weaker Goku's can blow up the universe. Clearly Broly doesn't fully scale to Goku's range ?"

If Ichigo isn't using his full range in that scene then why even bring it up? Furthermore, AOE fallacy is for AP not for range. Characters can have the ap for something that they don't have the range to do something I fully accept.

My source of disagreement is that not only does scaling range from shared AP between characters not make sense in this instance, but the lack of any similar feats from these same characters further doesn't support the idea of them having the range proposed by your OP.

All of the responses so far still have failed to convince me, so I'm done here.

 

[Arcker123]

If Ichigo isn't using his full range in that scene then why even bring it up?

I never said that at all there.

Furthermore, AOE fallacy is for AP not for range. Characters can have the ap for something that they don't have the range to do something I fully accept.

The AOE Fallacy can have different conceptions. Like yes it can be for AP, but most people would call what you're doing an AOE fallacy as it does focus o erroneously asserting that a character must always use their max range. Whether or not it's denotatively an AOE fallacy doesn't change the fact your argument is a failure in reasoning.

My source of disagreement is that not only does scaling range from shared AP between characters not make sense in this instance, but the lack of any similar feats from these same characters further doesn't support the idea of them having the range proposed by your OP.

Except we did show you feats of these characters doing these range feats, and then you had no debunk aside from the ridiculously ignorant claim that "Reio using Reiatsu to stabilize the realms is an assumption."

All of the responses so far still have failed to convince me, so I'm done here.

I guess if moral victories counted, you'd be the winner for sure.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

The Ichigo vs Aizen battle didn't even shake the battlefield, and it was within their range.

The difference in power between Aizen and squad 0 is so big that you could say they basically hold no power compared to him. Both are extreme combat geniuses with good reiatsu control, they don’t nuke the battlefield, producing more environmental damage than Ulquiorra’s Lanza which is already country sized, because of it.

 

[Bastolan27]

The difference in power between Aizen and squad 0 is so big that you could say they basically hold no power compared to him. Both are extreme combat geniuses with good reiatsu control, they don’t nuke the battlefield, producing more environmental damage than Ulquiorra’s Lanza which is already country sized, because of it.

I know, I was agreeing with the OP.

 

[AppleLord]

Does this scale to Aizen's Cosmic Awareness range with his profile?

 

[AppleLord]

Here's Ichigo blatantly upholding all the world's using his Reiatsu's range, proving he scales to these SK characters feats. Aizen also scales to this. Denying they have feats on this level is false.

Ultra Instinct + Almighty Ichigo nice.

 

[Aernasilver]

Also reiatsu control is a thing since like 15 years ago when Isshin explained it.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Also reiatsu control is a thing since like 15 years ago when Isshin explained it.

This is a bad argument bro like a terrible one. It would mean that ichigo had better reiatsu control than squad zero

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We'd reason he does abductively... which we can do... don't come in here to be ignorant and just drop a "that's a bad argument"

 

[karo_senpaii]

We'd reason he does abductively... which we can do... don't come in here to be ignorant and just drop a "that's a bad argument"

How would the guy who literally just unlocked his own powers have better reiatsu control than squad zero. Forget ichigo it would also mean zaraki has better reiatsu control than squad zero too.

 

[Aernasilver]

Wtf are you waffling about?

I just said they can control their reiatsu who said anything about having better control?

 

[karo_senpaii]

Wtf are you waffling about?

I just said they can control their reiatsu who said anything about having better control?

You said the rest God tiers can control their reiatsu that's why they don't shake the realms. Well wow if all it takes is good control why does squad zero seal their powers for thousands of years. Why not just control it? I mean it shouldn't be hard right?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Or Squad 0 just aren’t skilled enough to control reiatsu of that scope and the only people who can do it are literal God Tiers. Karo your disbelief that Ichigo can do it due to his young age is pure incredulity.

 

[Aernasilver]

Unless in the next cour the Bleach multiverse collapses Squad Zero can indeed control it at that scope.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Or Squad 0 just aren’t skilled enough to control reiatsu of that scope and the only people who can do it are literal God Tiers. Karo your disbelief that Ichigo can do it due to his young age is pure incredulity.

Except it is not just ichigo. Ginjo, zarak, hikone. I mean if it was just ichigo we could simply say ichibei thought him well and say ichibei can control his too so it make sense. But zaraki.

Sometimes we need to take a step back and pretent to be a neutral party to see some things.

Hikone and zaraki having better reiatsu control than squad zero makes me chuckle. This squad must really have thousands of years skill issue

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Except it is not just ichigo. Ginjo, zarak, hikone. I mean if it was just ichigo we could simply say ichibei thought him well and say ichibei can control his too so it make sense. But zaraki.

Sometimes we need to take a step back and pretent to be a neutral party to see some things.

Hikone and zaraki having better reiatsu control than squad zero makes me chuckle. This squad must really have thousands of years skill issue

You bringing up the names of other God Tiers doesn’t service your point. Your argument of “har har Zaraki and Hikone having that skill makes me chuckle” is textbook argument from incredulity. It’s a moot point. Just because you don’t think younger characters can out skill older characters doesn’t make it true lmao. Don’t act like we are all biased idiots and you’re the only neutral savant. Your argument is pure incredulity.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Y

You bringing up the names of other God Tiers doesn’t service your point. Your argument of “har har Zaraki and Hikone having that skill makes me chuckle” is textbook argument from incredulity. It’s a moot point. Just because you don’t think younger characters can out skill older characters doesn’t make it true lmao. Don’t act like we are all biased idiots and you’re the only neutral savant. Your argument is pure incredulity.

Yo chill man. Why so aggressive? The zaraki own is particularly the issue because zaraki is specifically terrible at suppressing his reatsu sp much so he has to use an eye patch. It's not just about skill issue

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Y

Yo chill man. Why so aggressive? The zaraki own is particularly the issue because zaraki is specifically terrible at suppressing his reatsu sp much so he has to use an eye patch. It's not just about skill issue

I’m not aggressive. Calling out your incredulity is not aggression. If you cannot handle people calling you out for using fallacies then don’t be on the site, it’s not my issue here. You’re also blatantly wrong here, Zaraki displays post Unohana fight he can control his reiatsu because when he’s fighting Gremmy it isn’t until he starts trying harder that people sense his reiatsu. Aka he was controlling his reiatsu to the point where his fellow squad mates couldn’t sense it.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I’m not aggressive. Calling out your incredulity is not aggression. If you cannot handle people calling you out for using fallacies then don’t be on the site, it’s not my issue here. You’re also blatantly wrong here, Zaraki displays post Unohana fight he can control his reiatsu because when he’s fighting Gremmy it isn’t until he starts trying harder that people sense his reiatsu. Aka he was controlling his reiatsu to the point where his fellow squad mates couldn’t sense it.

Why does he still wear the eye patch then?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Why does he still wear the eye patch then?

Multiple reasons:
1) further restriction
2) so he doesn’t have to focus on constantly restricting his power, logically it’d be tedious to have to actively restrict your power even while you sleep
3) Zaraki enjoys being able to test himself by limiting his ability to fight at full power

It’s practical and consistent with his character. That’s why. Or it’s just an iconic part of his design and gimmick that Kubo and Narita didn’t want to remove. Either way it doesn’t matter.

 

[Aernasilver]

It’s part of the Kenpachi drip.

Also correct me if I’m wrong but the eyepatch restricts the reiryoku not reiatsu?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It’s part of the Kenpachi drip.

Also correct me if I’m wrong but the eyepatch restricts the reiryoku not reiatsu?

Pretty sure it’s spiritual pressure. But for the sake of argument it’s not relevant. Cuz either way Kari’s arguments are founded upon misconceptions or incredulity.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Pretty sure it’s spiritual pressure. But for the sake of argument it’s not relevant. Cuz either way Kari’s arguments are founded upon misconceptions or incredulity.

Karo*

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Karo*

Kari = Karo_senpaii
So you’re still wrong

 

[karo_senpaii]

Kari = Karo_senpaii
So you’re still wrong

How bro still beating me on my own name.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Also correct me if I’m wrong but the eyepatch restricts the reiryoku not reiatsu?

there are conflicting sources on this, I plan to do a deep dive later