Fullbring/ Dangai equalization

[Guacamolefletcher]

Dangai was gained through ichigo's mastery of his "fake" zanpakuto, theres no reason for him to lose the mastery. Notice how most of ichigo's forms after dangai have a chain somewhere on his zanpakuto

It’s a little more complicated.

Ichigo in the deicide arc, while fighting Gin was at the level of second fusion Aizen in spiritual power / all that, but he couldn’t utilize it because he hadn’t accepted his power / zangetsu. He then goes on a 3 month training spree, 3 months straight, and accepted his powers / stopped the mental nerf or whatever you wanna call it.

As a result, dangai ichigo. However, when Ichigo went back to regaining his powers in the fullbring arc, he regained them in general / just became a shinigami again. Though they were stronger than what he had previously, it’s only what the badge knows about and it shouldn’t count. After this, old man zangetsu went back to nerfing him anyways

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

It’s a little more complicated.

Ichigo in the deicide arc, while fighting Gin was at the level of second fusion Aizen in spiritual power / all that, but he couldn’t utilize it because he hadn’t accepted his power / zangetsu. He then goes on a 3 month training spree, 3 months straight, and accepted his powers / stopped the mental nerf or whatever you wanna call it.

As a result, dangai ichigo. However, when Ichigo went back to regaining his powers in the fullbring arc, he regained them in general / just became a shinigami again. Though they were stronger than what he had previously, it’s only what the badge knows about and it shouldn’t count. After this, old man zangetsu went back to nerfing him anyways

Fullbring ichigo by default has his hollow reiatsu fused with him, as his fullbring reiatsu fuses with his zanpakuto and changes his body, clothes and other shit. This is why he never uses the mask until he uses horn of salvation. Fullbring ichigo even uses sonido in tybw. Also, old man zangetsu being present at all implies ichigo is still nerfed, as after old man zangetsu decides to release the seal, he dissapears.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I ain’t got time to deal with this rn, so if it isn’t closed and rejected thoroughly by staff by Monday. I’ll come through a rigorously debunk every claim in the OP. Until then I’m unfollowing.

mfw when it's Tuesday

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m working two jobs rn heck off

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I’m working two jobs rn heck off

you must spend 24/7 on the vsbw, to wank your favorite verse to tier 0

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

-

 

[Jo-Smooth]

I agree Fullbring Shinigami Ichigo is narratively implied by the manga and in a roundabout way from the novels to be stronger than anything from his FKT self, especially when we have Ginjo, who didn’t get any stronger being Hikone level. Hikone being someone who’s at the very least weakened Soul King tier bare minimum, but with the novels saying post TYBW Aizen who’s > God Aizen who’s > 4th Fusion Aizen who’s = the weakened soul king needing to take seriously to defeat

I know the wiki for some reason assumes Ginjo got massively stronger in CFYOW but that was never stated or even implied in the novel. In fact he’s just been walking around the Rukon district just drinking and hanging out with Tsukishima and Giriko. The only thing that even remotely implies he got stronger is Kukaku telling the FBs to train Ganju for the 2nd invasion, in which Ginjo didn’t even seem to take seriously.

On the other hand, nah I do think TS Ichigo dunks on Yama and Ichibei in terms of AP. A weakened, injured, exhausted FB Bankai Ichigo was able to blow off Yhwach’s blut and scorch his arm in both the anime and manga. Yhwach’s Base power was already strong enough to control Yama’s Bankai, and after killing Royd and Yama, their power got stacked onto his base form. And while Ichigo was in the losing in, he brute forced his way through Yhwach’s blut which could tank attacks that could one shot your base durability. Yama’s durability is high enough to withstand his Bankai’s AP for an extended period of time despite him not being immune to it, so Yhwach should upscale from that in his Base durability alone, let alone blut which Ichigo bypassed

And True Zan/HoS Ichigo is ridiculously above FB Bankai Ichigo

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I agree Fullbring Shinigami Ichigo is narratively implied by the manga and in a roundabout way from the novels to be stronger than anything from his FKT self, especially when we have Ginjo, who didn’t get any stronger being Hikone level. Hikone being someone who’s at the very least weakened Soul King tier bare minimum, but with the novels saying post TYBW Aizen who’s > God Aizen who’s > 4th Fusion Aizen who’s = the weakened soul king needing to take seriously to defeat

Oh my lord, not the narrative arguments.

We're just gonna forget the fact that fullbring shikai Ichigo is fairly relative to Vollstandig Quilge....

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Oh my lord, not the narrative arguments.

We're just gonna forget the fact that fullbring shikai Ichigo is fairly relative to Vollstandig Quilge....

and? we have no way of comparing the sternritters to characters of previous arcs
the most we have is of yhwach stating ichigo reclaimed the power used to defeat aizen on top of the panel with ginjo on it mind you

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

and? we have no way of comparing the sternritters to characters of previous arcs
the most we have is of yhwach stating ichigo reclaimed the power used to defeat aizen on top of the panel with ginjo on it mind you

Quilge is fairly relative to Bambietta, Bambietta to Sajin, and Sajin is still below Yamamoto

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Quilge is fairly relative to Bambietta, Bambietta to Sajin, and Sajin is still below Yamamoto

you forget that literally every soul reaper went through training for 17 months

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

you forget that literally every soul reaper went through training for 17 months

You forgot the fact that they haven't become beings that surpass shinigami at a physiological level and Kubo himself stated that Yamamoto didn't get any stronger




Kubo blatantly stated that they aren't at Aizen's level, despite them training, and that it'd be strange for someone like Yamamoto to get stronger if he trained during these 17 months despite being alive for over 2 thousand years.



As if just via the story we didn't have enough to put this insane powercliffing people think has happened in the body bag, Kubo himself verbatum disproved it. The only way they could sense Fullbring Ichigo if he was mugetsu / dangai level is if they were at his level of power, which we blatantly know they're not.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

You forgot the fact that they haven't become beings that surpass shinigami at a physiological level and Kubo himself stated that Yamamoto didn't get any stronger




Kubo blatantly stated that they aren't at Aizen's level, despite them training, and that it'd be strange for someone like Yamamoto to get stronger if he trained during these 17 months despite being alive for over 2 thousand years.

They dont have to be exactly at fkt aizen's level for you to know that they got a major power boost

As if just via the story we didn't have enough to put this insane powercliffing people think has happened in the body bag, Kubo himself verbatum disproved it. The only way they could sense Fullbring Ichigo if he was mugetsu / dangai level is if they were at his level of power, which we blatantly know they're not.

kubo has very obviously thrown that transcendence shit in the,trash after the fkt arc ( why can people sense a much stronger aizen's reiatsu?)

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

kubo has very obviously thrown that transcendence shit in the,trash after the fkt arc ( why can people sense a much stronger aizen's reiatsu?)

Lmao, blatantly not true. People still can't sense Aizen in the TYBW...

They dont have to be exactly at fkt aizen's level for you to know that they got a major power boost

People on FKT Aizen's level couldn't senes Hogyoku Aizen. How are they gonna be able to sense a version of Ichigo > Mugetsu???

At this point, you're grasping at straws dude. I already showed you evidence that they CAN'T be relative to dangai / mugetsu Ichigo, which is what they WOULD be if Dangai / Mugetsu Ichigo < Fullbring via blatant statements. Your scaling verbatum contradicts the WOG from Kubo and a lot of stuff.

in conclusion : it makes no ******* sense that ts ichigo is billions of times stronger than Bankai yamamoto and Ichibe in ap.

Also, bruh, this is a complete non-sequitur

They dont have to be exactly at fkt aizen's level for you to know that they got a major power boost

Part of the OP is to say that it doesn't make sense for True Shikai Ichigo to be that far above Ichibei and Yamamoto, yet I've provided direct evidence against Yamamoto getting stronger since FKT. You can't get past that fact, and he's blatantly the strongest captain at the start of the TYBW.

Second Fusion Aizen > Bankai Yamamoto still.


To sum it up:
Fullbring < Dangai: Consistent, creates no issues
Fullbring > Dangai: Inconsistent with WOG and direct scaling statements, assumes continually established things are retconned. Thread should be closed FRA

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Oh my lord, not the narrative arguments.

We're just gonna forget the fact that fullbring shikai Ichigo is fairly relative to Vollstandig Quilge....

Vollstandig Quilge who scales to basically no one similar besides being weaker than the Elites, similar to Ulquiorra who scales to nobody but Ichigo and being weaker than the Espada above him?

On top of the fact that Ichigo was being extremely casual on top of being caught off guard by a guy he was casually slapping around getting a beyond Letzt Stil level amp and still being rather unbothered. The only thing that made Quilge look really good was Quilge using Blut to tank a Getsuga, with it later being shown that Blut can tank attacks that can one shot your normal durability

And we have FB Bankai Ichigo absolutely destroying Amped Quilge who was fighting on a level where a stronger Urahara than FKT said he can’t intervene in, when a weaker version of himself could damage Chrysalis Aizen’s durability. And with further context Urahara is able to fight Askin who’s a Quincy Elite

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Vollstandig Quilge who scales to basically no one similar besides being weaker than the Elites, similar to Ulquiorra who scales to nobody but Ichigo and being weaker than the Espada above him?

sorry, but no. In CFYOW he's compared to Bambietta

On top of the fact that Ichigo was being extremely casual on top of being caught off guard by a guy he was casually slapping around getting a beyond Letzt Stil level amp and still being rather unbothered. The only thing that made Quilge look really good was Quilge using Blut to tank a Getsuga, with it later being shown that Blut can tank attacks that can one shot your normal durability

that's fine, it's a 5-10x durability boost

And we have FB Bankai Ichigo absolutely destroying Amped Quilge who was fighting on a level where a stronger Urahara than FKT said he can’t intervene in, when a weaker version of himself could damage Chrysalis Aizen’s durability. And with further context Urahara is able to fight Askin who’s a Quincy Elite

Also, tf? You realize that Chrysalis Aizen's shell isn't his durability? Reread the FKT revisions

Also, the TYBW revisions are probably gonna change some of that stuff. Like, Yama right now isn't 5-B, so just wait

 

[YukaSama4]

Vollstandig Quilge who scales to basically no one similar besides being weaker than the Elites, similar to Ulquiorra who scales to nobody but Ichigo and being weaker than the Espada above him?

That's enough, Shunsui scales to the elites and he's much much weaker than Hogyoku Aizen

And we have FB Bankai Ichigo absolutely destroying Amped Quilge who was fighting on a level where a stronger Urahara than FKT said he can’t intervene in, when a weaker version of himself could damage Chrysalis Aizen’s durability. And with further context Urahara is able to fight Askin who’s a Quincy Elite

That's just how Kisuke acts, he wanted to get more info from Akon, after that he literally intervened and one shotted Quilge (yes Quilge put his defenses down but Kisuke was quick enough to react before Quilge makes an attack meaning his attack activation is much faster than Quilge even with Blut)


There is literally nothing that supports the fullbring scaling, everything contradicts it, Yama in early Tybw was stated to be far stronger than the captains, Yhwach said nobody could control his power except himself, yet Kubo said he wasn't stronger than FKT Yamamoto, who was much weaker than Hogyoku Aizen who's weaker than Dangai Ichigo, if Kubo himself doesn't believe in this weird scaling I don't know why people still pushing for it in 2023

 

[YukaSama4]

The Shell was just a part of the Hogyoku's power that was created to cover Aizen until he finishes his evolution, it doesn't scale to Aizen, Kisuke and Isshin literally said they weren't even close to Aizen's level at that point

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

There is literally nothing that supports the fullbring scaling, everything contradicts it, Yama in early Tybw was stated to be far stronger than the captains, Yhwach said nobody could control his power except himself, yet Kubo said he wasn't stronger than FKT Yamamoto, who was much weaker than Hogyoku Aizen who's weaker than Dangai Ichigo, if Kubo himself doesn't believe in this weird scaling I don't know why people still pushing for it in 2023

Agree 100%. We get blatant WOG that directly contradicts this even being a possibility. Also Kubo himself said that they've trained, but they aren't near Aizen's level. Even taking this to the max wank, and interpreting it as Kubo saying that they'd struggle with only monster Aizen, it still refutes the whole argument, since dangai Ichigo is stronger than monster Aizen

 

[Jo-Smooth]

sorry, but no. In CFYOW he's compared to Bambietta


that's fine, it's a 5-10x durability boost


Also, tf? You realize that Chrysalis Aizen's shell isn't his durability? Reread the FKT revisions

Also, the TYBW revisions are probably gonna change some of that stuff. Like, Yama right now isn't 5-B, so just wait

Other way around. The statement was that Bambi, who was spamming her Schrift during the moment of the comparison is maybe as strong as Quilge. A comparison made by one of the 2 Arrancar Quincy chicks who fought an extremely casual Base Quilge and we’re basically one shotted. Base Quilge only started trying against Ichigo when he got outclassed, way after they were taken out and unconscious.

so at best we have Bambi using her somewhat nerfed Schrift at full blast being possibly as strong as a casual Quilge who used the power he showed against Menoly and Loly.

As for Blut, again, that’s the only thing that made Quilge look superior to Ichigo. Other than that, Ichigo who was fighting Base Quilge casually and wasn’t taking him seriously much at all until that first Getsuga was still keeping up just fine. Even when Quilge tried to blitz him with high speed movement on top of a massive power amp, Ichigo was fine

TYBW revisions change the scaling on the wiki, but we already have a good idea of the actual in verse scaling. Though going by profiles. Yama scaling to 5-B would just upscale FB Bankai Ichigo.

Since Yhwach would have to be 5-B in order to control Yama’s Bankai’s raw power , then he killed and absorbed Royd who’s above Shikai Yama who’d be above SAFWY, Kenny and Azashiro, then he killed and absorbed Shikai Yama.

So Yhwach’s own 5-B stats relative to Bankai Yama + Royd and Yama’s 5-B stats comparable to Shikai Yama, and then Blut being superior to your standard AP/Dura.

Ichigo was able to blow off this Yhwach’s blut and scorch his arm. That and Ichigo’s blut made Yhwach in the manga say he’s gonna use his full power to beat Ichigo

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Agree 100%. We get blatant WOG that directly contradicts this even being a possibility. Also Kubo himself said that they've trained, but they aren't near Aizen's level. Even taking this to the max wank, and interpreting it as Kubo saying that they'd struggle with only monster Aizen, it still refutes the whole argument, since dangai Ichigo is stronger than monster Aizen

Monster Aizen reached the same tier of power as Dangai Ichigo, being able to scorch his arm. Which prompted Ichigo to use the FGT to completely overwhelm Aizen beyond the Hogyoku’s evolution (which didn’t end up working)

As for the plausibility of the Gotei being compared to this Aizen or Shinigami Aizen…we know almost for certain it’s not Shinigami Aizen, since Urahara is considered to be equal to Shini Aizen by the man himself, and while he’s not apart of the Gotei officially, there’s a handful of people stronger than that in the Gotei during the first invasion and a bit more by the end of the war. And Yama is stronger than Shinigami Aizen as well.

And the Gotei in less than the 18 months between FKT and the TYBW were able to 1.) Analyze Ichigo’s power via the combat pass. With the combat pass taking in the reiatsu from both Dangai and FGT Ichigo (explicitly shown in the anime as well). Which is very likely the reason why Urahara in the Death Saves the Strawberry novel tells Rukia that in order to restore Ichigo’s power to the exact level it was at before he lost it, they’d have to input the exact same amount of energy into the blade, which is what the post FKT arc/timeskip training Gotei did. As well as people like Urahara, Isshin etc.

This isn’t taking into account Ichigo’s Fullbring which itself was stronger than his Striped Mask form in FKT already, which ended up somewhat stacking with his shinigami power

More supporting evidence is the Gotei, specifically Squad 12 being able to develop technology that TYBW Aizen who’s even stronger than God Aizen couldn’t outright nullify, negate or destroy despite his Reiatsu being at full power yet only having limited range.

So the Gotei definitely understands these Dangai and beyond levels of power post Timeskip, even if we say they’re not that strong as yet. On top of none of them scaling to FB Bankai Ichigo until maybe some of the people that fought the Quincy Elites, with Jugram being stated to be the strongest enemy ever up until that point and Gerard later on being stated to be stronger than him etc

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Monster Aizen reached the same tier of power as Dangai Ichigo, being able to scorch his arm. Which prompted Ichigo to use the FGT to completely overwhelm Aizen beyond the Hogyoku’s evolution (which didn’t end up working)

bro, this is some basics type shit dawg. that was offguard, when dangai Ichigo wasn't really trying at all. Ichigo proceeded to slap away his 6 fragor

As for the plausibility of the Gotei being compared to this Aizen or Shinigami Aizen…we know almost for certain it’s not Shinigami Aizen, since Urahara is considered to be equal to Shini Aizen by the man himself, and while he’s not apart of the Gotei officially, there’s a handful of people stronger than that in the Gotei during the first invasion and a bit more by the end of the war. And Yama is stronger than Shinigami Aizen as well.

read the actual quote. it's talking about the gotei 13 in general. Though Yama > Aizen in AP, Aizen isn't Kenpachi, he's got Kyoka Suygetsu. Who are stronger than that in the gotei dawg?

And the Gotei in less than the 18 months between FKT and the TYBW were able to 1.) Analyze Ichigo’s power via the combat pass. With the combat pass taking in the reiatsu from both Dangai and FGT Ichigo (explicitly shown in the anime as well). Which is very likely the reason why Urahara in the Death Saves the Strawberry novel tells Rukia that in order to restore Ichigo’s power to the exact level it was at before he lost it, they’d have to input the exact same amount of energy into the blade, which is what the post FKT arc/timeskip training Gotei did. As well as people like Urahara, Isshin etc.

Again, there's no proof Ichigo had the combat pass with him while in the dangai nor when he did the FGT.

This isn’t taking into account Ichigo’s Fullbring which itself was stronger than his Striped Mask form in FKT already, which ended up somewhat stacking with his shinigami power

no, his fullbring form is only above bankai, not striped mask

More supporting evidence is the Gotei, specifically Squad 12 being able to develop technology that TYBW Aizen who’s even stronger than God Aizen couldn’t outright nullify, negate or destroy despite his Reiatsu being at full power yet only having limited range.

bruh moment, that blatantly doesn't mean they scale to him in power. They're literally scientists figurign out ways to counter that. TYBW Aizen deliberately outscales them. This is the dumbest argument I've seen yet, since it's specifically restraints that aren't overpowering Aizen or doing something crazy like what you're claiming.

So the Gotei definitely understands these Dangai and beyond levels of power post Timeskip, even if we say they’re not that strong as yet. On top of none of them scaling to FB Bankai Ichigo until maybe some of the people that fought the Quincy Elites, with Jugram being stated to be the strongest enemy ever up until that point and Gerard later on being stated to be stronger than him etc

OMFG, not that stupid hype for Jugram that's written by the editors, provably untrue (as Jugram < Almighty Yhwach), and removed from any actual important releases of the manga. Blud can't handle Bankai Yama's power.

Bottom line, and a fact you can't get across:
Yama = static in power, implied heavily by the series, stated WOG.
CFYOW Yoruichi, Byakuya, Tokinada, and Shunsui < Base Aizen and Yama's Shikai
Yama > everyone in the gotei, except for Kenpachi in CFYOW, by a lot. His shikai alone >>> Bankai Byakuya and people who get massive amps in the TYBW arc.

From what we know of second, third, fourth, Monster Aizen, Dangai Ichigo, and Mugetsu, there is a substantial gap between even the strongest in the gotei and the weakest I've mentioned here. Multiply Shikai Aizen by 20, and it's still not enough to get dangai Ichigo.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

More supporting evidence is the Gotei, specifically Squad 12 being able to develop technology that TYBW Aizen who’s even stronger than God Aizen couldn’t outright nullify, negate or destroy despite his Reiatsu being at full power yet only having limited range.

All imma say is, Kubo himself proved y’all wrong in the recent episode of the TYBW, lmaooo. Even though the TYBW anime made FB Bankai Ichigo > Bankai Yamamoto with the rage amp, that dude still hasn’t surpassed shinigami after getting his true shikai

 

[Jo-Smooth]

bro, this is some basics type shit dawg. that was offguard, when dangai Ichigo wasn't really trying at all. Ichigo proceeded to slap away his 6 fragor


read the actual quote. it's talking about the gotei 13 in general. Though Yama > Aizen in AP, Aizen isn't Kenpachi, he's got Kyoka Suygetsu. Who are stronger than that in the gotei dawg?


Again, there's no proof Ichigo had the combat pass with him while in the dangai nor when he did the FGT.


no, his fullbring form is only above bankai, not striped mask


bruh moment, that blatantly doesn't mean they scale to him in power. They're literally scientists figurign out ways to counter that. TYBW Aizen deliberately outscales them. This is the dumbest argument I've seen yet, since it's specifically restraints that aren't overpowering Aizen or doing something crazy like what you're claiming.


OMFG, not that stupid hype for Jugram that's written by the editors, provably untrue (as Jugram < Almighty Yhwach), and removed from any actual important releases of the manga. Blud can't handle Bankai Yama's power.

Bottom line, and a fact you can't get across:
Yama = static in power, implied heavily by the series, stated WOG.
CFYOW Yoruichi, Byakuya, Tokinada, and Shunsui < Base Aizen and Yama's Shikai
Yama > everyone in the gotei, except for Kenpachi in CFYOW, by a lot. His shikai alone >>> Bankai Byakuya and people who get massive amps in the TYBW arc.

From what we know of second, third, fourth, Monster Aizen, Dangai Ichigo, and Mugetsu, there is a substantial gap between even the strongest in the gotei and the weakest I've mentioned here. Multiply Shikai Aizen by 20, and it's still not enough to get dangai Ichigo.

Idk how to quote in specific sections unfortunately

1.) It most definitely wasn’t off guard, Ichigo was literally staring at him charge up and launch the Fragor. Ichigo swatting away Ultra Fragor means he scales above Aizen still, but Aizen closed the gap enough to the point where he could damage Ichigo

2.) Are you asking who’s relative to or stronger than Shinigami Aizen? In that case, anyone relative to Urahara or anyone relative to Complete Fullbring Ichigo, who above Striped Mask Ichigo who’s in the same realm of power as Shinigami Aizen (though he downscales) and Yama not counting Ryujin Jakka’s AP (As that specifically is what put Yama above Aizen)

3.) Wym there’s no proof? You think Ichigo suddenly just put it down randomly off screen at some point? That and as supporting evidence, in the anime, the exact scene where Ginjo explains the badge monitors and regulates Ichigo’s energy, it shows Ichigo going into FGT. And other scenes during the anime show Dangai and FGT Ichigo when recalling the badge remembers his past battles.

4.) Why would Ginjo and Tsukishima only be talking about Ichigo’s Bankai? For one, Ginjo knows Ichigo has hollowfication, which is why he brought up that the fullbringers had hollow powers they wanted to get rid of. For Ichigo to sympathize with that. Second, Tsukishima is even aware of up to Dangai Ichigo in both the anime and manga when he ‘helped Ichigo defeat Aizen’. And we know for Tsukishima, it’s not just memory implantation, but from his perspective the events actually happened.

And finally, Bankai Ichigo even in FKT was weaker than the upper tiers of Shinigami. Ginjo’s entire goal was to use Ichigo’s power to wipe out the Gotei 13. With the context of Striped Mask Ichigo, Shinigami Aizen, Shikai Yama etc’s power being able to be sensed, Ginjo and Tsukishima knowing about Ichigo’s hollowfication, at least being aware of Dangai even if we argue they don’t know it’s strength etc, you’d have to infer than Ginjo and Tsukishima are idiots for them to refer to Ichigo regaining and surpassing his original powers and going beyond/transcending Shinigami meaning just his Bankai. Especially when Fullbring encompasses hollow powers already. The Fullbring is the reason why FB Shini Ichigo doesn’t hollow-fy anymore anyways

5.) Not inherently it doesn’t, but given the context of even Chrysalis Aizen’s power being completely foreign and unable to be understood by them to the point Aizen compared it to the difference between 2-D and 3-D beings, to them being able to not just understand but to be able to actively restrain the power of TYBW Aizen who surpassed God Aizen, and to be able to understand Ichigo’s power in the Death Saves the Strawberry novel and the Fullbring Arc in order to restore his power to the exact level it was at before…ontop of the Gotei training to defeat threats on that level and sending a hit squad of a few Captain level Shinigami to kill the man that defeated Aizen after they restored his powers back and Ginjo if they happened to work together….yea, there’s a lot of supporting evidence.

6.) The narration text is removed in the volume release versions of all jump manga, not just Bleach. Doesn’t make why they say any less valid. As well as every statement made in the TYBW regarding the strongest Quincy always without exception excludes Yhwach. As for the Yama, for 1, the statement was made during the first invasion where there were more Quincy alive for Jugram’s power to be distributed to and boost up. By the time of the statement, most of the others were either dead or effectively had their power redistributed to the Elites via the Holy Selection. And 2, the statement was made when Jugram had the Almighty and was specifically referring to Almighty Jugram, not his normal state. Though you could argue he’s above Yama in all but raw AP regardless due to Yama’s physicals while bloodlusted and rage amped scaling to Royd who’s not even top 7 Sternritter, but that’s neither here nor there.

7.) A key thing people miss about the CFYOW statement is which versions of said characters it was referring to. Aside from characters like Yoruichi and Urahara already being on Shinigami Aizen level back in FKT as stated by Aizen himself in Urahara’s case and Yama’s physical stats and Shikai AP being far surpassed by many Shinigami in the second invasion due to scaling ridiculously above Royd who could easily take bloodlusted Shikai Yama’s AP. (with his Zanpakuto’s AP being what both Aizen and Yhwach noted was most dangerous about Yama)

The statement was comparing Base/Shikai Tokinada to Base Yoruichi and Base/Shikai Byakuya. Yoruichi has several tiers of Shunko which are beyond Bankai level amps, and Byakuya’s Bankai already increases stats (of his zanpakuto, not his body per say though his reiatsu is what’s powering those stat amps). On top of Byakuya’s Bankai most likely being at the maximum 10x boost or beyond due to 0 Squad training.

Shunko Yoruichi and Bankai Byakuya would far surpass Shikai Tokinada, who scales to their Base/Shikai reiatsu levels.

At best you could argue Bankai Yama’s AP > most everyone in the Gotei, but you’d be hard pressed to argue that his physicals stats and Shikai AP do, due to being relative to Shinigami Aizen and Royd who’ve been far surpassed in the manga.

You could even argue Yama’s most dangerous abilities like East and West are through existence erasure hax and not raw AP but that’s another can of worms.

What we know for a fact based on the manga/anime and data books is that the Gotei has people stronger than Shini Aizen. But also that ‘Aizen’ hasn’t been surpassed yet. Unless we assume they’re talking about an arbitrary form of Aizen in between Shini and Final, they’re most likely referring to his most recent form at that time. So they have people arbitrarily above Shini but below God Aizen

It doesn’t matter too much for scaling because literally nobody in the Gotei scales to Fullbring Bankai Ichigo up until either maybe the last act of the TYBW or CFYOW (Who also has Ginjo, who canonically didn’t get any stronger and had just been wandering around the Rukon district aimlessly), relative to or above Hikone. Wiki profiles here say he randomly got stronger to accommodates the sites specific scaling consistency, and say he only reaches Hikone levels or above when rage amped, but the problem in actual context of the story, he’s the same strength as he was in the FB Arc, is on that Hikone level in Bankai, and then when rage amped he far surpassed that and hits True Bankai Ichigo GT levels of AP.

FB Bankai Ichigo scales to all but Rage Amped Ginjo as they were pretty damn evenly matched before Ginjo got his resolve shaken and smoked

 

[Jo-Smooth]

All imma say is, Kubo himself proved y’all wrong in the recent episode of the TYBW, lmaooo. Even though the TYBW anime made FB Bankai Ichigo > Bankai Yamamoto with the rage amp, that dude still hasn’t surpassed shinigami after getting his true shikai

Even in the manga, Ichigo still blew off Yhwach’s blut and scorched his arm, so he’s stronger than Yama in both anime and manga.

And as for Ichigo not surpassing Shinigami, there’s 2 things. In the manga we first saw Ichigo after all of this off screen training, so it’s possible him just obtaining his True Zan didn’t push him to a level beyond his previous form inherently. We also have to see if Ichibei is talking literal power wise.

Either way, we’ll have to wait and see what they mean for sure in the upcoming episodes and then wait a long while to see if the reword and or repanel the scene where Yhwach states Ichigo regained the ‘elevated power he used to defeat Aizen’ (which is very specifically talking about his raw strength and not just Shinigami powers in general, elevated strength being the key term), while showing a panel of Ginjo referring to the FB Arc.

Viz Translation

Fan translation pretty much says the same thing in regards to the line about power but mistakenly says he regained it by killing the Soul King

Fan Translation

Apparently, the Japanese version says this

Japanese Translation

高めたその力は藍染惣右介を倒す為に

そして藍染惣右介を倒し失った力を

再び取り戻したのは

私の眼前で霊王の命を断つ為だったのだ

The power you raised up to take down Aizen Sosuke...

And that the power that you lost to defeat him...

You've regained it...

Only to cut down the life of the Soul King right before my eyes!


I admit idk Japanese so I can’t say 100% that the translation is Gucci, but if it is, again Yhwach specifically refers to ‘the power that you lost to defeat him’. So both translations specifically referring to Dangai or FGT Ichigo’s specific level of power and not his Shinigami powers in general

So unless we say Ichibei’s line from the anime retcons this entirely, which it could possibly do (though I’m not convinced), I’m standing by it

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Even in the manga, Ichigo still blew off Yhwach’s blut and scorched his arm, so he’s stronger than Yama in both anime and manga.

Nope, only with a rage amp he can do this, dude

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Nope, only with a rage amp he can do this, dude

1.) Yama was also rage amped as well as bloodlusted. In fact, Yama should (not confirmed, but should) have more of a rage amp than Ichigo, considering the fact that he was going through the same thing Ichigo was going through on top of having his best friend and right hand man killed and disrespected. As well as raging out mid fight against Royd saying he'll make Yhwach pay for each and every shinigami that was killed etc.

2.) Ichigo's rage amp is countered by the fact that he was injured, exhausted and weakened from taking explosions from Getsuga's going off in his face. Getsuga's being an attack that's stronger than Ichigo's conventional durability. He was so weakened that Yhwach even noted it. In the manga continuity, Yhwach stated he'd use his full power to blow through Ichigo's blut and beat him.

Yama was fully healthy when he rage amped against Royd. Also ignoring the fact that Yhwach absorbed Royd who somewhat downscales from Rage Amped Yama, and then Yama himself on top of his Base already being strong enough to control Yama's Bankai.

So Yhwach who's Bankai Yama tier on his own absorbed Royd and Yama after they died and still figured he needed to use his full power to decisively beat weakened rage amped ichigo's blut. And potentially contend with his AP, which blew away this mega amped Yhwach's own blut

It would be hard to argue Yama above Ichigo even if Yama himself wasn't rage amped due to how stacked Yhwach is with amps. But the fact that Yhwach is rage amped too cancels that out entirely

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

It would be hard to argue Yama above Ichigo even if Yama himself wasn't rage amped due to how stacked Yhwach is with amps. But the fact that Yhwach is rage amped too cancels that out entirely

My brother in Reiō, Ichigo’s rage amp is provably that big of an amp. Base fullbring shikai Ichigo clashed with base Quilge, and Quilge isn’t above Yama’s Bankai. He can’t handle the heat… literally. CFYOW confirms base Quilge isn’t anything special, and is more like comparable to Bambietta…

Rage amps don’t “cancel each other out” like that, especially not with individuals like Ichigo, who gets massive rage amps and shit like that. Keep in mind, it’s not just that he’s rage amped, he also literally awakened his Quincy power. You can’t equate Yama’s “rage amp” to Ichigo’s “rage amp,” even if we grant you he did have one… for some reason. At this point, it’s been disproven beyond a reasonable doubt, infinitely over

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Thread can frankly be closed. No more discourse needs to be had, staff accepted the newer thread.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

My brother in Reiō, Ichigo’s rage amp is provably that big of an amp. Base fullbring shikai Ichigo clashed with base Quilge, and Quilge isn’t above Yama’s Bankai. He can’t handle the heat… literally. CFYOW confirms base Quilge isn’t anything special, and is more like comparable to Bambietta…

Rage amps don’t “cancel each other out” like that, especially not with individuals like Ichigo, who gets massive rage amps and shit like that. Keep in mind, it’s not just that he’s rage amped, he also literally awakened his Quincy power. You can’t equate Yama’s “rage amp” to Ichigo’s “rage amp,” even if we grant you he did have one… for some reason. At this point, it’s been disproven beyond a reasonable doubt, infinitely over

1.) Fullbring Shikai Ichigo didn’t ‘clash’ with Base Quilge, he clashed with Vollstandig Quilge and was relatively even with him for all but Ichigo’s AP vs Quilge’s Blut amped durability.

2.) As for the CFYOW statement, I already went over that. Menoly and Loly were KO’d before even the Tres Bestias showed up. And Quilge was definitely holding back against them as he wanted them alive to be recruited.

So Menoly or Loly (forgot which one) was comparing a holding back Base Quilge to Bambietta who was spamming the Explode, an AP based ability. This speaks nothing to the level of power Quilge used after they were KO’d as they weren’t there.

And again, similar to R2 Ulq, Quilge’s scaling is somewhat isolated after absorbing Ayon, so you can’t use Quilge as justification to downscale Ichigo.

3.) When has Ichigo been shown to get massive rage amps? Genuine question. Only times I remember Ichigo raging out aside from vs Yhwach is A.) when Ulq said he’s the reason why Orihime is in Hueco Mundo. And even calling that raging out is a stretch B.) Against Tsukishima which showed no signs of Ichigo getting a massive amp, especially when Tsukishima was off guard and ‘only’ expecting Ichigo to be as strong as his FKT self

4.) Ichigo awakening his Quincy power via Blut Vene, which is purely a durability amp. He wasn’t using Arterie, so Ichigo’s AP was still at its standard levels rage amp aside. Both Ichigo and Yama’s rage amps are unquantifiable amps to their standard power. Only difference is, Yama was at full power (missing arm aside) when he had his rage amp, Ichigo was notably in an injured and weakened state to the point where Yhwach called him out on it


You also ignored the fact that Ichigo was injured and weakened, as well as the fact that Yhwach absorbed Yama himself and Royd who scales to but below Yama. If you believe FB Bankai Ichigo is weaker than Bankai Yama, you’d then have to assume that Ichigo’s rage amp gives him an amp that boosts him from a weakened state (when his healthy state is weaker than Yama by your scaling) to nearly 3x Bankai Yama’s level with no evidence of his rage amps ever boosting him that much in terms of his raw stats, not counting blut, which made Yhwach in the manga say he was going to use his full power to bypass.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

All of that aside there’s 3 more things.

1.) The entire Gotei 13 including Yama himself, as well as people like Isshin, Yoruichi, and Urahara etc (who scale to Shinigami Aizen, who Yama also scales to for all but his Zanpakuto’s offensive ability which scales above Aizen) put their power into the Blade to restore Ichigo’s power. With Urahara in the Death Saves the Strawberry novel confirming that the goal was to get Ichigo’s power back to the level it was at before, knowing full well that he beat Aizen who was far above Yama. Then that level of power is amped by Ichigo’s Fullbring which amps it beyond what the Gotei even intended. Then Ichigo has Bankai on top of that. And then his Bankai is also hollow amped which boosts it even further.

2.) Yhwach only decided to attack the SS because Ichigo was occupied in Hueco Mundo. Unlike Royd, who Yhwach expected to be strong enough to fight Bankai Yama as long as he didn’t try to steal the Bankai, Yhwach never expected Quilge to do anything other than stall Ichigo with the Jail. Yhwach basically considered Yama a non threat to him in the grand scheme of the first invasion to the point where he’s sending a henchman who’s not even top 7 Sternritter to stall him in an actual fight while Yhwach himself didn’t want to invade when Ichigo was around and only expected Quilge to stall Ichigo with hax

3.) After sensing Bankai Yama’s power and sensing that he was killed by Yhwach, the Gotei members who sensed a weakened Ichigo enter the Soul Society believed that he could save them and defeat the person who beat Yama.

The Sternritter didn’t have much of a reaction at all to Yama activating his Bankai, but when weakened Ichigo shows up, they’re visibly shocked.

All before Ichigo is rage amped.

Both scaling wise and narratively, FB Shinigami Ichigo is above Yama

 

[Excellence616]

@Arc7Kuroi please end this debate so i can request for this to be closed.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

@Arc7Kuroi please end this debate so i can request for this to be closed.

The debate already concluded, points are just being regurgitated

 

[Excellence616]

The debate already concluded, points are just being regurgitated

Okay then I will request for closing