Attempting to upgrade the game Sonic cosmology

[JJSliderman]

Yes, the fourth dimensional space, Greenshifter brought it up.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Yes, the fourth dimensional space, Greenshifter brought it up.

I personally think that the fourth dimensional space is the hypertimeline that maintains the dreams in Maginaryworld, it even has relation with it, since time is 4D

 

[JJSliderman]

That’s what I was thinking initially. It’s either a four spatial dimensions and a time component, or the standard three dimensions+time.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Okay, I understand the reason why cyberspace is 5D, let me see if i am right:

Dreams: Low 2-C

Cyberspace contains multiple dreams as a hypertimeline so it would be 5D

Cyberspace itself is a dream, so the Maginaryworld would be 6D, right?

Just one thing, a space containing infinite 2-A does not make that space Low 1-C.

Simply "containing" is not enough.

It has to act as a higher timeline/temporal dimension for these lower space-time continuums, just as these smaller space-time continuums have to be independent.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Just one thing, a space containing infinite 2-A does not make that space Low 1-C.

Simply "containing" is not enough.

It has to act as a higher timeline/temporal dimension for these lower space-time continuums, just as these smaller space-time continuums have to be independent.

I know

 

[JJSliderman]

Just one thing, a space containing infinite 2-A does not make that space Low 1-C.

Simply "containing" is not enough.

It has to act as a higher timeline/temporal dimension for these lower space-time continuums, just as these smaller space-time continuums have to be independent.

There is an established hierarchy for both Maginaryworld and Cyberspace.

For Cyberspace, Eggman confirms the digital space is superior and more advanced compared to his own spaces, and the realm in a dream form is a greater and more spacious dream than the individual dreams of the Ancients, and is potentially infinitely above any of them in size. The flow of time of Cyberspace also supersedes that of any of the individual dreams, as only the flow of time of the whole realm is considered as important by anyone.

Sonic’s world treats the Arabian Nights, an infinite size space with its own timeline, as a fictional story controlled by the text of the story within Sonic’s world, making an embedded timeline.

For Maginaryworld, the dream of Cyberspace is infinitesimal in comparison to the totality of 4-D space, all dreams are just small parts of the greater dream of 4th dimension space created by Illumina, the progenitor of all dreams, and the timeline of Maginaryworld is greater and more important than that of any dream, because the dreams depend on Maginaryworld to continue existing.

 

[Lenyo456]

They constantly treat the Arabian Nights as a lower realm, or a story, and the actions of the characters in the story are completely at the mercy of the text of the story. Unlike Camelot, where Sonic just got warped there by a portal.

By the way, a question, how does R>F in Arabian nights work? The characters that enter turn into a smaller dimension, (In this case Sonic, as he was affected by things in it) or all the characters there were 5-D and it's just space that is 4-D

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Sonic’s world treats the Arabian Nights, an infinite size space with its own timeline, as a fictional story controlled by the text of the story within Sonic’s world, making an embedded timeline.

Sonic entering into the Arabians Nights would just count as immersion

"Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc"

 

[Lenyo456]

Don't think it's immersion since the "Sonic’s world treats the Arabian Nights, an infinite size space with its own timeline, as a fictional story controlled by the text of the story within Sonic’s world, making an embedded timeline." whole thing

 

[JJSliderman]

Either way the Sonic world’s time component is far greater than that of the Arabian Nights by sheer size.

 

[JJSliderman]

By the way, a question, how does R>F in Arabian nights work? The characters that enter turn into a smaller dimension, (In this case Sonic, as he was affected by things in it) or all the characters there were 5-D and it's just space that is 4-D

Since Shahra has to take Sonic into the book and making him a character in the story, think he just went onto the same dimensionality level as everyone else.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Don't think it's immersion since the "Sonic’s world treats the Arabian Nights, an infinite size space with its own timeline, as a fictional story controlled by the text of the story within Sonic’s world, making an embedded timeline." whole thing

So everyone in Sonic's world must be 4-D/5-D if everyone in that world treats this place as fiction.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

So everyone in Sonic's world must be 4-D/5-D if everyone in that world treats this place as fiction.

Low Complex base Sonic is based, although it´s wrong

 

[Remus1998]

So everyone in Sonic's world must be 4-D/5-D if everyone in that world treats this place as fiction.

Do not know how to feel about that

 

[Qawsedf234]

And

(Can’t think of many willing to weigh in on random Tier 1 evaluations)

I'll look at it later

 

[Greenshifter]

Is there any chance we can get a version with stuff labelled on the image itself?

Sure, last I checked writing was your thing though ShakeTheWriter.

The one from Otherworld Comedy with Super Eggman? Because if so, it's referred to specifically as a "super other-dimensional space". That aside, why would it have 2 temporal dimensions?

Super other-dimensional space implies at least 1 more dimension than Sonic's local multiverse. It can't be an extra spatial one since then 4th dimension space would have 5 spatial dimensions (since Sonic's local multiverse has 4 spatial dimensions). Which only leaves an extra temporal dimension.

Same question as above, really.

This was actually a counterargument against JJ trying to stack more than 2 temporal dimensions.

Sorry if I'm getting confused with what you're trying to convey.

Np, I expected it.

 

[Greenshifter]

For Maginaryworld, the dream of Cyberspace is infinitesimal in comparison to the totality of 4-D space, all dreams are just small parts of the greater dream of 4th dimension space created by Illumina, the progenitor of all dreams, and the timeline of Maginaryworld is greater and more important than that of any dream, because the dreams depend on Maginaryworld to continue existing.

This is my main problem, why can't 4th dimension space just be "a bit bigger" than cyberspace, which is a fairly important dream, rather than being infinitely bigger?

Either way the Sonic world’s time component is far greater than that of the Arabian Nights by sheer size.

Are you using R > F for this or something else?

 

[Greenshifter]

I feel like I should point out that every way leads to Rome for the blue circles in my drawing. In the sense that every blue circle has its own justification for having 2 temporal dimensions, with Maginaryworld even having its own justification for 4 (infinite-sized) spatial dimensions. Which adds a high amount of consistency.

 

[Firestorm808]

Will go over when available.

 

[JJSliderman]

This is my main problem, why can't 4th dimension space just be "a bit bigger" than cyberspace, which is a fairly important dream, rather than being infinitely bigger?

Because it’s not just “a bit bigger”, if you look at the cutscene of them arriving in 4D space, the characters point out that the small orbs they pass (which are about the size of Sonic for reference), are the dream worlds. They are noted as the actual worlds and not just portals.

And for Arabian Nights, the entire world is contained within a single book/collection of books within Sonic’s universe, and Sonic’s universe is >>> an average book in size. Plus some R > F yeah.

 

[Greenshifter]

Because it’s not just “a bit bigger”, if you look at the cutscene of them arriving in 4D space, the characters point out that the small orbs they pass (which are about the size of Sonic for reference), are the dream worlds.

But if those orbs are all similar in size then they’re not representative of Cyberspace now are they?

And for Arabian Nights, the entire world is contained within a single book/collection of books within Sonic’s universe, and Sonic’s universe is >>> an average book in size. Plus some R > F yeah.

Even if this works, which I highly doubt it will because Sonic himself is also bigger than a book, I’d just chalk it up to the extra spatial dimension which Sonic’s universe has.

 

[JJSliderman]

But if those orbs are all similar in size then they’re not representative of Cyberspace now are they?

If we have dreams representative of something like Sonic’s universe, and Sonic’s universe is 5-D (either by being R > F of the AN or adding an extra spatial dimension to them as you claim), Cyberspace being parallel to Sonic’s world means a dream of Cyberspace and a dream of Sonic’s world would have the same size representation.

 

[Greenshifter]

Cyberspace being parallel to Sonic’s world

I disagree with that and have explicit proof for doing so if you read the stuff under my drawing.

 

[JJSliderman]

The End specifically remarked about breaking down the walls between dimensions in regards to Cyberspace vs Sonic’s universe, they are clearly meant to be next to each other rather than one significantly above the other.

 

[Greenshifter]

The End specifically remarked about breaking down the walls between dimensions in regards to Cyberspace vs Sonic’s universe, they are clearly meant to be next to each other rather than one significantly above the other.

Or Sonic’s just supposed to break a lot of big walls? Heck if Sonic moves across 6D space-time the wall could just be right next to Sonic’s universe.

 

[JJSliderman]

Either way, we haven’t really seen a single dream in Maginaryworld that is bigger than Sonic in the context of 4-D space, and even if we did.

4-D space would still be infinitely larger than it, as the space itself is referred to as infinite, and there is no single other dream they visibly fills up the entire space (despite the dream of Cyberspace existing for 10K years at this point)

 

[Greenshifter]

4-D space would still be infinitely larger than it, as the space itself is referred to as infinite, and there is no single other dream they visibly fills up the entire space (despite the dream of Cyberspace existing for 10K years at this point)

You’re right but that’s probably wiki standards shenanigans. I think the “can’t go bigger than infinity so we need a higher dimension” arguments should be kept for another thread.

But if not, feel free to argue it. Just know it hasn’t been pulled off before to my knowledge.

Edit: the infinity is in reference to the spatial dimensions no? So it doesn’t need to be infinitely bigger than the dreams. But sure it’s still bigger so it doesn’t really change anything Ig.

 

[JJSliderman]

The 4th dimension space still has a hierarchical superiority in terms of its time axis, as every single dream is in some way an offshoot and building block from Illumina, and all dreams depend on the Precioustone to exist.

 

[Greenshifter]

That doesn’t prove a higher time axis though. The own flow of time stuff does that, but it doesn’t work for Cyberspace since it wasn’t explicitly addressed in the game. This is just “it’s big” and “it’s important”.

 

[JJSliderman]

The time axis of Cyberspace as a whole is a higher priority than that of the individual dream realms within it, as inserting oneself in those realms doesn’t make you immune to the overarching flow of time that Cyberspace has, which is the time period that the End experienced.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah no, not what I meant, what I meant was that your argument doesn’t work for MW having a higher time axis than Cyberspace since Cyberspace already has 2 temporal dimensions and the day that passes in MW during the game could also pass in Cyberspace at the same rate.

 

[JJSliderman]

As in, the day passing in Cyberspace has to match the day passing in MW? That’s not true necessarily, different dreams in MW have different flows of time from each other (as shown by Fire Bird, Nature Zone and Emerald Coast next to each other), it’s just that they are still subject to dying at the same time as Maginaryworld regardless of what time each of the individual realms are at vs what time 4D space is at.

 

[Greenshifter]

That’s not true necessarily, different dreams in MW have different flows of time from each other (as shown by Fire Bird, Nature Zone and Emerald Coast next to each other)

Those all 1 have temporal axis, so they can’t be compared to Cyberspace.

As in, the day passing in Cyberspace has to match the day passing in MW?

It doesn’t have to, you just can’t prove that it doesn’t match since Cyberspace is a special realm with 2 temporal dimensions.

 

[JJSliderman]

I see. So, Maginaryworld is just higher into 5-D?

 

[Greenshifter]

I see. So, Maginaryworld is just higher into 5-D?

Baseline Infinite 6D (infinite multiverses, each containing infinite 4D universes is still baseline 2-A on VSBW for instance), you keep forgetting the 4th spatial dimension. I also have a 7D argument for Cyberspace but it is best kept for another thread due to being unprecedented AFAIK.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

And for Arabian Nights, the entire world is contained within a single book/collection of books within Sonic’s universe, and Sonic’s universe is >>> an average book in size. Plus some R > F yeah.

I don't think that's how it works, if the Sonic universe sees this world as fiction, then it's two things.

1 - literally everyone in sonic's world is 4-D/5-D, even normal birds.

2 - This world is below the baseline in dimensionality.

 

[Greenshifter]

To summarize:
Hyperspace containing tesseract: 3D AP and 4D range (4 spatial)
Sonic's timeline: 4D AP and 5D range (4 spatial + 1 temporal)
Sonic's local multiverse: Countless/baseline infinite 5D AP and range (4 spatial + 1 temporal)
Phantom Ruby's dimension: Baseline infinite 6D AP and range (4 spatial + 2 temporal)
Cyberspace: Baseline infinite 6D AP and range (4 spatial + 2 temporal)
Fourth Dimension Space/Maginaryworld: Baseline infinite 6D AP and range (4 spatial + 2 temporal)
The entire cosmology: Baseline infinite 6D AP and range (4 spatial + 2 temporal)
Second Phase Solaris: Baseline infinite 6D AP and 7D range (5 spatial + 2 temporal)

 

[JJSliderman]

Removed the 7-D stuff from Maginaryworld regardless.

I don't think that's how it works, if the Sonic universe sees this world as fiction, then it's two things.

1 - literally everyone in sonic's world is 4-D/5-D, even normal birds.

2 - This world is below the baseline in dimensionality.

The latter isn’t true, it has its own temporal component as shown by how Night Palace allows those who hit the hourglasses to jump to different times, so it should at least be 4-D. And Idk how else to take AN, considering it is constantly referred to as just a story with characters in the context of Sonic’s world, as opposed to Camelot where it’s treated as a parallel space more often (except the very end where it’s also portrayed as just a storybook).

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I think the "superdimensional" thing is just referring to the connection of Solaris with time

Also, i don´t understand why would the Arabians nights be a hypertimeline, the astral plane can be the "final plane" of that world

 

[JJSliderman]

I’m not saying AN is a hypertimeline, I’m saying that Sonic’s world as a whole is an embedded timeline due to containing the Arabian Nights, an infinite 4-D plane, within itself, and then having a superior temporal axis on top of it (the temporal axis of Sonic’s universe as a whole). Like what Shake suggested.