• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Attempting to upgrade the game Sonic cosmology

JJSliderman

JJSliderman

4,848
1,241
Now that the recent Otherworld Comedy and Sonic Dream Team have come out, I can finally make an attempt at upgrading the size of Game Sonic's cosmology (to coincide with the Archie boost).

All the relevant information and arguments are here. Credit to ShakeResounding for looking over it and proofreading.

As a tl;dr (this is primarily focused on the concept of hyper timelines):

  • The Arabian Nights as a realm contains an infinite 3-D space with a temporal component (that being the infinite-sized Night Palace's astral plane, which allows Sonic to travel between different time points within said plane by touching the hourglasses) that is encompassed within the full scope of the Arabian Nights, with Night Palace demonstrating a marked inferiority to the totality of the Arabian Nights, merely being one realm out of 8 and something that Erazor could control without the power of the World Rings (whereas he needed multiple World Rings to significantly affect the space of the entire Nights), and a realm whose existence is tied to the continued existence of the Arabian Nights as a whole, and a realm that could be altered without affecting the entire Nights. Thus, the full scope of the Arabian Nights is a superior timeline encompassing an infinite 3-D space+time component. Moreover, due to Night Palace's temporal component being self-contained and a separate dimension of time, this means the Arabian Nights potentially contains two time axes of hierarchy.
  • Sonic Prime shows that Sonic's universe is large enough to contain an entire macrocosm of universe-sized dimensions when it was shattered by the Paradox Prism, said macrocosm being separated spatially via the Void between realms. The Void has a dubious infinite size argument.
    • The space in Eggman's Tower is a 4-D space via containing a tesseract, an inherent 4-D structure, so containing it makes it such by default, and this is slightly supported by a starry sky being contained as well. The tower and its space is contained within Sonic's universe, and tied to its continued existence, making Sonic's world a greater timeline.
      • Because of all this, Sonic's universe is potentially a 5-D realm in scope, due to containing both a potentially infinite amount of 4-D space and a temporal component. Blaze's dimension is as well, due to the two being parallel and the collision of Blaze's universe with Sonic's being enough to obliterate both completely in Rush.
      • The fact that Sonic’s world is treated as parallel to that of the Arabian Nights due to lore from Camelot means that the Nights also can hold 4-D space within itself, along with an infinite amount of volume, means that the Arabian Nights contains an infinite amount of fourth dimensional space+1 or 2 temporal components, making it 5-D to 6-D. Sonic and Blaze’s universes scale due to being parallel and equal size to each other based on Sonic Rush.
        • Alternatively again, the Arabian Nights is contained within Sonic's world as a small part of it, meaning that the Nights are 4-D to 5-D, while Sonic's world and Blaze's are 4-D to 5-D or 6-D.
  • Cyber Space, which is referred to directly as the Digital Dream, is an infinite-sized macrocosm, implied to be endless and has encompassing data from two separate digital realms with their unique timeflow (Eggnet and the United Federations mainframe, both from Shadow's game). It is the collective wish, tens of thousands of years ago, for the Ancients to not be forgotten (and persists even in present day), and contains the individual dreams of multiple Ancients, each of which is Low 2-C. Eggman also states that the totality of Cyberspace is superior in scope to his own digital temporal creations. This makes it at least a 4-D realm via being massive in size compared to Low 2-C spaces. Alternatively, if the dreams within Cyberspace that are supposedly "universal" in scope are actually more akin to what actual universes in the Sonic multiverse are, along with Cyberspace as a whole stated to be a world parallel to Sonic's, it would mean Cyberspace can range from 5-D to 6-D.
    • Maginaryworld, which I propose as a hypertimeline, encompasses a potentially infinite amount of dream realms. This includes the aforementioned Cyber Space, making it at minimum a 5-D realm but possibly a 6-D realm, as Maginaryworld is a superior and greater dream than any other dream in the multiverse, including a dream encompassing all of Cyberspace, as all other dreams are nigh-infinitesimal in size and scope compared to Illumina's dream of the Fourth Dimension Space, and Maginaryworld is infinitely larger than any individual dream, as 4th dimension space is infinite in scope and composed of all the dreams of the multiverse, and yet no individual dream occupies the entirety of 4th dimension space (not even the 5-D to 6-D Cyberspace). So, Maginaryworld is larger than Cyberspace, hence 6-D. However, it can also be potentially 7-D, as all dreams are contained in the infinite size Fourth Dimension Space, potentially making every dream that's not Illumina's an entire infinite spatial dimension below the full extent of Maginaryworld. Hence, 7-D.
  • The Egg Salamander/the Eggmen would've created a world that "transcends dimensions" going by the Japanese script of the game, making the Egg Salamander at least 5-D, as it transcends the scope of Sonic's world, a 5-D hypertimeline. The Phantom Ruby also created a potential "super-dimension", so it would also be 5-D.
If none of the above are accepted,
  • Maginaryworld by default contains a fourth dimensional space (shi-jigen uchu, four-dimensional space), and that four dimensional space has its own time component as shown by time passing within the realm and its unique set pieces, meaning that Maginaryworld would have a temporal axis on top of a 4-D infinite space, making the whole realm at least 5-D. Sonic’s universe would be 4-D via containing a four dimensional structure (not confirmed infinite) with an extra temporal component, and Blaze’s dimension would be 4-D via being an equal in scope. The Arabian Nights would be > 4-D via being far larger than an infinite size 3-D space with a temporal component.
For an even shorter summary:

Individual dreams: 4-D, possibly 5-D to 6-D
Cyberspace: > 4-D, possibly 5-D to 6-D
Sonic and Blaze’s world: 4-D, possibly 5-D to 6-D
Phantom Ruby/Rush Eggmanland: 4-D, possibly 5-D to 6-D
Maginaryworld: 5-7 D
White Space: Beyond everything else.

Keep in mind, this is purely discussing changes to the cosmology. Scaling can be saved for another time.

Also credit to @ShakeResounding @HenshinIntervention (no longer here but very important), and @ThatBusyDude (apparently also no longer here) for some of the scans and translations.

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus (with 5-D, skeptical about higher)

Disagree:

Neutral: Maverick_Zero_X (neutral on 6-D, sees merit in 5-D)
 
Last edited:
Not the best expert on Low 1-C and above stuff, but this seems ok.

Since Solaris is also "Super-Dimensional", he'd be 7D as well, correct?
 
I agree with 6-D, I am sceptical about 7-D with "super-dimensional statement", everything else seems good. Gook cooking :coffee:
 
JJslider you have to be carefull,if ultimate thread is implemented,then the super dimensional is now gonna be 1-A
 
Eseseso said:
I see. Also, does Time Eater scale to White Space or no?

I forget a lot of that game.
Click to expand...
Time Eater doesn’t scale to White Space, no. I guess he would become a Smurf though, he can BFR people to a realm beyond the limits of possible 5-6D cosmology.
 
This seems to make sense at a glance, though I had a suggestion.

@JJSliderman Wouldn't it be a good idea to list where the top tiers of the verse scale to dimensionality wise? Unless that was something you wanted to do after this thread gets accepted hypothetically, because it'd probably be beneficial to list if certain characters reach the full 7-D of the verse or not.
 
not to give any opinion yet, but from experience, let the "who scales" talk to be done after the cosmology one ok?
 
Great Blog

I think I'll go with the lowest interpretation, simply because I'm not that good with hypertimelines stuff (Also because if 5D sonicverse exists, we can make DBH vs Game Sonic characters).
 
Alexander said:
JJslider you have to be carefull,if ultimate thread is implemented,then the super dimensional is now gonna be 1-A
Click to expand...
The intake and requirements of R>F or other things may change, but continue with this revision with the current standards without adding that revision now, because it may take a long time :coffee:
 
JJSliderman said:
I don’t think any evidence supports that, he just sends people there.
Click to expand...
You could argue pretty easily that TE sustains White Space, as his death ultimately causes everything within it to return to normal and all

Anyways I’m neutral, I don’t really have anything specific to say on the arguments here as I need to read them over a few times to make sure. Some of the reasoning did seem a bit questionable to me though like the in game timer and such.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
You could argue pretty easily that TE sustains White Space, as his death ultimately causes everything within it to return to normal and all

Anyways I’m neutral, I don’t really have anything specific to say on the arguments here as I need to read them over a few times to make sure. Some of the reasoning did seem a bit questionable to me though like the in game timer and such.
Click to expand...
His death actually doesn’t affect WS at all shown by the ending cutscene.

The in-game timer stuff is more meant to supplement the notion of a passage of time:

-For the minigames in standard dreams, it’s supported by how time passes from day to night visually.

-For Cyberspace, it’s supported by how the overall dimension experienced 10,000 years of time passing from the End’s perspective (who was trapped in Cyberspace)

-For Fourth Dimension Space/Maginaryworld, it’s supported by how the whole dimension is a parallel to Sonic’s world, and thus by default has an overall time flow.
 
I’m hesitant on all of this, but biggest thing, for me, is White Space lacks time because a guy (time eater) destroyed all of it, not because it’s inherently a transcendent plane beyond time by itself. And the reason we counted the time eater eating Maginaryworld as the case was because it was part of the multiverse. This revision would make it beyond the normal multiverse (which would still be 2-B, likely 2-A from Prime). So I don’t think white space or time eater would really relate to any of the other things being mentioned. Plus it leads to the time eater being beyond a dimension that trapped the End (and it means he would have destroyed cyberspace which would have released the End).

However if I am missing something, this would be a good time to further clarify white spaces nature if possible.
 
Last edited:
Keeweed said:
I’m hesitant on all of this, but biggest thing is White Space lacks time because a guy (time eater) destroyed all of it, not because it’s inherently a transcendent plane beyond time by itself. And the reason we counted the time eater eating Maginaryworld as the case was because it was part of the multiverse. This revision would make it beyond the normal multiverse (which would still be 2-B, likely 2-A from Prime). So I don’t think white space or time eater would really relate to any of the other things being mentioned. Plus it leads to the time eater being beyond a dimension that trapped the End.

However if I am missing something, this would be a good time to further clarify white spaces nature if possible.
Click to expand...
Time Eater has no actual bearing on the overall status of White Space, seeing as WS as a concept continued to exist in the exact same form after the Time Eater’s death, whereas everything else Time Eater affected was immediately restored to its original state. White Space is simply the realm where objects that have their time and space erased end up in the series.
 
I’ll assume I missed something, so going with it being a place that always exist and not a place the time eater made that just continues to exist. Is there any reason it lacks time from being beyond it rather than just lacking time because it doesn’t have it.
 
You sure kicked it up a notch from the last time I saw this. Great work with the pictures and such.

Okay... So lemme get this straight.
  • Cyber Space, which is referred to directly as the Digital Dream, is an infinite-sized macrocosm as it is implied to be endless and has encompassing data from two separate digital realms with their unique timeflow (The other Cyberspace and the United Federations mainframe, both from Shadow's game). It is the collective wish, tens of thousands of years ago, for the Ancients to not be forgotten (and persists even in present day). This makes it a 5-D realm, one stated to be a world parallel to Sonic's.
    • Maginaryworld, which you propose as a hypertimeline, encompasses a potentially infinite amount of dream realms. This includes the aforementioned Cyber Space, making it at minimum a 5-D realm but possibly a 6-D realm.
  • The Arabian Nights as a realm contains an infinite 4-D space (that being the infinite-sized Night Palace) that is encompassed within the full scope of the Arabian Nights. Thus, the full scope of the Arabian Nights is 5-D
  • Sonic Prime shows that his universe is large enough to contain an entire macrocosm of universe-sized dimensions when it was destroyed by the Paradox Prism.
  • The space in Eggman's Tower is a 4-D space because that tesseract/hupercube or whatever is an inherent 4-D structure, so containing it makes it such by default, and this is slightly supported by a starry sky being contained as well.
    • Because of all this, Sonic's universe is a 5-D in scope.
  • The Egg Salamander/the Eggmen would've created a world that "transcends dimensions" going by the Japanese script of the game, making the Egg Salamander at least 5-D in scope of Sonic's world is a 5-D hypertimeline. I personally disagree with it being full transcendence so I think 5-D would be the highest rating from this.
  • Because Solaris is stated to a a super/ultra-dimensional lifeform (one that exists throughout time), and because Eggman has knowledge of Maginaryworld due to appearing in Shuffle, that statement should make it superior to it and lands Solaris in the same boat of 5-D, possibly 6-D.

My comment was mainly to break this down into as simplistic terms as possible since this is a little bit of a complex topic. I'm not voting yet.
 
Last edited:
ShakeResounding said:
You sure kicked it up a notch from the last time I saw this. Great work with the pictures and such.

Okay... So lemme get this straight.
  • Cyber Space, which is referred to directly as the Digital Dream, is an infinite-sized macrocosm as it is implied to be endless and has encompassing data from two separate digital realms with their unique timeflow (The other Cyberspace and the United Federations mainframe, both from Shadow's game). It is the collective wish, tens of thousands of years ago, for the Ancients to not be forgotten (and persists even in present day). This makes it a 5-Drealm, one stated to be a world parallel to Sonic's.
    • Maginaryworld, which you propose as a hypertimeline, encompasses a potentially infinite amount of dream realms. This includes the aforementioned Cyber Space, making it at minimum a 5-D realm but possibly a 6-D realm.
  • The space in Eggman's Tower is a 4-D space because that tesseract/hupercube or whatever is an inherent 4-D structure, so containing it makes it such by default, and this is slightly supported by a starry sky being contained as well.
  • The Arabian Nights is an imbedded universe within Sonic's own that has its own flow of time and has the infinite corridor/astral plane which helps cement it as a 4-Drealm.
    • Because of all this, Sonic's universe is a 5-D hypertimeline.
  • The Egg Salamander/the Eggmen would've created a world that "transcends dimensions" going by the Japanese script of the game, making the Egg Salamander at least 5-D in scope of Sonic's world is a 5-D hypertimeline. I personally disagree with it being full transcendence so I think 5-D would be the highest rating from this.
  • Because Solaris is stated to a a super/ultra-dimensional lifeform (one that exists throughout time), and because Eggman has knowledge of Maginaryworld due to appearing in Shuffle, that statement should make it superior to all realms previously described. Thus 6-D, possibly 7-D

My comment was mainly to break this down into as simplistic terms as possible since this is a little bit of a complex topic. I'm not voting yet.
Click to expand...
My point about the Arabian Nights was that as a self-contained area it was 5-D, because it contained a 4-D area (Night Palace) encompassed by the greater timeline that was the full Arabian Nights, rather than the overall AN being 4-D and embedded in Sonic’s realm (as I assume the two are treated as separate dimensions).

For the Phantom Ruby dimensions and the Eggmanland that would have “transcended dimensions”, I assumed that in combination with the existence of super-dimensional beings that were superdimensional in terms of dimensional hierarchy would allow for a tier jump. But that seems to not be the case, so these dimensions would probably just be “At least” (whatever dimensionality Sonic’s universe is, or whatever dimensionality Maginaryworld is on a high end, but more likely Sonic’s universe).

Everything else you said generally reflects my thoughts, with the exception that Solaris would just scale above Maginaryworld in dimensionality vaguely instead of being a tier above, due to no other established cosmology on a higher dimensional plane than Maginaryworld.
 
I see some compelling arguments for this, but a lot of it seems questionable fra.

Neutral for now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

JJSliderman
The Game Sonic cosmology upgrade 2: Dimensional Boogaloo
2 3 4
Replies
133
Views
10K
Theuser789
Theuser789
JJSliderman
Sonic Cosmology part 3: The End of Magingelion
7 8 9
Replies
326
Views
18K
JJSliderman
JJSliderman
JJSliderman
Sonic cosmology part 4: The leftovers
2 3 4
Replies
127
Views
7K
JJSliderman
JJSliderman
ShakeResounding
Even Further Beyond: The Hypertime of Sonic the Hedgehog
4 5 6
Replies
211
Views
16K
Eseseso
Eseseso
omegabronic
  • Locked
Chaotic Dreams (Illumina, Void and Chaos Energy Revision)
2
Replies
73
Views
5K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Back
Top