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- Thread starter
- #241
I don’t think being infinite size in comparison to a 5-D is 6-D but then, not sure what the standards are.
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Sonic Cosmology part 3: The End of Magingelion
- Thread starter JJSliderman
- Start date
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theres still the temporal dimension for maginaryworld, and if dreams are 5D, the space is now infinite 5D, and then the temporal dimension becomes 6d
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- Thread starter
- #243
In this case there would already be a temporal dimension for the dream worlds, and there’s not enough hypertimeline evidence.
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What's even the point then?
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- Thread starter
- #245
Making the cyber hax stuff 5-D and making Maginaryworld bigger.
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Infinite 5D ap aswell
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It may make MW 6D, but before asking theoreticals, we must first conclude the debate on it
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The debate is more or less concluded. It would be mostly on what other mods think about it since neither Slider or I have changed our minds.
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- #249
That’s fair. I can accept not every dream being 5-D since it could be argued not every dream should be infinite 4-D space and uni sized. But Cyberspace should qualify, as a dream of thousands of Ancients comparable to Eggman in intelligence, as 4-D space (since Eggman has also expressed wishes that reach to a 4-D space scale), Cyberspace has uni amounts of space via statements, and a temporal component.
Eggman’s Light Man dimension/dream should also qualify because of the “infinite super-other dimensional” statement.
Eggman’s Light Man dimension/dream should also qualify because of the “infinite super-other dimensional” statement.
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No staff member agreed with Super Neo and Master Overlord being low 1-C. Only with Metal Overlord. Someone needs to revert the changes.
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- Thread starter
- #251
I feel like they should be Low 1-C by virtue of not only coming from a superior version of Neo Metal, but also using superior power sources. It seems fairly obvious that the Master Emerald is above the bio data of a bunch of adventure era base characters.
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Yeah, but nobody actually agreed to it. You need to undo the edits and then argue it here.
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we had griff and mav agree to the scaling
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Agreed to Metal Overlord, not the IDW exclusive plots.
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- Thread starter
- #256
Very well, I can’t revert it though, page needs to be unlocked
If the admins who agreed to Metal Overlord scaling are still here, please voice your thoughts on Master Overlord and Super Neo Metal Sonic scaling as well.
If the admins who agreed to Metal Overlord scaling are still here, please voice your thoughts on Master Overlord and Super Neo Metal Sonic scaling as well.
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I agree with this sentiment. Master Overlord’s author statements are too far removed from his actual feats.
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- Thread starter
- #258
Well from a logical standpoint, Master Overlord is meant to be the upgraded version of Super Neo Metal.
Super Neo Metal and Metal Madness/Overlord are both upgraded versions of Neo Metal, except super Neo came from a stronger Neo Metal, and unlike Heroes, uses the Master Emerald instead of the bio data of a bunch of base form characters. I don’t think I need to explain why the Master Emerald is a stronger source to draw power from, so at minimum Super Neo should be comparable to Metal Overlord, and Master with it. Unless you want to say Master is infinitely weaker than Super Neo which, doesn’t really make sense for Neo’s “final form”.
Super Neo Metal and Metal Madness/Overlord are both upgraded versions of Neo Metal, except super Neo came from a stronger Neo Metal, and unlike Heroes, uses the Master Emerald instead of the bio data of a bunch of base form characters. I don’t think I need to explain why the Master Emerald is a stronger source to draw power from, so at minimum Super Neo should be comparable to Metal Overlord, and Master with it. Unless you want to say Master is infinitely weaker than Super Neo which, doesn’t really make sense for Neo’s “final form”.
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I don't know if that comparison holds up. Sonic when seeing Master Overlord in issue 11 page 2 (after the recap and character section) states "On the plus side - he's not in a "super" state anymore!" and later states "Everyone's combined strength might be able to do it, but there's no way ugly here is going to let them get close". During the fight itself Tails using Eggman's ship along with every other character in the resistance damages Master Overlord and let's Knuckles get the Master Emerald as well.
Power wise it's notably inconsistent and worse than Metal Overlord being outright immune to Super Sonic's attacks without Super Tails and Knuckles also attacking him. In addition Sonic directly states he's not in a Super form after transforming, which should indicate a power decrease if nothing else.
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- Thread starter
- #260
I think Overlord is just a victim of PiS, the fact he explicitly absorbed extra data compared to Super Neo should make it stronger than the former since everything else is the same. The only explanation I can think of is maybe Shadow’s chaos spear continuing to interfere with Master’s power. I see no lore reason why Super Neo should be weaker than Metal Overlord.
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I think that Sonic was talking about how Metal lost his invulnerability. That's why he says he can be damaged again.
I agree with JJ that Master Overlord shouldn't be weaker than Super Neo, but I think none of them should scale to low 1-C
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- Thread starter
- #262
I feel like Metal Overlord and Super Neo should scale, I could see a case for Master not scaling though.
At least, I feel the former two should scale as long as Light Man is also getting his rating from pure scaling, since the justification are very similar.
At least, I feel the former two should scale as long as Light Man is also getting his rating from pure scaling, since the justification are very similar.
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Ghengiroo115
She/Her- 1,752
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I don’t see why Super Neo would scale to Low 1-C. He only absorbed a bit of the Master Emerald’s energy. Both Master Emerald-empowered characters in Sonic 3K are pretty clearly inferior to Super forms, so why would Super Neo be stronger than a form that took 3 Super characters to take down?
The idea of the Master Emerald being a logically better power source than just some bio data doesn’t work either, as the Chaos Emeralds are also a logically better power source yet alone weren’t enough to beat Metal Overlord.
The idea of the Master Emerald being a logically better power source than just some bio data doesn’t work either, as the Chaos Emeralds are also a logically better power source yet alone weren’t enough to beat Metal Overlord.
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- Thread starter
- #264
Since when are the ME powered beings inferior to super forms? Knuckles can’t scratch Super Mecha and Super Sonic can’t directly hurt final weapon.
And it’s not just that Super Neo has the master Emerald, it’s that base Neo is > post-Forces base Sonic which makes him infinitely superior to the original Neo. There’s really no reason for super Neo to be weaker when he has no real anti-feats and is using a stronger power source.
And also technically the Chaos Emeralds were enough, it’s just super Sonic alone was not.
Ghengiroo115
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Super Mecha can only use the form for a few seconds and Knuckles is capable of keeping up with him. Sonic can keep up with the Giant Eggman Robo and destroy both its fingers and its core(?). Heavy King in Mania also uses the ME to power up and doesn’t even get invulnerability.
I don’t see how the strength of Neo himself changes anything.
Yeah they needed 3 Super forms with pre-charged Chaos Emeralds to win, which shows that Metal Overlord’s power source > Chaos Emeralds.
It just feels wrong to say Super Neo > Metal Overlord when ME-powered machines are usually portrayed as weaker than Super forms and at most as strong as one.
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- Thread starter
- #266
Stamina is not a defining factor, otherwise Eggman wouldn’t be strong at all in his super form. You have a point with Kyodai Robo but final weapon is far more powerful. Also keeping up with super forms for base characters is just a thing that happens a lot; best example is Frontiers where Sonic runs ahead of bloodlusted Wyvern. Characters that get powered up by the Emeralds are also decidedly not super states inherently if Emerl is anything to go by.
The super form gets stronger as the base form does, as shown by Frontiers. Rn base Sonic is upscaling Perfect Chaos which shows that base forms can rise to the level of old super forms. So a super version of Neo Metal in the modern day should be stronger than a “super” version of Metal from the Adventure era since it’s the same character transforming.
OG Overlord’s power source was a bunch of base form things combining together with Chaos’s power (not even perfect Chaos just, regular ass Chaos). At minimum Super Neo Metal should be capable of drawing the same amount of power out of the Master Emerald, considering his performance is better than that of Metal Madness, who is comparable to Overlord. I’m not even saying Super Neo has to be stronger, but I can’t think of a lore reason he would be weaker.
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It's just that he canonically gets punked by a bunch of baseline characters and the plot hinges on him losing that way. His previous form however has nearly the same amount of characters attack and fail to do more than distract him while simultaneously three Super Form characters need to do collective attacks to actually do any damage.
I can get a possibly rating sinc either is admittedly weird, but ultimately just direct upscaling has to many issues with it in my view.
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- #268
Super Neo Metal doesn’t really have any anti-feats like that and Master should just be a stronger version of that.
If nothing else Super Neo should scale.
If nothing else Super Neo should scale.
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- #269
So I guess to summarize some of the remaining talking points:
1. Decide where super Neo and Master Overlord scale
2. Decide if cyberspace or individual characters’ dreams can qualify as 5-D
2.5. Watch prime S3 and decide if 5x uni for Sonic’s world is okay.
1. Decide where super Neo and Master Overlord scale
2. Decide if cyberspace or individual characters’ dreams can qualify as 5-D
2.5. Watch prime S3 and decide if 5x uni for Sonic’s world is okay.
Ghengiroo115
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This is pretty much where I stand as well. I get the reasoning for Super Neo to scale to Metal Overlord more than I did before, but the Master Emerald as a power source is still just way too inconsistent to say for sure.
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Maybe the Sonic Prime stuff should go into another thread
ShakeResounding
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Go to the general discussion, there's lots to discuss regarding Prime.
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- Thread starter
- #275
Bump
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- Thread starter
- #276
Bump
- 6,069
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- Thread starter
- #277
Bump
- 6,069
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- Thread starter
- #278
Bump
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If you mean every space is 2-C then no, but the totality of his local universe group would be post Sonic Advance 3.
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- Thread starter
- #280
I meant Sonic’s universe, since the 5 shatterspaces came into existence from shattering Sonic’s universe.
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