Dreams of an Overlord (Metal Overlord Tiering CRT)

[Alexander]

This means nothing. You're implying that Super Forms being able to draw out more or less power from the Chaos Emeralds is a matter of holding back, not aptitude or emotional state

Why are we arguing that the characters are not in their emotional Peak?

 

[Omegabronic]

Don't we take Classic Sonic has ADing to Modern Sonic's level when they cross over and then instantly dropping back when they split? It feels like this is a similarly exceptional incident

Dunno why the base stats would indluence one's innate aptitude and knownledge in using the Chaos Emeralds

See, this brings the point Doom Powers are just a permanent amp, which does mean Shadow lost to base Sonic fair and square.

So... are we really repeating ourselves and completely disregarding everything that was said huh? No, Shadow literally said he trew the fight, he lost on purpose, he let himself lose and even then could make a switchero with the Emeralds, that was his objective

Also:

It is inconsistent, and it doesn't nuke anything as it doesn't negate the like, 5 statements putting Overlord there, Sonic scalling or not purely affects Sonic, not Overlord, if he has statements putting him that high, but Sonic doesn't, then it is simply an outlier for him, no different than Black Pantern holding the Silver Surfer

Seriously, now that i think about it, why is Base Sonic scalling such a problem for Overlord? It doesn't affect any of his arguments at all

Covered here before, i am pretty sure complete ignoring points is against the rules... so don't, ok?

Currently the main argument can just "hold back" the Doom amp, which is never stated in the game at all.

Even irl people can hold back their strenght, stop being disonest, we talked about this before, stop ignoring it

Also, circular scalling, how the hecm does Sonic scale to an amped form of the guy he is equal to? Again, stop ignoring the past points, it is really annoying

It’s clear just held back actually using Doom Powers. Anyone who plays the game will tell you that.

Several people here played it and are saying otherwise




Seriously, ignoring the points that were covered before, that you saw were covered, is counterproductive, i won't bother to answer repetitions any more, i will just quote the answers from earlier

 

[Theuser789]

So... are we really repeating ourselves and completely disregarding everything that was said huh? No, Shadow literally said he trew the fight, he lost on purpose,

By not using Doom Powers, not because he was holding back his tier 1 power. That's literally what we see in the cutscene. Sega literally had an unused voiceline of Sonic>Metal Overlord so I can argue Shadow being base tier was authorital intent.

At this point I think it's better to downgrade Overlord to 2-C or keep him at 1-C and just make Shadow beating him as an outlier. Better than this hoopla of making him tier 1 to fight Overlord but ignoring all his base tier fights.

 

[Omegabronic]

By not using Doom Powers, not because he was holding back his tier 1 power. That's literally what we see in the cutscene.

no, what we see is Shadow sandbagging on purpose to switch the Emeralds, with the game(via Rouge) straight up saying how nonsensical was for Shadow to lose here, until he explains why he lost: he let himself lose as he isn't on equal terms with Sonic currently

Sega literally had an unused voiceline of Sonic>Metal Overlord so I can argue Shadow being base tier was authorital intent.

No you can't, it was unused, removed for unkwon reasons, might as well be cause they didn't want him being base form level

you cannot use unused dialogue as evidence, it isn't in the game, it isn't canon

At this point I think it's better to downgrade Overlord to 2-C or keep him at 1-C and just make Shadow beating him as an outlier.

Base cast scalling would be an outlier for them given all the evidence and arguments MO has for tier 1, yes

But nah. Shadow was amped when he fought him, so it wouldn't be an outlier for that version of Shadow

Better than this hoopla of making him tier 1 to fight Overlord but ignoring all his base tier fights.

He has no valid Base Tier fights, the only one he has at all he admited he lost on purpose

 

[JJSliderman]

If they're barely an upgrade then Metal Overlord shouldn't be Tier 1, no?

Barely an upgrade in versatility, obviously they make Shadow stronger.

 

[JJSliderman]

I saw it mentioned earlier but I think PC probably isn’t an anti-feat or anything. Sonic only actually hurts it by destroying the weak spot, and hitting the spot as Super Sonic causes PC to disintegrate entirely, whereas PC just takes normal damage and is still standing. There could be a case that his weak spot is 2-C and the rest of him isn’t.

 

[Theuser789]

He has no valid Base Tier fights, the only one he has at all he admited he lost on purpose

And the judging Shadow by his own feats is funny, because Shadow's feats outside of Metal Overlord are: Struggling to beat Biolizard (at best 2-C as Final Hazard and fights base Sonic in Gens 3DS), losing to base Sonic and struggling to beat Mephiles (also a base character victim). Meaning Overlord is ironically the exception here.

 

[Omegabronic]

Struggling to beat Biolizard (at best 2-C as Final Hazard and fights base Sonic in Gens 3DS)

With less Doom Powers, aka weaker, than when he fought Metal Overlord, stop being disonest by ignoring that, i expected you better than this

losing to base Sonic

stop being a rat, we just went over, AGAIB BTW, why Shadow literally let himself lose and how Sonic scalling to an amped Shadow creates circular scalling

and struggling to beat Mephiles

1 Mephiles currently is High 3-A due to the lack of tier 2 feats at his time, so unless you are saying Shadow got weaker you know this is irrelevant

2 Mephiles is clearly stronger in Shadow gens, as he can use powers he only had with 2 Chaos Emeralds, but now without them, again we discussed this before, stop ignoring stuff


Also BTW how does any of this affect MO? How does any of this disqualify his statements? If all of this is valid, it would only affect Shadow scalling to him being an outlier, it isn't a problem for any of the MO statements

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Assuming Mephiles really is stronger here, would him upscaling from peak Super forms cause any issues? Because that would make him relative to Solaris in terms of AP, which is strange but I wanna know if there’s any real contradictions with that or if it’s just weird.

Idk if I’ve already asked this or if I’m just remembering a comment I never posted

 

[Theuser789]

With less Doom Powers,

Singular Doom Power. Shadow only gains Doom Surf after Overlord.

stop being a rat,

Drop the accusations and tone down. Nobody said any insults to you.

Also BTW how does any of this affect MO? How does any of this disqualify his statements? If all of this is valid, it would only affect Shadow scalling to him being an outlier, it isn't a problem for any of the MO statements

At this point I think it's better to downgrade Overlord to 2-C or keep him at 1-C and just make Shadow beating him as an outlier. Better than this hoopla of making him tier 1 to fight Overlord but ignoring all his base tier fights.

Especially when there's an excuse for every single fight in Shadow Gens not counting except Metal Overlord. Almost comical, even.

 

[JJSliderman]

Assuming Mephiles really is stronger here, would him upscaling from peak Super forms

Think your question was just answered.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Especially when there's an excuse for every single fight in Shadow Gens not counting except Metal Overlord. Almost comical, even.

Can you explain what your stance is because I understand everyone wanting Metal to be somewhere in Tier 1 but I can't tell if you want him to be downgraded to 2-C or stay at 1-C

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Shadow only gains Doom Surf after Overlord.

You mean Lizard? You use surf during Overlord

 

[Theuser789]

Can you explain what your stance is because I understand everyone wanting Metal to be somewhere in Tier 1 but I can't tell if you want him to be downgraded to 2-C or stay at 1-C

All I don't want is to make him Low 1-C. Personally I prefer the downgrade but it's clear I am out voted here, so I prefer for him to stay 1-C. I elaborated on this several times.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

All I don't want is to make him Low 1-C. Personally I prefer the downgrade but it's clear I am out voted here, so I prefer for him to stay 1-C. I elaborated on this several times.

This discussion is several pages long so I couldn't tell, oops

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Think your question was just answered.

It obviously is strange, but he’s a supposedly stronger Mephiles that only fights an amped Shadow. I wanted to know if it’s just strange or if there’s real contradictions that arise from that.

 

[Theuser789]

Going to be honest it's clear that Mephiles is supposed to be Dusty Desert Mephiles and not "stronger than Solaris" Mephiles.

 

[Omegabronic]

Assuming Mephiles really is stronger here, would him upscaling from peak Super forms cause any issues? Because that would make him relative to Solaris in terms of AP, which is strange but I wanna know if there’s any real contradictions with that or if it’s just weird.

Idk if I’ve already asked this or if I’m just remembering a comment I never posted

Not for Metal Overlord and his own statements

Besides, the proposal is more for Low 1-C than 1-C, but regardless, i don't see much of a problem, powercreep be powercreep

Singular Doom Power. Shadow only gains Doom Surf after Overlord.

Not, he has Doom Spear, Doom Blast and Doom Surf against MO

Against the Biolizard he only has Doom Spear, again. Discussed before, with you even

Drop the accusations and tone down. Nobody said any insults to you.

You did called me a rat a few pages ago and constantly others yourself in this and the last thread, alas i will go back to speaking normally, keep my cool

Especially when there's an excuse for every single fight in Shadow Gens not counting except Metal Overlord. Almost comical, even.

You completely ignoring my point and linking an unrelated message that doesn't answer it in any way doesn't disprove it, which makes me believe you don't have a way to disprove it

My dude, all of them "count", you trying to ignore the context of all of them is the comical thing, btw, appeal to ridicule is not an argument, so try i again, i really don't care about what you find funny

 

[Omegabronic]

Going to be honest it's clear that Mephiles is supposed to be Dusty Desert Mephiles and not "stronger than Solaris" Mephiles.

Not really no, as he is not from that point in time, as he remembers being "erased from time" as Solaris, remembers Shadow, has new powers and abilities he didn't had before, could do stuff he couldn't do without the Chaos Emeralds, etc. He is a different version of Mephiles, not taken from Dusty Desert, else he wouldn't know his own erasure from his "future"

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Not really no, as he is not from that point in time, as he remembers being "erased from time" as Solaris, remembers Shadow, has new powers and abilities he didn't had before, could do stuff he couldn't do without the Chaos Emeralds, etc. He is a different version of Mephiles, not taken from Dusty Desert, else he wouldn't know his own erasure from his "future"

If he remembered his own erasure that would mean he is a Post Solaris remnant.

 

[Theuser789]

Against the Biolizard he only has Doom Spear, again. Discussed before, with you even

He has Doom Spear and Doom Blast. The idea that getting a singular Doom Power pushes him to tier 1 is, well, there's a reason this wikia is mocked.

You completely ignoring my point and linking an unrelated message that doesn't answer it in any way doesn't disprove it, which makes me believe you don't have a way to disprove it

???? How is it unrelated? It's a direct answer to your question. You're saying how it disqualifies the statements and how it would be an outlier. I am linking a post exactly saying that.

Not really no, as he is not from that point in time, as he remembers being "erased from time" as Solaris, remembers Shadow, has new powers and abilities he didn't had before, could do stuff he couldn't do without the Chaos Emeralds, etc. He is a different version of Mephiles, not taken from Dusty Desert, else he wouldn't know his own erasure from his "future"

Dusty Desert as in the boss fight, since he has all the abilities from that fight in Shadow Gens.

 

[Omegabronic]

He has Doom Spear and Doom Blast. The idea that getting a singular Doom Power pushes him to tier 1 is, well, there's a reason this wikia is mocked.

1 Argument of incredulity means nothing when one has feats to back it up, like Shadow does while amped

2 We don't know when he became "tier 1", the only reason the Biolizard doesn't scale that high is purely because we don't know when Shadow grew to any certain point after each Doom Power, they are an completely unkwon amp, we can't say how much exactly each gives him, by 3 he scales to Metal Overlord, that much we know, that only affects Shadow tho, Metal's statements are completely unrelated to him

???? How is it unrelated? It's a direct answer to your question. You're saying how it disqualifies the statements and how it would be an outlier. I am linking a post exactly saying that.

Your post was you purely saying what MO's tier shoukd be in your opinion, while talking about "base tier fights", which were exactly what i was debunking in the first place, none of the fights are legitimate anti feats for Shadow, and more over, none of them affect MO's scalling in anyway as they don't invalidate any of his statements

How is posting a message about a topic i was debating, while i was debating, supposed to be proof against my points if the points are covering exactly what is written? It doesn't give a new perspective, it is just what you said at the time... said again... you get what i mean?

Dusty Desert as in the boss fight, since he has all the abilities from that fight in Shadow Gens.

Place where the fight is taking place =/= time period where the boss is from

Specially with all i mentioned that straight up proves that this is a post Solaris defeat Mephiles, not the one from Dusty Desert

 

[CloverDragon03]

Going to be honest it's clear that Mephiles is supposed to be Dusty Desert Mephiles and not "stronger than Solaris" Mephiles.

I have my reservations, as you know, but I feel I should clarify that with the Low 1-C proposal that would still be a Mephiles that is uncountably infinitely below Solaris

 

[Theuser789]

2 We don't know when he became "tier 1", the only reason the Biolizard doesn't scale that high is purely because we don't know when Shadow grew to any certain point after each Doom Power, they are an completely unkwon amp, we can't say how much exactly each gives him, by 3 he scales to Metal Overlord, that much we know, that only affects Shadow tho, Metal's statements are completely unrelated to him

Biolizard directly scales to Sonic in Gens 3DS.

How is posting a message about a topic i was debating, while i was debating, supposed to be proof against my points if the points are covering exactly what is written? It doesn't give a new perspective, it is just what you said at the time... said again... you get what i mean?

Because it's not supposed to be proof against you, just my own points. You need to stop being so confrontational, not everything is a fight to show who is right.

Place where the fight is taking place =/= time period where the boss is from

Dusty Desert as in, the Mephiles from that boss fight, since all the moves he uses are from that fight. Not that he's literally taken from that time period. Is that this "amped" Mepihles is just supposed to be "2 emerald Mephiles" and not "infinitely stronger" Mephiles.

 

[JJSliderman]

I have my reservations, as you know, but I feel I should clarify that with the Low 1-C proposal that would still be a Mephiles that is uncountably infinitely below Solaris

Ngl Mephiles somehow being able to get infinitely stronger than Iblis despite Iblis being Solaris’ power aspect, makes less sense.

 

[Omegabronic]

Biolizard directly scales to Sonic in Gens 3DS.

So the mutation he received during his fight with Shadow made him that strong to give trouble to Doom Powers Shadow, as that is the justification for him to have went from tier 4 to 2

Because it's not supposed to be proof against you, just my own points.

I specifically asked about how would anti feats for Shadow would affect Metal's statements... so yeah, of course i would be expecting exactly what i asked, an answer to my question. Which now i realise you didn't even do

Dusty Desert as in, the Mephiles from that boss fight, since all the moves he uses are from that fight. Not that he's literally taken from that time period.

IF he isn't from that point in time, then nothing of what you said matters to him. As he is still a post solaris mephiles, so him being stronger for unknown reasons, specially since he is fighting a stronger Shadow, is not a problem, at all. He is different, can do things he couldn't before(using moves without Chaos Emeralds when he previously needed them), so unless you are arguing he is the same Mephiles from the Dusty desert boss fight, you have no point, as this Mephiles could be and is shown to be stronger, for whatever unknown reason, but it is a fact that he is as he can fight a much stronger Shadow from previously



Still waiting for how any of this disqualifies Metal Overlord's statements? You keep talking about Shadow instead of focusing on who the thread is about, why is that?

 

[Theuser789]

I specifically asked about how would anti feats for Shadow would affect Metal's statements... so yeah, of course i would be expecting exactly what i asked, an answer to my question. Which now i realise you didn't even do

And the question is that it wouldn't. That's why I linked a post about Overlord being 1-C but Shadow being an outlier.

You keep talking about Shadow instead of focusing on who the thread is about, why is that?

Because you brought Shadow being tier 1 first? It was the anti-downgrade side who brought Shadow being tier 1 in the thread.

 

[JJSliderman]

I feel like unless people are willing to seriously consider the idea of tier 1 base Sonic, tier 2 Overlord is the better option.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I feel like unless people are willing to seriously consider the idea of tier 1 base Sonic, tier 2 Overlord is the better option.

Well no one is seriously considering that idea so you know what must be done...

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah ngl, saying Mephiles could always copy to reach tier 1 and yet still lost to base Shadow in ‘06 seems weird.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Ignoring Tier 1 base cast, the options right now are to either downgrade MO to 2-C or say that Sonic doesn’t scale to 4DP Shadow.

IMO Sonic scaling has good arguments for and against it, and I don’t think there’s really an objectively correct answer. However with the evidence for Tier 1 MO being as big as it is, I personally think the more elegant and simpler solution for now is to just say Sonic doesn’t scale.

 

[Omegabronic]

And the question is that it wouldn't. That's why I linked a post about Overlord being 1-C but Shadow being an outlier.

oh i see, sorry for the misunderstanding then

Because you brought Shadow being tier 1 first? It was the anti-downgrade side who brought Shadow being tier 1 in the thread.

Ok, so ignoring if Shadow scales or not, that should be decided in the thread that is covering him

If Shadow scalling is abandoned to focus on MO himself... huh, i am a bit lost ngl

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I feel like unless people are willing to seriously consider the idea of tier 1 base Sonic, tier 2 Overlord is the better option.

I'm not against it conceptually, but that relies on Sonic actually scaling to Shadow with four Doom Powers, let alone him with Doom Powers at all

 

[JJSliderman]

I'm not against it conceptually, but that relies on Sonic actually scaling to Shadow with four Doom Powers, let alone him with Doom Powers at all

All Sonic would need to do is scale to Mephiles, and conceptually I don’t buy Mephiles somehow being able to get infinitely stronger than he was in ‘06 just by copying Shadow at a later date or by training.

 

[Chariot190]

Why are we a whole extra page now, wtf are you goons doing

 

[Theuser789]

Ignoring Tier 1 base cast, the options right now are to either downgrade MO to 2-C or say that Sonic doesn’t scale to 4DP Shadow.

Or saying Shadow beating Overlord is an outlier, rather than a singular Doom Power (Surf) boosted Shadow to tier 1 and every other fight is either an outlier or creating weird narratives (tier 1 Mephiles by doing nothing).

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Why are we a whole extra page now, wtf are you goons doing

There needs to be a final consensus and soon.

 

[Chariot190]

Why in the actual hell is this just a page of things we literally already went over like ten times, not a single word uttered here is even new.

Meph don't matter, Sonic don't matter, hell even Shadow himself don't matter. We already went through this.

"Is Meph different". "Yes". "Ok he don't matter". Why he is different doesn't change the fact he is.

"Did Shadow literally deliberately fake a loss and job to get Sonic off his ass and plan ahead to the extent he could even pull a switcheroo while also saying he literally held back and also the game noting how Shadow got stronger, but Sonic and Shadow are literally equal in strength, speed and agility pre buff in that very game by direct statements so there's no way Sonic can scale anyway because it'd lead to Shadow downscaling off himself but WEAKER which is obviously a far worse point of contention backed by direct statements in that very game". "Yes". "Ok so Sonic don't matter".

"Did Shadow get stronger?". "Yes." "Ok so him being weaker than MO doesn't matter because now he's just stronger".

How we're arguing about scaling when the game actively tries its best to disable scaling between Sonic and Shadow, makes zero sense. The intent is blatant, obvious. It's actual legit nitpicking that even if you do nitpick, doesn't actually lead to them scaling anyway because nothing actually happened.

Meph is like the only fucky, but that's contrived at best and doesn't actually effect anything because no MATTER what's happening, he'd still be at a wildly diff power (He was High 3-A in 06, so he'd STILL be infinitely stronger in Generations, whether MO is 2 or 1, because Shadow is at least 2-C by default and he's only gotten stronger. The fact he does seem different, why doesn't matter, invalidates this anyhow as if he's different, then he too is an X-Factor).

And the worst part about ALL of this, is that even if it was all true, none of this would affect where MO scales because the fault of contradiction would lay in something unrelated to him, none of this would effect whether or not the reasons for MO to scale to 1-whatever are right or wrong.

Like, this was supposed to be the concise thread, we argued it, we have now literally cycled back, are we gonna need a 3rd thread now?

 

[Theuser789]

The intent is blatant, obvious.

This sentence is quite funny because if you ask outside of the wikia 80% of them would say Metal Overlord is a base form victim. That plus the unused voiceline, plus Toyoda's Egg Dragoon comment, plus Shadow only fighting base form victims, clearly shows that Metal Overlord isn't supposed to be a character thousands of times stronger than Shadow. But I guess intent only matters when it supports my vision.

Heck, speaking of intent, most people outside of the wikia would also agree Shadow only "held back" by not using Doom Powers, and not because he's suppressing his KI like Goku.

You are right this is irrelevant, which is why I think Overlord should just be 1-C and just put Shadow as an outlier or whatever.

 

[Chariot190]

This sentence is quite funny because if you ask outside of the wikia 80% of them would say Metal Overlord is a base form victim.

That's cool, fortunately for us we've been able to figure out that the Shadow who got stronger, did in fact get stronger.

That plus the unused voiceline,

Yep, the unused voiceline. The voice line they actively decided not to use for some reason. The voiceline that was cut for reasons that evidently had nothing to do with storage, game limitations, or anything of that sort. The line they cut for some reason.

plus Toyoda's Egg Dragoon comment,

The personal belief of someone, in a statement that's actively framed as being personal subjection?

We literally have rules against that.

Not withstanding, so? ED scales then, that's cool, nobody has yet to even explain why that's wrong or doesn't work.

plus Shadow only fighting base form victims, clearly shows that Metal Overlord isn't supposed to be a character thousands of times stronger than Shadow.

Self-fulfiling argument.
MO isn't a base form victim, you're concluding he is based on a faulty premise, and because of said faulty premise, aserting it to be true. That's circular reasoning.

MO objectively isn't anyway, he fought a Shadow explictly stronger than base Shadow, who is stated to be equal to Sonic, before said power up.

But I guess intent only matters when it supports my vision.

Apparently.

Heck, speaking of intent, most people outside of the wikia would also agree Shadow only "held back" by not using Doom Powers, and not because he's suppressing his KI like Goku.

I do not care. At all. Not even a bit.
Nobody gives a shit what other people think, are we them? Do they effect us? If you want to use stuff off wiki, use it off the wiki.

People off wiki also think Goku is like 5-B max, or not FTL, or this and that. What they think doesn't matter.

And what they think doesn't effect intent. Shadow held back. He said he held back. He held back enough to where he could formulate a plan ahead of time to get Sonic off his ass. And it also doesn't matter because in the end we know Shadow in that scene > Shadow > Shadow > Shadow > Sonic=Shadow because we're told as much twice in that same game (E-Omega, the actual bios, etc).

Your conclusion would have base Shadow, scale to himself after he's gotten stronger multiple times throughout.

You are right this is irrelevant, which is why I think Overlord should just be 1-C and just put Shadow as an outlier or whatever.

Shadow wouldn't be an outlier, he'd just scale. Sonic literally doesn't effect anything. And if he did, well I guess Sonic is scaling then. Either or, I don't quite care what happens but we gotta stop just handwaving stuff.