Dreams of an Overlord (Metal Overlord Tiering CRT)

[Theuser789]

Don't go around saying "objectively" when it's up to interpretation and most of the fanbase outside of the wikia believes to be one. Let's use words correctly.

 

[Dalesean027]

Don't go around saying "objectively" when it's up to interpretation and most of the fanbase outside of the wikia believes to be one. Let's use words correctly.

Dawg by the time of the first amp we know shadow is stronger, we don't know how strong though he's an unknown at that point, saying for certain he's X amount stronger is the part is the subjective part but we know we're told bro is getting stronger. So yes he is objectively stronger the only part that's up to interpretation is how much stronger which should be based on his own feats. I don't see the problem there, and I'm not sure how you are either?

 

[Theuser789]

Yes, he is stronger, but it isn't "objective" that it isn't an anti-feat for the very reasons you listed:

saying for certain he's X amount stronger is the part is the subjective part but we know we're told bro is getting stronger. So yes he is objectively stronger the only part that's up to interpretation is how much stronger which should be based on his own feats

So thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[Chariot190]

It's only a anti-feat if he didn't get stronger.
If he did get stronger, Shadow doesn't effect it at all as he's an unknown variable whom's very scaling is dictated by what he does post growth, as in Shadow has no bearing on MO, but MO would effect Shadow's.

It isn't an anti-feat. It's objectively not an anti-feat. The conditions for it to be one, are not met as Shadow's degree of power prior doesn't effect him st that point.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yes, he is stronger, but it isn't "objective" that it isn't an anti-feat for the very reasons you listed:

If you agree he is objectively stronger to an unknown degree then we literally have nothing to discuss, that means in fact you should be agreeing cause otherwise you're just holding into a double standard. He IS unquantifiable stronger from the moment he gets the first amps from doom and continuously gets amps making him still unquantifiably more strong throughout the game something you have just agreed with so therefore you agree that'd make him an empty slate as we don't know how much stronger he got which would mean he should be judged off of what feats he has throughout the game.

So I'll say again contextually him jobbing against Sonic wouldn't be an anti-feat either since he very clearly intentionally let himself lose and held back to make a play to swap the emeralds, the scene isn't saying oh shadow is losing even with amps no its saying shadow played a bit to deceive Sonic and get his chaos emeralds by holding back his power in their encounter. Anything else is just up to whatever shadow does in the game so yes it should very much be objective that he is stronger to an unknown degree and that we should judge him off of what his actual feats are in the game...

 

[DoggoTron]

If you agree he is objectively stronger to an unknown degree then we literally have nothing to discuss, that means in fact you should be agreeing cause otherwise you're just holding into a double standard. He IS unquantifiable stronger from the moment he gets the first amps from doom and continuously gets amps making him still unquantifiably more strong throughout the game something you have just agreed with so therefore you agree that'd make him an empty slate as we don't know how much stronger he got which would mean he should be judged off of what feats he has throughout the game.

So I'll say again contextually him jobbing against Sonic wouldn't be an anti-feat either since he very clearly intentionally let himself lose and held back to make a play to swap the emeralds, the scene isn't saying oh shadow is losing even with amps no its saying shadow played a bit to deceive Sonic and get his chaos emeralds by holding back his power in their encounter. Anything else is just up to whatever shadow does in the game so yes it should very much be objective that he is stronger to an unknown degree and that we should judge him off of what his actual feats are in the game...

Gonna have to agree with Dalesean here, the Sonic and Shadow fight shown from Shadow's POV in SxS Gens clearly shows Shadow holding back as he does here (time stamped) likely because he knows he is much more powerful at that point in the expansion to beat Sonic going on to further explain that he will "beat him on equal terms or none at all" (1:49).

 

[Theuser789]

Him being unquantifiable stronger doesn't mean it's "objectively" not an anti-feat. If you agree how strong he got is up to interpretation than it's not objective in anyway. People can just interpret he's barely stronger and that already shatters this "objective". This is what I was talking about in my previous posts...

 

[Dalesean027]

Him being unquantifiable stronger doesn't mean it's "objectively" not an anti-feat

He is a blank slate an objective unknown not bound by his previous scaling, literally just "stronger to X degree". So again his scaling is ONLY bound by his feats in this game.

The Sonic thing is literally him just throwing the fight for a plan, this isn't even implied its like stated outright so ig if you're arguing otherwise to that then please provide proof? because right now I'm not really like seeing what the point is you're trying to make about that specific thing at all since that's what you're arguing is an anti-feat for whatever reason?

If you agree how strong he got is up to interpretation than it's not objective in anyway

that interpretation of how strong he got is bound by what his feats are after being amped, he scales from what he does not others scaling from him so yes it is objective where he scales is based on his feats, that's how the scaling SHOULD be interpreted otherwise its basis is on headcanon if you're not using what literally happens in the events of the game.

People can just interpret he's barely stronger and that already shatters this "objective".

that's great for them and not to be rude but that quite literally means nothing? People are always free to say whatever they want but that's got no bearing on what actually happens in the game. We as a wiki striving for accuracy however should not be creating our own interpretations after we already know he's a blank slate which makes it pretty objective that we should be using his own feats to scale from which means if you're and not without additional evidence, context, or reasoning to support your points then something is wrong

 

[Theuser789]

that's great for them and not to be rude but that quite literally means nothing? People are always free to say whatever they want but that's got no bearing on what actually happens in the game.

Okay, but that's not my point. My point wasn't that you are right or not, it’s just that the claim "Shadow beating Overlord is objectively not an anti-feat" is just wrong. It's not an objective interpretation. Demeaning the people who believe otherwise doesn't really change that there are other interpretations, thus it isn't objective.

 

[Baken384]

Keep Tier 1 Metal Overlord.

 

[Dalesean027]

Demeaning the people who believe otherwise doesn't really change that there are other interpretations, thus it isn't objective.

Gonna just pass this because at no point did I demean you or say anything remotely rude?

Okay, but that's not my point. My point wasn't that you are right or not, it’s just that the claim "Shadow beating Overlord is objectively not an anti-feat" is just wrong. It's not an objective interpretation.

Its a claim made followed by me providing a reasoning for said claim, something which you agreed too. People are free to have their own interpretations but that's not what we're looking at on the wiki, we're looking at the fact of the matter based on what we know to be the evidence and facts given to us from the game not what some random who isn't going to really care about the scaling aspect and just played the game because he thought it looked fun thinks about it.

So really there was just no point in even arguing that man, basically just a derailment from what the actual substance of what I said was.

 

[Theuser789]

So really there was just no point in even arguing that man, basically just a derailment from what the actual substance of what I said was.

You said it was "objectively" not an anti-feat. I addressed it's not objective in anyway possible. This isn’t derailing. By asserting that your take is the factual one, this takes away the debate. It already dismisses any counters before they can be thrown. The fact you agree it can be up to interpretation means it cannot be objective. A objective fact has no other interpretations. If Shadow beating Metal Overlord is supposed to be objective, then you cannot agree it has other interpretations. I can only assume you don't know the weight the word "objective" has, then.

Gonna just pass this because at no point did I demean you or say anything remotely rude?

I didn't say you deamed me, I said you deamed people in general by just ignoring and discarding them, which is true. You are dismissing them because of them being just casuals, but their opinion still matters in the case of something being objective, since objective facts cannot have any other interpretations whatsoever.

 

[Dalesean027]

The fact you agree it can be up to interpretation means it cannot be objective. A objective fact has no other interpretations. If Shadow beating Metal Overlord is supposed to be objective, then you cannot agree it has other interpretations. I can only assume you don't know the weight the word "objective" has, then.

that interpretation of how strong he got is bound by what his feats are after being amped, he scales from what he does not others scaling from him so yes it is objective where he scales is based on his feats, that's how the scaling SHOULD be interpreted otherwise its basis is on headcanon if you're not using what literally happens in the events of the game.

We'll leave it at that because otherwise no real argument was addressed here by ya at all so I've no business to continue with you

 

[Theuser789]

We'll leave it at that because otherwise no real argument was addressed here by ya at all so I've no business to continue with you

You are the one who didn't address my arguments, there. I will just have to assume you aren't using the word "objectively" correct, then.

 

[Dalesean027]

You are the one who didn't address my arguments, there. I will just have to assume you aren't using the word "objectively" correct, then.

So I can take this as your disagreement to this then?

that interpretation of how strong he got is bound by what his feats are after being amped, he scales from what he does not others scaling from him so yes it is objective where he scales is based on his feats, that's how the scaling SHOULD be interpreted otherwise its basis is on headcanon if you're not using what literally happens in the events of the game.

You don't believe Shadow should judged by his feats in game or that we should interpret his strength due to that.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

I'm telling you that objectively it is baseless, there's no room for arguing it. And all you're doing is stirring the pot further by going "don't be sensitive" after making accusations - as if starting a random fire and then being confused when it spreads

No more of this. Focus on the thread at hand

Same goes for this btw, let's chill on accusations

There's no accusations being thrown. All I said was that putting him at 2-C is dishonest. Not pointing at anyone. You made it into an issue when it wasn't. I don't care what you have to say, personally.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Saying this when the low 1-C argument was literally made up JUST to keep him in tier 1 is certainly a choice.

I mean, you can complain about it if you want. That's certainly a choice.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well its objectively not an anti-feat because Shadow's stats would be unknown since he's unquantifiable stronger from the moment he gets the first amps from doom so he'd only be judged off of what feats he has throughout the game, him jobbing against Sonic wouldn't be an anti-feat either since like bro intentionally let himself lose and held back to make a play to swap the emeralds so there's really no anti-feats from shadow gens for shadow himself, its moreso a matter of the arguments for either side of the scaling in regards to the past overlord stuff itself that matters here.

If merely having the Doom Powers makes Shadow stronger, then Sonic's fighting a stronger Shadow than before and a problem occurs. If Shadow needs to be actively using them to be considered stronger than base, it should be noted that he harms Metal Overlord even without Doom Powers, and it becomes a lose-lose situation

 

[JJSliderman]

It would make sense if he could control his strength, seeing as the abilities the doom powers Shadow has at the time provide are, honestly, not useful or barely an upgrade against Sonic anyway.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It would make sense if he could control his strength, seeing as the abilities the doom powers Shadow has at the time provide are, honestly, not useful or barely an upgrade against Sonic anyway.

If they're barely an upgrade then Metal Overlord shouldn't be Tier 1, no?

 

[Omegabronic]

If merely having the Doom Powers makes Shadow stronger, then Sonic's fighting a stronger Shadow than before and a problem occurs.

... you agreed he held back and let himself lose on purpose some pages before... did you forget that very important detail?

Also, that would be an outlier for Sonic, Base Shadow is = to Base Sonic, said in the game itself, so it becomes circular and thus disregarded

If Shadow needs to be actively using them to be considered stronger than base, it should be noted that he harms Metal Overlord even without Doom Powers

No one is arguing that, why bring it up?

 

[CloverDragon03]

... you agreed he held back and let himself lose on purpose some pages before... did you forget that very important detail?

Also, that would be an outlier for Sonic, Base Shadow is = to Base Sonic, said in the game itself, so it becomes circular and thus disregarded

I'm like half and half now because looking at the fight itself, it doesn't actually look like he held back in his "base" state. He only decided to lose after he contemplated using his Doom Powers and then deciding against it.

And as I said before, if there's a consistent solution, I don't like throwing the term "outlier" around. It's like what happened with Perfect Chaos too, to contextualize my thought process with a previous revision.

No one is arguing that, why bring it up?

It's heading off all possible counters, because my point is that it becomes problematic no matter which way you look at it

 

[Omegabronic]

I'm like half and half now because looking at the fight itself, it doesn't actually look like he held back in his "base" state. He only decided to lose after he contemplated using his Doom Powers and then deciding against it.

He straight up said they weren't on equal terms and after Sonic's first hit on him, Shadow fakes a K.O and stands up completely unharmed

And as I said before, if there's a consistent solution, I don't like throwing the term "outlier" around.

Define "consistent solution", cuz Sonic scalling to someone stronger than the base state that he is said to be equal to is circular scalling, factually so

It's like what happened with Perfect Chaos too, to contextualize my thought process with a previous revision.

Considering that MO was a point against that thread... it isn't a very good point

It's heading off all possible counters, because my point is that it becomes problematic no matter which way you look at it

It doesn't, all "problems" are solved by the simple fact that base Sonic has no scalling to Doom Shadow, at all

 

[Omegabronic]

Btw, Sonic directly says for them to not hold back at all against Metal Overlord, for even more blatant evidence

 

[CloverDragon03]

Btw, Sonic directly says for them to not hold back at all against Metal Overlord, for even more blatant evidence

This means nothing. You're implying that Super Forms being able to draw out more or less power from the Chaos Emeralds is a matter of holding back, not aptitude or emotional state

 

[Baken384]

Btw, Sonic directly says for them to not hold back at all against Metal Overlord, for even more blatant evidence

Facts king. More evidence of full power emeralds.

 

[Omegabronic]

This means nothing. IYou're implying that Super Forms being able to draw out more or less power from the Chaos Emeralds is a matter of holding back, not aptitude or emotional state

... you speak as if it is one of those instead of all of them

And "holding back" would cover those things regardless, so


Also... just realized that if Base Sonic scalling is the only "problem"(it isn't, showed multiple times it isn't) then why would it supercede the montain of evidence for Low 1-C/1-C scalling that was shown? If you want "consistency" why go with the most inconsistent route?

 

[CloverDragon03]

He straight up said they weren't on equal terms and after Sonic's first hit on him, Shadow fakes a K.O and stands up completely unharmed

In reference to the fact that he decided against using his Doom Powers. He decides to not use them, and loses. He calls it a defeat by talking about how he will either win on equal terms or not at all.

Define "consistent solution", cuz Sonic scalling to someone stronger than the base state that he is said to be equal to is circular scalling, factually so

I've talked about this before so you can go find that yourself

Considering that MO was a point against that thread... it isn't a very good point

You don't even know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when we removed Perfect Chaos being an outlier for Base Sonic. That was because I had a consistent solution

It doesn't, all "problems" are solved by the simple fact that base Sonic has no scalling to Doom Shadow, at all

My biggest issue atm is how we handle Shadow being amped by Doom Powers. If he inherently is boosted simply by having them, shit gets problematic, because it's clear Shadow didn't decide to lose until when he contemplated using his Doom Powers

 

[CloverDragon03]

... you speak as if it is one of those instead of all of them

And "holding back" would cover those things regardless, so

You and I both know that's not something Team Sonic has active control over. This is the worst argument by far

Also... just realized that if Base Sonic scalling is the only "problem"(it isn't, showed multiple times it isn't) then why would it supercede the montain of evidence for Low 1-C/1-C scalling that was shown? If you want "consistency" why go with the most inconsistent route?

It's not inconsistent, it just nukes Tier 1 Metal Overlord

 

[Omegabronic]

In reference to the fact that he decided against using his Doom Powers.

That's a interpretation, which is contradicted by Gerald and Doom explicitly saying how each Doom power grow Shadow's power, and how Base Shadow is said to be Sonic's equal in both Bios and by Omega

So no, it is in reference to him in general, as that is objectively what the game says(Base Sonic = Base Shadow << Doom Powers Shadow)

Seriously dunno why we have to repeat the same points yet again... seriously, we talked about this before, why the repeat of past topica with nothing new added?

He decides to not use them, and loses. He calls it a defeat by talking about how he will either win on equal terms or not at all.

Aka they weren't on equal terms to begin with, as otherwise he could continue fighting without using the Doom Powers

I've talked about this before so you can go find that yourself

This... doesn't help the thread move on at all

Also, should i find the counter points made to that? Will you link me to them? This... really isn't helpful

You don't even know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when we removed Perfect Chaos being an outlier for Base Sonic. That was because I had a consistent solution

... nothing about the situations is even remotely comparable, this i fear is a non-sequitur, don't even know why you brought it up

My biggest issue atm is how we handle Shadow being amped by Doom Powers. If he inherently is boosted simply by having them, shit gets problematic, because it's clear Shadow didn't decide to lose until when he contemplated using his Doom Powers

Which is problematic because? That doesm't prove he is comparable to Sonic before that point, specially when we ARE DIRECTLY SAID THEY MAKE HIM STRONGER, i am sorry, but this part of if they amp him or not is not up to debate, they do, it is explicitly said that they do, Evolved Shadow follows the exact same principles of the Doom Powers even and it is an "always on" amp, again, we talked about this all extwmensively before, why repeat old points with nothing new in them?

 

[Omegabronic]

You and I both know that's not something Team Sonic has active control over. This is the worst argument by far

... no, if you want to affirm such a ridiculous thing as Sonic not being able to control his own emotions... then prove it

Honestly flabbergasted at such a statement

It's not inconsistent, it just nukes Tier 1 Metal Overlord

It is inconsistent, and it doesn't nuke anything as it doesn't negate the like, 5 statements putting Overlord there, Sonic scalling or not purely affects Sonic, not Overlord, if he has statements putting him that high, but Sonic doesn't, then it is simply an outlier for him, no different than Black Pantern holding the Silver Surfer

Seriously, now that i think about it, why is Base Sonic scalling such a problem for Overlord? It doesn't affect any of his arguments at all

 

[CloverDragon03]

"Why do we need to retread the same points?" Because you keep insisting on some of the worst argumentation ever because 2-C Metal Overlord is just too hard of a pill to swallow, especially the point about Team Sonic now somehow being able to control how much aptitude for the Chaos Emeralds they have??? Like, have we lost the plot? Are we creating a caricature of the Sonic franchise rather than representing it as it actually is?

It's shit like this that's killed my motivation to do anything with the verse

 

[Chariot190]

Why is everyone accusing people of ******* agenda's and motives.

 

[Dalesean027]

especially the point about Team Sonic now somehow being able to control how much aptitude for the Chaos Emeralds they have???

Yeah this at least I don't agree with, they can go all out for the level of aptitude they are at at that time but obviously how much they can do isn't up to them entirely

What even is the convo now though atp

 

[Omegabronic]

"Why do we need to retread the same points?" Because you keep insisting on some of the worst argumentation ever because 2-C Metal Overlord is just too hard of a pill to swallow

Dude, "worst argumentation ever"? Is bringing straight up said amps and several statements, which you agreed with before btw, bad? why? more importantly, most of them were already said before, you are not addressing my point, why force a situation that we have nothing to do by repeat ourselves?

Seriously, arguing the same exact stuff, ignoring what was previously discussed, as if it doesn't exist, even if it would be for a simple betterment of your points, is simply being a stonewall for the sake of it, it doesn't help the thread. Deflecting the "blame" to "bad arguments" makes no sense "Yeah, huh, you made bad arguments, so like, i will just say the exact same thing i said earlier" what sense does this have? Cuz you are not "rethreading" you are literally saying the exact same ones word by word, it gets tiring

, especially the point about Team Sonic now somehow being able to control how much aptitude for the Chaos Emeralds they have???

Strawman much? That isn't what i said?... hello?

The only aptitude part i argued is that Sonic already has enough for 100% in the Adventure Era, i already proved that for Sonic, in a few pages ago and in the initial thread, that he has the aptitude to use the full power of the Emeralds... i would be repeating myself once more if i said it here tho, so like... can we not?

Like, have we lost the plot? Are we creating a caricature of the Sonic franchise rather than representing it as it actually is?

... oh wow, what a great argument, can you address the actual points instead of trying to use a cheap appeal to ridicule to invalidate the other side? "See, your points are ridiculous, so i don't need to actually debate you and can just say the same things again and again", legit asking, how does this disprove what i + multiple others showed? what is the argument? Cuz saying "it is ridiculous" really isn't one. And how does that justify repeating with the same words the same points from before? Cuz it is still no productive to not acknowledge what was said earlier, the arguments against and for, it is stagnating and leads to nowhere at all

It's shit like this that's killed my motivation to do anything with the verse

... shit like what? People arguing against you? People having a different view than you? I am legit asking, i am not being sarcastic, not am i being retorical, what is the "shit" in question here? I legit don't know what is the problem here for you to say stuff like this

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah this at least I don't agree with, they can go all out for the level of aptitude they are at at that time but obviously how much they can do isn't up to them entirely

What even is the convo now though atp

Since Classic Sonic can already access the Full Power of the Emeralds in Generations to fight the Time Eater, without being taught how to do it, it is safe to say that the he always had the aptitude to access their full power even before the Modern Era, thus not holding back would include the actual full power of the Chaos Emeralds

 

[CloverDragon03]

Since Classic Sonic can already access the Full Power of the Emeralds in Generations to fight the Time Eater, without being taught how to do it, it is safe to say that the he always had the aptitude to access their full power even before the Modern Era, thus not holding back would include the actual full power of the Chaos Emeralds

Don't we take Classic Sonic has ADing to Modern Sonic's level when they cross over and then instantly dropping back when they split? It feels like this is a similarly exceptional incident

 

[Ghengiroo115]

If they're barely an upgrade then Metal Overlord shouldn't be Tier 1, no?

I think JJ meant ability-wise. Doom Surf and Doom Morph are useless here, Doom Blast is a close range beatdown so it definitely wasn’t what Shadow was trying to do at that moment, and Doom Spear is just multi-target Chaos Spear. Shadow would most logically be trying to do Doom Spear here, but as far as we know that wouldn’t give him anything Chaos Spear already does. In that sense the only significant thing that would arise from that would be raw power.

To be clear I don’t think that in a vacuum necessarily means Shadow is considering going from base to Doom (the aura and eye glow happens even while he was already using his Doom level of strength so it technically could just be Shadow going full power or whatever), but yeah I think that’s what JJ was going for there.

If merely having the Doom Powers makes Shadow stronger, then Sonic's fighting a stronger Shadow than before and a problem occurs. If Shadow needs to be actively using them to be considered stronger than base, it should be noted that he harms Metal Overlord even without Doom Powers, and it becomes a lose-lose situation

Doesn’t he do the same thing with Devil Doom? Or is there something that would make that different?

 

[Theuser789]

You don't believe Shadow should judged by his feats in game or that we should interpret his strength due to that.

I just have to assume you are purposely misunderstanding me. If you think how strong Shadow got is up to interpretation, than "Shadow beating Metal Overlord is objectively not an anti-feat" isn't objective. Up to interpretation is inherently subjective. Why is this so hard to understand?

And the judging Shadow by his own feats is funny, because Shadow's feats outside of Metal Overlord are: Struggling to beat Biolizard (at best 2-C as Final Hazard and fights base Sonic in Gens 3DS), losing to base Sonic and struggling to beat Mephiles (also a base character victim). Meaning Overlord is ironically the exception here.

 

[Theuser789]

Doesn’t he do the same thing with Devil Doom? Or is there something that would make that different?

See, this brings the point Doom Powers are just a permanent amp, which does mean Shadow lost to base Sonic fair and square.

Currently the main argument can just "hold back" the Doom amp, which is never stated in the game at all. It’s clear just held back actually using Doom Powers. Anyone who plays the game will tell you that.