The Game Sonic cosmology upgrade 2: Dimensional Boogaloo

[JJSliderman]

They all just said "agree with 5D" which would include all 5D stuff being proposed i assume

@Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 Would you say this is accurate?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Pretty sure Mav specified agreement with only Maginaryworld and Cyber Space in the second reply, not the 5-D universe. The rest of the 5-D arguments and the 6-D arguments, neutral.

The rest do need to specify tho, yeh

 

[JJSliderman]

So I’m assuming Mav doesn’t agree with CS being parallel to Sonic’s world, okay.

 

[Omegabronic]

@Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 Would you say this is accurate?

Normal users pinging people won't call them here, you need to call them elsewhere

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'd still like Firestorm808 or Qaw take a look at this if possible for more thorough input, but it doesn't seem like they have the time.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Hey, I'm temporarily back because this matters to me.

The people who agree with 5D without specifying which part sound disengeniuous tbh. They're bascially saying "Yeah, there's way too much evidence in favor of a tier 1 upgrade here, but I don't WANT this upgrade to be any higher than 5D." I don't want it either since Sonic has way better matchups as a 5D than as anything higher, but looking at all of this, 7D still seems like the most objectively sensible conclusion. Here's a map of what the cosmology would look like if EVERYTHING proposed were to be accepted.

If you put Sonic's universe at 6D, that would even bump it up to 9D. As I said, I don't believe all of this should be accepted. There may even be things that straight up contradict each other in this map if all of it is accepted at once. The point is that this upgrade has a lot of intertwining elements and that with each one you accept, you are likely to bump it up a whole dimensional tier. That's why you need to be very specific on your stance. In my case, the reason I believe 7D is the most reasonable answer goes as follows:

-I agree with Sonic's universe and the arabian nights being 5D, regardless of the floodgates this may open. In the case of Sonic's universe, it really is as simple as the fact that it has 4 spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension. If our space-time continuum is 4D due to having 3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension, then Sonic's universe containing Eggman's IDW tower means it must have 4 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension. In the case of the arabian nights, it's arguably even simpler, and as per the 2-B Maginary World blog that's already accepted, individual dream worlds should be of a similar scope to both Sonic's world and the arabian nights, making them 5D as well.

-I agree with Cyber Space being qualitatively superior to other individual dream worlds, therefore 6D. Now, we even actually have a link that proves the Cyber World in STH is infinite, which is great supplementary evidence, (although individual dream worlds should already be infinite since they're accepted to reflect the scope of the main universe and the arabian nights). Needless to say, I disagree with it being parrallel to Sonic's world, as such an assertion is contradicted by its role in the cosmology, and Sage's stated implication that it is a higher dimensional plane.

-I agree with Maginary World being above everything else, either via a greater time flow or an additionnal temporal dimension, but I'm VERY iffy on giving it two dimensional tier boosts by virtue of it maybe having both, to say the least. So, 7D in total. Just like Archie. If you think one of these points is iffy for whathever reason, 6D, possibly/likely 7D works fine imo, but you once again have to specify which point.

 

[JJSliderman]

This, my overall interpretation in the OP is what Petro stated but knowing which element people accept we 5-D is important. Case in point, Sonic and Blaze’s universe being 5-D means there are an infinite amount of 5-D universes in the multiverse, whereas just MW being 5-D means there is only one (which seems to be the direction currently leaning towards with two of the staff votes).

@Peptocoptr27 Just a correction, Sage didn’t say that Cyberspace was a higher dimensional plane, just a different one.

Since you marked the Nights and Sonic’s universe as 5-D I take it you don’t accept the extra temporal axis idea?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

"Different" means either higher or lower, and there's no way Sage meant that Cyberspace is lower plane of reality given the other statements made about its size and complexity. Hence why I said that she strongly implied it's a higher dimensional plane.

By "temporal axis idea", do you mean Sonic's world being qualitatively superior to the arabian nights via seeing it as fiction? I do disagree with that. It could just be immersion or a DSB time scroll kind of deal, like we said previously. Not to mention how much your interpretation complicates and massively inflates the scaling of the verse. It also sets a precedant wherein almost any other story where characters visit a fictionnal book/game/TV worlds can become tier 1 with very minimal evidence.

 

[JJSliderman]

I assumed different could also mean parallel or alongside.

I was referring to the idea that the Nights contain two dimensions of time, one inside the Night Palace and the greater one for the whole Nights (the hypertimeline idea).

 

[Peptocoptr27]

"Different" when referring to a dimensional PLANE specifically, can only be higher or lower I'm pretty sure.

Oh. I didn't read your most recent edits to your blog. Let me do so before I comment on this

 

[Brogeefrong]

So grace finshed will 5D be applied now or will more discussion about the higher levels take place before anything gets applied?

 

[Lenyo456]

I prefer to wait and wait for others to have a final say, to finish this subject once and for all, and so that we don't have to maybe create another thread for it

 

[Omegabronic]

I would like to wait for at least all the 5D stuff gets solved, as in staff gives imput on all the 5D stuff

 

[Omnificence]

I'm still neutral on the whole thing, but I guess a "likely/possibly Low 1-C" would make sense based on the evidence in the op. Nothing higher than that, though, because I think that's pushing the limit for me based on the mods' opinions.

 

[JJSliderman]

If you’re going to say just 5-D, again, please specify what elements you consider 5-D, there is 3-4 elements I marked to get the 5-D boost.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

And if you accept EVERY 5D argument, what you get is actually between 7D and 9D. You NEED to elaborate. Why do staff responses to this thread suck so much? Oh, right. This is why I left the wiki in the first place. Nvm

 

[Brogeefrong]

If you’re going to say just 5-D, again, please specify what elements you consider 5-D, there is 3-4 elements I marked to get the 5-D boost.

Should add in that in the op btw

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

It probably means nothing at the moment, but I want to put my vote in and say that I think 5-D is pretty solid based off the Arabian Nights being a hypertime that's parallel to Sonic's universe and due to the fact that Sonic's universe is a greater timeline that's higher then Eggman's Tower and that 4-D Tesseract. I can't really give my opinion on the Maginaryworld and Cyber Space stuff since I'm a buffoon when it comes to higher dimensions, but if the former is considered a higher and larger place then Sonic's own universe then I can also buy it being possibly 6-D.

So all in all: I think 5-D, possibly 6-D is what I would for.

 

[Qawsedf234]

• Thus, the full scope of the Arabian Nights is least a superior timeline encompassing an infinite 3-D space+time component.
• Moreover, due to Night Palace's temporal component being self-contained and a separate dimension of time, this means the Arabian Nights potentially contains two time axes of hierarchy.

This is happening in far to many threads here. Two time axis has nothing to do with a separation of space-times continuums. Its about temporal directions. The fact all of these realms progress forwards means they can operate off of a single temporal direction.
For the cosmology blog

So, we've finally confirmed that individual dream worlds (as the Reverie in this game is themed around Eggman's dreams specifically) have their own time flow, and have reason to believe that said time flow is independent of a greater timeline’s time flow (Maginaryworld, in this case). With that, we can jump into...

The first part there isn't correct. They all have the same time flow, the difference is the rate of that flow (if at all), which isn't evidence for two temporal axis.

How does this correlate to the Arabian Nights? Well, if you recall the scan from earlier about the infinite corridor in the Night Palace, it also mentioned that there were multiple hourglasses. These hourglasses, when struck, are stated to “change time”, warping Sonic to “another place - and another time”, allowing him to access previously inaccessible areas.

The comparison here is to Dragon Ball, but the key difference is that Dragon Ball has independent temporal origins and evidence that those temporal origins being destroyed doesn't effect anything else. A realm having hourglasses that control time rates doesn't mean anything. You'd have to prove that the hourglasses create time itself and the destruction of one realm's time (through this origin) has no impact on other realms.

But more crucially, the Arabian Nights is treated as an alternate space in the world of Sonic, rather than just being a fictional story. While the actions of Erazor and the entire Arabian Nights are entirely controlled by the story and its text, which exist as part of the Arabian Nights book written in Sonic’s world, and Sonic even calls out that all of this is just some storybook tale, the fact that Erazor planned to travel to Sonic’s world after absorbing enough of the words from the Nights does debunk the notion of Erazor being an entirely lower dimensional level than Sonic, as he would effectively be achieving power on a higher dimensional level (which is a beyond infinite power boost), by absorbing power from his lower dimensional world. It’s more apt to say that the storybook is comparable to the time scrolls from Dragon Ball Heroes; a physical object which determines the fate of an alternate world.

As to why this is important, if the Arabian Nights is indeed parallel to Sonic’s world, it means it has the potential to contain 4-dimensional spaces like Sonic’s world. So, we have the Arabian Nights being infinite size, containing 4-dimensional space, and a temporal component (possibly 2, looking at the previous section). Combining all these together makes the Arabian Nights 5-D, also extending to Sonic’s world due to being a parallel, Blaze’s world for similar reasons, and Cyberspace, further backing up that realm’s 5-D status. Possibly 6-D with both temporal components and the infinite 4-D space.

For the first one it runs into the same problem as before. The time scrolls in Dragon Ball are tied to independent origins of time for that cosmology. You'd have to prove the hourglasses work as the Time Clock Room in Dragon Ball works for this comparison to be valid.

If the universes was considered a story book (as in a R>F equivalent), then yes, that would be two temporal axis.

Alternatively, Maginaryworld is a realm that contains an infinite four-dimensional space with a unique temporal component, thus adding an extra axis on 4-D to make 5-D.

This seems straightforward. I'm fine with calling this area 5-D.

For the rest I'm not seeing 7D or 9D. At best maybe 6D if Super-Dimensional spaces if you were to be generous interpretation wise. I certainly don't see two temporal axis going on anywhere.

 

[JJSliderman]

The comparison here is to Dragon Ball, but the key difference is that Dragon Ball has independent temporal origins and evidence that those temporal origins being destroyed doesn't effect anything else. A realm having hourglasses that control time rates doesn't mean anything. You'd have to prove that the hourglasses create time itself and the destruction of one realm's time (through this origin) has no impact on other realms.

I can confirm that destroying this realm and its time would have no impact on the rest of the Nights, as the realm itself is entirely isolated and contained within the scope of the Night Palace. You only access it within the palace and only see it while traveling through the palace. The palace itself is a tiny piece of the overall Nights, a single building in a greater dimension. Moreover, I did note that since Erazor has full control over the palace containing said dimension, and the dimension actively attempts to antagonize Sonic at every turn, that Erazor is the one who has full control over the dimension (as the dimension only appears after Erazor creates warps into it). So Erazor may be responsible for the dimension’s creation, and as such is responsible for it’s time as well.

If the universes was considered a story book (as in a R>F equivalent), then yes, that would be two temporal axis.

It is stated at multiple points that the realm is a fictional story from the perspective of Sonic’s world, as they frequently refer to it as such, refer to those in the world as “characters” and “main characters of the story”, and the world itself is entirely governed by the physical text of the storybook, with said text disappearing from the book in Sonic’s world in combination with the world’s space disappearing. However, Erazor also plans to transcend from his world into Sonic’s after collecting enough power from the Nights, so I’m unsure about it.

This seems straightforward. I'm fine with calling this area 5-D.

For the rest I'm not seeing 7D or 9D. At best maybe 6D if Super-Dimensional spaces if you were to be generous interpretation wise. I certainly don't see two temporal axis going on anywhere.

Thank you for your input, I’ll mark you as considering 5-D MW acceptable.

For transparency I did also add that Sonic’s world contains its own 4-D space and temporal axis, is that acceptable to make his world 5-D? Or no.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I can confirm that destroying this realm and its time would have no impact on the rest of the Nights, as the realm itself is entirely isolated and contained within the scope of the Night Palace. You only access it within the palace and only see it while traveling through the palace. The palace itself is a tiny piece of the overall Nights, a single building in a greater dimension. Moreover, I did note that since Erazor has full control over the palace containing said dimension, and the dimension actively attempts to antagonize Sonic at every turn, that Erazor is the one who has full control over the dimension (as the dimension only appears after Erazor creates warps into it). So Erazor may be responsible for the dimension’s creation, and as such is responsible for it’s time as well.

I get that, but that wasn't the point I was making. Dragon Ball is Low 1-C because it has separate origins of time for every Macrocosmos, you would need to prove that those realms have their own independent temporal origins for that comparison to be valid.

It is stated at multiple points that the realm is a fictional story from the perspective of Sonic’s world, as they frequently refer to it as such, refer to those in the world as “characters” and “main characters of the story”, and the world itself is entirely governed by the physical text of the storybook, with said text disappearing from the book in Sonic’s world in combination with the world’s space disappearing. However, Erazor also plans to transcend from his world into Sonic’s after collecting enough power from the Nights, so I’m unsure about it.

The reason I'm bringing it up, is that your example here would imply they're all Tier 11 if that's true. Since they're a 2D story embedded within a 3D space. Which is fine and would suggest that Sonic's world has two time axis, but you would need to downgrade all the story characters as well for that reasoning.

The only other way would be to prove the book has a hard start and ending within the Sonic universe and wouldn't change. Though its a lot harder to prove iirc.

 

[Georredannea15]

I get that, but that wasn't the point I was making. Dragon Ball is Low 1-C because it has separate origins of time for every Macrocosmos, you would need to prove that those realms have their own independent temporal origins for that comparison to be valid.

Btw apart from that there is also the feat that there are timelines at all time points and they time travel between all of them through the overarching larger timeline.

 

[JJSliderman]

I get that, but that wasn't the point I was making. Dragon Ball is Low 1-C because it has separate origins of time for every Macrocosmos, you would need to prove that those realms have their own independent temporal origins for that comparison to be valid.

Hmm, yeah I can't do that. The closest to an independent time origin would be Erazor creating it as an independent entity which I assume doesn't count.

The reason I'm bringing it up, is that your example here would imply they're all Tier 11 if that's true. Since they're a 2D story embedded within a 3D space. Which is fine and would suggest that Sonic's world has two time axis, but you would need to downgrade all the story characters as well for that reasoning.

So the Nights having a temporal component wouldn't be enough to move them out of 2-D?

The only other way would be to prove the book has a hard start and ending within the Sonic universe and wouldn't change. Though its a lot harder to prove iirc.

The story does have a start (King Shahryar created the world according to the story's text), but no end. And the story does pretty explicitly change as shown by the ending.

Btw the 4-D space in Sonic's world I'm referring to is the tesseract space in Eggman's tower in IDW.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So the Nights having a temporal component wouldn't be enough to move them out of 2-D?

It would be 3D, since it would be an infinite amount of 2-Dimensional Spaces through a time axis.

Hmm, yeah I can't do that. The closest to an independent time origin would be Erazor creating it as an independent entity which I assume doesn't count.

If you can prove that it created time itself for that realm or something like that, maybe. But its hard to prove without clear statements.

 

[JJSliderman]

Btw apart from that there is also the feat that there are timelines at all time points and they time travel between all of them through the overarching larger timeline.

Oh yes, to clarify this I'll quote an excerpt from the blog:

"Both these areas only existed because of alternate changes in the timeline (releasing Iblis and failing to get the time stones/destroy the robot generators in Sonic CD respectively), and yet still exist as spatial realms for Time Eater to erase. Crisis City in particular is referred to as a universe in supplemental material. There are other examples, like the Sonic CD manual noting that you jump into new dimensions when you time travel, and how Sonic traveling from Mania to Forces and back was stated to be traveling to a different time and dimension (Sonic Mania Encyclospeedia story blurb), but they may have been retconned."

And in Sonic '06 the characters traveled to new timelines/dimensions whenever they time traveled via Eggman's machine. So, traveling through time in Sonic may be equivalent to traveling through dimensions.

It would be 3D, since it would be an infinite amount of 2-Dimensional Spaces through a time axis.

What would be the rating for that? Just for the Nights. I would accept a possible downgrade of the Nights, if Sonic's world would get boosted to 5-D.

If you can prove that it created time itself for that realm or something like that, maybe. But it's hard to prove without clear statements.

Yeah, I can't prove that. At most he can be confirmed to have control over and possibly create the realm and manipulate time within said realm.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And in Sonic '06 the characters traveled to new timelines/dimensions whenever they time traveled via Eggman's machine. So, traveling through time in Sonic may be equivalent to traveling through dimensions.

It depends here. If the timeline was entirely erased from existence, it could be. But if its just a possibility that can happen, it wouldn't count. Unless you have evidence that was specifically the 06 game version that we see in that level I guess (as in you were inserted into the events of that game's story).

What would be the rating for that? Just for the Nights. I would accept a possible downgrade of the Nights, if Sonic's world would get boosted to 5-D.

Like 3-A or High 3-A.

 

[JJSliderman]

It depends here. If the timeline was entirely erased from existence, it could be. But if its just a possibility that can happen, it wouldn't count. Unless you have evidence that was specifically the 06 game version that we see in that level I guess (as in you were inserted into the events of that game's story).

The events of the game were erased by a time paradox (aka Crisis City never happened and Silver’s ruined future is a new one in every subsequent appearance due to the lack of Iblis minions), but it still appears as a separate spatial realm within White Space, the place where erased space-time goes.

Like 3-A or High 3-A.

Okay, I might go all in on the “fictional storybook” angle then.

 

[Theuser789]

Unless you have evidence that was specifically the 06 game version that we see in that level I guess (as in you were inserted into the events of that game's story).

This is the case because Iblis is there, even though he gets erased in 06.

I also disagree with the Arabian Nights being "fictional" in comparison to Sonic's. As said in the thread, the time scroll comparison is far more charitable, and everyone bring tier 11 complicates things far more.

 

[Firestorm808]

I suppose Maginaryworld makes sense for 5-D.

Will look into other stuff when available.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 Thank you guys so much for your clear input.

 

[JJSliderman]

This is the case because Iblis is there, even though he gets erased in 06.

I also disagree with the Arabian Nights being "fictional" in comparison to Sonic's. As said in the thread, the time scroll comparison is far more charitable, and everyone bring tier 11 complicates things far more.

I thought so too but Shake provided scans that outright say entering the book is equivalent to transitioning between “the real world” or “reality” and the book world, and Lost Prologue itself is teeming with text, pages, and other book trappings. The levels are even referred to as “paragraphs”, they really try to hammer in that the events of the game take place in a fictional story.

 

[Theuser789]

I thought so too but Shake provided scans that outright say entering the book is equivalent to transitioning between “the real world” or “reality” and the book world, and Lost Prologue itself is teeming with text, pages, and other book trappings. The levels are even referred to as “paragraphs”, they really try to hammer in that the events of the game take place in a fictional story.

That doesn’t really mean the world is literally 2D, just that their reality is built like a book. You mentioned last thread how Camelot was different, despite sharing all these similarities (Being in a book, having a literal story that characters follow, all the characters being fictional, etc.).

The Arabian Nights simply are a world that is built inside a book, not that everything is fictional. Erazor was going to go to Sonic's world with all the World Rings, and the story never frames that feat as he literally becoming a real person.

Look, I know you want this thread to succeed, but I am not sacrificing all the storybook games for this.

 

[JJSliderman]

If the world was just parallel, they wouldn’t say that entering the world is equivalent to going outside of reality, they would simply refer to it as “another world” or something similar. There wouldn’t be all these obvious book-like elements, or Sonic referring to the world as just fairytale stories. There wouldn’t be an obvious transition point between the real world and the world of manuscript like the Lost Prologue. And the fact that Erazor is controlled by the actions of text, text which created these worlds and characters just as a real life author would create fictional worlds and characters through text, I think is enough to say that the Nights are fictional.

 

[Theuser789]

There wouldn’t be all these obvious book-like elements, or Sonic referring to the world as just fairytale stories. There wouldn’t be an obvious transition point between the real world and the world of manuscript like the Lost Prologue. And the fact that Erazor is controlled by the actions of text, text which created these worlds and characters just as a real life author would create fictional worlds and characters through text, I think is enough to say that the Nights are fictional.

Just because they are book-like elements doesn't mean the world is fictional. You are repeating your last comment almost word by word. There's plenty of fiction where someone enters another world that is represented by text and has a story that characters follow. It doesn't mean it's all fiction. Again, if it was all 2D, the game would've commented on the dimensional jump Erazor would've taken with the World Rings. But that never happens in the game. Not once Erazor going to Sonic's world is treated as a fictional character becoming real.


This is my last response about this topic. Since you are really stubborn and keep replying until the entire thread is derrailed. So this thread won't be derrailed like the last one. But I am firmly against 2D Storybook Games. This downgrade is just made to make Sonic stronger, not for accuracy.

 

[JJSliderman]

There are multiple times where characters jumping from a 2-D page to a standard world doesn’t have the characters comment on dimensionality shifts (such as the Fairly Oddparents with the Crimson Chin), I don’t think mentioning that jump is a requirement. The stories of the Arabian Nights are very clearly fictional, Aladdin does not exist as part of Sonic’s history, and a story where magic genies exist did not just spring out of nowhere in Sonic’s world. But I digress.

 

[Greenshifter]

Go for a possibly rating?

 

[Theuser789]

There's no possibly here. Either the words are fictional, or they aren't. We shouldn't make major changes in the cosmology just to get a higher tier.

 

[JJSliderman]

I guess my stance was

If Sonic’s world is the one with the second time axis, it would be 5-D to 6-D via an extra temporal axis and 1-2 spatial dimensions over the Nights, which caps at 3-D via being an infinite amount of 2-D+temporal component, all other worlds parallel or greater are higher 6-D.

If MW is the one with the greater temporal component, then Sonic’s world (and equivalent or greater words up to Maginaryworld) is 4-D to 5-D via 1 or two spatial dimensions over the Nights, while Maginaryworld remains 6-D for the extra time component.

AN become 3-D overall via infinite 2-D+time component.

 

[Greenshifter]

There's no possibly here. Either the words are fictional, or they aren't. We shouldn't make major changes in the cosmology just to get a higher tier.

I'm literally at possibly User since I think both of your arguments make sense. Also it wouldn't just result in a higher tier, but a lower tier as well.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I missed the 6-D arguments. Can someone sum them up? Granted I think MaginaryWorld is 5-D at least.