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Yeah this seems weirdly dedicated for an upgrade rather than sticking to currently accepted cosmology. Even the blog doesn't treat anything as fictional.
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The Game Sonic cosmology upgrade 2: Dimensional Boogaloo
- Thread starter JJSliderman
- Start date
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- #82
Well as long as this is a general cosmology discussion, I figure it worth addressing the idea of the Nights being fictional, as a lot of the reasoning for it does make sense to me. The fact that I’m proposing Cyberspace as a dream is inherently an upgrade to dreams anyway, since dreams are only seen as Low 2-C and CS would be at minimum a 2-C (probably 2-B) dream.
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Tbf the initial argument was made more in a "hey look an extra temporal axis because AN is a part of Sonic's world" kind of way, without thinking about the full consequences of that. Also I'm pretty sure we can still make that argument without arguing for R > F as well.
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- #84
Arabian Nights are fictional to Sonic’s world, so the characters are physically 2-D via being confined to the 2-D page, but the world itself has a flow of time to manipulate, so it is 3-D.
Sonic’s world is a fourth dimensional space rather than a 3-dimensional one due to IDW additions, so it has two dimensional levels above the Nights to make 5-D overall. Then, depending on if a second temporal axis exists in the world outside the Nights, and whether that would apply to Sonic’s world or the overall external cosmology, Sonic’s world could potentially jump to 6-D, and every world larger than Sonic’s or equal would also be 6-D. Alternatively, the extra time axis could apply only to the highest echelon of the cosmology, Maginaryworld, in which case Sonic’s world and every other sub-MW realm is 5-D, MW is 6-D.
Or there is no second temporal axis and Sonic’s world and everything above/equal is just 5-D.
ShakeResounding
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You can slot in Firestorm under agree (with 5-D, the other topics are awaiting further input from him).
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- #86
If the R > F transcendence is too much for some people, then Sonic’s world and it’s parallels and superiors can all be some variant of 5-D, via being 4-D spaces with a time component. But the story does make it pretty clear the Nights are a work of fiction from Sonic’s perspective.
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Because they are a storybook in Sonic's world. The twist is that the stories in the book are real. That's it.
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- #88
They’re “real” only when Sonic enters the book, he is explicitly exiting what is referred to as “the real world” when he enters the book. But agree to disagree I suppose.
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- #89
But alright, what do you think about Sonic’s world and equal/greater size realms being 5-D on the basis of containing four-dimensional space and a temporal component?
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What is your opinion about the "4 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension" argument used for 5D? It is another argument for it outside of the 2 temporal dimensions one
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Bump
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- #92
I know Maginaryworld being 5-D is pretty much already accepted but to run through my current thoughts.
I do believe Eggman constructed four-dimensional space in his tower. The argument is that Eggman only constructed a model of a tesseract (which can be done by normal 3-D humans), but an actual tesseract has properties such as folding in on itself ad infinitum and constantly reshaping. Not only is the tesseract tangible, as Sonic and co. physically landed on it, but the world the tesseract is part of is one that is explicitly described as warping spatial laws and the laws of physics to reshape and fold in on itself ad-infinitum. Combined with Eggman’s experience with viewing 4-D space or beings from his adventures to Maginaryworld and his encounters with Solaris, and that the maze could briefly trap Sonic, who already demonstrated 4-D capabilities in his weaker Generations state by recreating entire space time continuum with his speed, I believe he could recreate the effect of 4-D space on a smaller scale like he did here.
However, since he warped the laws of physics to create this space, Sonic’s universe should not be 5-D, as Eggman likely artificially added an extra dimension.
But since Eggman can add extra dimensionality with his tech, I think it’s fair to say that both the Phantom Ruby dimension (which is called super-dimensional), and the Eggmanland Eggman would have created in Rush (which he stated would transcend dimensions), do qualify as 5-D, via four spatial dimensions and a temporal axis, as well as infinite size.
Eggman also describes his Ruby dimensions as his “dreams”, and he expressed a “wish” to make his dimensional Eggmanland. Wishes and dreams both qualify as worlds that can be made tangible. Since Eggman made both his dimensions with items on par with the Chaos Emeralds (and the Otherworld Comedy was after Test Run in release order), and since Cyberspace was made with and is powered by the Emeralds, Cyberspace should be able to contain a dream of Eggman’s caliber, especially since Eggman himself was inside Cyberspace, and Cyberspace absorbs the memories/dreams of those who enter. And both Eggman’s Dream and Cyberspace would exist in Maginaryworld, hence 5-D MW as well.
In the event R > F transcendence is still on the table, the Nights would become 3-D (via infinite amount of 2-D space + time component). Sonic’s world would have an extra spatial dimension on top, making it 4-D, but there is also an extra time axis to be distributed. The reason being that the time axis for the Nights would count as an independent origin, as the world and all of its features are controlled by text written in the book, including its space and time. So it’s origin is the text in the book, not the overall origin of time.
Since Sonic’s world, Maginaryworld, and Cyberspace are all disconnected, the extra time axis could apply to Sonic’s world and its equivalents, which would make Sonic and Blaze’s worlds 5-D. Everything above that would get a possibly 6-D rating, including dream worlds, Rush Eggmanland/Phantom Ruby, and Cyberspace. Maginaryworld receives a definitive 6-D rating, as due to its status as the largest temporal Entity in the verse, the time axis would definitely apply to it. If the time axis only applies to MW, Sonic’s world drops to 4-D, Cyberspace and the superdimensional spaces also drop to 5-D. Summing up:
Without R > F:
Cyberspace, Maginaryworld, superdimensional areas: 5-D
With R > F:
Arabian Nights: 3-D
Sonic and Blaze’s world: 4-D, possibly 5-D
Superdimensional spaces and Cyberspace: 5-D, possibly 6-D
Maginaryworld: 6-D
I do believe Eggman constructed four-dimensional space in his tower. The argument is that Eggman only constructed a model of a tesseract (which can be done by normal 3-D humans), but an actual tesseract has properties such as folding in on itself ad infinitum and constantly reshaping. Not only is the tesseract tangible, as Sonic and co. physically landed on it, but the world the tesseract is part of is one that is explicitly described as warping spatial laws and the laws of physics to reshape and fold in on itself ad-infinitum. Combined with Eggman’s experience with viewing 4-D space or beings from his adventures to Maginaryworld and his encounters with Solaris, and that the maze could briefly trap Sonic, who already demonstrated 4-D capabilities in his weaker Generations state by recreating entire space time continuum with his speed, I believe he could recreate the effect of 4-D space on a smaller scale like he did here.
However, since he warped the laws of physics to create this space, Sonic’s universe should not be 5-D, as Eggman likely artificially added an extra dimension.
But since Eggman can add extra dimensionality with his tech, I think it’s fair to say that both the Phantom Ruby dimension (which is called super-dimensional), and the Eggmanland Eggman would have created in Rush (which he stated would transcend dimensions), do qualify as 5-D, via four spatial dimensions and a temporal axis, as well as infinite size.
Eggman also describes his Ruby dimensions as his “dreams”, and he expressed a “wish” to make his dimensional Eggmanland. Wishes and dreams both qualify as worlds that can be made tangible. Since Eggman made both his dimensions with items on par with the Chaos Emeralds (and the Otherworld Comedy was after Test Run in release order), and since Cyberspace was made with and is powered by the Emeralds, Cyberspace should be able to contain a dream of Eggman’s caliber, especially since Eggman himself was inside Cyberspace, and Cyberspace absorbs the memories/dreams of those who enter. And both Eggman’s Dream and Cyberspace would exist in Maginaryworld, hence 5-D MW as well.
In the event R > F transcendence is still on the table, the Nights would become 3-D (via infinite amount of 2-D space + time component). Sonic’s world would have an extra spatial dimension on top, making it 4-D, but there is also an extra time axis to be distributed. The reason being that the time axis for the Nights would count as an independent origin, as the world and all of its features are controlled by text written in the book, including its space and time. So it’s origin is the text in the book, not the overall origin of time.
Since Sonic’s world, Maginaryworld, and Cyberspace are all disconnected, the extra time axis could apply to Sonic’s world and its equivalents, which would make Sonic and Blaze’s worlds 5-D. Everything above that would get a possibly 6-D rating, including dream worlds, Rush Eggmanland/Phantom Ruby, and Cyberspace. Maginaryworld receives a definitive 6-D rating, as due to its status as the largest temporal Entity in the verse, the time axis would definitely apply to it. If the time axis only applies to MW, Sonic’s world drops to 4-D, Cyberspace and the superdimensional spaces also drop to 5-D. Summing up:
Without R > F:
Cyberspace, Maginaryworld, superdimensional areas: 5-D
With R > F:
Arabian Nights: 3-D
Sonic and Blaze’s world: 4-D, possibly 5-D
Superdimensional spaces and Cyberspace: 5-D, possibly 6-D
Maginaryworld: 6-D
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Disagree extremely hard with the idea of an infinite amount of 4D space implies 5D space. There's also very little implying that the Sonic's world somehow transcends the Arabian Nights, it seems more likely that it's simply an alternate reality Sonic was dragged into (Similar to Camelot)
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Wut? Infinite 4D space + 1 temporal dimension.
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- #95
It’s not “just” an infinite amount of 4-D space, it’s also the temporal component. 4 dimensions of space + 1 dimension of time.
And there is a decent amount of support for the Nights being a fictional realm, most notably the fact it’s entirely controlled by text written in a book within Sonic’s world, the world itself being constantly referred to as a story or a book with characters, and that transitioning into the world is equivalent to leaving “reality”. But if you don’t agree with that that’s fine, the existence of multiple realms with 4 spatial and 1 temporal dimension should allow for 5-D regardless.
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Where are we getting four spatial dimensions from, anyways? Isn't the 4th dimension time?
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- #97
That’s more an implicit thing, the fourth dimensional space in Sonic is actually a spatial construct that has four outward visible dimensions (stuff like the tesseract), or are explicitly called fourth dimension space without factoring in temporal elements (like Maginaryworld).
The space itself in this case has four dimensions, as opposed to normal Low 2-C which is 3 dimensions of space and a temporal component. Since these realms have an extra dimension to the space, alongside a temporal component, they have 5 dimensions, and thus 5-D.
The space itself in this case has four dimensions, as opposed to normal Low 2-C which is 3 dimensions of space and a temporal component. Since these realms have an extra dimension to the space, alongside a temporal component, they have 5 dimensions, and thus 5-D.
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Only within the context of a 3D universe like ours. Sonic's physical universe must have 4 spatial dimensions in order to house a tesseract.
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For those still viewing the thread and blog, I did heavily change the premise and OP to lower the maximum dimension boost to 5-D, and only for specific dimensions. Multiple staff have already agreed to 5-D for Maginaryworld specifically, but I was hoping some could comment on the revised OP and voice their opinions.
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That kind of seems like a deliberate low-ball at this point, but I'll look into it when I have the time.
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Some people have problems with Nights being anything but parallel to Sonic’s world.
Nights having 2 temporal dimensions got debunked.
JJ gave up on MW having 2 temporal dimensions based on dreams (rate of time was his main evidence).
So not a lot is left (might make another CRT for the stuff that remains though)
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- #102
Hypertimeline stuff was a bust and R > F transcendence is at best seeming like a neutral, 5-D is the highest it seems that is reasonable. I also heard the thread might have dissenters coming soon so, wanted to try and get as solid an argument as possible.
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My opinion probably doesn’t matter at this point, but I agree with 5-D Maginaryworld.
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- #104
Just Maginaryworld? Any opinion on the Rush Eggmanland/Phantom Ruby/Cyberspace being 5-D?
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A 4th dimension is actually a spatial dimension, but most of the time fiction treats it as a temporal dimension.
Technically speaking 4D+1 can work, but only if there's evidence that time itself isn't a fourth dimension construct. If it is then they're just Tier 2.
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For what it's worth, the evidence you presented throughout this thread should still make the arabian nights and Sonic's universe at least 2-C sized, so that might be worth mentionning in the conclusion.
By your current blog's logic, I don't see what's stopping Maginary World from still being qualitatively superior to the dreams inside of it, which would include the 5D ones like Cyber-space as a whole, the Phantom Ruby dimensions, and Sonic Rush's Eggmanland.
What made you change your mind from this all of a sudden?
ShakeResounding
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Probably for how long it's taking to get anything past 5-D accepted, can't say I blame him since it's a pretty tall task to prove superiority already.
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- #108
Time is never explicitly called a 4-D construct in Sonic, I checked.
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So what's the plan then? To get 5D accepted and only attempt something higher later on?
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- #110
Yeah, like I said, there may be some dissenters coming, trying to get 6-D accepted now will make the argument too cluttered.
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That means we have to think ahead when it comes to HOW 5D is accepted in this thread
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5D is accepted because maginaryworld rn, and whats being discussed now is about the other worlds being 5D
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Yeah, Maginaryworld being 5-D has already hit grace, this is deciding how far into 5-D it is (potentially countless)
MysticMania
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I'm sorry to ask here, but what does " R > F" mean?
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Reality-Fiction Transcendence
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Reality > fiction, essentially one world treating another as fictional.
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Well, it's pretty obvious to me that it's at least 6D, but I guess I can't complain too much. It's only a matter of time. We finally have tier 1 Sonic. Still, more should come from this revision than just that. Shouldn't Sonic's universe and the arabian nights be 2-C macrocosms? Both most likely of infinite size?
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Tbh I was moreso focusing on the dimensional tiering jump, I’ll circle back around to other stuff in future threads.
MysticMania
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Thank you for informing me! I appreciate it.
I do personally agree that the cosmology is greater than 5D. I also do feel that regular universes in the 'default' multiverse are likely, in some regard, higher than 3D, due to IDW and Secret Rings.
I do personally agree that the cosmology is greater than 5D. I also do feel that regular universes in the 'default' multiverse are likely, in some regard, higher than 3D, due to IDW and Secret Rings.
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