Attempting to upgrade the game Sonic cosmology

[JJSliderman]

Well, I decided to add it regardless, if people disagree with the 7-D argument at least I tried.

 

[Lenyo456]

It was admittedly much simpler for Archie Sonic.

5-D stuff, a dimension utterly beyond that, and another dimension utterly transcendent of that.

Bam, 7D.

Ian Flynn at the peak of "My favorite character has to be powerful"

 

[Greenshifter]

Well, I decided to add it regardless, if people disagree with the 7-D argument at least I tried.

You should bold that the 4th spatial dimension is infinite in size, it's important.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not convinced that Sonic's universe is 5-D. Containing 4-D structures within itself doesn't automatically make it 5-D, it's just 4-D on a greater scale. I strongly disagree on that part, at least.

As for the other stuff, I actually did plan to bring up the Eggmanland that "transcends dimensions" at some point, though I'm concerned about Ultima's revisions potentially introducing some 1-A tomfoolery into this (which would either make it 1-A or just nuke it entirely). There's a case to be made for it still being 5-D though, given that the English version specifies "this dimension," with Sonic's universe being 4-D.

Maginaryworld is interesting, involving 4 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension if I'm understanding this correctly. In addition, the End of Time brought up in the blog also interests me because it's a realm that continues to exist despite the Time Eater erasing space and time on a multiversal scale, which definitely helps when it comes to arguing it to be a higher dimension.

So... I think I'm in agreement with 5-D at the moment, though I'm iffy on anything higher.

 

[Brogeefrong]

I'm not convinced that Sonic's universe is 5-D. Containing 4-D structures within itself doesn't automatically make it 5-D, it's just 4-D on a greater scale. I strongly disagree on that part, at least.

As for the other stuff, I actually did plan to bring up the Eggmanland that "transcends dimensions" at some point, though I'm concerned about Ultima's revisions potentially introducing some 1-A tomfoolery into this (which would either make it 1-A or just nuke it entirely). There's a case to be made for it still being 5-D though, given that the English version specifies "this dimension," with Sonic's universe being 4-D.

Maginaryworld is interesting, involving 4 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension if I'm understanding this correctly. In addition, the End of Time brought up in the blog also interests me because it's a realm that continues to exist despite the Time Eater erasing space and time on a multiversal scale, which definitely helps when it comes to arguing it to be a higher dimension.

So... I think I'm in agreement with 5-D at the moment, though I'm iffy on anything higher.

What about the cyber space?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm aggressively neutral on Cyber Space

 

[ShakeResounding]

So, three things.

Firstly, I think the statements calling Maginaryworld as parallel should be removed. If not removed, then altered to make the arguments more clear. This is mainly because both Maginaryworld and Cyber Space are stated to run parallel to Sonic's world, but this kinda shoots itself in the foot.

• Maginaryworld can't run parallel to Sonics world for the sole fact that Cyber Space already is so. We know this isn't the case because Cyber Space is contained there, so they can't BOTH be parallel to Sonic's universe. (Credit to Peptocoptr on this one frfr, true homie)
• Cyber Space being parallel to Sonic's world is actually fine, because both would be 5-D in scope and has parallels to being such. Both Cyber Space and Sonic's universe is large enough to contain several other parallel worlds within it (for Cyber Space, the EggNet and United Federation digital spaces. For Sonic's universe, the Shatterverse fits the bill).

Secondly: You'll likely find a stronger case for a 5-D universe by using the Arabian Nights.

• The game opens when Sonic accidentally grabbing Shahra's Ring, in which she pops out from the book of Arabian Nights. She described Erazor's as absorbing the power of the book, making the pages themselves disappear as a result. Essentially, it's a fictitious world in Sonic's world while also being a real place made of stories bound together by the World Rings.
  • This makes the Arabian Nights an embedded timeline within Sonic's own, meaning Sonic's universe has a universe within it (in the case of Camelot, it's much more clearly a plain alternate reality since Merlina has to summon Sonic from another world in contrast to Sonic physically entering the book).
  • Even as Erazor destroyed the Arabian Nights during the final battle, specifically mentioning Sonic's world is next during the battle, that means the dimension embedded in Sonic's universe was essentially completely destroyed and still had no bearing on Sonic's universe.

Thirdly: If Sonic's Universe, Blaze's Universe, and the Arabian Nights become 5-D in scope, that implies Maginaryworld being able to contain several of those structures just as it can with ordinary universes.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'm not convinced that Sonic's universe is 5-D. Containing 4-D structures within itself doesn't automatically make it 5-D, it's just 4-D on a greater scale. I strongly disagree on that part, at least.

So you disagree that the tesseract shape in Eggman's Tower bumping up Sonic's universe an entire dimensional level upwards.

What do you think of my point that Sonic's universe has another universe embedded in it with its own separate flow of time (the Arabian Nights), and it's ability to sustain 5 separate full-sized universes and an infinite-sized nexus between them (the Void) after the universe was destroyed (the Shatterverse)?

 

[Greenshifter]

@JJSliderman Are there infinite tesseracts due to alternate timelines?

 

[ShakeResounding]

@JJSliderman Are there infinite tesseracts due to alternate timelines?

We have NOOOOO idea. That tesseract is shown only once in that fashion, a construct built by Eggman

 

[CloverDragon03]

So you disagree that the tesseract shape in Eggman's Tower bumping up Sonic's universe an entire dimensional level upwards.

What do you think of my point that Sonic's universe has another universe embedded in it with its own separate flow of time (the Arabian Nights), and it's ability to sustain 5 separate full-sized universes and an infinite-sized nexus between them (the Void) after the universe was destroyed (the Shatterverse)?

I think the only one of these that may point to Sonic's universe being 5-D is the Arabian Nights thing, since sustaining 5 universes and an infinite-sized nexus would just mean Sonic's universe is 2-C. The Arabian Nights thing, though, may make Sonic's universe a case of a hypertimeline though

I'm admittedly a bit torn atm

 

[Greenshifter]

We have NOOOOO idea. That tesseract is shown only once in that fashion, a construct built by Eggman

I mean logically speaking due to timeline branching.

Actually it probably doesn’t even matter, can just argue every timeline is big enough to contain it right?

 

[JJSliderman]

I think the only one of these that may point to Sonic's universe being 5-D is the Arabian Nights thing, since sustaining 5 universes and an infinite-sized nexus would just mean Sonic's universe is 2-C. The Arabian Nights thing, though, may make Sonic's universe a case of a hypertimeline though

I'm admittedly a bit torn atm

I’m unsure myself, I was under the impression that a greater timeline with a superior time axis that contains multiple unique space-time continuums within itself met the standards for hypertimeline. I’ve also never seen it argued that the storybook worlds are embedded timelines, more just alternate dimensions parallel to Sonic’s. I can adjust it if needed, I just assumed what was present in the Nights as is was enough for hypertimeline status.

I'm not convinced that Sonic's universe is 5-D. Containing 4-D structures within itself doesn't automatically make it 5-D, it's just 4-D on a greater scale. I strongly disagree on that part, at least.

Wouldn’t the same logic that makes Maginaryworld 5-D (having a four dimensional space with a temporal component) qualify it as 5-D? Or no.

 

[Greenshifter]

We’re gonna need a drawing of the cosmology very soon

 

[Greenshifter]

a greater timeline with a superior time axis

You haven’t really proven that part for Sonic’s universe. With Maginaryworld you mentioned everything taking place within a day which is super useful.

Wouldn’t the same logic that makes Maginaryworld 5-D (having a four dimensional space with a temporal component) qualify it as 5-D? Or no.

Only if you prove the 4th spatial dimension is infinite (or just very big) in size

 

[JJSliderman]

You haven’t really proven that part for Sonic’s universe. With Maginaryworld you mentioned everything taking place within a day which is super useful.

For Sonic’s universe I imagine it being 5-D could come from either two sources:

1. Containing four dimensional space along with a time axis, allowing for 5 dimensions in the same vein as Maginaryworld

2. Being an embedded timeline due to the Arabian Nights existing as a separate infinite sized temporal area that is treated as fiction in the context of Sonic’s world.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I think the only one of these that may point to Sonic's universe being 5-D is the Arabian Nights thing, since sustaining 5 universes and an infinite-sized nexus would just mean Sonic's universe is 2-C. The Arabian Nights thing, though, may make Sonic's universe a case of a hypertimeline though

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I was thinking the same thing regarding the Arabian Nights, but I'll admit this is out of my realm of expertise.

We’re gonna need a drawing of the cosmology very soon

This is probably a good idea. Just don't expect anything from me, I suck at art LMAO

I’ve also never seen it argued that the storybook worlds are embedded timelines, more just alternate dimensions parallel to Sonic’s. I can adjust it if needed, I just assumed what was present in the Nights as is was enough for hypertimeline status.

Well, Camelot certainly fits the bill as a regular alternate timeline since its clear Sonic was summoned to a parallel world. Secret Rings is where things get tricky, it's very clear the intention is that entered the book (helped by the end credits showing the book that they entered close) but is simultaneously treated as a real location.

 

[JJSliderman]

The embedded timeline angle is notable, let me add these to the blog/thread rq.

 

[Greenshifter]

2. Being an embedded timeline due to the Arabian Nights existing as a separate infinite sized temporal area that is treated as fiction in the context of Sonic’s world.

Pretty sure this just makes Sonic 4-5D in size, we probably don’t want to go there.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also looking through the blog again...

No, Camelot is not 5-D

 

[ShakeResounding]

Yeah Camelot shouldn't be equated to the Arabian Nights, they're in the same sub-series but the status of their worlds are kinda different.

Being summoned to an alternate reality vs. Having a being from inside a story taking you within the story itself. I don't blame JJ tho since at first glance they should be pretty similar at surface level. Oh well lol

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah they're similar conceptually (both being in this storybook sub-series) but that conceptual similarity doesn't really equate to a equal dimensionality

 

[Omegabronic]

I think the only one of these that may point to Sonic's universe being 5-D is the Arabian Nights thing, since sustaining 5 universes and an infinite-sized nexus would just mean Sonic's universe is 2-C. The Arabian Nights thing, though, may make Sonic's universe a case of a hypertimeline though

I'm admittedly a bit torn atm

well, if Sonic's universe has 4 spatial dimensions(Due to what a teseract is) and have 1 temporal dimension, it would qualify, right?

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah Camelot shouldn't be equated to the Arabian Nights, they're in the same sub-series but the status of their worlds are kinda different.

Being summoned to an alternate reality vs. Having a being from inside a story taking you within the story itself. I don't blame JJ tho since at first glance they should be pretty similar at surface level. Oh well lol

well, they are both equally "books" Sonic enters into, altho that doesn't mean they are equal i suppose, since the story inside the books are different

 

[JJSliderman]

Added some more stuff and clarification.

• Sonic’s world has R > F transcendence over the Arabian Nights, an extra spatial dimension over the Arabian Nights, and an extra temporal component on the Nights, leading to arguments for Sonic’s world ranging from 5-D to 6-D.
• Removed parallelism from Maginaryworld and parallelism of Camelot to the Nights.
• Updated PR dimension tiering to account for new Sonic universe size arguments.

God this is a huge mess.

 

[Greenshifter]

God this is a huge mess.

You’re taking a lot on your platter while relying heavily on a fairly new concept. Don’t beat yourself up over it.

 

[Lenyo456]

I can see 5-D for the argument, R>F and 6-D for the Solaris thing and such, but stop there

 

[JJSliderman]

I guess just to briefly summarize.

Individual dreams: 4-D
Cyberspace: 5-D
Sonic and Blaze’s world: 5-6 D
Phantom Ruby/Rush Eggmanland: 5-6 D
Maginaryworld: 5-7 D
White Space: Beyond everything else.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeet Eggmanland until you can use it to support something else, I don’t think people even agree it refers to spatial dimensions rather than just alternate universes.

Also shouldn’t Ruby be +1 compared to Sonic’s universe?

 

[Clown96]

So now i guess is the scaling?

 

[Eseseso]

I guess just to briefly summarize.

Individual dreams: 4-D
Cyberspace: 5-D
Sonic and Blaze’s world: 5-6 D
Phantom Ruby/Rush Eggmanland: 5-6 D
Maginaryworld: 5-7 D
White Space: Beyond everything else.

Don't forget 6-8D for Solaris.

 

[Clown96]

I guess just to briefly summarize.

Individual dreams: 4-D
Cyberspace: 5-D
Sonic and Blaze’s world: 5-6 D
Phantom Ruby/Rush Eggmanland: 5-6 D
Maginaryworld: 5-7 D
White Space: Beyond everything else.

So what is white space then 7d or higher

 

[Brogeefrong]

I guess just to briefly summarize.

Individual dreams: 4-D
Cyberspace: 5-D
Sonic and Blaze’s world: 5-6 D
Phantom Ruby/Rush Eggmanland: 5-6 D
Maginaryworld: 5-7 D
White Space: Beyond everything else.

How would maginary world scaling go?
At least 5D, possibly 6D to 7D?

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeet Eggmanland until you can use it to support something else, I don’t think people even agree it refers to spatial dimensions rather than just alternate universes.

Eggmanland is more in preparation for scaling but it is kind of pointless so, yeah can remove it.

Also shouldn’t Ruby be +1 compared to Sonic’s universe?

Ruby has no evidence for being anything besides being vaguely above Sonic’s world, same as Eggmanland.

How would maginary world scaling go?
At least 5D, possibly 6D to 7D?

That can work.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

So what is white space then 7d or higher

If i right, WS is more like outside of everything

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Added some more stuff and clarification.

• Sonic’s world has R > F transcendence over the Arabian Nights, an extra spatial dimension over the Arabian Nights, and an extra temporal component on the Nights, leading to arguments for Sonic’s world ranging from 5-D to 6-D.
• Removed parallelism from Maginaryworld and parallelism of Camelot to the Nights.
• Updated PR dimension tiering to account for new Sonic universe size arguments.

God this is a huge mess.

Why? I think that Sonic entering into the Arabians Nights would just count as immersion

 

[Eseseso]

I can see 5-D for the argument, R>F and 6-D for the Solaris thing and such, but stop there

Ah, another supporter of the "superdimensional truth"

 

[JJSliderman]

Why? I think that Sonic entering into the Arabians Nights would count just as immersion

They constantly treat the Arabian Nights as a lower realm, or a story, and the actions of the characters in the story are completely at the mercy of the text of the story. Unlike Camelot, where Sonic just got warped there by a portal.

 

[Omegabronic]

.

could you tag some staff into this? i am scared that the number of pages will eventually get too high and no staff will want to evaluate the thread

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

They constantly treat the Arabian Nights as a lower realm, or a story, and the actions of the characters in the story are completely at the mercy of the text of the story. Unlike Camelot, where Sonic just got warped there by a portal.

"Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc"