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Ultima_Reality

Ultima_Reality

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  • Rabbit2002
    Hello Ultimate. One question regarding tiering system
    If a verse considers Church-Kleene ordinal (Smallest Nonrecursive ordinal) to be so large that any/every smaller countable infinite is nothing but fiction/dream (Recursive ordinal, each larger than last as finite objects, both range and size)
    If so, what tier do Church-Kleene ordinal and Omega-sub one/Aleph-1 (first uncountable infinite ordinal) belong to? Elements are 4D universes (space-time)
    It related to some Verse (SCP)
    View previous comments…
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    You seem to misunderstand what I mean here, it's not a stack of ordered existence levels
    The context of this is SCP-4555, one of the justifications for tier Low-1C that you've accepted and are fine with since the "Omega" at the end of the article could refer to the First uncountable ordinal (Omega sub-one ). However this is wrong and the author has confirmed it is "much smaller", aka Church-Kleene ordinal, however there is some interesting thing here that it not only contains all ordinal numbers (Computable ordinal) smaller than it (they are not degrees of existence, just countably infinite sets of universes/infinite-sized multiverses/... which are absurdly and insanely HUGE, like Epsilon, Veblen Function, Psi,..) but also trivialize THEM as Fiction/dream in the same way Maha-Vinshu trivialized the Universe/Maya as a dream in Hinduism. A property that countably infinite sets (irl) cannot (However, in SCP they also possess all the properties of irl, the author even cites wiki to explain this) and according to the Tierning system and FAQ it is equivalent to the distance between Dimensions and so At Least Low-1C
    At least that's my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong
    And the question here is does this make the Church-Kleen ordinal set of 2A multiverses in SCP Low-1C? If it's Low-1C then what about larger countably infinite ordinals? The author also claims that the Church-Kleen ordinal is much smaller than First Uncountable ordinal/Omega-Sub One

    About scan : This And here
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    Since the Wikipedia the author cites not only implies such things exist, but also a hierarchy that is insanely huge and unimaginable (like inaccessibile, Mahlo cardinal, Weakly-Compact , stable ordinal,.. but as "Countable infinite sets") with Church-Kleen Ordinal being the smallest (you can think of it as the equivalent of an Omega-Sub one)
    And all of these are smaller than Omega-Sub, no matter how extensive it is, such as Aleph-1, Cardinal of countium (2^Aleph-0) is at least equivalent to it, and it also see all countable finite or infinite sets (as above) that are not infinitesimal but Equal to Zero, for example the difference between higher and lower dimensions in SCP (and There are Infinite amount of them). And there's even SCP-5800 which is literally the Universe that contains the Very Concepts of Aleph Numbers themselves such as the Predator Concept Entities, which always consumes smaller concepts/Alephs. Even Weakest/Smallest of these aka SCP-5712 is able to consume Axis/Vector concepts in Mathematics which underlie the difference in scale between the higher and lower dimensions and their existence (IE: The Concept of Higher/Lower Dimension). To be honest I have a project on SCP Upgrading, which could turn the verse into one of the most insane and non-Powerful instances in the entire Wiki (it's been a while since the project but I'm too lazy to do it)
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    It's been a long time, so, if you still want my opinion on this:

    The context of this is SCP-4555, one of the justifications for tier Low-1C that you've accepted and are fine with since the "Omega" at the end of the article could refer to the First uncountable ordinal (Omega sub-one ). However this is wrong and the author has confirmed it is "much smaller", aka Church-Kleene ordinal
    Click to expand...

    Ah, I see. Seems like I was mistaken in thinking "Omega" stood for the first uncountable ordinal, then. My bad, I suppose.

    however there is some interesting thing here that it not only contains all ordinal numbers (Computable ordinal) smaller than it (they are not degrees of existence, just countably infinite sets of universes/infinite-sized multiverses/... which are absurdly and insanely HUGE, like Epsilon, Veblen Function, Psi,..) but also trivialize THEM as Fiction/dream in the same way Maha-Vinshu trivialized the Universe/Maya as a dream in Hinduism. A property that countably infinite sets (irl) cannot (However, in SCP they also possess all the properties of irl, the author even cites wiki to explain this) and according to the Tierning system and FAQ it is equivalent to the distance between Dimensions and so At Least Low-1C
    At least that's my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong
    And the question here is does this make the Church-Kleen ordinal set of 2A multiverses in SCP Low-1C? If it's Low-1C then what about larger countably infinite ordinals? The author also claims that the Church-Kleen ordinal is much smaller than First Uncountable ordinal/Omega-Sub One
    Click to expand...
    It wouldn't necessarily say anything about the extent of Large Countable Ordinals in the context of SCP, no. Largely because ordinal numbers themselves are strictly used to specify the order in which the members of a sequence are arranged, and the cardinality of the elements themselves obviously isn't taken into account when it comes to that, nor is an element denoted by a further ordinal necessarily larger than the ones before it. They're a measure of "how far something is," as opposed to how big it is, in simple terms.

    For example, a banana can be visualized as an uncountably infinite set of points, and a countably infinite set of bananas can be arranged into an ordinal space of any order type beneath omega-one, but the set itself is still countable, taking only its cardinality into account, and the bananas are all relative to one another in size. This is a large part of the reason for why countably infinite ordinals and, for the matter, cardinalities beneath 2^2^aleph-0 in general aren't a reliable method of tiering on their own.

    So, TL;DR, Omega is probably Low 1-C due to dreaming all of the universes leading to its own creation into existence, yeah, but it being denoted by the Church-Kleene Ordinal in that sequence doesn't mean much.
    Gwirgisdagoat
    Hi, I have a question for you, if a character transcends individuality (even on a conceptual level) would that scale him anywhere on the tiering system?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    My first instinct would be rating that as Transduality, I guess, but I'd rather see some scans of it first.
    Gwirgisdagoat
    Gwirgisdagoat
    Yeah I don’t have any scans, it was just a question I had, I wondered if it was a scalable feat
    Comicgyal
    Hey Ultima are you knowledgeable on marvel and the cosmology? I have something I want to check.
    ThePirateKing777
    Hello Ultima! I have to say nice work on your World of Darkness Cosmology Blog. I do have some concerns about World of Darkness Cosmology though like for instance where does The One Giver fit in all this? I remember there with a page for it and now it's gone. It's seem to me that now neither Jehovah (Mage The Ascension), The Essential Divinity is the supreme being or it's Bondye_(World_of_Darkness).
    View previous comments…
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Bondye and Jehovah are both set-pieces, so to speak. They're effectively just template characters that a Storyteller can include in their game sessions as their own interpretation of the verse's Absolute. Pretty much just personifications of it that aren't inherently more valid than each other.
    ThePirateKing777
    ThePirateKing777
    I see. Thank you for your time.
    Frieza_force_soldier_100
    Frieza_force_soldier_100
    Speaking of which, why did the One Giver get deleted and not restored? I heard something about revisions, but that was eons ago.
    GreatIskandar14045
    Yo, if may I ask~
    Say, there is a multi-layered multiverse with each of 'em is infinite sized, and there's a qualitative superioty (not a dimensional transcendence yet) from one to another layer.

    Now, we know that busting them all at once is 2-A above baseline AP-wise but would that translate to range as well?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Not necessarily, since the same logic that makes it so multiple sets of infinite universes are equal to a single set also applies to the space they take up on their own. Unless the verse itself defines some concrete distance between those layers, it's pretty unquantifiable.

    Although, if there's a qualitative difference between each of those layers, why is it just 2-A to begin with, exactly?
    GreatIskandar14045
    GreatIskandar14045
    Say, the higher multiverse perceives the lower ones as weaker and more fragile structures (like how chain scaling works or something alike), but not yet as far as an uncountably infinite difference.
    LordNidhoggr
    Hey, sorry to bother you, but I have a quick Cthulhu Mythos question: how important is the aspect of infinite disassociation of archetypes into beings/forms in the lower planes of existence to the tier calculations of the Ultimate Gods/Archetypes/Supreme Archetype?
    View previous comments…
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Hey, sorry to bother you, but I have a quick Cthulhu Mythos question: how important is the aspect of infinite disassociation of archetypes into beings/forms in the lower planes of existence to the tier calculations of the Ultimate Gods/Archetypes/Supreme Archetype?
    Click to expand...
    Not very, since, in spite of existing above a number of undimensioned realms themselves, the other Archetypes' dissociation throughout reality seems to largely extend to the beings residing in dimensioned space. The exception to this, as far as I can ascertain, is the Supreme Archetype, which actually had angles extending as far as the Ultimate Void itself (Seeing as how the the state Carter attained past the Ultimate Gate was still considered just a facet of it.) In fact, given the emphasis placed on his connection to the Gates, their Guardians and the Key that unlocks them, it seems like all regions belonging to the "Outside" are exclusively facets of him.

    And I agree that the current state of the profiles is not very serviceable, yes, mostly in relation to the Archetypes' placement. I'm currently planning to tackle that in a CRT on its own, soon enough. (Part 1.5 of the current revisions to the verse, if you will)
    LordNidhoggr
    LordNidhoggr
    Er...yes? Is there something I misread or overlooked? Is there a different blog other than the explanation page linked on the popular pages tab? If I did, I would be grateful if you could point it out, because I can't find anything that addresses or disproves my argument. I don't disagree though about the shot in the dark, though, which is why I haven't made the CRT already. I was hoping to get some feedback to know whether or not I'd just be wasting people's time. I mean, to me it's pretty evident in the passage I quoted, and the lack of this being addressed in the blog should change even if nothing else does. It's an important bit of info that, at the very least, counts as useful information that is currently absent.

    The blog uses the disassociation of Carter as evidence for "the ultimate mystery." Not just that, it's (one of) the primary piece of evidence for it. But the passage I quoted clearly states that Carter would have gone through the same thing before crossing the Ultimate Gate except that 'Umr At-Tawil was preventing him from dissociating with his magic so that Carter would be stable enough to perform the necessary rituals to cross the Ultimate Gate with the Silver Key. It follows, then, that the Tier 0 associated with this phenomenon should apply to the lower First Gate, as it has the same properties, or enough of them, to qualify as the same level of existence. With that information, along with how we know the Ultimate Void transcends the First Gate by an incomprehensible amount. There's other evidence that supports this, too. In Hypnos, we learn that the void is "a place no dreams can reach," which would explain why Hypnos could pass through the extra-dense barrier but the narrator couldn't. Hypnos is a God, and specifically the God of Sleep; that means he almost certainly has a more permanent existence in the Dreamlands than just his astral essence when sleeping, but the narrator does not. They go as far as dreams will take them, ultimately coming to a barrier to the Ultimate Void, or a Void, and the narrator cannot pass because he is just the dream essence of a human, while Hypnos breaches the barrier as a God and goes to the next level.

    The Ultimate Void and the First Gate Extension clearly share more properties than they're currently explained as per the information blog, and I think given the nature of the evidence it should support a change in tiering. But I know I can be way off base, especially if I missed something. So, hopefully, someone with a vested interest can tell me what's wrong with it if there's a problem.
    LordNidhoggr
    LordNidhoggr
    Not very, since, in spite of existing above a number of undimensioned realms themselves, the other Archetypes' dissociation throughout reality seems to largely extend to the beings residing in dimensioned space. The exception to this, as far as I can ascertain, is the Supreme Archetype, which actually had angles extending as far as the Ultimate Void itself (Seeing as how the the state Carter attained past the Ultimate Gate was still considered just a facet of it.) In fact, given the emphasis placed on his connection to the Gates, their Guardians and the Key that unlocks them, it seems like all regions belonging to the "Outside" are exclusively facets of him.

    And I agree that the current state of the profiles is not very serviceable, yes, mostly in relation to the Archetypes' placement. I'm currently planning to tackle that in a CRT on its own, soon enough. (Part 1.5 of the current revisions to the verse, if you will)
    Click to expand...
    Ok, I definitely won't make a thread then. However, I don't think the extensions and disassociation of Carter is exclusive to him. I would still argue that the passage I quote shows that the Outer Extension still has properties associated with the Ultimate Mystery as of now. Unless I'm missing something, I think that the tiering should be bumped up for anything in and beyond the First Gate. Open to being wrong, of course.
    Hello, i have few questions, hope that you can help me.
    Why and how is space between universes 5D?
    Do we assume that space between universes is 5D by default?
    Would character who can affect, manipulate or destroy it be 5D by default?
    If not how do you prove it?
    Gohanblanco217
    Hi Ultima I jsut wanna ask does this scan qualify for Low 1-C? :

    8094707-11281802-e122-4d03-9e63-0246d9577ef2.jpeg
    Gohanblanco217
    Gohanblanco217
    Bump
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Not on its own, no. I did accept 1-B for the same verse based on a statement involving higher-dimensional spaces containing lower-dimensional ones, but that was because these spaces were full-blown universes, and so they couldn't possibly be interpreted as having finite mass, or as being devoid of it. This scan is a lot vaguer, and given that it refers to the Abyss as a spiritual world, it probably doesn't refer to something physical at all.

    If you're instead asking if the guy mentioned in that would be Low 1-C: No. Traversing through higher-dimensional spaces alone is not enough.
    Gohanblanco217
    Gohanblanco217
    but that was because these spaces were full-blown universes, and so they couldn't possibly be interpreted as having finite mass, or as being devoid of it
    Click to expand...

    Didn't understand anything in that part what do you mean by this.
    Dereck03
    Hey Ultima, I have a peculiar question, In the Maou Gakuin verse, there is a structure called the Silver Sea, it is a set of 99+ layers, each layer is a higher level of reality compared to the previous one and each layer has an infinite size and each layer contains Countless universes, each universe has an infinite size and has its own timeline, but some of the supporters of the verse had a doubt, the Silver Sea is catalogued as 2-B because each layer contains Countless Universes, but actually the size of the layers is infinite, that means that it can contain infinite structures in each layer, and we were wondering if this could count for affecting each Layer could guarantee a 2-A range, but keeping a 2-B AP, because they are not infinite universes, but countless, but the layers are of an infinite size able to contain infinite structures.
    Gohanblanco217
    Ultima I don't know if you are knowledgeable about Ben 10 verse but there species called Contumelia (the are also called 5D beings) and I want to know if this qualify for 5D existence since their existence is incomprehensible in the point of view of 3D minds so 3D beings cannot precive them due to the dimensionality difference so is this enough for them to have higher dimensional existence (5D)?
    Dagoth_OwO
    Hi Ultima, I was wondering how does one qualify for a "hypertimeline" of sorts? For example; if a larger timeline which is established as a history of it's own, contains universal space-times/histories inside it, would this qualify for a "hypertimeline" or just a larger space-time with multiple smaller space-times inside it. Atleast from what I've understood a "hypertimeline" must have an overarching flow of time, in which space-times are subjected to but of course I could be wrong.
    • Like
    Reactions: Ottavio_Merluzzo
    Ottavio_Merluzzo
    Ottavio_Merluzzo
    This stuff confused me before but with the last threads that have come around, it confuses me even more
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    It depends pretty heavily on the specifics of the cosmology, overall.

    For instance, take some hypothetical setting where altering the past of a timeline's past simply causes it to be rewritten, instead of giving birth to another timeline. If, somehow, all of these states of the timeline (Both the timeline before it was rewritten and the timeline after it was rewritten) are recorded within some other flow of time (Just like the normal time-axis records a static "picture" of the universe in each of its points), and thus able to be travelled through in spite of the aforementioned alterations obviously being retroactive, then, it is sensible to assume a second temporal dimension is at play here, yeah.

    Now, this is where an important distinction is made here: Namely, whether this temporal dimension is continuous or discrete.

    A discrete set, as the name implies, is basically one where each of its elements come in steps and are separated from one another by some gap. You can picture that by taking a pen and drawing a few spaced dots on a piece of paper (Pretty much like this: · · · · · ·...), and an actual example of a set like that would be the set of all natural numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5...)

    A continuous set, on the other hand, is one where there are no gaps between any of its elements, which you can picture by just drawing a line on a piece of paper instead of a bunch of points. An example of that would be the real numbers (Which you obviously can't enumerate, since there's always infinitely-many real numbers between any two numbers you decide to pick, and hence, no gaps between them)

    For obvious reasons, if something is explicitly stated to be a timeline or a spacetime continuum, the latter is what we stick to, and in fact, space and time being a continuous set is pretty much the default assumption in physics, and thus, if something is explicitly stated to be a flow of time, it's safe to assume it abides by the latter option.

    This is a key point for Low 2-C in particular: If the flow of time is continuous, then it has uncountably infinite points, and therefore, contains uncountably-many copies of the 3-D universe.

    However, if there are no explicit statements affirming the existence of a second temporal axis, and instead just an implication that something like one must exist, then it being discrete becomes a possibility. For example, take any verse where a timeline is only created once someone time travels; in such a case, the second temporal dimension would only advance in discrete steps, and thus, it wouldn't really amount to much, tiering-wise.

    So, yeah, arguing for that without explicit statements is pretty hard.
    Dagoth_OwO
    Dagoth_OwO
    I think I'm starting to get it now. Thanks for the clarification. I really appreciate it🙏🙏
    Delta333
    Hi Ultima,I have a question about tier 1:

    Should it be one to two higher levels of uncountably infinity greater than a standard universal model to reach low 1-C instead of just one to two higher levels of infinity?From what I understand simply being infinitely greater would not be enough,just like 2-A being infinitely bigger than low 2-C but never close to tier 1,so I think uncountably infinite is more correct
    Planck69
    Hello, Ultima. I made a cosmology blog and I was wondering if a certain part of it would qualify for a "hypertimeline" i.e. a Low 1-C structure.

    I hope you can give input here or on the blog when you have time.

    vsbattles.fandom.com

    Cosmology (Lord Xue Ying)

    vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
    View previous comments…
    Planck69
    Planck69
    In the context of the setting, they are. Each cosmos has its own River of Time and cosmoses are just small structures in the wider Primal Chaos Void, the present era of Cue Ying's Origin World. Though, there's not much else talked about regarding it. I'll check out any more quotes.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Is there any quote explicitly showing each cosmos has its own River of Time, though? If it's in the blog, then I probably missed it.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    There was IIRC, must've forgotten to put it in the blog, I'll go look for it and post it here.

    Though, that's the general implication at least. The River of Time doesn't contain the lifeforms of other cosmoses, which it would if it was shared. It's synonymous with the law system of a cosmos, of which each cosmos has its own. Flows of time vary etc.
    BluudyManikin777
    Sup, I was wondering; if a character has the same number of dimensions within their existence as the temporal dimension of the verse, would that count as Immeasurable speed?
    View previous comments…
    BluudyManikin777
    BluudyManikin777
    bump
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Hm. Forgot about this post. Sorry for that.

    So if a character’s existence is 5D, and the temporal dimension of the verse is explicitly 5D as well, is that Immeasurable? I mean, since this example character has 5 dimensions in its physiology, it would automatically be assumed it can move along 5 dimensional axes right?
    Click to expand...
    Not necessarily, no, since, again, those 5 dimensions in which they exist could be fully spatial, too, and thus be bound by a a single time dimension, just like lower-dimensional beings, thus making them subject to S = D/T. It's a different story if they explicitly exist directly in the time axis and can move through it at will, but this would need a direct statement, and wouldn't be the default assumption.
    BluudyManikin777
    BluudyManikin777
    So basically, having the same number of dimensions in one’s own physiology as a temporal dimension is Immeasurable, right? I kept getting told that having a certain number of dimensions doesn’t mean the character in question can move along those same number of dimensional axes. It really made no sense, because we as 3D beings literally move freely in 3 dimensions just by existing
    Dagoth_OwO
    Hi Ultima, could you give your opinion on this thread. To give a brief summary - a very certain demon fellow we know and love, absorbed and physically merged himself with a 4-D black hole and it became an actual part/extension of his physical being, so wouldn't this count as Higher-Dimensional Existence?
    Rabbit2002
    Hi Ultima
    Sorry for these very stupid questions
    Is it possible for an infinite number of Tier 0 characters to exist in a certain verse? And even with enough evidence to prove they are indeed Tier 0 would it be accepted ?(I should have posted this to QA, but this is asking for your opinion). Even if these characters have only scaling, because they lack hax (same as Xeno goku but tier 0) or non smurf and glass canon (physically 10B or 10A)?
    And this verse is not a joke, fanfic or made up just for the sake of Debate and power bullshit like the Suggsverse (something on the wiki, be it Dragon ball or whatever)
    Emirp sumitpo
    Emirp sumitpo
    I'm not ultima but the Cthulhu mythos has an infinite amount of tier 0s via the archetypes, although that might change with the revision
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    It is possible, yeah.
    Rabbit2002
    Hi ultima, sorry if this bothers you
    It's just that I have three questions regarding the Tiering system which are
    1. Destroy Aleph 2 universes as Low-1A or Low-1C (6D). Note that context and verse are the Set of real numbers and any other set whose cardinal is 2^Aleph 0 is greater than aleph 1 (unknown)
    2. If a verse has Higher realms/planes of existence and in the lowest plane of existence already contains both 3D universes and 2D pocket universes is a cross section of 3D. So is the difference between lower and higher planes of existence greater than the difference between dimensions? If so, what is their tier?
    3. As for the Composite hierarchy and the distinction between fiction and reality, if the entities in the Higher layer consider the stories or realities of the Lower layer to be nothing more than just fiction and tiny dimensions, even consider the difference between the sizes of each of them to be non-existent, so any story from finite size and setting of an ordinary person's life to the entire infinite set of multiverses (each is 2A) is the same, differ only in complexity. The "tiny dimensions" differ only in scale for entities in the higher layer in terms of numbers (i.e. 2 stories > 1 story regardless of the size and spacetime of the two sides), and even that distinction is even more meaningless if there is a story that contains all of them. So does each story have a Low-1C level in terms of nature? And the higher layer entity is 6D or just 5D? Also, this has to do with a verse that you made a revision (Supernatural)
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Destroy Aleph 2 universes as Low-1A or Low-1C (6D). Note that context and verse are the Set of real numbers and any other set whose cardinal is 2^Aleph 0 is greater than aleph 1 (unknown)
    Click to expand...
    Hard to say here, since Low 1-A is specifically supposed to be a space of dimension 2^aleph-0, which we just so happen to equate to aleph-1 by assuming the Continuum Hypothesis to be true, for simplicity's sake. If we just don't know if aleph-2 is equal to or larger than the cardinality of the continuum under the system which the verse presents, it's pretty complicated to tier. Closest thing I can think of would be an absurdly high level of 2-A, since Low 1-C is likewise supposed to be reached by a set of universes with cardinality 2^aleph-0, too.

    If a verse has Higher realms/planes of existence and in the lowest plane of existence already contains both 3D universes and 2D pocket universes is a cross section of 3D. So is the difference between lower and higher planes of existence greater than the difference between dimensions?
    Click to expand...
    Not necessarily, no, since, in this case, we'd just scale that above the size of the largest construct shown to be contained in the lower plane in question. So, a realm that stands immediately above it would just be Low 2-C with optimal assumptions.

    As for the Composite hierarchy and the distinction between fiction and reality, if the entities in the Higher layer consider the stories or realities of the Lower layer to be nothing more than just fiction and tiny dimensions, even consider the difference between the sizes of each of them to be non-existent, so any story from finite size and setting of an ordinary person's life to the entire infinite set of multiverses (each is 2A) is the same, differ only in complexity.
    Click to expand...
    Not necessarily, no, unless there's more context to that difference: If, say, the difference between a higher layer and a lower one is explicitly greater than the difference between higher and lower-dimensional spaces, then it can be higher, yeah.
    Cosmic_King_of_SAO
    Hey, Ultima.
    If you don't mind me asking, is it possible to surpass the Mathiverse?
    I know you might be busy so take your time to answer.
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