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Ultima_Reality

Ultima_Reality

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  • Dereck03
    Hey Ultima, I have a peculiar question, In the Maou Gakuin verse, there is a structure called the Silver Sea, it is a set of 99+ layers, each layer is a higher level of reality compared to the previous one and each layer has an infinite size and each layer contains Countless universes, each universe has an infinite size and has its own timeline, but some of the supporters of the verse had a doubt, the Silver Sea is catalogued as 2-B because each layer contains Countless Universes, but actually the size of the layers is infinite, that means that it can contain infinite structures in each layer, and we were wondering if this could count for affecting each Layer could guarantee a 2-A range, but keeping a 2-B AP, because they are not infinite universes, but countless, but the layers are of an infinite size able to contain infinite structures.
    Gohanblanco217
    Ultima I don't know if you are knowledgeable about Ben 10 verse but there species called Contumelia (the are also called 5D beings) and I want to know if this qualify for 5D existence since their existence is incomprehensible in the point of view of 3D minds so 3D beings cannot precive them due to the dimensionality difference so is this enough for them to have higher dimensional existence (5D)?
    Dagoth_OwO
    Hi Ultima, I was wondering how does one qualify for a "hypertimeline" of sorts? For example; if a larger timeline which is established as a history of it's own, contains universal space-times/histories inside it, would this qualify for a "hypertimeline" or just a larger space-time with multiple smaller space-times inside it. Atleast from what I've understood a "hypertimeline" must have an overarching flow of time, in which space-times are subjected to but of course I could be wrong.
    • Like
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    Ottavio_Merluzzo
    Ottavio_Merluzzo
    This stuff confused me before but with the last threads that have come around, it confuses me even more
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    It depends pretty heavily on the specifics of the cosmology, overall.

    For instance, take some hypothetical setting where altering the past of a timeline's past simply causes it to be rewritten, instead of giving birth to another timeline. If, somehow, all of these states of the timeline (Both the timeline before it was rewritten and the timeline after it was rewritten) are recorded within some other flow of time (Just like the normal time-axis records a static "picture" of the universe in each of its points), and thus able to be travelled through in spite of the aforementioned alterations obviously being retroactive, then, it is sensible to assume a second temporal dimension is at play here, yeah.

    Now, this is where an important distinction is made here: Namely, whether this temporal dimension is continuous or discrete.

    A discrete set, as the name implies, is basically one where each of its elements come in steps and are separated from one another by some gap. You can picture that by taking a pen and drawing a few spaced dots on a piece of paper (Pretty much like this: · · · · · ·...), and an actual example of a set like that would be the set of all natural numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5...)

    A continuous set, on the other hand, is one where there are no gaps between any of its elements, which you can picture by just drawing a line on a piece of paper instead of a bunch of points. An example of that would be the real numbers (Which you obviously can't enumerate, since there's always infinitely-many real numbers between any two numbers you decide to pick, and hence, no gaps between them)

    For obvious reasons, if something is explicitly stated to be a timeline or a spacetime continuum, the latter is what we stick to, and in fact, space and time being a continuous set is pretty much the default assumption in physics, and thus, if something is explicitly stated to be a flow of time, it's safe to assume it abides by the latter option.

    This is a key point for Low 2-C in particular: If the flow of time is continuous, then it has uncountably infinite points, and therefore, contains uncountably-many copies of the 3-D universe.

    However, if there are no explicit statements affirming the existence of a second temporal axis, and instead just an implication that something like one must exist, then it being discrete becomes a possibility. For example, take any verse where a timeline is only created once someone time travels; in such a case, the second temporal dimension would only advance in discrete steps, and thus, it wouldn't really amount to much, tiering-wise.

    So, yeah, arguing for that without explicit statements is pretty hard.
    Dagoth_OwO
    Dagoth_OwO
    I think I'm starting to get it now. Thanks for the clarification. I really appreciate it🙏🙏
    Delta333
    Hi Ultima,I have a question about tier 1:

    Should it be one to two higher levels of uncountably infinity greater than a standard universal model to reach low 1-C instead of just one to two higher levels of infinity?From what I understand simply being infinitely greater would not be enough,just like 2-A being infinitely bigger than low 2-C but never close to tier 1,so I think uncountably infinite is more correct
    Planck69
    Hello, Ultima. I made a cosmology blog and I was wondering if a certain part of it would qualify for a "hypertimeline" i.e. a Low 1-C structure.

    I hope you can give input here or on the blog when you have time.

    vsbattles.fandom.com

    Cosmology (Lord Xue Ying)

    vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
    View previous comments…
    Planck69
    Planck69
    In the context of the setting, they are. Each cosmos has its own River of Time and cosmoses are just small structures in the wider Primal Chaos Void, the present era of Cue Ying's Origin World. Though, there's not much else talked about regarding it. I'll check out any more quotes.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Is there any quote explicitly showing each cosmos has its own River of Time, though? If it's in the blog, then I probably missed it.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    There was IIRC, must've forgotten to put it in the blog, I'll go look for it and post it here.

    Though, that's the general implication at least. The River of Time doesn't contain the lifeforms of other cosmoses, which it would if it was shared. It's synonymous with the law system of a cosmos, of which each cosmos has its own. Flows of time vary etc.
    BluudyManikin777
    Sup, I was wondering; if a character has the same number of dimensions within their existence as the temporal dimension of the verse, would that count as Immeasurable speed?
    View previous comments…
    BluudyManikin777
    BluudyManikin777
    bump
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Hm. Forgot about this post. Sorry for that.

    So if a character’s existence is 5D, and the temporal dimension of the verse is explicitly 5D as well, is that Immeasurable? I mean, since this example character has 5 dimensions in its physiology, it would automatically be assumed it can move along 5 dimensional axes right?
    Click to expand...
    Not necessarily, no, since, again, those 5 dimensions in which they exist could be fully spatial, too, and thus be bound by a a single time dimension, just like lower-dimensional beings, thus making them subject to S = D/T. It's a different story if they explicitly exist directly in the time axis and can move through it at will, but this would need a direct statement, and wouldn't be the default assumption.
    BluudyManikin777
    BluudyManikin777
    So basically, having the same number of dimensions in one’s own physiology as a temporal dimension is Immeasurable, right? I kept getting told that having a certain number of dimensions doesn’t mean the character in question can move along those same number of dimensional axes. It really made no sense, because we as 3D beings literally move freely in 3 dimensions just by existing
    Dagoth_OwO
    Hi Ultima, could you give your opinion on this thread. To give a brief summary - a very certain demon fellow we know and love, absorbed and physically merged himself with a 4-D black hole and it became an actual part/extension of his physical being, so wouldn't this count as Higher-Dimensional Existence?
    Rabbit2002
    Hi Ultima
    Sorry for these very stupid questions
    Is it possible for an infinite number of Tier 0 characters to exist in a certain verse? And even with enough evidence to prove they are indeed Tier 0 would it be accepted ?(I should have posted this to QA, but this is asking for your opinion). Even if these characters have only scaling, because they lack hax (same as Xeno goku but tier 0) or non smurf and glass canon (physically 10B or 10A)?
    And this verse is not a joke, fanfic or made up just for the sake of Debate and power bullshit like the Suggsverse (something on the wiki, be it Dragon ball or whatever)
    Emirp sumitpo
    Emirp sumitpo
    I'm not ultima but the Cthulhu mythos has an infinite amount of tier 0s via the archetypes, although that might change with the revision
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    It is possible, yeah.
    Rabbit2002
    Hi ultima, sorry if this bothers you
    It's just that I have three questions regarding the Tiering system which are
    1. Destroy Aleph 2 universes as Low-1A or Low-1C (6D). Note that context and verse are the Set of real numbers and any other set whose cardinal is 2^Aleph 0 is greater than aleph 1 (unknown)
    2. If a verse has Higher realms/planes of existence and in the lowest plane of existence already contains both 3D universes and 2D pocket universes is a cross section of 3D. So is the difference between lower and higher planes of existence greater than the difference between dimensions? If so, what is their tier?
    3. As for the Composite hierarchy and the distinction between fiction and reality, if the entities in the Higher layer consider the stories or realities of the Lower layer to be nothing more than just fiction and tiny dimensions, even consider the difference between the sizes of each of them to be non-existent, so any story from finite size and setting of an ordinary person's life to the entire infinite set of multiverses (each is 2A) is the same, differ only in complexity. The "tiny dimensions" differ only in scale for entities in the higher layer in terms of numbers (i.e. 2 stories > 1 story regardless of the size and spacetime of the two sides), and even that distinction is even more meaningless if there is a story that contains all of them. So does each story have a Low-1C level in terms of nature? And the higher layer entity is 6D or just 5D? Also, this has to do with a verse that you made a revision (Supernatural)
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Destroy Aleph 2 universes as Low-1A or Low-1C (6D). Note that context and verse are the Set of real numbers and any other set whose cardinal is 2^Aleph 0 is greater than aleph 1 (unknown)
    Click to expand...
    Hard to say here, since Low 1-A is specifically supposed to be a space of dimension 2^aleph-0, which we just so happen to equate to aleph-1 by assuming the Continuum Hypothesis to be true, for simplicity's sake. If we just don't know if aleph-2 is equal to or larger than the cardinality of the continuum under the system which the verse presents, it's pretty complicated to tier. Closest thing I can think of would be an absurdly high level of 2-A, since Low 1-C is likewise supposed to be reached by a set of universes with cardinality 2^aleph-0, too.

    If a verse has Higher realms/planes of existence and in the lowest plane of existence already contains both 3D universes and 2D pocket universes is a cross section of 3D. So is the difference between lower and higher planes of existence greater than the difference between dimensions?
    Click to expand...
    Not necessarily, no, since, in this case, we'd just scale that above the size of the largest construct shown to be contained in the lower plane in question. So, a realm that stands immediately above it would just be Low 2-C with optimal assumptions.

    As for the Composite hierarchy and the distinction between fiction and reality, if the entities in the Higher layer consider the stories or realities of the Lower layer to be nothing more than just fiction and tiny dimensions, even consider the difference between the sizes of each of them to be non-existent, so any story from finite size and setting of an ordinary person's life to the entire infinite set of multiverses (each is 2A) is the same, differ only in complexity.
    Click to expand...
    Not necessarily, no, unless there's more context to that difference: If, say, the difference between a higher layer and a lower one is explicitly greater than the difference between higher and lower-dimensional spaces, then it can be higher, yeah.
    Cosmic_King_of_SAO
    Hey, Ultima.
    If you don't mind me asking, is it possible to surpass the Mathiverse?
    I know you might be busy so take your time to answer.
    liluzivert
    Yo Ultima, do you think this can qualify for tier 1?
    View previous comments…
    liluzivert
    liluzivert
    Also, would you also get immeasurable for surpassing space and time?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Also, would you also get immeasurable for surpassing space and time?
    Click to expand...
    I'm not too sure about that, honestly. While, yes, the world which Mario accessed through Cutout is described as transcending the boundaries of space and time, the perspective which he accesses while using the ability seems to be purely spatial, and doesn't seem to include the temporal part of the universe at all, seeing as he clearly isn't witnessing past and future events in the timeline while using it.

    This connects to my uncertainties regarding Low 1-C, too. Is there anything reinforcing the statement on spacetime transcendence here?
    liluzivert
    liluzivert
    Actually yes. 4D would actually contradict the idea of it being a spatial dimension superior to time. If they wanted to imply that he was 4D, they would have said he's either crossing space time or going outside of it, but they use the specific kanji "cho" to say he is completely superior. It's clear they are referring to spatial dimensions (considering it's constant throughout the series), so it would be odd that Mario is stated to be superior to time and space dimensionally without actually being more than it.

    I was gonna add this to my blog, but I think a better interpretation of 5D is Mario viewing his entire world as a unrealistic sheet as opposed to a real place. A reality-fiction difference. Seeing as how it falls down on the screen for him to edit, as well as the fact that just cutting spacetime like paper specifically is unrealistic (even in this series.)

    The idea that it's flat too is something i kinda want to drop, because it seems confusing to people, but I'd also argue that 4D wouldn't work there either, if he was 4D then he would be able to see his timeline as space. It actually makes no sense for him to view a world that is a 4D space time continuum and then see the entire thing as flat. If he was going to a different 4D universe without viewing his world then I could see it, but here, seeing the entire world as flat as opposed to seeing time as a space means that 4D doesn't really work here.

    As a whole though, there's also multiple statements of the same "transcend time and space, transcend dimensions". And interdimensional range gets contradicted by both statements and visuals.
    Oliver_de_jesus
    hey Ultima, is this maybe Doctor who tier 1 statement

    Next up, we have the fact that pi is also a transcendental number. The concept of a transcendental number is quite a modern one given that it was only first defined in the 18th Century by a well-known mathematician called Leonard Euler (who incidentally also has an irrational number named after him – the number e).
    Click to expand...

    Transcendental numbers are briefly mentioned in a Big Finish Main Range audio drama starring the Sixth Doctor called …ish (2002), written by Phil Pascoe, who incidentally has also recently published The Black Archive entry on the Sixth Doctor serial Timelash. The script itself is quite a verbose one and is sure to appeal to any budding lexicographers as the plot itself involves a character trying to discover the ‘Omniverbum’, a word that is infinitely long and transcends all meaning. Anyone who uncovers its existence would then cease to exist as they fall victim to, and I mean this quite precisely, a literal black hole. However, Phil’s script rather unfortunately gets the definition… not quite correct. Here’s what one of the characters states near the beginning of Part Three:
    Click to expand...
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Late, but, if input is still needed: No. Transcendental numbers aren't proof of Tier 1 on their own, if that's what you're asking about.
    Oliver_de_jesus
    Oliver_de_jesus
    Thanks for your time
    Peptocoptr27
    You missed a very important detail in this thread that completely puts Low 1-C Kirby into perspective. People are starting to agree with it more and more.
    Can you come back to the thread and check this out please? No hurry though.
    Rabbit2002
    Hi ultima
    Two questions about Higher dimensions of time that I hope you can answer for me
    1/ A "large" timeline containing both versions of the current timeline and the erased timeline (because someone rewind time in that timeline to create the current timeline or something that erased it) as those things exist in points/periods of time already exists on that "big" timeline. So is this large timeline eligible for Higher temporal dimension and L1C ?
    2/ A world where all timelines and all of Their past/future (The flow of time) gathers as its normal space or something on it, so doing heavy damage in this world will destroy all those timelines and All Rifts of time (which are Literally rifts of time and also isolated Spacetime/history) regardless of size from more than one planet to an entire 2A multiverse always appear in this world as Finite spheres in space (not its portals, but the literal Rifts themselves) and things that take time to recover (ex: Dragon balls in the DB) can all be used intermittently customary in this World for the reasons mentioned above. So is this world a Higher temporal dimension and eligible for L1C?
    Xearsay
    Hello Ultima. I was wondering, do these two scans justify higher dimensions within DC having a reality to fiction difference over the lower?

    The first scan features Allen Adam comparing how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective to how we see a comic book. Within the analogy he compares the perception of the universe to being flat like a comic book, and with moving through time being similar to flipping through comic book pages.
    Scan 1

    The second scan features a group sixth dimensional beings called the Cathexis who see the lower reality across flat screens.
    Scan 2
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    I'd say so, yeah. Captain Adam stating a higher-dimensional being could pick up a lower-dimensional continuum like a comicbook filled with weightless drawings is as blatant as you can get in that regard.
    Xearsay
    Xearsay
    Ok, thank you.
    InfiniteCosmology
    Hello sir, sorry if I am disturbing you at this hour, can you tell me if a huge expanse 'X' is composed of 99+ timelines (each containing countless number of universes and on a much higher level of existence than the previous one), then will the expanse 'X' shall qualify as a low 1C structure or a 2B structure?
    Feel free to answer this question at anytime you want. It will be a huge help. Thank you.
    Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
    Hey ultima, i have a question. If a verse has a mahlo cardinal number of layers stacked, and each layer sees the lower layer as fiction, what tier is it?
    • Like
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    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Transcending the concept of dimensions is a statement whose tier depends on what the verse has demonstrated. We don't usually include higher cardinals in them, since they tend to exceed the syntax of the universe of sets in which lower ones are defined, and thus need to have their existence declared as a separate axiom. So, we usually just restrict it to 1-A or so. High 1-A if the verse entertains the notion of spaces with dimension 2^2^2-aleph-0 and onwards.
    Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
    Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
    Then, if a verse has shown a mahlo cardinal number of spatial dimensions, and THEN a statement saying saying "this character transcends the concept of dimensions" That will qualify for tier 0, correct?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Yeah, pretty much.
    Comicgyal
    Hey Ultima, can I ask you a question about universal space times? It’s being brought up in a thread, and is stopping progress. Only if you’re free, if not thanks anyways.
    View previous comments…
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Sure, ask away.
    Comicgyal
    Comicgyal
    Thanks, the standards for it are still a bit confusing to me, but I think I’ve figured some stuff out.

    Anyways thanks to our translator, we’ve been able to get this statement from Bayonettas guidebook:

    “Aesir possessed the power of being an "observer of history", and was said to live in a dimension different from ours, observing history from a perspective that transcends time and space, where multiple possibilities overlap simultaneously.”

    I know a statement saying a character transcends time and space isn’t enough, but it’s a small start given what the quote is referring to. Since the dimension exists outside of their space time, and exists above it.

    So what other pieces am I missing exactly, to make the argument more sound?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Late again, but, whatever.

    In any case, to prove Low 1-C, you'd at least have to show that the dimension in question exceeds the spacetime continuum in some way, instead of just remaining outside of it, as you obviously can exist apart from some structure without being larger than it. The Tiering System FAQ page elaborates a bit on that, so, you could probably check it out.

    Without more context, this statement is just Cosmic Awareness, from what I gather, given that it doesn't seem to be talking about some superior state of being which Aesir exists in, but just to some ability that allows him to perceive the timeline as a monolith and therefore observe all of history, instead of having his point of view restricted to individual moments in time.
    Rabbit2002
    Hi Ultima, a question regarding the latest SCP CRT
    Does an infinite number of multiverses (infinite number of universes in each multiverse) qualify for higher tiers like L1C if Verse treats it to be really infinitely larger than the Single infinite multiverse as finite objects? Do the same with larger sets qualify for higher tiers? Example: Epislon zero universes will be which Tier? (note they have been treated as Truly Greater than the lower Ordinal numbers as comparison between finite objects insted normal countably infinite sets)
    View previous comments…
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Why is it just higher level 2A? I mean not that the FAQ stated that any difference in AP at 2A should be Uncountably infinite and whether this does not have to blur the boundary between Above baseline 2A and Low-1C when both are mandatory. uncountably infinite larger than 2A baseline? Why would we treat Space to contain an infinite multiverse and claim the "transcendent" structure it contains as solid L1C like Blazblue instead of these instances? Is there an explanation for this (some examples include DND and SCP)
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, to clarify: The blurb you've quoted isn't really referring to AP differences within 2-A, but AP differences in general; there is no such thing as "uncountably infinitely above baseline 2-A" in the Tiering System, because that's just what Low 1-C is, at the minimum.

    Assuming there are two layers according to the composite hierarchy, the upper layer not only considers the lower layer (containing the Low-1A cosmology) as fiction but also transcends it to the point of any comparative concept like "stronger" and " weaker "is meaningless and cannot be applied. Will this grant Higher Layer H1A?
    Click to expand...

    Not on its own, no.

    Is there a Cardinal or Ordinal number corresponding to Tier 0 or higher than the H1A baseline?
    Click to expand...
    That'd be a Mahlo Cardinal, as it currently stands. But, I suppose you could also see Tier 0 as being just a proper class defined within the framework of a set theory in which the existence of inaccessible cardinals is included as an axiom.
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    Hi can I ask you a question if the Set of real numbers/C is not equal to Aleph 1 but instead is equal to or much greater than Aleph numbers greater than Aleph 1 like Paul Cohen's axiom. So are C number of universes L1C or L1A or even 1A+ ? If it's L1C does this devalue the other Alephs? (aka Aleph 1 universes is still 2A but much higher than baseline)
    "
    "A point of view which the author [Cohen] feels may eventually come to be accepted is that CH is obviously false. The main reason one accepts the axiom of infinity is probably that we feel it absurd to think that the process of adding only one set at a time can exhaust the entire universe. Similarly with the higher axioms of infinity. Now {\displaystyle \aleph _{1}}
    \aleph _{1}
    is the cardinality of the set of countable ordinals, and this is merely a special and the simplest way of generating a higher cardinal. The set {\displaystyle C}
    C
    [the continuum] is, in contrast, generated by a totally new and more powerful principle, namely the power set axiom. It is unreasonable to expect that any description of a larger cardinal which attempts to build up that cardinal from ideas deriving from the replacement axiom can ever reach {\displaystyle C}
    C
    .

    Thus {\displaystyle C}
    C
    is greater than {\displaystyle \aleph _{n},\aleph _{\omega },\aleph _{a}}
    \aleph_n, \aleph_\omega, \aleph_a
    , where {\displaystyle a=\aleph _{\omega }}
    a = \aleph_\omega
    , etc. This point of view regards {\displaystyle C}
    C
    as an incredibly rich set given to us by one bold new axiom, which can never be approached by any piecemeal process of construction. Perhaps later generations will see the problem more clearly and express themselves more eloquently."

    Paul Cohen - Wikipedia

    en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    Some additions: I'm asking this isn't just an assumption, it's related to something like SCP
    This quote has been considered L1A, but I think it could be higher due to the use of The Real Space which heavily implies is the set of real numbers and also contain uncountable infinite number of Aleph numbers (Aleph0, Aleph 1, Aleph2,...)
    "Unfortunately, the world is not dynamic. Everything's already over, I've already read it. All of this? It's just going through the motions. This is just a tiny subset of the world at large. I'd call it the 'real' word, but it's just as real as we are in here. The larger space that we're in… much larger, in fact, uncountably infinite expanses in uncountably infinite dimensions… we fill that space. And yet, here, we're discretised. Collapsed into words and nothing more, even if we're something so much greater.

    See, sometimes the infinite can be reduced to something simpler. Look here: ℵ0 and ℵ1 and ℵ2 and so on. Simple, yes, but they can each contain the world. You can glimpse it, if you look hard enough. Just breathe in, breathe out. Think about infinity. Not just countable, but uncountable, and the dimension of it goes up into uncountability too. If you think you've really understood it, you aren't thinking hard enough. Sure, zoom past the pitstops. 5, 23, 3333. They're all beautiful, but so horrendously finite. Fly past it all and keep going and going. Minds have died wishing for a fraction of what I can see. So breathe slowly, and think about it.

    Really think about it, and the world seems like nothing.

    I hope you've been paying attention."
    Teezar
    Hey ultima.
    They are statements of parallel worlds and infinite dimensions in a verse/boundless dimensions was also stated.
    And time again the verse is stated to have an infinity of dimensions.
    The writer of this stated all universe have infinite higher dimensions.
    Another time,its stated as infinity of dimensions...worlds beyond ...worlds beyond worlds.
    Another scan says they are innumerable dimensions in the universe.
    Which the writer says are higher dimensions.

    Another scan says all things are layered on themselves endlessly,and perception twist around it's own axis until it is blinded by .fullness,crippled by infinite repetition.

    the context of the bold ones depends on the context once you see the scans.

    Sorry about my bad English tho.

    But I want you to help me scale this cosmology please.
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