Possible Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation upgrade - Maou Gakuin

[imZer0Null]

Hello. This CRT was created to possibly upgrade the Heavenly Father God's order to a type 1 concept, and therefore upgrade Anos Voldigoad's concept manip to type 1, as he can manipulate and destroy that order.

Thanks to @RamadhanDayYet for helping me with this.

1. Independent Universal Concept: Such concepts are completely independent from the reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

- Concept Manipulation Page

Possible Type 1 Concept:

Order

"The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them." ~ LN Keyword

"Gods are the race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful." ~ LN Keyword

"The order of the world, the laws of the world, or providence, are embodied by the Guardian Deities." ~ WN Chapter 29

"It is the reason why this world is the world it is. Why is a bird a bird, why is a demon a demon? The heavens send down rain to moisten the earth and nurture the trees. If you draw a magic circle and put magic power into the magic formula, the light will come on. These are what we call the laws of nature, the laws of magic, the order that makes this world what it is."
[...]
"And the beings who maintain that order, the beings who embody that order, are the higher order divine race, the gods." ~ WN Chapter 120

秩序 - chitsujo :: Translations: order; regularity; system

Order is the laws and concepts that define and maintain the world. Gods maintain order by either controlling an order or protecting it from being disrupted. Completely erasing an order from the world would destroy the world as a by-product. Disrupting an order means that the order has only been removed from the natural system of the world, and not completely erased.

"All things without exception must eventually lead to destruction, however, because the Demon King stole the Order of Destruction, the world has been limited. Those that should have died did not die, those that should have brought about ruin did not and thus the natural law was disrupted. Other gods stepped in to compensate for it but the order was not completely restored." ~ WN Chapter 120

<Venuzdonoa> is a weapon created by the Order of Destruction. The order was not completely erased, but rather disrupted and turned into a weapon. After removing the order from the natural system of the world, the concept of destruction and all laws related to it across the entire world was affected.

A god's divine order, also referred to as an authority, is connected to that god's respective order, and seemingly utilises that order.

- Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha: Terminology & Cosmology Blog

「私は天父神ノウスガリア。神を生む秩序、神々の父である」

[...]

「蒙昧な君に知恵を授けよう。神の父たる私は、この世の秩序の父である。一時的にでも、私が滅べば、その間、世界を維持するための秩序が生まれない。私を滅ぼせば、世界が滅びる」

神も永遠ではない。
奴らは秩序に従い消え、そして新たに生み出される。

そしてそれらを生み出している神が、天父神ノウスガリアというわけか。

'I am Nousgalia, the Heavenly Father God. I am the order that gives birth to the gods, the father of the gods.

[...]

'I will give you wisdom, you who are ignorant. I, the Father of God, am the father of the order of the world. If I perish, even temporarily, there will be no order to maintain the world during that time. If I perish, the world perishes.

God is not eternal.
They disappear and are reborn according to the order.

And the god who creates them is Nousgalia, the Heavenly Father God.

- WN Chapter 120

天父神を滅ぼせば、世界の秩序は乱れ、やがて滅び行く。

[...]

「エールドメードの体と根源に寄生したのは間違いだったな。その中にいれば、一割の根源でも生きることができる。天父神の根源が一割残っていれば、その秩序も完全には崩壊しない。貴様ら神は不滅の存在だ。本来なら、根源を再生することは容易いはずだが、理滅剣の前ではそうはいかぬ」

[...]

天父神は、神が生まれるという秩序を保つ。それならば、奴が有する秩序としても納得のいく話だ。

If the Heavenly Father God is destroyed, the order of the world will be disturbed and eventually destroyed.

[...]

'It was a mistake to become a parasite in the body and source of the Eldemade. If you stay in it, even ten percent of the source can live. As long as ten percent of the Heavenly Father God's source remain, the order will not be completely destroyed. You gods are immortal beings. Normally, it would be easy to regenerate the source, but that is not possible in front of the principle destroying sword.

[...]

The Heavenly Father God maintains the order of divine birth. If that's the case, then it makes sense for him to have his own order.

- WN Chapter 121

「だが、秩序を生む秩序、天父神ノウスガリアと言えど、魔王の敵としてはどうにも見劣りする。なぜなら、奴は暴虐の魔王を取るに足らぬ存在だと見くびっているからだ。敵を侮る相手が、戦いに勝てると思うか？」

'However, even the order that creates order, the Heavenly Father God Nousgalia, is inferior as an enemy of the Demon King. He is disappointed that he is insignificant to the Demon King of Tyranny. Do you think the opponent who despises the enemy can win the battle?

- WN Chapter 170

「君は私を滅ぼすことはできない……秩序を生む秩序。天父神を滅ぼせば、世界は崩壊の一途を辿るのみだ」

'You can't destroy me... the order that creates order. If you destroy the Heavenly Father God, the world will only collapse...

- WN Chapter 186

Order = laws and concepts
Gods only maintain order, therefore a God's death =/= destruction of their order, but a God's death = order not being maintained, which would disrupt the order (remove the order from the natural system of the world).

Completely destroying an order would destroy the world as a by-product.

Normally, disrupting an order would not destroy the world as a by-product, as evidenced by the fact that disrupting the Order of Destruction did not destroy the world. There are two exceptions to this, namely the Chief God's order and the Heavenly Father God's order.
The Chief God's order is the basic purpose of the world, and therefore disrupting it would destroy the world.
The Heavenly Father God is also referred to as the "pillar of the gods".

Details about the Heavenly Father God's order, namely the "Order of Order":

The Order of Order creates new gods and order while also maintaining all other order in the world.
Merely disrupting the Order of Order, by destroying the god who maintains it, indirectly destroys the world, since disrupting the Order of Order would disrupt and destroy all other order in the world.
Destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world, since all other order in the world can't be maintained/exist without the Order of Order, therefore making all other order in the world dependant on the Order of Order.
The Order of Order would be independent of all other order in the world, since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world.
Since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world, it would naturally exist before and after all other order in the world.

Reasons why I think this possibly qualifies as a type 1 concept:

1. Type 2 concepts (normal order) are dependant on the Order of Order, and would be unable to exist in the reality they govern without the Order of Order.
2. I'm uncertain if altering the Order of Order would change all other order in the world (though it's possible), but I'm certain that destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world (this does not happen when destroying any other order in the world).
3. The Order of Order would exist prior to and after the existence of all other order in the world.

**Updated reasons + new evidence:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/possible-type-1-conceptual-manipulation-upgrade-maou-gakuin.121098/post-3993381

https://vsbattles.com/threads/possible-type-1-conceptual-manipulation-upgrade-maou-gakuin.121098/post-3999474

Agree (18): @RamadhanDayYet, @Ness21, @Bernkastelll, @Dereck03, @Imperium, @megaraptor, @God900, @deonment, @Yzak, @Shizuka, @Verrel966, @Marciano15, @InfiniteCosmology, @Delta333, @TOAAPRESENCE1, @Teezar, @Qawsedf234, @Elizhaa

Disagree (1): @InfiniteDay

Neutral (1): @QuasiYuri

 

[Dereck03]

Here we go... First of All, Nice Job.... at first I will be neutral to see how this thread develops, but I am sure my answer will be agree, and also, if this CRT is accepted, there is one more character who would get Cm 1, Graham.

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Hello. This CRT was created to possibly upgrade the Heavenly Father God's order to a type 1 concept, and therefore upgrade Anos Voldigoad's concept manip to type 1, as he can manipulate and destroy that order.

Thanks to @RamadhanDayYet for helping me with this.



Possible Type 1 Concept:











Order = laws and concepts
Gods only maintain order, therefore a God's death =/= destruction of their order, but a God's death = order not being maintained, which would disrupt the order (remove the order from the natural system of the world).

Completely destroying an order would destroy the world as a by-product.

Normally, disrupting an order would not destroy the world as a by-product, as evidenced by the fact that disrupting the Order of Destruction did not destroy the world. There are two exceptions to this, namely the Chief God's order and the Heavenly Father God's order.
The Chief God's order is the basic purpose of the world, and therefore disrupting it would destroy the world.
The Heavenly Father God is also referred to as the "pillar of the gods".

Details about the Heavenly Father God's order, namely the "Order of Order":

The Order of Order creates new gods and order while also maintaining all other order in the world.
Merely disrupting the Order of Order, by destroying the god who maintains it, indirectly destroys the world, since disrupting the Order of Order would disrupt and destroy all other order in the world.
Destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world, since all other order in the world can't be maintained/exist without the Order of Order, therefore making all other order in the world dependant on the Order of Order.
The Order of Order would be independent of all other order in the world, since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world.
Since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world, it would naturally exist before and after all other order in the world.

Reasons why I think this possibly qualifies as a type 1 concept:

1. Type 2 concepts (normal order) are dependant on the Order of Order, and would be unable to exist in the reality they govern without the Order of Order.
2. I'm uncertain if altering the Order of Order would change all other order in the world (though it's possible), but I'm certain that destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world (this does not happen when destroying any other order in the world).
3. The Order of Order would exist prior to and after the existence of all other order in the world.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral: @Dereck03

Wha- I don't get a notification, anyway...

Good Job null

Strongly agree

And also a little additional from me

In our Own discussion thread we already talk about how it is possible to become independent Concept

So Nousgalia is not only indirectly destroying the world (reality the other order Govern) when he died but also didn't affected by the effect of the destruction of the other order

He can revive it as he wish, it's also show us that even if the reality destroyed, he wouldn't be destroyed by these two evidence

So we have 2 further Possible evidence
1.He predates the other order (his son and daughter)
2.he didn't get affected when the other order is destroyed or etc


So Nousgalia dies = reality destroyed

Reality destroyed ≠ Nousgalia dies

^this is the most possible requirement for the independent Concept (old cm2&1)

 

[Fixxed]

Neutral for now..

Question.So Heavenly father God is Cm type 1 right?

<Venuzdonoa> is a weapon created by the Order of Destruction. The order was not completely erased, but rather disrupted and turned into a weapon. After removing the order from the natural system of the world, the concept of destruction and all laws related to it across the entire world was affected.

Order of destruction ( CM type 2) Its a part of Heavenly God, but how it can be harm heavenly God (Cm type 1)

　I walk and hang Venuzdonoa loosely.

　I stabbed the dark-colored longsword straight into Nousgali



“………



　The guy who was pierced by the sword stares at me in a d



"... haha



　Nous Gallia ridicu



"I'll imitate it shallowly. That's enough to threaten me. Any more, I'm really putting the world in jeopar



"That's ri



　I put a lot of effort into my hand and pushed the sword furt



"Gut ... huh



　Blood overflows from God's l



"... Stop, the Demon Lord of Violence. God's command is absolute



"I don't receive any instructions, even if you're a god

　With magical power in the sword, he pierced the roots of


"... What a shallow ... a man ... destroying the world ... do you mind .


"You are the one who is shal



"... Gut, huh .



　Venuzdonoa shines dark and destroys Nous Gal

lia...!"low"..?"him.od."..."ips...."her.ght"dy."les...."aze.…!?”a.h ...!"



　Venuzdonoa shines dark and destroys Nous Gallia.(WN Chapt 120)

CM type 1 Its immune from CM type 2 attack right? But if venuz stil capable to harm Heavenly God. I think its not qualified for cm1

 

[imZer0Null]

Neutral for now..

Question. So Heavenly father God is Cm type 1 right?


Order of destruction ( CM type 2) Its a part of Heavenly God, but how it can be harm heavenly God (Cm type 1)


CM type 1 Its immune from CM type 2 attack right? But if venuz stil capable to harm Heavenly God. I think its not qualified for cm1

Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, so it being able to destroy the Heavenly Father God's order simply means it can destroy type 1 concepts.
There are no contradictions here.

 

[Dereck03]

Neutral for now..

Question.So Heavenly father God is Cm type 1 right?



Order of destruction ( CM type 2) Its a part of Heavenly God, but how it can be harm heavenly God (Cm type 1)



CM type 1 Its immune from CM type 2 attack right? But if venuz stil capable to harm Heavenly God. I think its not qualified for cm1

For something is the CRT, Venuzdonoa is the order of destruction but not completely, the power of Anos influences Venuzdonoa, so if this is accepted Venuzdonoa and Anos will have Cm 1.

 

[deonment]

1. Type 2 concepts (normal order) are dependant on the Order of Order, and would be unable to exist in the reality they govern without the Order of Order.
2. I'm uncertain if altering the Order of Order would change all other order in the world (though it's possible), but I'm certain that destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world (this does not happen when destroying any other order in the world).
3. The Order of Order would exist prior to and after the existence of all other order in the world.

1. That just means that they would be an "above baseline" type 2, basically what the form of good is to the other forms
2.That is more proof for what I said above
3.Where is this actually stated again, because that would be a more solid proof, but from what I am reading in the op this is not stated also the order not existing doesn't mean that the world doesn't exist

So we have 2 further Possible evidence
1.He predates the other order (his son and daughter)
2.he didn't get affected when the other order is destroyed or etc

1.More proof for it being "Above baseline"
2.^

 

[Ness21]

I agree..

Since I don't know what else to say, I'll be quiet

 

[Dereck03]

1. That just means that they would be an "above baseline" type 2, basically what the form of good is to the other forms
2.That is more proof for what I said above
3.Where is this actually stated again, because that would be a more solid proof, but from what I am reading in the op this is not stated also the order not existing doesn't mean that the world doesn't exist

1.More proof for it being "Above baseline"
2.^

Anos' Cm 2 is already above the baseline.
If the order of order ceases to exist, all other orders would cease to exist and the world would be destroyed.

 

[Fixxed]

Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, so it being able to destroy the Heavenly Father God's order simply means it can destroy type 1 concepts.
There are no contradictions here.

I mean, order of destruction (cm type 2) its a part of Heavenly God father (cm type 1) so heavenly God father is totally immune from all order including order of destruction

For something is the CRT, Venuzdonoa is the order of destruction but not completely, the power of Anos influences Venuzdonoa, so if this is accepted Venuzdonoa and Anos will have Cm 1.

Okay, nice answer

 

[deonment]

Anos' Cm 2 is already above the baseline.
If the order of order ceases to exist, all other orders would cease to exist and the world would be destroyed.

Yes, that doesnt mean it is type one, if you remove all the quarks from atoms what do you think would happen

 

[Dereck03]

But if even the order of the order is destroyed, or any other order is destroyed it does not affect Nousgalia since he can remake the order, but the world would be destroyed accordingly along with all other orders.

 

[deonment]

But if even the order of the order is destroyed, or any other order is destroyed it does not affect Nousgalia since he can remake the order, but the world would be destroyed accordingly along with all other orders.

yes, destroying atoms does not mean one destroys quarks

 

[Dereck03]

yes, destroying atoms does not mean one destroys quarks

It makes no sense what you're saying, I'd rather wait for someone who knows what they're talking about.

 

[imZer0Null]

1. That just means that they would be an "above baseline" type 2, basically what the form of good is to the other forms
2.That is more proof for what I said above
3.Where is this actually stated again, because that would be a more solid proof, but from what I am reading in the op this is not stated also the order not existing doesn't mean that the world doesn't exist

1.More proof for it being "Above baseline"
2.^

Sorry, but this is just wrong.
A concept being dependent on another concept, and the latter concept being independent from the former concept is not just an above baseline type 2 concept, but is now considered a textbook type 1 concept.

 

[deonment]

Sorry, but this is just wrong.
A concept being dependent on another concept, and the latter concept being independent from the former concept is not just an above baseline type 2 concept, but is now considered a textbook type 1 concept.

where are you getting this from

 

[imZer0Null]

where are you getting this from

The wiki's updated concept manip page.

 

[Ness21]

Similes for Conceptual Type 1 that are easy to understand..

This Concept stands independently, just like the Banana Concept.. if all the bananas are crushed/removed, it will have no effect on the Banana Concept because it has stood independently.

And.. Order Nousgalia fulfills this condition

 

[deonment]

Uh, being independent from the thing you govern doesn't make you type 1, you have to be independent of the reality you apply to, nothing here implies that

 

[Delta333]

Uh, being independent from the thing you govern doesn't make you type 1, you have to be independent of the reality you apply to, nothing here implies that

concept being independent from the thing that it represents is type 1 duh,not to mention Nousgalia predates reality which means he exists independently from it

 

[imZer0Null]

Uh, being independent from the thing you govern doesn't make you type 1, you have to be independent of the reality you apply to, nothing here implies that

All other order are type 2 concepts. They shape and govern reality, and when they're destroyed, not disrupted, the world is destroyed.
When the Order of Order is disrupted, not destoyed, all other order are disrupted and destroyed and the world is also destroyed.
Nothing suggests it's destroyed after being disrupted and destroying the world.
The Order of Order created other order, so it's natural that it predates that order and is also independent of the reality which that order shapes and governs.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Ya no, this is Type 2 CM above baseline, nothing here is type 1. I would know, since I was actively participating in the CM revision. The argument is "since is governs everything else, it must predate it right and that means all of reality and that means it's independent of reality right!!!!!" which is not how out standards work. This is baseless guesswork and trying to force words into Type 1. Hard disagree with type 1, though it is above baseline type 2.

 

[imZer0Null]

Ya no, this is Type 2 CM above baseline, nothing here is type 1. I would know, since I was actively participating in the CM revision. The argument is "since is governs everything else, it must predate it right and that means all of reality and that means it's independent of reality right!!!!!" which is not how out standards work. This is baseless guesswork and trying to force words into Type 1. Hard disagree with type 1, though it is above baseline type 2.

No..?
If I create something, then I predate it. Simple as that.
This isn't some guess work stuff as well, since the Heavenly Father God is also called the pillar of the gods, as in he supports them, as in they are dependent on him.
When talking about gods it usually also refers to order, since gods represent their order.
Please, do a better job at countering instead of changing the argument and then disagreeing.

 

[InfiniteDay]

No..?
If I create something, then I predate it. Simple as that.

Your first sentence, and you've already reached a terribly misleading conclusion. Predating something doesn't mean you are completely removed from it an above it, this simply leads to the conclusion that this is a CM type 2 that has a scaling chain that leads it to be above baseline. Type 1 CM needs to have it's source be completely external from baseline reality and far supercede it. This does not fit that bill, and falls into CM Type 2's description.

This isn't some guess work stuff as well, since the Heavenly Father God is also called the pillar of the gods, as in he supports them, as in they are dependent on him.
When talking about gods it also usually also refers to order, since gods represent their order.

Which doesn't support Type 1 in the slightest.. You literally have no proof besides guesswork that HFG is maybe external and above reality, with this statement only stating that all Gods rely on him, which is still Type 2.

 

[imZer0Null]

Your first sentence, and you've already reached a terribly misleading conclusion. Predating something doesn't mean you are completely removed from it an above it, this simply leads to the conclusion that this is a CM type 2 that has a scaling chain that leads it to be above baseline. Type 1 CM needs to have it's source be completely external from baseline reality and far supercede it. This does not fit that bill, and falls into CM Type 2's description.

So let's get this straight. Reality is shaped and governed by other order, and without other order, reality is destroyed.
The Order of Order predates that order, but now it suddenly doesn't predate reality? How does it not predate reality if reality does not exist without the other order which it creates and thus predates?

Which doesn't support Type 1 in the slightest.. You literally have no proof besides guesswork that HFG is maybe external and above reality, with this statement only stating that all Gods rely on him, which is still Type 2.

This wasn't used as proof in the OP, since I know it isn't. I'm simply stating that this CRT isn't just a baseless upgrade attempt.
Furthermore, HFG creates gods and order. The novel also uses "god" and "order" interchangeable sometimes, since gods represent and maintain their order.
When it says "pillar of the gods", it means it supports the gods and their order. This is evident by the fact that other order is destroyed when the Order of Order is merely disrupted. Again tho, it's not like I actually meant to use this as proof.

 

[InfiniteDay]

So let's get this straight. Reality is shaped and governed by other order, and without other order, reality is destroyed.
The Order of Order predates that order, but now it suddenly doesn't predate reality? How does it not predate reality if reality does not exist without the other order which it creates and thus predates?

First of off, prove that it predates it through scans and not assumptions. And no, that would not be the logical conclusion, the logical conclusion is that the order relies on the order of order to exist, and this same order is the universe itself, which means that the order of order is a type 2 concept, just above baseline. You needs scans to prove that it transcends reality.

This wasn't used as proof in the OP, since I know it isn't. I'm simply stating that this CRT isn't just a baseless upgrade attempt.
Furthermore, HFG creates gods and order. The novel also uses "god" and "order" interchangeable sometimes, since gods represent and maintain their order.
When it says "pillar of the gods", it means it supports the gods and their order. This is evident by the fact that other order is destroyed when the Order of Order is merely disrupted. Again tho, it's not like I actually meant to use this as proof.

So the concept is affected by destruction of its parts... yo that's textbook Type 2 that completely disqualifies Type 1.

 

[Dereck03]

So the concept is affected by destruction of its parts... yo that's textbook Type 2 that completely disqualifies Type 1.

HFG concept is not affected by the destruction of the other concepts, what are you saying? he is not even affected by the disturbance or destruction of its own concept, while the world and the other orders would be destroyed.

 

[Fixxed]

So Nousgalia dies = reality destroyed

Reality destroyed ≠ Nousgalia dies

^this is the most possible requirement for the independent Concept (old cm2&1)

I think it qualified to cm1, If All order got destroyed but nousgalia still exist

 

[Dereck03]

I think it qualified to cm1, If All order got destroyed but nousgalia still exist

But if even the order of the order is destroyed, or any other order is destroyed it does not affect Nousgalia since he can remake the order, but the world would be destroyed accordingly along with all other orders.

HFG concept is not affected by the destruction of the other concepts, what are you saying? he is not even affected by the disturbance or destruction of its own concept, while the world and the other orders would be destroyed.

 

[imZer0Null]

First of off, prove that it predates it through scans and not assumptions. And no, that would not be the logical conclusion, the logical conclusion is that the order relies on the order of order to exist, and this same order is the universe itself, which means that the order of order is a type 2 concept, just above baseline. You needs scans to prove that it transcends reality.

I just said that it creates other order, thus predating it. The same order that shapes and governs the world.

So the concept is affected by destruction of its parts... yo that's textbook Type 2 that completely disqualifies Type 1.

This is completely wrong, and idk how you even got this idea.

You also haven't countered the other reasons in the OP, like how it is independent of what it represents or that destroying this concept destroys all other concepts.

Honestly tho, if you're just gonna go in circles focusing on the predating stuff, then I'll rather wait for other input and simply put you under disagree.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I just said that it creates other order, thus predating it. The same order that shapes and governs the world.

Less assumptions please. Predates doesn't means exempt from.

This is completely wrong, and idk how you even got this idea.

You also haven't countered the other reasons in the OP, like how it is independent of what it represents or that destroying this concept destroys all other concepts.

Honestly tho, if you're just gonna go in circles focusing on the predating stuff, then I'll rather wait for other input and simply put you under disagree.

This is not a counter to my post in any regard.

Edit: I misread it, my mistake.

 

[Cosmic_King_of_SAO]

Can I ask a question?

What exactly is Nousgalia's order? Is it the order to create and maintain other orders?

If so, then would affecting or destroying all other order affect it as well? Would affecting or destroying Nousgalia's order affect all other order?

 

[Dereck03]

HFG exists before reality and all other orders, since it was the one that created them, destroying all orders including the order of order would not affect Nousgalia, and thus reality, the world and all orders would be destroyed, except Nousgalia

 

[imZer0Null]

Can I ask a question?

What exactly is Nousgalia's order? Is it the order to create and maintain other orders?

If so, then would affecting or destroying all other order affect it as well? Would affecting or destroying Nousgalia's order affect all other order?

The Order of Order creates other order and maintains all other order's existence in the world.

Even tho other order has been affected before in the story, it did not affect the Order of Order, so I'd say no.

Yes. Simply disrupting his order disrupts and destroys all other order, and also the world. This is not the case for any other order except the Chief God's order.

The Chief God's order can also possibly qualify as a type 1 concept, since it has blatant proof of existing before and after the world, and is also deeply involved in all other order in the world, but I'd rather focus on the HFG's order rn.

 

[Fixxed]

HFG exists before reality and all other orders, since it was the one that created them, destroying all orders including the order of order would not affect Nousgalia, and thus reality, the world and all orders would be destroyed, except Nousgalia

#ask

Nousgalia created Order from deeper layer ?

 

[Dereck03]

#ask

Nousgalia created Order from deeper layer ?

This is an interesting question, but I don't know because I haven't reread the novel for a while, it may be that each layer has its own HFG, or it may not, so I can't answer that, sorry... I think maybe @imZer0Null could answer that

 

[Ness21]

#ask

Nousgalia created Order from deeper layer ?

Interesting!

But I don't really know about this, if you think about it... the power of aberneyu still has an effect on layer 99. Even though Aberneyu is a shallow layer goddess

 

[Ness21]

The Order of Order creates other order and maintain all other order's existence in the world.

Even tho other order has been affected before in the story, it did not affect the Order of Order, so I'd say no.

Yes. Simply disrupting his order disrupts and destroys all other order, and also the world. This is not the case for any other order except the Chief God's order.

The Chief God's order can also possibly qualify as a type 1 concept, since it has blatant proof of existing before and after the world, and is also deeply involved in all other order in the world, but I'd rather focus on the HFG's order rn.

What about firedew who sustains all life and orders? which is where if all orders in the world are destroyed.. it will have no effect on firedew and if firedew the world is completely lost.. the destruction of the world cannot be contained

correct me if my statement above is wrong.

 

[imZer0Null]

#ask

Nousgalia created Order from deeper layer ?

Firstly, this isn't actually about Nousgalia, but about his order.
Nousgalia didn't create deeper world order, but the HFG of deeper worlds, using the same Order of Order as Nousgalia, maintain their world's order.

Secondly, deeper layers could be considered as higher levels of reality, and so we shouldn't discuss deeper order this CRT.

I will however say that I found a statement that says order flows from shallow to deep.
It also says deeper worlds can use shallower order, but shallower worlds cannot use deeper order.
This supports the previous concept upgrade attempt, since order in the Silver Sea are all connected.
In other words, if you have the "potency" to destroy order in a deeper world, then you would indeed destroy that same order in a shallower world, as it's the same order that simply flowed deeper. If you only have the necessary "potency" to affect order in shallower worlds, then you obviously cannot destroy order in deeper worlds.

This does kinda fit with plato's idea of "concepts in a lower reality being an imperfect manifestation of concepts in a higher reality", but again, I'd rather focus on the Order of Order rn.

 

[imZer0Null]

What about firedew who sustains all life and orders? which is where if all orders in the world are destroyed.. it will have no effect on firedew and if firedew the world is completely lost.. the destruction of the world cannot be contained

correct me if my statement above is wrong.

That is somewhat correct, but fire dew is not conceptual as far as I know, so it isn't applicable here.