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Ultima_Reality

Ultima_Reality

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  • Tarang123
    Just a quick tiering system question, but is type 1 BDE enough to reach 1A? I would assume no, but I want to confirm it with you
    PrinceofPein
    PrinceofPein
    PrinceofPein
    I apologise for bumping this so soon, but it is a bit urgent
    And I also don't mind if you post the requirement for low 2C here too I can forward it to the thread. The contention is that they don't seem to agree with me when I said to be low 2c you need to affect/destroy the past and future of the said universe, so if you can clarify that here that would be fine too
    Threemagi
    Can you take a look at this thread if you have time? Its about Downstreamers upgrade to Tier 0 through having Woodin Cardinal.

    Thank you.
    OnsokunoSonic
    Hey Ultima, sorry to disturb you, but I want to ask a question.

    Let's say, I have a space that contain an infinite sized house, but the space that I own still have space to spare, let's say for building a big house.

    Does this qualify for tier 1? Thanks.
    Luckyfun
    Hi. I want to ask you if (A) gets a portion of power from a low-1C (B), would (A) become low-1C aswell?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Depends on what you mean by "a portion." If it's some vague, undefined amount, that's not enough to scale on its own, but if it refers to, for example, a half, or some other actual value, they would, yeah.
    Luckyfun
    Luckyfun
    Thank you for answering.

    Could low-1C (B) granted (A) a small fraction of itself and nigh-omniscient, making (A) realize his true power would be enough to qualify as low-1C works?
    Delta333
    I have a question,how can brane cosmology be tier 1 while we don't know exactly if higher dimension is uncountably infinitely superior to lower one or not?
    • Like
    Reactions: Rabbit2002
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    A higher-dimensional object holding uncountably infinite superiority in volume over a lower-dimensional one is always the case, mostly. The issue is that, unintuitive as that as, mass and energy are quantities that are not really affected by a change in coordinate spaces, and so that means a lower-dimensional object can have more mass than, and exert equal or more energy, than a higher-dimensional one, which is why dimensionality alone gives no tier on its own.

    Brane Cosmology, more often than not, provides an escape for that, since the fundamental postulation of it is the existence of a higher-dimensional space in which the Branes are embedded (The Bulk), with this space being often assumed as infinite in size as well. So, it'd fall under the following requirement, outline in the Tiering System FAQ:

    One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.
    Kerwin0831
    I have a question, more so of a clarification, for the tiering. Let’s say that the verse has higher spaces which are treated to be akin to how higher dimensional spaces work and there’s a statement of them existing infinitely, and someone(character A) has the capability to destroy that entire High 1-B structure.

    Character A(High 1-B) is transcended by character B like how 7-As cannot reach character A. What do you think character B’s rating is?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Still High 1-B, if we are to take the statement at face value. Taking an infinite-dimensional space to be something like, say, R^ω (with ω being the first number that succeeds all of the naturals, in this case), then a space that contains it to be the same degree it contains any other finitely-dimensioned space (You are talking in terms of beings, yes, but same principle applies to both cases, to clarify) would be R^ω+ω, or something of the sort, which is still a countable number of dimensions and thus doesn't reach beyond that tier.
    Kerwin0831
    Kerwin0831
    To add another, character B is independent from an infinite higher-dimensional spaces like character A is not because it’s residing in a greater unimaginable space. But due of its nature to be the dead end of all things, an absolute void of nonexistence.

    And that significant difference is interpreted by a lower God(lower than character A) who has limited information about character B at all. Since trying to understand would drive the lower God insane as such he doesn’t want to.
    Kerwin0831
    Kerwin0831
    I mean it’s similar to Pre-Retcon Beyonder case where he transcends MM as how MM transcends Captain America, being greater than the multiverse. But unlike him(millions of times) there’s no number stating its transcendence nor was it stated/imply to be a greater infinite dimensional entity like PrB was.
    CrisisCrysis
    Can you please check out my recent Gaunter O'Dimm possible tier upgrade thread? It has some higher-D cosmology involved. I think you can help me and others with that.

    Thanks in advance.
    StrymULTRA
    Would you please check a proposal of revising the DBS timeline structure please?

    The discussion starts from here (which summaries my concerns) and still continues until the last post with other counters and arguments. I'd appreciate your input in it since that's about how we treat quilted/bubble multiverse stuff in this wiki and DBS seems a weird exception coz idk. Thank you.

    Edit: Please do, AKM even closed this until you'd reopen it to discuss it, I'd appreciate it really much.
    LordNidhoggr
    Hey, I was wondering if there is anything I could do to help with the pending Cthulhu Mythos revision/update? I could do research or find links to use as sources or something. No worries if not, I just want to be helpful if I can.
    Regidian
    Hi could you respond in the Umineko thread when you have time pls? It's was closed till the time your answer to it
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Sure thing, then. Was working on revisions for a couple other verses in the meantime and assumed it was closed until a second thread was made, so, sorry for the delay.
    Rabbit2002
    Hello Ultimate. One question regarding tiering system
    If a verse considers Church-Kleene ordinal (Smallest Nonrecursive ordinal) to be so large that any/every smaller countable infinite is nothing but fiction/dream (Recursive ordinal, each larger than last as finite objects, both range and size)
    If so, what tier do Church-Kleene ordinal and Omega-sub one/Aleph-1 (first uncountable infinite ordinal) belong to? Elements are 4D universes (space-time)
    It related to some Verse (SCP)
    View previous comments…
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    You seem to misunderstand what I mean here, it's not a stack of ordered existence levels
    The context of this is SCP-4555, one of the justifications for tier Low-1C that you've accepted and are fine with since the "Omega" at the end of the article could refer to the First uncountable ordinal (Omega sub-one ). However this is wrong and the author has confirmed it is "much smaller", aka Church-Kleene ordinal, however there is some interesting thing here that it not only contains all ordinal numbers (Computable ordinal) smaller than it (they are not degrees of existence, just countably infinite sets of universes/infinite-sized multiverses/... which are absurdly and insanely HUGE, like Epsilon, Veblen Function, Psi,..) but also trivialize THEM as Fiction/dream in the same way Maha-Vinshu trivialized the Universe/Maya as a dream in Hinduism. A property that countably infinite sets (irl) cannot (However, in SCP they also possess all the properties of irl, the author even cites wiki to explain this) and according to the Tierning system and FAQ it is equivalent to the distance between Dimensions and so At Least Low-1C
    At least that's my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong
    And the question here is does this make the Church-Kleen ordinal set of 2A multiverses in SCP Low-1C? If it's Low-1C then what about larger countably infinite ordinals? The author also claims that the Church-Kleen ordinal is much smaller than First Uncountable ordinal/Omega-Sub One

    About scan : This And here
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    Since the Wikipedia the author cites not only implies such things exist, but also a hierarchy that is insanely huge and unimaginable (like inaccessibile, Mahlo cardinal, Weakly-Compact , stable ordinal,.. but as "Countable infinite sets") with Church-Kleen Ordinal being the smallest (you can think of it as the equivalent of an Omega-Sub one)
    And all of these are smaller than Omega-Sub, no matter how extensive it is, such as Aleph-1, Cardinal of countium (2^Aleph-0) is at least equivalent to it, and it also see all countable finite or infinite sets (as above) that are not infinitesimal but Equal to Zero, for example the difference between higher and lower dimensions in SCP (and There are Infinite amount of them). And there's even SCP-5800 which is literally the Universe that contains the Very Concepts of Aleph Numbers themselves such as the Predator Concept Entities, which always consumes smaller concepts/Alephs. Even Weakest/Smallest of these aka SCP-5712 is able to consume Axis/Vector concepts in Mathematics which underlie the difference in scale between the higher and lower dimensions and their existence (IE: The Concept of Higher/Lower Dimension). To be honest I have a project on SCP Upgrading, which could turn the verse into one of the most insane and non-Powerful instances in the entire Wiki (it's been a while since the project but I'm too lazy to do it)
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    It's been a long time, so, if you still want my opinion on this:

    The context of this is SCP-4555, one of the justifications for tier Low-1C that you've accepted and are fine with since the "Omega" at the end of the article could refer to the First uncountable ordinal (Omega sub-one ). However this is wrong and the author has confirmed it is "much smaller", aka Church-Kleene ordinal
    Click to expand...

    Ah, I see. Seems like I was mistaken in thinking "Omega" stood for the first uncountable ordinal, then. My bad, I suppose.

    however there is some interesting thing here that it not only contains all ordinal numbers (Computable ordinal) smaller than it (they are not degrees of existence, just countably infinite sets of universes/infinite-sized multiverses/... which are absurdly and insanely HUGE, like Epsilon, Veblen Function, Psi,..) but also trivialize THEM as Fiction/dream in the same way Maha-Vinshu trivialized the Universe/Maya as a dream in Hinduism. A property that countably infinite sets (irl) cannot (However, in SCP they also possess all the properties of irl, the author even cites wiki to explain this) and according to the Tierning system and FAQ it is equivalent to the distance between Dimensions and so At Least Low-1C
    At least that's my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong
    And the question here is does this make the Church-Kleen ordinal set of 2A multiverses in SCP Low-1C? If it's Low-1C then what about larger countably infinite ordinals? The author also claims that the Church-Kleen ordinal is much smaller than First Uncountable ordinal/Omega-Sub One
    Click to expand...
    It wouldn't necessarily say anything about the extent of Large Countable Ordinals in the context of SCP, no. Largely because ordinal numbers themselves are strictly used to specify the order in which the members of a sequence are arranged, and the cardinality of the elements themselves obviously isn't taken into account when it comes to that, nor is an element denoted by a further ordinal necessarily larger than the ones before it. They're a measure of "how far something is," as opposed to how big it is, in simple terms.

    For example, a banana can be visualized as an uncountably infinite set of points, and a countably infinite set of bananas can be arranged into an ordinal space of any order type beneath omega-one, but the set itself is still countable, taking only its cardinality into account, and the bananas are all relative to one another in size. This is a large part of the reason for why countably infinite ordinals and, for the matter, cardinalities beneath 2^2^aleph-0 in general aren't a reliable method of tiering on their own.

    So, TL;DR, Omega is probably Low 1-C due to dreaming all of the universes leading to its own creation into existence, yeah, but it being denoted by the Church-Kleene Ordinal in that sequence doesn't mean much.
    Gwirgisdagoat
    Hi, I have a question for you, if a character transcends individuality (even on a conceptual level) would that scale him anywhere on the tiering system?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    My first instinct would be rating that as Transduality, I guess, but I'd rather see some scans of it first.
    Gwirgisdagoat
    Gwirgisdagoat
    Yeah I don’t have any scans, it was just a question I had, I wondered if it was a scalable feat
    Comicgyal
    Hey Ultima are you knowledgeable on marvel and the cosmology? I have something I want to check.
    ThePirateKing777
    Hello Ultima! I have to say nice work on your World of Darkness Cosmology Blog. I do have some concerns about World of Darkness Cosmology though like for instance where does The One Giver fit in all this? I remember there with a page for it and now it's gone. It's seem to me that now neither Jehovah (Mage The Ascension), The Essential Divinity is the supreme being or it's Bondye_(World_of_Darkness).
    View previous comments…
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Bondye and Jehovah are both set-pieces, so to speak. They're effectively just template characters that a Storyteller can include in their game sessions as their own interpretation of the verse's Absolute. Pretty much just personifications of it that aren't inherently more valid than each other.
    ThePirateKing777
    ThePirateKing777
    I see. Thank you for your time.
    Frieza_force_soldier_100
    Frieza_force_soldier_100
    Speaking of which, why did the One Giver get deleted and not restored? I heard something about revisions, but that was eons ago.
    GreatIskandar14045
    Yo, if may I ask~
    Say, there is a multi-layered multiverse with each of 'em is infinite sized, and there's a qualitative superioty (not a dimensional transcendence yet) from one to another layer.

    Now, we know that busting them all at once is 2-A above baseline AP-wise but would that translate to range as well?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Not necessarily, since the same logic that makes it so multiple sets of infinite universes are equal to a single set also applies to the space they take up on their own. Unless the verse itself defines some concrete distance between those layers, it's pretty unquantifiable.

    Although, if there's a qualitative difference between each of those layers, why is it just 2-A to begin with, exactly?
    GreatIskandar14045
    GreatIskandar14045
    Say, the higher multiverse perceives the lower ones as weaker and more fragile structures (like how chain scaling works or something alike), but not yet as far as an uncountably infinite difference.
    LordNidhoggr
    Hey, sorry to bother you, but I have a quick Cthulhu Mythos question: how important is the aspect of infinite disassociation of archetypes into beings/forms in the lower planes of existence to the tier calculations of the Ultimate Gods/Archetypes/Supreme Archetype?
    View previous comments…
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Hey, sorry to bother you, but I have a quick Cthulhu Mythos question: how important is the aspect of infinite disassociation of archetypes into beings/forms in the lower planes of existence to the tier calculations of the Ultimate Gods/Archetypes/Supreme Archetype?
    Click to expand...
    Not very, since, in spite of existing above a number of undimensioned realms themselves, the other Archetypes' dissociation throughout reality seems to largely extend to the beings residing in dimensioned space. The exception to this, as far as I can ascertain, is the Supreme Archetype, which actually had angles extending as far as the Ultimate Void itself (Seeing as how the the state Carter attained past the Ultimate Gate was still considered just a facet of it.) In fact, given the emphasis placed on his connection to the Gates, their Guardians and the Key that unlocks them, it seems like all regions belonging to the "Outside" are exclusively facets of him.

    And I agree that the current state of the profiles is not very serviceable, yes, mostly in relation to the Archetypes' placement. I'm currently planning to tackle that in a CRT on its own, soon enough. (Part 1.5 of the current revisions to the verse, if you will)
    LordNidhoggr
    LordNidhoggr
    Er...yes? Is there something I misread or overlooked? Is there a different blog other than the explanation page linked on the popular pages tab? If I did, I would be grateful if you could point it out, because I can't find anything that addresses or disproves my argument. I don't disagree though about the shot in the dark, though, which is why I haven't made the CRT already. I was hoping to get some feedback to know whether or not I'd just be wasting people's time. I mean, to me it's pretty evident in the passage I quoted, and the lack of this being addressed in the blog should change even if nothing else does. It's an important bit of info that, at the very least, counts as useful information that is currently absent.

    The blog uses the disassociation of Carter as evidence for "the ultimate mystery." Not just that, it's (one of) the primary piece of evidence for it. But the passage I quoted clearly states that Carter would have gone through the same thing before crossing the Ultimate Gate except that 'Umr At-Tawil was preventing him from dissociating with his magic so that Carter would be stable enough to perform the necessary rituals to cross the Ultimate Gate with the Silver Key. It follows, then, that the Tier 0 associated with this phenomenon should apply to the lower First Gate, as it has the same properties, or enough of them, to qualify as the same level of existence. With that information, along with how we know the Ultimate Void transcends the First Gate by an incomprehensible amount. There's other evidence that supports this, too. In Hypnos, we learn that the void is "a place no dreams can reach," which would explain why Hypnos could pass through the extra-dense barrier but the narrator couldn't. Hypnos is a God, and specifically the God of Sleep; that means he almost certainly has a more permanent existence in the Dreamlands than just his astral essence when sleeping, but the narrator does not. They go as far as dreams will take them, ultimately coming to a barrier to the Ultimate Void, or a Void, and the narrator cannot pass because he is just the dream essence of a human, while Hypnos breaches the barrier as a God and goes to the next level.

    The Ultimate Void and the First Gate Extension clearly share more properties than they're currently explained as per the information blog, and I think given the nature of the evidence it should support a change in tiering. But I know I can be way off base, especially if I missed something. So, hopefully, someone with a vested interest can tell me what's wrong with it if there's a problem.
    LordNidhoggr
    LordNidhoggr
    Not very, since, in spite of existing above a number of undimensioned realms themselves, the other Archetypes' dissociation throughout reality seems to largely extend to the beings residing in dimensioned space. The exception to this, as far as I can ascertain, is the Supreme Archetype, which actually had angles extending as far as the Ultimate Void itself (Seeing as how the the state Carter attained past the Ultimate Gate was still considered just a facet of it.) In fact, given the emphasis placed on his connection to the Gates, their Guardians and the Key that unlocks them, it seems like all regions belonging to the "Outside" are exclusively facets of him.

    And I agree that the current state of the profiles is not very serviceable, yes, mostly in relation to the Archetypes' placement. I'm currently planning to tackle that in a CRT on its own, soon enough. (Part 1.5 of the current revisions to the verse, if you will)
    Click to expand...
    Ok, I definitely won't make a thread then. However, I don't think the extensions and disassociation of Carter is exclusive to him. I would still argue that the passage I quote shows that the Outer Extension still has properties associated with the Ultimate Mystery as of now. Unless I'm missing something, I think that the tiering should be bumped up for anything in and beyond the First Gate. Open to being wrong, of course.
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