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Kirby Cosmology Upgrade

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A follow-up to this thread, which died out of seemingly nowhere (for the best, considering my old blog was pretty bad).

I've looked at this from every angle, even making some rough sketches of what the cosmology should reasonably look like, and I couldn't find any other conclusion. The point of this blog and this thread is to upgrade Kirby cosmology to Low 1-C.


To summarize what my blog is about, the Japanese statements simply confirm that Another Dimension's road is qualitatively superior to the concepts of time and space. It's also said to exceed time and dimensions. That's two of our biggest tier 1 requirements being fulfilled with just with official statements. Nothing in Kirby lore contradicts it. In fact, it even supports it with dimensional wall shenanigans and the fact that AD makes up the space between dimensions. I can even bring up a list of verses which are already accepted as Low 1-C on the Wiki for similar, if not weaker reasonings (but I feel like that would border on derailment).

This isn't a tier upgrade to anyone in the Kirby cast, since they currently don't scale to the cosmology as it stands.

Agreement: 19 (Justkillme42069, DaReaperMan, Arceus0x, azontr, AbaddonTheDissappointment, Lord_JJJ, Bernkastell, M1ntyIc3CreamXZ, Guardian_Doge, Starsprite53, ThatOneMofo, Apex_PredatorX, Greenshifter, sanicspood, Pokemonfan807, The_Pink_God, Livinmeme, Sus, Tarang123)
Disagreement: 4 (Everything12, Ultima_Reality, Foxthefox1000, Gohanblanco217)
Neutral: 4 (y3p_owo, Brak, ElexirBlue, HammerStrikes219)
 
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i'd argue about the non-scaling part as Magolor did nuke the road but this is an argument for another day
 
sony: haha blue headechog beat your op horse
nintendo: NO SHUT UP ARCEUS BETTER
also nintendo: kirby slowly pulling up with the low 1-C
 
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The FAQ just says the space needs to be qualitatively superior to the space-time continuum in nature. Or that it needs to be qualitatively superior to the pre-established dimensions of the verse. AD fills both of those criterias when it really only needs one. It's not "more real" than the dimensions it transcends, but it doesn't need to be since that's not how all Low 1-C realms work. It's a "bulk space" between and beyond dimensions.

If what you say is actually agreed upon, not only does it bring up many questions, but it needs to be clarified in the FAQ.
 
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Nah the next Kirby game probably

But yeah, currently neutral and just gonna watch how this all plays out.
 
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Ultima_Reality

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Looking over the blog, I don't think nitpicking the exact meaning of the kanji involved is very optimal when it comes to proving Low 1-C, especially since most of these have quite a few different definitions than the ones you provide.

For instance, "超え" (Which seems to be derived from 超える) can also translated as "to cross over; to cross; to pass through; to pass over (out of)", which certainly fits more with the context of the statements, which seem to be referring to an inter-dimensional tunnel leading to another dimension apart from the normal timeline, and given that the other statements use similar characters and are mostly just reiterating the same thing, it's safe to assume the same applies to them. So, abusing buzzwords like that probably won't fly here, especially not in light of that context.

"Space between dimensions" is also excessively vague, and assuming it to be some all-encompassing bulk in which universes are embedded seems to require quite a few leaps of logic, made particularly obvious by how it's referred to as a tunnel leading to Another Dimension and described in terms that more closely resemble a portal or a gateway than anything else.

Another Dimension's road was stated to be extra-dimensional and beyond the space-time continuum, along with being part of an Extra Dimension (which is a real life term to describe qualitatively higher dimensions) beyond space and time.

"Extra-dimensional" is an adjective that's constantly used to refer to things pertaining to other universes and the like, and given what these scans are referring to, the same applies here, so you'd need vastly better evidence to show that they are indeed referring to higher-dimensional space or similar. Likewise, "beyond the space-time continuum" is a description that'd be perfectly fine to use in reference to anything that's outside of the boundaries of a given spacetime, including parallel universes existing on the same general "level" as it, so, without the above statements serving as the meat of the argument, those scans are all pretty useless.

So, yeah, all-in-all, I don't see no Low 1-C here.
 
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Ultima, I don't think you realise it, but in trying to debunk my point, you accidentally supported it. If the variable definition of the kanjis is your only argument against me, then your entire foundation falls apart when you realize that the link you just sent has its two definitions depend entirely on which kanji is used as the lead.
213387822_1842814182546335_7843317180245313291_n.jpg

As you can see, "える" means crossing over or passing through, while "える" means exceeding or surpassing. Kirby uses the second one in almost all of its scans. If you need more proof, take another look at the very same link you just sent and look at the the examples used in "Sentences". You'll see that each and every one of the sentences that use "える" refer to an actual superiority.
 
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And idk nearly enough kanji to support your argument here cause I'm literally on the baseline of japanesem
 

Ultima_Reality

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If the variable definition of the kanjis is your only argument against me, then your entire foundation falls apart when you realize that the link you just sent has its two definitions depend entirely on which kanji is used as the lead.
That wasn't really the foundation of my argument, no, hence why I said "especially not in light of that context" at the end of the first paragraph up there. My point is that every single scan you've used as justification for Low 1-C in that blog uses "beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on to refer to how the inter-dimensional road leads to a parallel universe, and therefore to the outside of the main universe's spacetime, which doesn't really hint towards the uncountably infinite/qualitative superiority that an upgrade to this tier would require. Taking into account what a statement is talking about to begin with is more important than hyper-focusing on specific terms, especially ones that are very subjective and liable to receive several different interpretations, many of which don't align with a VS Debating mindset at all.

Under those terms, such a thing could pretty easily be accomplished by a 4-dimensional object, much like how (As an example, mind) you, a 3-D being, would naturally exist outside of the spacetime of a reality comprised of two spatial dimensions + 1 temporal, and that's taking the best possible assumptions in regards to those statements, too, since you can obviously also be apart from some structure without any alteration to your size.
 
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I am following the argument and I'm glad that the debunk isn't just "dOeSn'T fIT sTAnDArDs"
It's not like that argument was ever an option since I went out of my way to prove that it does fit our standards.
And idk nearly enough kanji to support your argument here cause I'm literally on the baseline of japanesem
But if what you just said is right then there is still a chance
Should I move you to Neutral then? I'd love to have you on the side of Agreement, but you really don't seem sure.

That wasn't really the foundation of my argument, no, hence why I said "especially not in light of that context" at the end of the first paragraph up there.
Alright. Thanks for clarifying. Just to be sure, you acknowledge your mistake on that part and don't believe in it anymore, right?
My point is that every single scan you've used as justification for Low 1-C in that blog uses "beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on to refer to how the inter-dimensional road leads to a parallel universe, and therefore to the outside of the main universe's spacetime, which doesn't really hint towards the uncountably infinite/qualitative superiority that an upgrade to this tier would require.
How would being greater than/exceeding something not mean you're qualitatively superior to it? That's what "える" means. If they wanted to say the road is just a wormhole outside of the main universe, they would have used "える". Like I said, transcend isn't a fluid term in Japanese and the descriptions are pretty damn consistent, What you seem to be saying is that the road is qualitatively superior to space-time, but not by an infinite amount. Can you explain to me how that would work and how the FAQ even supports what you're saying?
Taking into account what a statement is talking about to begin with is more important than hyper-focusing on specific terms, especially ones that are very subjective and liable to receive several different interpretations, many of which don't align with a VS Debating mindset at all.

Under those terms, such a thing could pretty easily be accomplished by a 4-dimensional object, much like how (As an example, mind) you, a 3-D being, would naturally exist outside of the spacetime of a reality comprised of two spatial dimensions + 1 temporal, and that's taking the best possible assumptions in regards to those statements, too, since you can obviously also be apart from some structure without any alteration to your size.
So you believe that Another Dimension is a 4D space that contains other 4D space-time continuums without necessarily being infinitely superior to them. Am I getting this right?
 
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If i had to say, in a line from 100% disagree to 100% agree, I'd be around 30% agree.
Might seem low but that means I'm 130% away from disagreeing.
 

Ultima_Reality

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How would being greater than/exceeding something not mean you're qualitatively superior to it? That's what "超える" means. If they wanted to say the road is just a wormhole outside of the main universe, they would have used "越える". Like I said, transcend isn't a fluid term in Japanese and the descriptions are pretty damn consistent, What you seem to be saying is that the road is qualitatively superior to space-time, but not by an infinite amount. Can you explain to me how that would work and how the FAQ even supports what you're saying?
"Koeru," as far as I see, still just means "surpass," "exceed," "beyond," "transcend" and so on, and even outside of that, a quick search on Google already shows several different sentences where "超える" and "越える" are used to express the exact same things, and even the specific kanji that you focus on still seem to carry the same conotation regardless.

Given all of this, we'd just treat the term in the same way that we treat the english terms, and this falls under another notice in the FAQ, where it's made pretty clear that buzzwords like that aren't automatic passes to qualify for any tier, and that the surrounding context behind a phrase is more relevant than them. "Beyond" and "exceed" themselves can be interpreted as just meaning you are outside of some structure, like I said, and in cases where there's 0 evidence supporting the higher interpretation, we go with the more conservative (i.e lower) one.

So you believe that Another Dimension is a 4D space that contains other 4D space-time continuums without necessarily being infinitely superior to them. Am I getting this right
I haven't seem much evidence suggesting that Another Dimension embeds the whole spacetime of the main universe within itself, and the fact that it's described as being on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel seems to contradict that idea, so, not really arguing that, no.
 
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The thing that lies at the end of the tunnel is Halcandra which isn't inside AD and is pretty much unrelated i believe unless I'm missing sth.

Pepto will probably provide the scans and explanation necessary
 
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"Koeru," as far as I see, still just means "surpass," "exceed," "beyond," "transcend" and so on, and even outside of that, a quick search on Google already shows several different sentences where "超える" and "越える" are used to express the exact same things, and even the specific kanji that you focus on still seem to carry the same conotation regardless.

Given all of this, we'd just treat the term in the same way that we treat the english terms, and this falls under another notice in the FAQ, where it's made pretty clear that buzzwords like that aren't automatic passes to qualify for any tier, and that the surrounding context behind a phrase is more relevant than them. "Beyond" and "exceed" themselves can be interpreted as just meaning you are outside of some structure, like I said, and in cases where there's 0 evidence supporting the higher interpretation, we go with the more conservative (i.e lower) one.
There's alot to unpack, here. Before I do, let me ask one more question. If, hypothetically, Another Dimension was confirmed to be beyond the mathematical concept of dimensions and not simply beyond parallel dimensions/universes, would that qualify for Low 1-C?
I haven't seem much evidence suggesting that Another Dimension embeds the whole spacetime of the main universe within itself, and the fact that it's described as being on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel seems to contradict that idea, so, not really arguing that, no.
No, Another Dimension isn't on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel. Either it is the tunnel or it contains the tunnel within itself. Meanwhile, Magolor's universe is no different from Kirby's. They're both regular timelines contained in AD. I elaborate why in my blog. Even Effi agrees that it contains universes as seen in the last thread. Granted, he also says that AD doesn't necessarily make up the space between all dimensions, which is weird, but let's save that for when he actually shows up.
 
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Agree with Pepto’s blog. I’m no expert on Japanse though. But I fail to see how something that’s described as beyond/transcending time and dimensions isn’t low 1-C by the tiering system. Even if it’s a “tunnel” of sorts connecting dimensions, don’t see why it can’t be a 5D bulk space and I also don’t see how some regular inter-dimensional tunnel would be described as superior to space-time and dimensions in whatever language.
 
"Koeru," as far as I see, still just means "surpass," "exceed," "beyond," "transcend" and so on, and even outside of that, a quick search on Google already shows several different sentences where "超える" and "越える" are used to express the exact same things, and even the specific kanji that you focus on still seem to carry the same conotation regardless.

Given all of this, we'd just treat the term in the same way that we treat the english terms, and this falls under another notice in the FAQ, where it's made pretty clear that buzzwords like that aren't automatic passes to qualify for any tier, and that the surrounding context behind a phrase is more relevant than them. "Beyond" and "exceed" themselves can be interpreted as just meaning you are outside of some structure, like I said, and in cases where there's 0 evidence supporting the higher interpretation, we go with the more conservative (i.e lower) one.


I haven't seem much evidence suggesting that Another Dimension embeds the whole spacetime of the main universe within itself, and the fact that it's described as being on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel seems to contradict that idea, so, not really arguing that, no.
Hmm, so what do you propose to be the tier???
 
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We're discussing a Kirby cosmology upgrade from 2-C to Low 1-C. I'm in favor of it along with most other people. What's needed is some staff agreement.

Everything12 disagrees. He says that a superiority over space-time or dimensions needs to be proven to be uncountably infinite in order to qualify, but the tiering system FAQ simply says that it needs to be established as qualitatively superior to those concepts to be valid, so that argument isn't supported by our current standards.

Ultima disagrees because he thinks that my focus on the kanjis "超える" and "越える" is nitpicky, and that they both mean the same thing (which is something I'll tackle after he answers my most recent question).

Both of them say that simply being beyond space-time and dimensions isn't enough to qualify for Low 1-C. The main problem with this is that the kanjis used in the original Kirby texts actually imply a qualitative superiority when referring to Another Dimension's transcendence. Not to mention there's a few contextual clues that support it even further.

I assume you're asking for bullet points because you're busy, but I very highly recommend you read my blog to get a better understanding.
 

ElixirBlue

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Everything12 disagrees. He says that a superiority over space-time or dimensions needs to be proven to be uncountably infinite in order to qualify, but the tiering system FAQ simply says that it needs to be established as qualitatively superior to those concepts to be valid, so that argument isn't supported by our current standards.

Deleting my last post as I quickly realized my mistake.

Quote:
"Simply transcending a single 4-D structure wouldn't take into account of transcending all of them.

It's like being 2-C. You can destroy multiple 4-D structures, but it's just multiple 4-D structures. And there can be up to an infinite amount. Much like Low 2-C: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Shown here, 4-D is being infinitely above 3-D. The same goes for tier 1 as a whole. You need to be a higher infinite. Not stay in the same level of infinite by adding more of the same infinite.

Quoting the tier 1 section, "Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

Sorry, I can't agree with the CRT right now. 😞
 
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Quote:
"Simply transcending a single 4-D structure wouldn't take into account of transcending all of them.
I've shown evidence that it transcends all of them, but even if it only transcended one, why would that matter? The tier 1 requirements simply state that you need to be qualitatively superior to the space-time continuum as a whole, not every space-time continuum in the cosmology (although I assume that would come with it). What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?
It's like being 2-C. You can destroy multiple 4-D structures, but it's just multiple 4-D structures. And there can be up to an infinite amount. Much like Low 2-C: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Shown here, 4-D is being infinitely above 3-D. The same goes for tier 1 as a whole. You need to be a higher infinite. Not stay in the same level of infinite by adding more of the same infinite.
This right here looks alot more than a support to my argument than a refute. Being Low 1-C is indeed like being 2-C, but on an infinitely higher scale, and in this case, the space of AD is qualitatively larger than not only 3D space, but also 4D time, which, as you said, is qualitatively superior to an infinitely sized 3D space. AD is also stated to be superior to the pre-established dimensions of the verse, which includes 4D space-time continuums. It sounds like you're saying that AD is finitely larger than an infinite concept. So I'll just ask again how that makes any sense.
Quoting the tier 1 section, "Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."
The FAQ also says:
"However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions."
and
"Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."

You can't even say that this is just me taking the FAQ out of context, because other Low 1-C upgrades operate by the same logic according to staff. I really don't want to bring Archie Sonic into this, but if I have to, I'll compare them side by side and show you that they meet the same requirements (albeit for slightly different reasons)
 

ElixirBlue

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Shoot, I was going to rewrite that.

But yeah, I don’t believe the cosmologies are one-to-one to compare.
 
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They're not one to one to compare, but they don't need to be. If I'm allowed to derail, I can show you why, but first, you and Ultima still have to answer my questions. Also, why would the Kirby verse having infinite universes even matter to a Low 1-C ranking to begin with? Once again, the FAQ and the tiering system don't say anything about that being a requirement.
 
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Alright then. That's two questions for Ultima and one for you.
I've shown evidence that it transcends all of them, but even if it only transcended one, why would that matter? The tier 1 requirements simply state that you need to be qualitatively superior to the space-time continuum as a whole, not every space-time continuum in the cosmology (although I assume that would come with it). What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?
This right here looks alot more than a support to my argument than a refute. Being Low 1-C is indeed like being 2-C, but on an infinitely higher scale, and in this case, the space of AD is qualitatively larger than not only 3D space, but also 4D time, which, as you said, is qualitatively superior to an infinitely sized 3D space. AD is also stated to be superior to the pre-established dimensions of the verse, which includes 4D space-time continuums. It sounds like you're saying that AD is finitely larger than an infinite concept. So I'll just ask again how that makes any sense.
I'm still counting all of the votes of those who disagree with the CRT, but I find it very odd how it's 100% staff and yet next to none of the arguments are even remotely supported by the Tiering System FAQ.
 

ElixirBlue

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Do you think the statements can in any way affect the tier? I still agree with low 1-C but I'm asking your opinion specifically
Oh yeah. You also have this to answer.
Well, if you want me to answer.

My opinion is focusing on getting 2-C for now. I’m still in the process of learning how to help accept tier 1 stuff. But from what I’m told, the blog is missing the necessary requirement for tier 1.

Also, have you check this page out?
 
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Also, have you check this page out?
The fact that you're asking me this question despite the fact that I've been quoting the FAQ ever since the start of this discussion brings your overall disagreement with my CRT into question. It also means you haven't even read my blog, since it directly quotes the FAQ to prove that Low 1-C Kirby cosmology is up to date with our current standards. You NEED to catch up, man. Don't just blindly disagree with something just because other staff members do. At least read the blog...
My opinion is focusing on getting 2-C for now. I’m still in the process of learning how to help accept tier 1 stuff.
We already HAVE 2-C. Kirby cosmology has been 2-C for a long long while now. Kirby's tier may not be 2-C but I already said that this thread isn't a tier upgrade. Also, if you're still in the process of learning how to accept tier 1 stuff, why don't you go Neutral? Were you neutral this whole time and I just misunderstood what you meant by "I can't agree with this CRT right now"?
 

ElixirBlue

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Don't just blindly disagree with something just because other staff members do. At least read the blog...
Oh, I didn’t “disagree” because other staff did. Other users (non-staff) on the site aware of the CRT disagreed and I asked why in which they explained.

Ultimately, I realize I didn’t enough knowledge to help out with Kirby’s CRT to help his verse reach tier 1.

Also, if you're still in the process of learning how to accept tier 1 stuff, why don't you go Neutral? Were you neutral this whole time and I just misunderstood what you meant by "I can't agree with this CRT right now"?
I made a comment earlier giving support to this CRT and saying I agreed with the blog. I deleted it, which is why I said,

Sorry, I can't agree with the CRT right now. 😞

in case you saw it.
 
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I didn't see it, but I would have liked to, because right now, I don't see any good reason for you to disagree tbh. If you've read the blog, you can see that it follows the standards of the FAQ. All of the counter-arguments I've seen either rely on stuff that isn't a part of the official requirements or how I translated the kanjis. I guess all we can do is wait for Ultima to show up and answer this butt-load of questions we have for him... Then if you want, I can elaborate on the kanjis used in the Kirby descriptions and how the tier 1 evidence is just as compelling for him as it is Archie Sonic (and many other series).
 
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List of questions for Ultima. I'm gonna go message him real quick. He seems to have forgotten about this.
Hmm, so what do you propose to be the tier???
Also, why would the Kirby verse having infinite universes even matter to a Low 1-C ranking to begin with?
What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?
Do you think the statements can in any way affect the tier? I still agree with low 1-C but I'm asking your opinion specifically
If, hypothetically, Another Dimension was confirmed to be beyond the mathematical concept of dimensions and not simply beyond parallel dimensions/universes, would that qualify for Low 1-C?
I fail to see how something that’s described as beyond/transcending time and dimensions isn’t low 1-C by the tiering system. Even if it’s a “tunnel” of sorts connecting dimensions, don’t see why it can’t be a 5D bulk space and I also don’t see how some regular inter-dimensional tunnel would be described as superior to space-time and dimensions in whatever language.
 

Ultima_Reality

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So, I just crawled back from the abyss. Sorry for any interference my absence may have caused.

Hmm, so what do you propose to be the tier???
I'm not knowledgeable on Kirby, so, no idea on that one, but as far as I see the statements themselves are unquantifiable.

Also, why would the Kirby verse having infinite universes even matter to a Low 1-C ranking to begin with?
It doesn't really matter, no. If you hold an uncountably infinite superiority over a Low 2-C structure, you're Low 1-C. Everything between 2-C and 2-A is just an extension of Low 2-C as is, so they're included in that.

What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?
That doesn't really make much sense, no, and as for why, refer to the response immediately above this one.

If, hypothetically, Another Dimension was confirmed to be beyond the mathematical concept of dimensions and not simply beyond parallel dimensions/universes, would that qualify for Low 1-C?
If it's just qualitatively superior to the dimensions that physically exist in the setting, then, assuming the verse only consists of standard 4-dimensional spacetime, that'd be a Low 1-C feat. Transcending the mathematical concept of dimensions as a whole would be defaulted to 1-A, though, and in principle can go even higher, so you'll probably need some really good back-up for that claim.

I fail to see how something that’s described as beyond/transcending time and dimensions isn’t low 1-C by the tiering system. Even if it’s a “tunnel” of sorts connecting dimensions, don’t see why it can’t be a 5D bulk space and I also don’t see how some regular inter-dimensional tunnel would be described as superior to space-time and dimensions in whatever language.
My point to begin with was moreso that terms like "Beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on don't really indicate superiority on their own, and can just as well indicate that something is external to a given structure, which we never took as evidence for the degree of superiority needed for Low 1-C, at least not without more context supporting it.
 
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I don’t know enough about Kirby to make a definitive answer, but I assume that people are already somewhat knowledgeable on the tiering system, so as long as the cosmology follows that, then I have no problems with Low 1C
 
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So, I just crawled back from the abyss. Sorry for any interference my absence may have caused.
Lol, it's fine. I get it. Just by looking at your message wall, you seem kind of overworked. I just hope you stick around in this thread a while longer, because I still see no reason why this shouldn't be Low 1-C by our tiering system's own logic.
I'm not knowledgeable on Kirby, so, no idea on that one, but as far as I see the statements themselves are unquantifiable.
Which means that if the kanjis "超える" do refer to a superiority, rather than being outside or crossing something. you'll accept this as Low 1-C? That would make sense since it is what the FAQ says, but alot of people in numerous threads are saying that said superiority needs to be proven to be infinite, which is a ridiculous demand in this context. They seem to be making up new requirements that aren't even in the FAQ just to deny an upgrade.
It doesn't really matter, no. If you hold an uncountably infinite superiority over a Low 2-C structure, you're Low 1-C. Everything between 2-C and 2-A is just an extension of Low 2-C as is, so they're included in that.
That doesn't really make much sense, no, and as for why, refer to the response immediately above this one.
Alright. Glad we agree on that. Elexir was the one who brought up these misconceptions, but I'm not even sure if he believes them himself or if he just thinks that was how the Wiki standards worked. Either way, we figured it was best to ask you, and now it should be easier to compare Kirby to Archie Sonic with this in mind (although I still don't want to resort to this).
If it's just qualitatively superior to the dimensions that physically exist in the setting, then, assuming the verse only consists of standard 4-dimensional spacetime, that'd be a Low 1-C feat. Transcending the mathematical concept of dimensions as a whole would be defaulted to 1-A, though, and in principle can go even higher, so you'll probably need some really good back-up for that claim.
Oh god no. There's nothing else to back-up 1-A Kirby cosmology. I really don't want it to be legit anyway. However, I still think what I'm about to show you would serve as good evidence for Low 1-C since it makes it undeniably clear that a qualitative superiority to a concept is what they're referring to rather than just being outside of something. I'm gonna compile all of the Low 1-C evidence that didn't make it into my blog (because I didn't think it was necessary) and put it in my next post. In the meantime, I'd like to know what your thoughts are on Kirby cosmology being "Likely" or "Possibly" Low 1-C.
My point to begin with was moreso that terms like "Beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on don't really indicate superiority on their own, and can just as well indicate that something is external to a given structure, which we never took as evidence for the degree of superiority needed for Low 1-C, at least not without more context supporting it.
As far as context goes, it makes up the space between dimensions, and acts as a gateway to any space-time coordinate in the multiverse including the past of the distant realm of the Dream Kingdom. I explain this in my blog, and this seems like enough evidence that it's a bulk space given the other blatant statements.
 
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I don’t know enough about Kirby to make a definitive answer, but I assume that people are already somewhat knowledgeable on the tiering system, so as long as the cosmology follows that, then I have no problems with Low 1C
Is that a neutral vote or an agreement vote?
 
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"Transcending" doesn't have to give a higher-dimensionality by default.

It easily could just mean existing separately from a place which doesn't say much for a tiering. I feel like our standards for Tier 1 would be really low if any and all "transcending" dimensions statements meant the verse is Tier 1.

In the Mario thread that got closed down, it was argued you need definitive proof beyond "transcending" that this other realm characters transcend to is qualitatively superior. I'm seeing none of that here, personally.

You can quite literally say "it connects other dimensions and universes" and these statements of "exceeding" and "transcending" would still be accurate. AD could simply just be a bigger separate 4-D structure linking to the rest of the worlds/universes/dimensions. The proof for exceeding time has a direct mention that placing the Galacta Knight thing on the timeline is hard because the road exceeds/transcends time and all that. Isn't this literally just another way of saying "time works different" for AD? It exceeds other's concept of time because time behaves differently, thus allowing for temporal anomalies as well as spacial ones. It's not saying time doesn't exist there at all, is it? Has that ever been stated? We need more than "exceeding time" because you could also descrive a character resisting time stop as "exceeding" of being "beyond" time.

Better proof were if we had a statement of it transcending universes AND dimensions, showing a clear distinction in what they mean by "dimensions" because the universes themselves are treated as and often referred to as dimensions. "Extra-dimensional" (you can have another dimension exists without it having to automatically be assumed to be a higher mathematical dimension), space between dimensions (which can very likely mean universes as we know Kirby uses them interchangeably), and arguing semantics behind translations isn't exactly great proof. It's all vague and highly interpretational. I feel like Tier 1 deserves more definitive qualifications as these seem rather, err... Generous, to say the least.

So no, I don't really ageee at the moment.
 
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"Transcending" doesn't have to give a higher-dimensionality by default.

It easily could just mean existing separately from a place which doesn't say much for a tiering. I feel like our standards for Tier 1 would be really low if any and all "transcending" dimensions statements meant the verse is Tier 1.

In the Mario thread that got closed down, it was argued you need definitive proof beyond "transcending" that this other realm characters transcend to is qualitatively superior. I'm seeing none of that here, personally.

You can quite literally say "it connects other dimensions and universes" and these statements of "exceeding" and "transcending" would still be accurate. AD could simply just be a bigger separate 4-D structure linking to the rest of the worlds/universes/dimensions. The proof for exceeding time has a direct mention that placing the Galacta Knight thing on the timeline is hard because the road exceeds/transcends time and all that. Isn't this literally just another way of saying "time works different" for AD? It exceeds other's concept of time because time behaves differently, thus allowing for temporal anomalies as well as spacial ones. It's not saying time doesn't exist there at all, is it? Has that ever been stated? We need more than "exceeding time" because you could also descrive a character resisting time stop as "exceeding" of being "beyond" time.

Better proof were if we had a statement of it transcending universes AND dimensions, showing a clear distinction in what they mean by "dimensions" because the universes themselves are treated as and often referred to as dimensions. "Extra-dimensional" (you can have another dimension exists without it having to automatically be assumed to be a higher mathematical dimension), space between dimensions (which can very likely mean universes as we know Kirby uses them interchangeably), and arguing semantics behind translations isn't exactly great proof. It's all vague and highly interpretational. I feel like Tier 1 deserves more definitive qualifications as these seem rather, err... Generous, to say the least.

So no, I don't really ageee at the moment.
Well, the thing is that you could make this argument, but you'd also need proof to show that dimensions don't work in a reality to fiction matter or even that it's not referring to a character being of a higher level of existence due to contradictory feats. That's why I'm staying neutral, rather than blatantly disagreeing.
 
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"Transcending" doesn't have to give a higher-dimensionality by default.

It easily could just mean existing separately from a place which doesn't say much for a tiering. I feel like our standards for Tier 1 would be really low if any and all "transcending" dimensions statements meant the verse is Tier 1.
"Transcending" isn't what this thread is about. I wish people would stop coming here misinformed about what the blog is about and actually read it the whole way through. I'll still count your disagreement, but so far, Ultima is the only one who actually went through the effort of arguing against the main point of my argument. The kanjis used in the OG Kirby descriptions and Tweets (超える) refer to an actual superiority. In this case, over the concepts of space, time and dimensions as a whole. It doesn't leave room for interpretation like the words "transcend" or "beyond" do. With this in mind, your best shot at debunking the upgrade is to say that I'm wrong about my usage of kanjis. By the tiering system, there's no other way this upgrade couldn't be legitimate. Ultima attempted this, but I'll debunk his refutes in my next big post. I'm also going to include a lot of my unused evidence that didn't make it into the blog so stay tuned for that.
In the Mario thread that got closed down, it was argued you need definitive proof beyond "transcending" that this other realm characters transcend to is qualitatively superior. I'm seeing none of that here, personally.

You can quite literally say "it connects other dimensions and universes" and these statements of "exceeding" and "transcending" would still be accurate. AD could simply just be a bigger separate 4-D structure linking to the rest of the worlds/universes/dimensions. The proof for exceeding time has a direct mention that placing the Galacta Knight thing on the timeline is hard because the road exceeds/transcends time and all that. Isn't this literally just another way of saying "time works different" for AD? It exceeds other's concept of time because time behaves differently, thus allowing for temporal anomalies as well as spacial ones. It's not saying time doesn't exist there at all, is it? Has that ever been stated?
If anything, the fact that time works weirdly in it and that it's seemingly called the "time realm" in an official Tweet supports Low 1-C more than anything else. (The space we see in Galacta-Knight's attack is extremely heavily implied to be Another Dimension and there's no other realm his attack name could realistically be referring to) Considering how blatant the statements are and the supplementary evidence, it takes less mental gymnastics to say that it's a bulk space than to say that "time works weirdly in an unexplored unspecific way, especially considering the users of Another Dimension's road get to chose when and where they want to go rather than being warped to a random coordinate as if it's just some... wacky time travel warp tube?
We need more than "exceeding time" because you could also descrive a character resisting time stop as "exceeding" of being "beyond" time.
"Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions."
-Tiering System FAQ

"Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."
-Tierng System FAQ

"And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes."
-Speed Page


https://vsbattles.com/threads/chaos-force-low-1-c-upgrade.113574/post-3632888 (See Ultima's reply. It's taken slightly out of context, but the fact remains that a realm's qualitative superiority over either space-time or dimensions is enough for Low 1-C)
Better proof were if we had a statement of it transcending universes AND dimensions, showing a clear distinction in what they mean by "dimensions" because the universes themselves are treated as and often referred to as dimensions.
If I can prove that the superiority over dimensions stated in this Tweet refers to mathematical dimensions rather than universes, will you agree with Low 1-C? If not, what more could possibly be needed?
 
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"Transcending" isn't what this thread is about. I wish people would stop coming here misinformed about what the blog is about and actually read it the whole way through. I'll still count your disagreement, but so far, Ultima is the only one who actually went through the effort of arguing against the main point of my argument. The kanjis used in the OG Kirby descriptions and Tweets (超える) refer to an actual superiority. In this case, over the concepts of space, time and dimensions as a whole. It doesn't leave room for interpretation like the words "transcend" or "beyond" do. With this in mind, your best shot at debunking the upgrade is to say that I'm wrong about my usage of kanjis. By the tiering system, there's no other way this upgrade couldn't be legitimate. Ultima attempted this, but I'll debunk his refutes in my next big post. I'm also going to include a lot of my unused evidence that didn't make it into the blog so stay tuned for that.

If anything, the fact that time works weirdly in it and that it's seemingly called the "time realm" in an official Tweet supports Low 1-C more than anything else. (The space we see in Galacta-Knight's attack is extremely heavily implied to be Another Dimension and there's no other realm his attack name could realistically be referring to) Considering how blatant the statements are and the supplementary evidence, it takes less mental gymnastics to say that it's a bulk space than to say that "time works weirdly in an unexplored unspecific way, especially considering the users of Another Dimension's road get to chose when and where they want to go rather than being warped to a random coordinate as if it's just some... wacky time travel warp tube?

"Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions."
-Tiering System FAQ

"Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."
-Tierng System FAQ

"And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes."
-Speed Page


https://vsbattles.com/threads/chaos-force-low-1-c-upgrade.113574/post-3632888 (See Ultima's reply. It's taken slightly out of context, but the fact remains that a realm's qualitative superiority over either space-time or dimensions is enough for Low 1-C)

If I can prove that the superiority over dimensions stated in this Tweet refers to mathematical dimensions rather than universes, will you agree with Low 1-C? If not, what more could possibly be needed?
Tbf, I do agree with this. I think it's better to first read through the actual arguments and point out flaws in them rather than just denying stuff with misinformation. That said, I'm not overly knowledgeable when it comes to things like 1C or even 1B, hence I'll say neutral, something I've already said. But I do agree with this stuff here, but I will need to learn a bit more about this stuff before agreeing to this upgrade.
 
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Bump
Which means that if the kanjis "超える" do refer to a superiority, rather than being outside or crossing something. you'll accept this as Low 1-C?
In the meantime, I'd like to know what your thoughts are on Kirby cosmology being "Likely" or "Possibly" Low 1-C.
If I can prove that the superiority over dimensions stated in this Tweet refers to mathematical dimensions rather than universes, will you agree with Low 1-C? If not, what more could possibly be needed?
 

Everything12

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
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I'm not sure what the point of comparison is, because unlike this the Expanse has more evidence to show the Expanse has the qualitative difference needed for Tier 1.
 
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Bump.
Let's see this one through. I know these kinds of upgrades can be tiring, but we can't allow this to go down like the last thread.
 
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