Alovenus and Ruphas downgrade

[Darksmash]

I know CRTs aren't easy, I ain't no dumb dumb. But if you're gonna voice your disagreement, like, as a serious disagreement and not as a stupid joke, at least try to put in the work to get what you want.

Let's not derail though, I'm pretty much neutral on this entire thing.

Did you forget we are literally talking on a thread that already does that? What is wrong with voicing my opinions about Alovenus not deserving her tier on a thread that literally debunks her?

 

[Ningenron]

Uh... "stop taking everything at face value"

Cool, posting something that already got contradicted in the later parts where the ones whom are faster than her were getting faster by multiplying their speed with Infinite and finite values, not to mention the flawed usage of Infinite in the series.

 

[Darksmash]

Do you agree or disagree with it? I personally find myself neutral cause R>F is definitely one of the most solid ways to prove higher dimensions/higher infinities in fiction, but it's also easy to misinterpret it as well.

I agree with it. R>F doesn't mean anything on its own. It can also be a finite difference of power

 

[azontr]

Did you forget we are literally talking on a thread that already does that? What is wrong with voicing my opinions about Alovenus not deserving her tier on a thread that literally debunks her?

This CRT isn't good.

I myself am neutral, but the entire thread is pretty much attempting to nit-pick while applying real world physics and definitions to something that doesn't really apply to the real-world. I'm not gonna continue this as to not start shit, but if you want a downgrade, do better than this.

 

[Tarang123]

I agree with it. R>F doesn't mean anything on its own. It can also be a finite difference of power

I suppose. Simply holding R>F doesn't mean much, and there are other factors that would be required to make a true qualitatively superior realm/layer

 

[azontr]

I suppose. Simply holding R>F doesn't mean much, and there are other factors that would be required to make a true qualitatively superior realm/layer

Perhaps. But isn't that just how we treat dimensions in tier 1? I think you'd have to revise the standards to make R>F not valid.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Cool, posting something that already got contradicted in the later parts where the ones whom are faster than her were getting faster by multiplying their speed with Infinite and finite values, not to mention the flawed usage of Infinite in the series.

How is that contradicted? Their plot manipulation allows them to get faster than the opponent, even Benetnash who is infinitely faster than infinite. I don't see whats contradicting her infinite speed, or the fact they can simply be any amount faster than her than they want due to transcendence. The wiki allows for this, as just like there are different layers to dimensions, there is baseline and above. Certain passives are considered to be infinite speed, yet there are things faster than that

 

[Tarang123]

This CRT isn't good.

I myself am neutral, but the entire thread is pretty much attempting to nit-pick while applying real world physics and definitions to something that doesn't really apply to the real-world. I'm not gonna continue this as to not start shit, but if you want a downgrade, do better than this.

While I generally disagree with using irl stuff to contradict fiction, all the OP does is point out contradictions in the logic that was layed out earlier, so no I don't think that's enough to call it a "not good" CRT.

 

[Tarang123]

Perhaps. But isn't that just how we treat dimensions in tier 1? I think you'd have to revise the standards to make R>F not valid.

My point was that they aren't automatically Tier 1. There's likely more context that needs to be there to prove it. For example, there are some verses that hit all the right notes that qualify for higher dimensions (won't name drop them cause yeah)

 

[azontr]

While I generally disagree with using irl stuff to contradict fiction, all the OP does is point out contradictions in the logic that was layed out earlier, so no I don't think that's enough to call it a "not good" CRT.

Fair point, I'm actually not very smart. That's fair, but a few minor contradictions or shit logic isn't really enough to warrant a downgrade in my opinion.

 

[Tarang123]

Fair point, I'm actually not very smart. That's fair, but a few minor contradictions or shit logic isn't really enough to warrant a downgrade in my opinion.

I think the R>F stuff is definitely extremely fair. And I even believe it's extremely well thought-out, so I think that's fine. As for the irl physics stuff, I couldn't care less about that, I was just pointing out that it doesn't make the thread bad.

We're all dumb tbh, so you're not alone.

 

[Worthless]

I'm the only one seeing it idk how is this even being discussed over ¯\(ツ)/¯

Dude is probably the type who will believe destroying nothingness in fiction is impossible cause of real life standard.

Fact he thinks creating and destroying a concept can't be applied cause shit RL rules and the fact he thinks "If he really can erase anything then why he can't erase this" as if he doesn't know the existence of resistance to existence erasure.

Seriously why people agreeing with the OP lmfao.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

I'm the only one seeing it idk how is this even being discussed over ¯\(ツ)/¯

Dude is probably the type who will believe destroying nothingness in fiction is impossible cause of real life standard.

Fact he thinks creating and destroying a concept can't be applied cause shit RL rules and the fact he thinks "If he really can erase anything why he can't erase this" as if he doesn't know the existence of resistance to existence erasure.

Seriously why people agreeing with the OP lmfao.

Literally what it sounds like, lmao. For example, the goddess's unbreakable sword was broken, because Ruphas transcended that, not because the unbreakable part is a lie

 

[Tarang123]

Dude is probably the type who will believe destroying nothingness in fiction is impossible cause of real life standard.

If you actually look at most of the thread, he's not inserting irl physics stuff into all of it.

Fact he thinks creating and destroying a concept can't be applied cause shit RL rules and the fact he thinks "If he really can erase anything then why he can't erase this" as if he doesn't know the existence of resistance to existence erasure.

The point was that it's hyperbolic by nature lmao. I don't know if it's a good idea to immediately assume that the OP doesn't know what a measly resistance is lol.

 

[Tarang123]

Literally what it sounds like, lmao. For example, the goddess's unbreakable sword was broken, because Ruphas transcended that, not because the unbreakable part is a lie

Yeah, but it does prove that it's likely just hyperbolic cause if it was truly invincible, then merely transcending it wouldn't enough if one were to just use brute force. They'd need other methods. That's literally the definition of being invincible

 

[Darksmash]

This CRT isn't good.

I myself am neutral, but the entire thread is pretty much attempting to nit-pick while applying real world physics and definitions to something that doesn't really apply to the real-world. I'm not gonna continue this as to not start shit, but if you want a downgrade, do better than this.

If you don't think a thread highlighting so many contradictions and flaws in the verse "is not good" then I guess all I can do is sit back and laugh at how bad this wiki's consensus has become.

 

[azontr]

Literally what it sounds like, lmao. For example, the goddess's unbreakable sword was broken, because Ruphas transcended that, not because the unbreakable part is a lie

I think the OP is just trying to point out some contradictions in the logic and some hyperbole lol. Which. a lot of series use hyperbole. Looking at you Dragon Ball.


I may have been a bit harsh because I've lost 20% of my brain probably.

If you don't think a thread highlighting so many contradictions and flaws in the verse "is not good" then I guess all I can do is sit back and laugh at how bad this wiki's consensus has become.

OK.

 

[Darksmash]

Anyway, this thread was not made for vswiki. It was made by a user on comicvine that has been copy pasted here, hence it isn't compatible with the standards and consensus of this wiki and should be closed

 

[Cultivator_Daemon]

I agree with the downgrades.

Literally what it sounds like, lmao. For example, the goddess's unbreakable sword was broken, because Ruphas transcended that, not because the unbreakable part is a lie

If the supposedly unbreakable sword broke, then it wasn't unbreakable in the first place. If was unbreakable then it wouldn't matter how many times she transcended the sword won't break regardless hence the term unbreakable. But it broke, so it isn't unbreakable.

 

[Tarang123]

Agreed, while the logic definitely makes sense on a logical standpoint, it doesn't seem to fit with the criteria of this wiki

 

[azontr]

Anyway, this thread was not made for vswiki. It was made by a user on comicvine that has been copy pasted here, hence it isn't compatible with the standards and consensus of this wiki and should be closed

Bruh if you agree with it why u want it to be closed lol. Just a joke, don't wanna start shit again.

 

[Odinson]

Bruh

 

[Worthless]

If you actually look at most of the thread, he's not inserting irl physics stuff into all of it.


The point was that it's hyperbolic by nature lmao. I don't know if it's a good idea to immediately assume that the OP doesn't know what a measly resistance is lol.

Fiction could go whatever the way they want to. Applying logic to a fiction to contradict fictional feats is ridiculous lol.

 

[Darksmash]

Bruh if you agree with it why u want it to be closed lol. Just a joke, don't wanna start shit again.

I agree with it but I also agree that no one on this website would agree with it

 

[Tarang123]

I agree with the downgrades.

If the supposedly unbreakable sword broke, then it wasn't unbreakable in the first place. If was unbreakable then it wouldn't matter how many times she transcended the sword won't break regardless hence the term unbreakable. But it broke, so it isn't unbreakable.

Well, that's not that true. I believe the sword being unbreakable would be like invulnerability, which is mainly to brute force alone, so some kind of special hax should be enough for that, but I agree that the stuff in the thread is grossly underrated, albeit the thread should be closed and arguments revised before trying again.

 

[Darksmash]

Fiction could go whatever the way they want to. Applying logic to a fiction to contradict fictional feats is ridiculous lol.

Super Buu is beyond Omnipotence

 

[azontr]

Well, that's not that true. I believe the sword being unbreakable would be like invulnerability, which is mainly to brute force alone, so some kind of special hax should be enough for that, but I agree that the stuff in the thread is grossly underrated, albeit the thread should be closed and arguments revised before trying again.

It'd be invulnerability negation, which falls under power nullification if I understand correctly.

 

[Tarang123]

Fiction could go whatever the way they want to. Applying logic to a fiction to contradict fictional feats is ridiculous lol.

And it's just as stupid to criticize someone who's merely pointing out contradictions in the logic in said fiction lmao.

 

[Tarang123]

It'd be invulnerability negation, which falls under power nullification if I understand correctly.

Is it, tho? Cause on the invulnerability page, it says that some kind of durability negating hax should be enough to bypass it.

 

[azontr]

Is it, tho? Cause on the invulnerability page, it says that some kind of durability negating hax should be enough to bypass it.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maaaaybe. Probably.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

I agree with the downgrades.

If the supposedly unbreakable sword broke, then it wasn't unbreakable in the first place. If was unbreakable then it wouldn't matter how many times she transcended the sword won't break regardless hence the term unbreakable. But it broke, so it isn't unbreakable.

No, the sword gained its being unbreakable, but through transcendence, she was able to break it, as her desire to win was stronger than Alovenus. If anything, that HELPS them, rather than hurts. You could claim something unbreakable, and someone higher than you INFINITELY, will indeed break it. What you're assuming, is that the sword is unbreakable by anyone, which makes no sense towards the actual novel(where Ruphas was made to counter Alovenus with said abilities)

 

[Worthless]

And it's just as stupid to criticize someone who's merely pointing out contradictions in the logic in said fiction lmao.

No it's not. The fact that it's a FICTION should already tells you everything that applying logic to it is just nonsensical

 

[azontr]

No it's not. The fact that it's a FICTION should already tells you everything that applying logic is just nonsense

Bruh.

 

[Shyouu]

I agree with Darksmash, that this should be closed, as there's literally no proposals being made here, simply just pointing out contradictions, that should be addressed in a proper downgrade thread.

 

[Tarang123]

No, the sword gained its being unbreakable, but through transcendence, she was able to break it, as her desire to win was stronger than Alovenus. If anything, that HELPS them, rather than hurts. You could claim something unbreakable, and someone higher than you INFINITELY, will indeed break it. What you're assuming, is that the sword is unbreakable by anyone, which makes no sense towards the actual novel(where Ruphas was made to counter Alovenus with said abilities)

It just proves the hyperbole lmao. If raw power can break something that's "unbreakable", then it's not unbreakable

 

[Enter_Bluey]

It just proves the hyperbole lmao. If raw power can break something that's "unbreakable", then it's not unbreakable

Thats the point of "TRANSCENDENCE" btw, you're infinitely above something. If it didn't, that would then be NLF, which people would also be complaining about. It's simple really, the sword is unbreakable, as Alovenus was the strongest, yet Ruphas transcended her faster, and thus TRANSCENDED everything she had. Not simply just "raw power", that would be like saying Goku has an unbreakable sword, yet broly broke it. No, this quite different

 

[azontr]

Thats the point of "TRANSCENDENCE" btw, you're infinitely above something. If it didn't, that would then be NLF, which people would also be complaining about. It's simple really, the sword is unbreakable, as Alovenus was the strongest, yet Ruphas transcended her faster, and thus TRANSCENDED everything she had. Not simply just "raw power", that would be like saying Goku has an unbreakable sword, yet broly broke it. No, this quite different

Transcendence doesn't bypass abilities unless it works like that in series.

Like, let's say we have a 10-B character with invulnerability, but a Low 1-C character who doesn't have the ability to negate invulnerability. Transcendence doesn't make the 10-B's invulnerability moot unless the Low 1-C can bypass it.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Transcendence doesn't bypass abilities unless it works like that in series.

Like, let's say we have a 10-B character with invulnerability, but a Low 1-C character who doesn't have the ability to negate invulnerability. Transcendence doesn't make the 10-B's invulnerability moot unless the Low 1-C can bypass it.

No actually that is how it works, if you're dimensionally above someone, you will bypass invulnerability, immunities, resistances, etc. They can't comprehend you

 

[Ningenron]

How is that contradicted?

The fact that finite shit makes it faster.....?

Their plot manipulation allows them to get faster than the opponent,

Since when Multiplying with speed of light is plot manipulation :/

even Benetnash who is infinitely faster than infinite. I don't see whats contradicting her infinite speed,

That's not how infinite works buddy.

The wiki allows for this, as just like there are different layers to dimensions, there is baseline and above. Certain passives are considered to be infinite speed, yet there are things faster than that

Ok? not sure how is irrelevant or related to what I said.

 

[azontr]

No actually that is how it works, if you're dimensionally above someone, you will bypass invulnerability, immunities, resistances, etc. They can't comprehend you

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, don't think so bro.