Time to fit the (literal) god of DC comics as well as the others in our new tiering system

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ant, I don't disrespect you. Certainly not to the level you're implying. I merely disagree with you and your conclusions and actions. That is all.

And again, what does this have to do with the thread?

 

[Antvasima]

If I remember correctly, Ultima also told me that much of the point of the new system was to make it more generalised and evenhanded.

In cases where there is scarce context as to the exact difference between each "layer" in 1-A, in which case we would just consider it as one level above however high the stuff being transcended is. If there is additional context showing that a Reality-Fiction can be higher than one level of "transcendence", then we treat it like that.

Well, I still don't really understand why a few levels of transcendence should be treated as equal or superior to an infinite amount, but I am not the best informed person to ask, and seem to be outvoted anyway.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We already explained that they aren't "few levels of transcendence", Ant. You cannot simply look at all of fiction through this one biased lens. We alreayd did all we could to explain these things to you.

Also

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2744717#262

Sera has already agreed with the Writer's existence in the past. I don't see why she needs to be called here. We already had this same discussion a bunch of times. And everytime it happens I just find more evidence that supports it.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, I don't disrespect you. Certainly not to the level you're implying. I merely disagree with you and your conclusions and actions. That is all.

And again, what does this have to do with the thread?

Well, I was referring to how you have been treating me via PMs as well, and you were the one who started to turn this thread into unfair ad hominem accusations of me using facades and having a deliberate agenda.

I agree that this is derailing the thread though. We should drop the topic.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Have Sera, DontTalk, or DarkLK agreed with scaling the Overvoid and the Writer to our highest tiers according to the new system?

 

[Kepekley23]

That's not the line.

The latter statement is never made or implied by the interview and it's something we pretty much forced into it. Yes, something was drawn on the canvas much like ink, but as blatantly stated, the ink in this case is the Monitor himself.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it doesn't. The ink is put on the Overvoid by another entity. The ink is the imperceptible and mysterious "flaw" that baflfed The Overmonitor as described in Final Crisis and Multiversity.

 

[Kepekley23]

Never stated or implied anywhere, so no. The actual interview outright states the Monitor is the one who condensed the story outta himself and he is simply pissed off with that.

 

[By_My_Neck]

I thought that the Eonymous is the Writer?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Never stated or implied anywhere, so no. The actual interview outright states the Monitor is the one who condensed the story outta himself and he is simply pissed off with that.

Read the text. That's blatantly not what it says. I don't know how you can struggle with simple English but that's not it. The Overmonitor is basically unconscious anyway.

"And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'."
The act of condensing stories refers to the Overmonitor originating the Monitors to contain and preserve the story of DC Comics that is found within its white expanse. ALso note that language used by Morrison there: "This DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn' "

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, the Monitor-Mind condensed the story of the Monitor out of itself in order to contain the "Flaw" (which is supposed to be the Inkblot from which all of DC was formed) and prevent its spread. Multiversity even points that before the Flaw was drawn within it, the Overvoid was simply a nameless, unconscious void of perfection, which only gained something resembling sentience after it defined its own relationship to something else.

 

[Kepekley23]

Look at the context. By drawn, he means "created" - by lower entities who also came from the void. Thats why the word is between quotes, because its not literally saying the multiverse was drawn by anyone. Its also why its referred to as a mere stain on its back.

 

[Kepekley23]

The fact that literally no one in any official capacity has alluded to this supposed meta composite supreme being should tell us a thing or two about its existence.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Everything is a stain on the Overmonitor. The entire DC Universe is compared to a microbe in it. The fact that it is described in such terms is wholly inconsequential. Likewise, the DC Multiverse wasn't created by lower entities. In the whole context of the interview Grant is talking about it being formed from a stain left on the page by another entity.

Also, ever heard of allusions, subtly and clever storytelling? That the thing that drew DC on the white page is thr writer is the most obvious thing in the world.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I should also point out that the Animal Man issue where the Writer appears wasn't forgotten or anything like that, especially when the Limbo makes an appearance in Superman Beyond, and the Book of Infinite Pages being written by a monkey is also a plotpoint from Animal Man 25 being referenced here.

Nevermind that the comic itself also delves into the same type of metafiction, such as in the scene where the Thought Robot feels the presence of the Reader and describes it as "immense and beyond understanding".

 

[Kepekley23]

Yes, it was. Compared to the Monitor, even Vertigo YHWh is less than nothing, so the creators of the DC Multiverse are al lower entities in comparison.

Also, how can something be told through "subtle srorytelling" and simultaneously still be the most obvious thing ever? Sounds more like there is simply no evidence to begin with...

 

[Antvasima]

How does this fit with that Perpetua is currently stated to have created the DC multiverse in the Overvoid?

 

[Hykuu]

How does this affect the composite God profile we were going to make?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How does this fit with that Perpetua is currently stated to have created the DC multiverse in the Overvoid?

The DC Multiverse is only one of infinite number of Multiverses that make up the "Omniverse", all of which are contained and sustained by the energy of the Source beyond.

@Hykuu

Presence and Source ought to be merged. That is all.

 

[Kepekley23]

Am currently on the phone, so I will only start making in deph rebutls once I get to my laptop.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Also, how can something be told through "subtle srorytelling" and simultaneously still be the most obvious thing ever? Sounds more like there is simply no evidence to begin with..."

Because what is above the white page? What would utilize the white page as a tool and "draw" something on it against its will? What would drop ink onto the white page and in doing so "birth" DC Comics?

Why, we are talking about the writer of the story.

 

[Hykuu]

@Matthew wasn't it agreed that the Presence was the Void aswell? Only in Grant's work by the way, not a change to the profile as a whole.

 

[Kepekley23]

All of those questions are made assuming your interpretation of Morrison's interview is true, so.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

All of those questions are made assuming your interpretation of Morrison's interview is true, so.

And all of your "rebuttals" are made assuming your interpretation is right.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matthew wasn't it agreed that the Presence was the Void aswell? Only in Grant's work by the way, not a change to the profile as a whole.

The Void is "God" in a sense too. I suppose we could make a three key profile for "God" in DC. But eh.

 

[Hykuu]

Yes, I think it's worth doing that.

 

[ByAsura]

Couldn't the quotations around "drawn" also imply the action performed is too complex to be understood in human terms, so Morrison likens it to drawing?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Presence | The Source | Monitor-Mind The Overvoid

Pretty much how it'd be.

 

[Kepekley23]

The existence of lower meta writers and meta analogies to authors in no way justifies or points to a supreme writer, unless the Monitors are above the void now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The existence of lower meta writers and meta analogies to authors in no way justifies or points to a supreme writer, unless the Monitors are above the void now.

This argument bears no correlations whatsoever. The Monitors aren't the literal writer of the comic. They are more like editors anyway.

 

[Kepekley23]

And all of your "rebuttals" are made assuming your interpretation is right.

See, that isnt true. My rebuttals arent loaded answers. They are not fallacious, since i am not assuming anything unproven has been proven before making them.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Couldn't the quotations around "drawn" also imply the action performed is too complex to be understood in human terms, so Morrison likens it to drawing?

Absolutely. It is a metaphor, after all. But the notion that the Overvoid drew on itself is ridiculous.

 

[Kepekley23]

The analogy is super straightforward and is no different than any other void story, lol. Everything came from the void, including the entities that created those things. The void was unaware of that up until then. THAT is the ink Morrison talks about, as far aa I see it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it's not, my dude. The Void is literally the white page. Creation was born from it because the Void is the canvas from which all can emerge but something else made DC specifically emerge from it and not something else.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

See, that isnt true. My rebuttals arent loaded answers. They are not fallacious, since i am not assuming anything unproven has been proven before making them.

Mine aren't either. No need to insult me or strawman my arguments either, as you are fond of doing. And you are literally assuming a correct interpretation for the Overvoid story so lol.

 

[Kepekley23]

Okay. Proof of exactly that being stated in the actual comics. Random writer characters who are never treated as avatars of such a supreme entity don't count.

 

[Antvasima]

The DC Multiverse is only one of infinite number of Multiverses that make up the "Omniverse", all of which are contained and sustained by the energy of the Source beyond.
But in Morrison's story it seemed to be the DC Multiverse specifically that caused the Overvoid to get upset, and it was recently revealed that Perpetua created it in a social-Darwinist manner that the Source found distasteful. Is the latter not a deliberate expansion of the former, as a possible retcon of any metafiction?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay. Proof of exactly that being stated in the actual comics
Random writer characters who are never treated as avatars of such a supreme entity don't count.

Prove what you are suggesting is stated.

And that's a loaded question. Absolutely Grant Morrison in Animal Man is not treated as the absolute writer, but rather a fictional depiction of one single writer. It's merely the story where the concept is conveyed the most directly, by Grant Morrison himself who would later incorporate the ideas of Animal Man into wider DC through Final Crisis.

The Overvoid is the page. The writer of the comicbook uses the page as the vehicle to draw and tell their story. That's all there is to it. I still cannot understand how you struggle with this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But in Morrison's story it seemed to be the DC Multiverse specifically that caused the Overvoid to get upset, and it was recently revealed that Perpetua created it in a social-Darwinist manner that the Source found distasteful. Is the latter not a deliberate expansion of the former, as a possible retcon of any metafiction?

The Monitor-Mind was disatisfied with the creation of DC Comics as a whole. The "DC Universe". Not one single multiverse created by Perpetua. The story of the Overvoid is told in broad strokes.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I really think we should wait and put any big arguments on hold until Kep writes his post, instead of bloating the thread with parallel conversations.