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i dont think its about containing lesser dimensions
if you are beyond dimensions and are unaffected by space being added or removed, where any amount of space can be inserted then maybe thats how the 1-A part works
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The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3
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if you are beyond dimensions and are unaffected by space being added or removed, where any amount of space can be inserted then maybe thats how the 1-A part works
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It see it leaving in the future or atleast gets more modified cause currently it's nonsense to me.
Even lower tiers can qualify not necessary for it to be 1-A, even 1-B can.
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Is it about this part
?
If so, what is the suggested change?
To be clear: The tiering system FAQ specifies that it requires evidence that "any amount" of dimensions can be added. Or, at least that's what it is supposed to be interpreted as, as far as I am concerned.
That, in other words, means you need evidence that up to infinite dimensions could be added and the character would still be superior. Basically: If you have no infinite hierarchy, you can still get 1-A if you proof that your character could be above an infinite hierarchy if there were one.
LuciferX
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It does lol. It's the reason why some fodder verses got high ratings. Anyone with common sense can understand it's literary NLF.
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dont complain about fodder verses getting high ratings
if you want to change that then go make a crt about it
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I don't want to assume the void can fit infinite dimensions, since that would reach NLF territory
it possibly can tho since no matter how large creations you have, a portion of the void would amount that to 0 and a portion of the void is infinite
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Unless it is actually specified that this behaviour specifically also applies to infinite dimensions, you are right that this sounds like the NLF territory.
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would the void having an infinite layered axis and adding/removing space without the void being affected count??
LuciferX
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Eh I said that's the reason for all of that. There is nothing there to change there if it never existed in FAQ.
It doesn't have infinite layered axis, just time axis acts differently from there, those layers which was shown in that panel are past/future/present events that looks like layers from there.
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It says in the same scan that all things are layered endlessly there, not just past future present events. We know all those references about infinite repetition is no joke since the portion of the void is infinite and eternal, amounting all creations to 0. The void is also stated to be beyond creation with endless creations rising and falling
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LuciferX
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All things are those past present events. You just only focus on a single statement without understanding what it really meant in the context.
That's 2-A.
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it can be opened back now
LuciferX
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Wasn't it refute in Animal Man Cosmology Determination thread?
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It was redundant to the part 2 thread, where he was asked to post his arguments instead.
The details of each cosmology have already been approved. He will have to wait until the project has concluded to attempt to revise it.
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I don't know what that is supposed to mean.
No. Not if it's just small spaces. (Small by 1-A standards, I mean)
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I have a question.
As one ascends the hierarchy of deeper dreams, each dream is supposed to bring them closer to the divine dreamer or the infinite self one has always been. And as you said, creation is being believed into existence by humanity from the Collective Unconscious. So wouldn’t that make this infinite hierarchy lead to the Collective Unconscious, since that’s where the divine dreamer/infinite self would be located? If so then the Divine Presence and the Collective Unconscious shouldn’t be low 1-A but high 1-B, as they technically wouldn’t transcend the infinite layers of truer dreams. Only the Void should be low 1-A, and the Smile can possibly remain 1-A.
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Nearly everything within that post is wrong, so it is a moot point. The Smile is directly identified as God multiple times, humans do not dream creation, nor the Presence, and the post takes several statements from arrogant villains and fashions them as absolute facts, which is obviously fallacious. And there's no infinity hierarchy of dreams in any manner that is relevant to tiering.
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So if the infinite hierarchy of dream in DeMatteis's cosmology is wrong as you said, how we should tier this cosmology as a whole?
The multiverse is 2-A for having infinite parallel dimensions whose individual people's decision creates new universes. Heaven and Hell are states of minds and are "places that are not places, that transcend place" and have "days that are not days, that transcend day." And the Collective Unconscious exists on a level beyond space and time.
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Frankly, it's extremely sus for an account that had 14 posts prior to this thread to come in and try and make such sweeping changes on such poor premises, so I don't think it's particularly prudent to engage with it. The DeMatteis cosmology in the blog is sound, and your own scans are contradicting your conclusions or purely conjecture at best.
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Yeah I know that but what about the totality of creation that is currently High 1-B?
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New users need to actually comment something first on thread you know. That's how you get post cound.
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I am aware, but:
As before, participation in this thread will be limited to staff, project members, and regular members who are knowledgeable about the verse, if they contact a member of our staff for permission.
This isn't a thread for newcomers to try and impose a whole new cosmology. Besides that his post is largely aimed at re-defining the details of the DeMatteis cosmology, not simply tiering the accepted information, which is off-topic.
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I know the Smile is called “God, but it’s distinguished from God who’s opposite to the devil. Meaning “God” in that context can’t be referring to “God” as in the Divine Presence. And currently I can’t find a scan of the Smile/God being referred to as the “Divine Presence” which is what Dreamcaster was arguing.
Currently on the blog, there’s a scan of Hal Jordan talking about how humanity is all a part of Gods imagination while simultaneously everyone is also God in disguise.
Also this isn’t the place for restructuring the cosmology so I don’t know why you’re trying to start an argument over whether a hierarchy exist in Dematteis cosmology.
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This is a non-sequitur assumption, not anything that's actually indicated by the scans themselves.
And yet, the post you are responding to does exactly that. So we should drop it then? Great.
I'm not. I said a hierarchy of dreams. Why did you leave out that word to misrepresent what my post said?
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How is what I said an assumption? The scan directly says the Smile is beyond “God and Devil” but is “a place, a God beyond opposites.”
Not entirely. The main goal was to propose new tiers for the structures and beings which is what this is all about.
Isn’t that what the hierarchy is? On the blog this scan is used as part of the justification for the hierarchy.
“Call it a deeper dream. A truer dream. But there are more dreams still beyond it.”
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Okay, and why does that preclude the Divine Presence? Why are we assuming he isn't the God beyond opposites?
No, we don't use the word "dream" to describe the hierarchy. That piece of evidence is just one of many, and the dream part of it shouldn't be taken literally.
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Because the Divine Presence is God who exists in Heaven opposite to the devil who exists in hell. And the Smile is beyond “God and Devil.”
Lol what a pointless topic. I don’t care whether you use the word “dream” to describe it or not, I’m still referring to the hierarchy that exist in Dematteis cosmology.
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Do you have evidence of any of that? I recall the Presence in DeMatteis' stories explicitly rejecting the idea that he was in Heaven.
"I am the Presence. I am everywhere. Even within your own corrupted heart."
So he's certainly in Hell, too. I also don't know of any devil in DeMatteis being described as an "opposite" of the Presence. Only Lucifer has been described that way, but not in DeMatteis.
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No, it can't. He was responding to someone saying he was inside an amulet. It was clearly and obviously referring to his location.
Saying "that isn't an actual counter" actually isn't a counter. They are arrogant villains, we don't take them underestimating their enemies at face value.
The Presence is distinct from everyone in creation. I am not denying that a devil exists. That's not the premise of the discussion.
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Because it's based on an absurd and faulty premise that him responding to a remark about where he was located and saying "I am everywhere" is about something other than his location.
Prove they aren't. We don't take statements from villains at face value. I do not need to prove him wrong. He has an inherent lack of credibility given the context of the conversation that you have failed to overcome.
This is nonsensical. The Presence also isn't Zauriel, are the Presence and Zauriel opposites? Are the Presence and the Phantom Stranger opposites?
The Presence has a distinct identity, that doesn't make him anyone's opposite.
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I already referenced it several times.
That's not what an opposite is.
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No, I don't. You have to prove they're being accurate.
No. "Good" and "cold" are not opposites.
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i think dreamcaster is talking about the actual letter A
not substitution
not substitution
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His argument is that being different is the same as being "opposites" which is pretty ridiculous.
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oh i just saw that...
thats crazy
thats crazy
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Going off the scans Dr3amcaster posted. The Divine Presence is God as in the heavenly God. So we cannot associate him with the Smile, as the Smile is beyond the God of Heaven who is opposite to the devil. Plus there’s a bunch of other contradictions that would come with asserting the Divine Presence as the Smile, like him being unable to fully destroy Blight.
So I think the tiering should go like this.
Creation: High 1-B (Already explained in the blog)
Divine Presence: High 1-B (For being the infinite self/Divine Dreamer at the top of the hierarchy).
Collective Unconscious: High 1-B (For containing the divine dreamer/infinite self and birthing creation.)
Void: Low 1-A (For being the sea of nothingness from which all things emerge and must return)
The Smile: 1-A (For transcending the Void and defining the entire cosmology).
Also are the Trans from Dematteis collective unconscious story qualified for profiles? If so they would probably exist in the Collective Unconscious as well.
So I think the tiering should go like this.
Creation: High 1-B (Already explained in the blog)
Divine Presence: High 1-B (For being the infinite self/Divine Dreamer at the top of the hierarchy).
Collective Unconscious: High 1-B (For containing the divine dreamer/infinite self and birthing creation.)
Void: Low 1-A (For being the sea of nothingness from which all things emerge and must return)
The Smile: 1-A (For transcending the Void and defining the entire cosmology).
Also are the Trans from Dematteis collective unconscious story qualified for profiles? If so they would probably exist in the Collective Unconscious as well.
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no they have too few apperances in comics to qualify for a profile
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This is a series of assumptions. The Divine Presence isn't of Heaven, he's omnipresent. He's not the "opposite of the Devil." There's no evidence he can't destroy blight aside from Blight's unproven assumptions. Stranger seems to think otherwise, regardless.
However, this fact was already agreed upon in the last thread.
LuciferX
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It should be change into Tier 2A.
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