Marvel Comics Cosmology (World Hierarchy) Revision

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This was a long time coming and because of that I decided to move quickly with the changes. So, previously, established in this thread:

J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)

As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their...

vsbattles.com

So the main jist is to remove scans pertaining to the author “J.M. DeMatteis” and his more personal view of the Cosmology.

Changes and Removal:​

The changes will be a bit radical but then again it's all fair and game. Subspace will keep its tiering as High 1-B. All dimensionality higher will be High 1-B+. That's where we get to the Abstracts.

Abstract:​

In virtue of all the above, Eternity and other Abstracts of a similar degree are 1-A in their anthropomorphic manifestations, and their real selves, of which these manifestations are infinitesimal aspects, are in turn 1 layerinto 1-A.

Since a recent revision pivots the Astral Plane as 1-A, it will remain 1-A. Meaning the Abstarct Universal True Forms remains a layer above baseline.

Omniverse:​

The changes to the Omniverse will adhere to just staying 1-A since we will not be using the dreams within dreams where reality is not real to the higher realms. Although, there's some interesting keys to it, the best for the Omniverse at the higher end is 1-A+. Which all the differences within worlds are in the same hierarchy and not a different one. So, the Multiversal/Omniversal form of the Abstracts will be reduced to 1-A.

The Outside:​

The Outside realms will all be reduced 1-A. However, the main difference is that each higher realms does not share the same relation of transcendence in the new wiki. So, the Far Shore, and the Beyond will just remain three layer. The White Hot Room, Couldn’t-Be-Shouldn’t-Be/Could-Be-Shall-Be, and the House of Idea will be an additional layer. The only realm and character to get High 1-A will be the One Above All and the House of Ideas.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This thread will also serve as for the time being, a cosmological group chat. Thus, any changes will be appreciated and show some scans for any additional changes since this is primarily going over what has been posted on Ultima sandbox. So any additional information will be taken into account.

 

[Eseseso]

This was a long time coming and because of that I decided to move quickly with the changes. So, previously, established in this thread:

J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)

As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their...

vsbattles.com

So the main jist is to remove scans pertaining to the author “J.M. DeMatteis” and his more personal view of the Cosmology.

Changes and Removal:​

The changes will be a bit radical but then again it's all fair and game. Subspace will keep its tiering as High 1-B. All dimensionality higher will be High 1-B+. That's where we get to the Abstracts.

​

Not sure which realms qualify as of rn for High 1-B+ (though I am working on a thread that will include bumping some realms up to High 1-B+), but looks fine.

Omniverse:​

The changes to the Omniverse will adhere to just staying 1-A since we will not be using the dreams within dreams where reality is not real to the higher realms. Although, there's some interesting keys to it, the best for the Omniverse at the higher end is 1-A+. Which all the differences within worlds are in the same hierarchy and not a different one. So, the Multiversal/Omniversal form of the Abstracts will be reduced to 1-A.

So which ones will be 1-A+?

The Outside:​

The Outside realms will all remain High 1-A. However, the main difference is that each higher realms does not share the same relation of transcendence in the new wiki. So, the Far Shore, and the Beyond will just remain baseline. The White Hot Room, Couldn’t-Be-Shouldn’t-Be/Could-Be-Shall-Be, and the House of Idea will be an additional layer. Though, I'm not really seeing this as a hierarchy of differences outside of being beyond the House of Ideas in a new hierarchy in the Outside which each of the hierarchy in the Four Worlds should share one additional layer into High 1-A while the entire Mystery itself is infinite layers.

Looks fine but I'm not a High 1-A expert.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So which ones will be 1-A+?

I don't even think there's really anything for a qualitative hierarchy. To appease some people I just randomly said there could be a 1-A+ hierarchy at the higher end.

Looks fine but I'm not a High 1-A expert.

I'm a bit iffy on this one because of my previous comment on a 1-A+ hierarchy, High 1-A is possible, but I could be seeing that wrong where this section should just be 1-A as well. However, I’ll keep it like this. Seems abit wrong if Marvel doesn't have some High 1-A remaining. At the very least, the One Above All should still be High 1-A regardless of anything.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Pretty sure Ultima was confident Marvel would still be High 1-A regardless of the removal of DeMatteis' stuff so we'll see what happens down the line. But as of now , I agree with this. Without DeMatteis, the evidence for 1-A+/High 1-A becomes a bit lacking unless some obscurely ridiculous cosmology shenanigans escaped my notice, which it very well may have considering how huge Marvel Comics is.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Pretty sure Ultima was confident Marvel would still be High 1-A regardless of the removal of DeMatteis' stuff so we'll see what happens down the line. But as of now , I agree with this. Without DeMatteis, the evidence for 1-A+/High 1-A becomes a bit lacking unless some obscurely ridiculous cosmology shenanigans escaped my notice, which it very well may have considering how huge Marvel Comics is.

Yeah, I'm open to those few things we miss, and hopefully some people got some scans to fill in for those tiers.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I am as well, but only time will tell if it'll be successful.

In the meanwhile, Let me go ahead and check with Alonik's old cosmology blog off site to see if there's anything on there that may help. They did a lot of research so if anyone has evidence for High 1-A it'd likely be them.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The One Above All being High 1-A is clear and cut. Seeing all levels of his Creation and duality as mere fictional properties extended from his divine energy. Which kind of puts it into question beings like the Mother of Horrors not made by his demiurgic fires and how she would scale.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @Deagonx @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca

We seem to need your input help here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Bump.

 

[Eseseso]

I do hope Ultima comments but I don't think it'd be worth waiting 6 months for him.

And just to be clear, the multiverse versions.of the abstracts would go from High 1-A to 2 layers into 1-A?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I do hope Ultima comments but I don't think it'd be worth waiting 6 months for him.

And just to be clear, the multiverse versions.of the abstracts would go from High 1-A to 2 layers into 1-A?

Yeah, they get an extra layer. As for Ultima, we can never know when he comes, if at all.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Will there be a Tier 0 for The Divine Creator from DeMatteis' Swamp Thing run? Similarly to J.M DeMatteis' version of The Presence under his cosmology?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Will there be a Tier 0 for The Divine Creator from DeMatteis' Swamp Thing run? Similarly to J.M DeMatteis' version of The Presence under his cosmology?

“Swamp Thing.” Yeah, that's coming.

 

[Antvasima]

@CrimsonStarFallen @LordTracer @Eficiente @Elizhaa @FinePoint @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @Maverick_Zero_X @Starter_Pack @Firestorm808 @Catzlaflame

We need more input help here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll wait for more input

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @Deagonx

Your help would also be very appreciated here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Let’s not take forever for this thread to get going. Since the previous thread made for this thread to be possible took over five months.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

From what i found so far that may change somethings:

So uh, it seems Marvel does have a 'worlds within worlds' statement as stated by Uatu. So that may change somethings. I'll continue looking for more stuff, hopefully finding some R>F that isn't relying on a certain X-Man Infinite Spiral comic.

The Negative Zone should straight up be higher than High 1-B and just Low 1-A because it is stated that it is the very concept of dimensionality itself by Dr.Doom and that controlling the Negative Zone meant you controlled All of Creation (which is huge considering it's relationship with 616). This would obviously affect Hyperstorm directly as well as those who scale to the Main Universe before the full extent of the timeline (which is now 1-A). Also, the Cosmic Control Rod grants one supreme control over all of the Negative Zone.

I'll continue digging for more info

 

[Eseseso]

From what i found so far that may change somethings:

So uh, it seems Marvel does have a 'worlds within worlds' statement as stated by Uatu. So that may change somethings. I'll continue looking for more stuff, hopefully finding some R>F that isn't relying on a certain X-Man Infinite Spiral comic.

The Negative Zone should straight up be higher than High 1-B and just Low 1-A because it is stated that it is the very concept of dimensionality itself by Dr.Doom and that controlling the Negative Zone meant you controlled All of Creation (which is huge considering it's relationship with 616). This would obviously affect Hyperstorm directly as well as those who scale to the Main Universe before the full extent of the timeline (which is now 1-A). Also, the Cosmic Control Rod grants one supreme control over all of the Negative Zone.

I'll continue digging for more info

So everyone who is High 1-B could become Low 1-A (since the negative Zone is IIRC still in Earth 616)?

Interesting.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

From what i found so far that may change somethings:

So uh, it seems Marvel does have a 'worlds within worlds' statement as stated by Uatu. So that may change somethings. I'll continue looking for more stuff, hopefully finding some R>F that isn't relying on a certain X-Man Infinite Spiral comic.

The Negative Zone should straight up be higher than High 1-B and just Low 1-A because it is stated that it is the very concept of dimensionality itself by Dr.Doom and that controlling the Negative Zone meant you controlled All of Creation (which is huge considering it's relationship with 616). This would obviously affect Hyperstorm directly as well as those who scale to the Main Universe before the full extent of the timeline (which is now 1-A). Also, the Cosmic Control Rod grants one supreme control over all of the Negative Zone.

I'll continue digging for more info

The very concept of dimensionality would still be more or less High 1-B+. That accounts for any/all sets for dimensions. Low 1-A purely is structure that contains sets or embodies the space from which any amount of set can be produced, in that it also beyond dimensionality only limited by the fact its transcendence is not qualitative, but not restricted to quantitative measure.

 

[SweetDao]

So, the Multiversal/Omniversal form of the Abstracts will be reduced to 1-A.

I was informed of this thread not too long ago, and may I ask why the Omniversal Form of Eternity wouldn't still qualify for High 1-A when his real is beyond all level of realities/dreams, space and time etc? I mean, obviously we're not using the dream within dream statement but that should still warrant a higher level?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I was informed of this thread not too long ago, and may I ask why the Omniversal Form of Eternity wouldn't still qualify for High 1-A when his real is beyond all level of realities/dreams, space and time etc? I mean, obviously we're not using the dream within dream statement but that should still warrant a higher level?

Being beyond space and time is 1-A. Having space/time on each level is not coherent and disqualifies the notion of a 1-A hierarchy.

Also, these levels of realities would need to evoke some sort of conceptual transcendence or R>F, which would help with their existence being ontological superior to the previous layer. I mean, if you have any scan that helps with this then that would be great, if not there’s nothing here that suggest High 1-A.

 

[SweetDao]

Having space/time on each level is not coherent and disqualifies the notion of a 1-A hierarchy.

1-A layers can have their own notion of space and time tho.

Also, these levels of realities would need to evoke some sort of conceptual transcendence or R>F

I suppose those qualitative transcendences came from the dream within dream scan that is no longer used, right?

I mean, if you have any scan that helps with this then that would be great, if not there’s nothing here that suggest High 1-A.

I'm not too knowledgeable about Marvel, but I do have a 100+ pages doc about its cosmology and stuff, I doubt it's something that you're not aware about tho (or if it can even be used since I don't know how the cosmology split exactly work, barely read more than 20 comics in my life)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

1-A layers can have their own notion of space and time tho.

In that there’s some sort of things that’s a concept specific to each layer, yes. Typically, there not so much so space nor time because usually these realms are either spaceless or timeless, or both. However, it’s not really “space or time” in that, so if we were to get specific about statements like space beyond space, it’s not “space” it’s just a notion of something that’s beyond it. So, my statement still stands firm, the notion of space and time in their layer isn’t space or time.

I suppose those qualitative transcendences came from the dream within dream scan that is no longer used, right?

Yeah, those were very much the ground basis for an R>F hierarchy. We do have to consider that the blog was made prior to the changes in the tiering system.

I'm not too knowledgeable about Marvel, but I do have a 100+ pages doc about its cosmology and stuff, I doubt it's something that you're not aware about tho (or if it can even be used since I don't know how the cosmology split exactly work, barely read more than 20 comics in my life)

If you can find some goods scan or even one’s we overlook. I can look over it again and consider it.

 

[SweetDao]

If you can find some goods scan or even one’s we overlook. I can look over it again and consider it.

I have some scans I'll put in the next comment, though please be kind because I'm not too knowledgeable about the cosmology split or anything Marvel related, frankly. (I'll state from which comics the scans comes, tho, so don't worry.)

 

[SweetDao]

Everything is narrative. (Marvel Comics 2019 #1001)
World within worlds, every man's mind is a universe. (Giant Size Man-Thing #4)
The world itself is a product of imagination, reality and ideas are one and the same (Adventure Into Fear #19)
The Soul Stone exists in a higher reality that encompasses a multiverse (Secret Warps #3)
The whole universe is just a dream of God. Every existence and thing is just a fantasy of the gods while they are asleep (Heroes Reborn: The Return #4)
The dreams of the gods and perhaps the gods themselves are just eternal fantasies, maybe we all are (Heroes Reborn: The Return #4)

That's about it regarding stuff that might be relevant. I hope some of them are usable, but if not that's fine.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Everything is narrative. (Marvel Comics 2019 #1001)
World within worlds, every man's mind is a universe. (Giant Size Man-Thing #4)
The world itself is a product of imagination, reality and ideas are one and the same (Adventure Into Fear #19)
The Soul Stone exists in a higher reality that encompasses a multiverse (Secret Warps #3)
The whole universe is just a dream of God. Every existence and thing is just a fantasy of the gods while they are asleep (Heroes Reborn: The Return #4)
The dreams of the gods and perhaps the gods themselves are just eternal fantasies, maybe we all are (Heroes Reborn: The Return #4)

That's about it regarding stuff that might be relevant. I hope some of them are usable, but if not that's fine.

The first few one’s aren’t too relevant. Al Ewing metaphor in Immortal Thor describing reality as narrative like shadows on a cave being a reference to Plato is interesting, but we never get anything further with it. This applies to Adventure into Fear, it lacks anymore context to how it could be applied.

Now the last two I obviously seen a lot. It’s a strong case on its own, but it’s severely overshadowed. There are cases where they do say the universe is a dream within human’s mind, but, they really don’t expand too hard into that where we would use it as a focal point for a R>F hierarchy. Either way, that wouldn’t establish High 1-A since I mention 1-A+ was possible, but, probably not plausible.

Yeah, I think the suggestion I’ve made so far sticks.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that VeryGoofyToddler seems to make sense here, but I am not the best person to ask.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Being beyond space and time is 1-A.

Since when? Isn't that only 1-A when it's on a qualitative level?

Having space/time on each level is not coherent and disqualifies the notion of a 1-A hierarchy.

Why? KR's cosmology's "real world" clearly has it's own definition of time and space. Qualitative superior time and spaces can very much exist, they are just inherently superior over qualitatively inferior times and spaces. All spaces in fiction have some sort of time axis degree as people are capable of moving and talking within it in a quantifiable timeframe, regardless of if they're floating in a 1-A space or no. Marvel's cosmology having qualitatively superior realms with higher space-times would not be any more of a contradiction than the stuff we've just accepted for Kamen Rider.

Yeah, those were very much the ground basis for an R>F hierarchy. We do have to consider that the blog was made prior to the changes in the tiering system.

That doesn't inherently mean they don't prove a R>F hierarchy of worlds. "Dreams folded within dreams" seems like a very explicitly 1-A hierarchy under our new tiering system. I don't really understand why we can't use them, and I currently don't have time to read over the blog. Is it something related to a cosmology split, similar to what recently happened with DC?

 

[SweetDao]

Is it something related to a cosmology split, similar to what recently happened with DC?

Yes, they don't use it for the "main" cosmology iirc. The statement itself is valid tho.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Since when? Isn't that only 1-A when it's on a qualitative level?

Obviously.

Why? KR's cosmology's "real world" clearly has it's own definition of time and space. Qualitative superior time and spaces can very much exist, they are just inherently superior over qualitatively inferior times and spaces. All spaces in fiction have some sort of time axis degree as people are capable of moving and talking within it in a quantifiable timeframe, regardless of if they're floating in a 1-A space or no. Marvel's cosmology having qualitatively superior realms with higher space-times would not be any more of a contradiction than the stuff we've just accepted for Kamen Rider.

I've explained this. You summarized what I said, though, in fair defense I was just being very specific and overexpalning it as seen in the response above.

That doesn't inherently mean they don't prove a R>F hierarchy of worlds. "Dreams folded within dreams" seems like a very explicitly 1-A hierarchy under our new tiering system. I don't really understand why we can't use them, and I currently don't have time to read over the blog. Is it something related to a cosmology split, similar to what recently happened with DC?

Yeah, and now it belongs to a separate split Cosmology. We’re trying to see if there's anything for the main Cosmology to revamp the tiers back to normal. Which so far doesn't seem to be the case, at least not with the current information.

 

[Eseseso]

The very concept of dimensionality would still be more or less High 1-B+. That accounts for any/all sets for dimensions. Low 1-A purely is structure that contains sets or embodies the space from which any amount of set can be produced, in that it also beyond dimensionality only limited by the fact its transcendence is not qualitative, but not restricted to quantitative measure.

So do you agree with bumping all the High 1-B people to High 1-B+ because of the Negative Zone stuff?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So do you agree with bumping all the High 1-B people to High 1-B+ because of the Negative Zone stuff?

Yeah, sure.

 

[Deonment]

I'm just going to come in to bring up this statement (which is directly on Ultima's blog Btw) from Ultimates² #7, May 2017

Existence is a fractal. "As Above, So Below." Therefore, just as a single DNA strand of a person contains a map of the whole person, so too do individual universes reflect a larger whole

Which, in addition to the rest of the statements regarding worlds within worlds and the general statements in the omniverse section of the blog (in particular from the same section I got the above scan), can lead to the conclusion that just as how Universal Eternity holds within himself infinite greater and greater degrees of reality each transcendent of the last, so woykd Multiversal Eternity, of which Universal Eternity exists as or within a degree of this hierarchy, and thus considering all the statements, would give a much more solid reasoning for 1-A+, and from which you can easily argue the Superflow and Neutral Zone to be High 1-A, thus keeping all the ratings (currently) the same

But even without this why wouldn't Multiversal Abstracts be High 1-A? Considering how they are the most fundamental concepts of the multiverse which underline and act as the basis of existence all the way down from a single human to the highest extents of the (theoretical) 1-A+ hierarchy?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm just going to come in to bring up this statement (which is directly on Ultima's blog Btw) from Ultimates² #7, May 2017

Which, in addition to the rest of the statements regarding worlds within worlds and the general statements in the omniverse section of the blog (in particular from the same section I got the above scan), can lead to the conclusion that just as how Universal Eternity holds within himself infinite greater and greater degrees of reality each transcendent of the last, so woykd Multiversal Eternity, of which Universal Eternity exists as or within a degree of this hierarchy, and thus considering all the statements, would give a much more solid reasoning for 1-A+, and from which you can easily argue the Superflow and Neutral Zone to be High 1-A, thus keeping all the ratings (currently) the same

World within worlds statement holds little merit for any tier. Although, you're scan is broken, I do know what you're referring to. Each level would have to have some sort of qualitative properties which so far is what’s the lacking context. So no, Superflow and Neutral Zone won't be High 1-A.

But even without this why wouldn't Multiversal Abstracts be High 1-A? Considering how they are the most fundamental concepts of the multiverse which underline and act as the basis of existence all the way down from a single human to the highest extents of the (theoretical) 1-A+ hierarchy?

We would first have to prove 1-A+. Even then they're part of the same hierarchy and their transcendence is not align of some sort of higher form of qualitative transcendence ie meta-qualitative transcendence which is needed for High 1-A. If they contain the entire hierarchy then they, themselves, would be 1-A+.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I'm just going to come in to bring up this statement (which is directly on Ultima's blog Btw) from Ultimates² #7, May 2017

Which, in addition to the rest of the statements regarding worlds within worlds and the general statements in the omniverse section of the blog (in particular from the same section I got the above scan), can lead to the conclusion that just as how Universal Eternity holds within himself infinite greater and greater degrees of reality each transcendent of the last, so woykd Multiversal Eternity, of which Universal Eternity exists as or within a degree of this hierarchy, and thus considering all the statements, would give a much more solid reasoning for 1-A+, and from which you can easily argue the Superflow and Neutral Zone to be High 1-A, thus keeping all the ratings (currently) the same

But even without this why wouldn't Multiversal Abstracts be High 1-A? Considering how they are the most fundamental concepts of the multiverse which underline and act as the basis of existence all the way down from a single human to the highest extents of the (theoretical) 1-A+ hierarchy?

image not working here is the fixed one

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

image not working here is the fixed one

The one is also broken.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

The one is also broken.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/ec/OmniversalEternity5.jpg

Is it working now?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Its certainly very blurry. However, as I said previously. I don't think this adds anything.