The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

[Robo432343]

Also I thought the cosmology were split cause of inconsistencies, why are they merged?

most of them are split

 

[Deagonx]

Also I thought the cosmology were split cause of inconsistencies, why are they merged?

Morrison and Snyder were merged based on Ultima's suggestion.

 

[Xearsay]

By repeatedly claiming that a counter example to poor logic is "whataboutism" despite the fact that demonstrating a counter example is precisely how one demonstrates that an argument is invalid. You cannot escape the counter example by repeating yourself.

You didn’t raise a counter example though. As I said you raised a counter question about my beliefs on the Monitor Sphere in attempt to undermine and divert the topic away from my statement about the Silver City, which is whataboutism.

Deagonx - “So you no longer believe the Monitor Sphere is a higher level than Limbo or the Multiverse?”

So you claim, but in reality each piece of evidence combines in aggregate to make a compelling argument. The fact that any single piece of information can't by itself prove superiority isn't really problematic at all. No one is saying that in the first place.

Sometimes it can, however that’s not always the case as evidence given can sometimes not support the conclusion, like in your case where each description didn’t combine to support your conclusion for a hierarchy of qualitative superiority.

Well clearly many people disagree, so we'll see what the mods say

Many = Robo, but sure I’ll wait for the staff.

 

[Robo432343]

Many = You and Robo, but sure I’ll wait for the staff.

not just me and deagon but ok

 

[Deagonx]

You didn’t raise a counter example though. As I said you raised a counter question

....which provided a counter example. So this whole neverending spiel was the fact that it was phrased as a rhetorical question rather than a direct statement? What a fantastic waste of text.

like in your case where each description didn’t combine to support your conclusion for a hierarchy of qualitative superiority

That's your opinion, but sure.

Many = You and Robo, but sure I’ll wait for the staff.

I'm not even the one that wrote it.

 

[Vasco]

Morrison and Snyder were merged based on Ultima's suggestion.

Okay, last when i was in that thread i thought it was rejected.

 

[Xearsay]

....which provided a counter example. So this whole neverending spiel was the fact that it was phrased as a rhetorical question rather than a direct statement? What a fantastic waste of text.

No, because even if you worded it as a direct statement it would still be whataboutism. As you’d still be avoiding addressing the issues with the Silver City by changing the subject to my beliefs on the Monitor Sphere.

That's your opinion, but sure.

If that’s what you want to believe go ahead.

 

[Deagonx]

No, because even if you worded it as a direct statement it would still be whataboutism. As you’d still be avoiding addressing the issues with the Silver City by changing the subject to my beliefs on the Monitor Sphere.

Yes, that's how counter examples work. By referring to different things and showing how the logic fails.

If that’s what you want to believe go ahead.

Yes, that's how opinions work.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, last when i was in that thread i thought it was rejected.

No, Ultimas argument for merging them was accepted.

 

[Robo432343]

Anyway
already 3-4 staff already agree with what has been proposed
there was no point of me arguing in circles with xear.

 

[Gasper]

I agree with xearsey.
Nothing here is even close to 1-A.
Seeing something as infinitly small is just one layer into 1-B in this case.

 

[Robo432343]

I agree with xearsey.
Nothing here is even close to 1-A.
Seeing something as infinitly small is just one layer into 1-B in this case.

what. where are you getting 1-B from?

 

[Gasper]

what. where are you getting 1-B from?

Sorry, Multiverse is 1-C, right? That would make infinitely higher realm 1-B or maybe just High 1-C.

 

[Vasco]

No, Ultimas argument for merging them was accepted.

Okay.

 

[Robo432343]

Sorry, Multiverse is 1-C, right? That would make infinitely higher realm 1-B or maybe just High 1-C.

my brother....what are you talking about
Heaven viewing a 2-A structure as infinitely small is Low 1-C in VERTIGO
i think you're talking about something else here, grants cosmology??

 

[Gasper]

my brother....what are you talking about
Heaven viewing a 2-A structure as infinitely small is Low 1-C in VERTIGO
i think you're talking about something else here, grants cosmology??

I am talking about the void being 1-A has no justification being that high.

It says you don’t need an infinitely layered/dimensioned hierarchy. That doesn’t mean no dimensioned or layered hierarchy.


Which isn’t 1-A. Any amount of 2-A structures being able to inserted into the Void, and still amounting to 0 is low 1-C, not 1-A. And even if Heaven was low 1-C(which it isn’t) any amount of low 1-C structures being able to be inserted into the Void, and still amounting to 0 would be just another level of infinity up, not 1-A.



It is a big difference. You said creation is small glitters of light when the scan says creation is covered in small glitters of light. And seeing a structure as covered in glitters of light means nothing tiering wise.

Looking down on a 2-A structure alone doesn’t warrant low 1-C.

This

 

[Robo432343]

I am talking about the void being 1-A has no justification being that high.

This

That has already been addressed. I don't want to keep going in circle arguments.

 

[Gasper]

That has already been addressed. I don't want to keep going in circle arguments.

How can you be 1-A by seeing 1-C realm as infinitlysmall?

 

[Robo432343]

How can you be 1-A by seeing 1-C realm as infinitlysmall?

First i'll show you why Heaven/Hell>2-A creation
-The Universe is described as far below the Silver city. The universe is compared to as like a childs toy compared to the city. Galaxies are merely treated as 'jewels'. Silver City looks down upon creation.
- Heaven see's the IMMENSITY of creation as as a blur and spangled. Heaven sees creation as covered with just small sparking objects of light. The comparison between heaven and the universe shows that heaven is qualitatively superior to the universe. They literally used the word 'immensity' showing how big creation is, but heaven views it as small sparkling objects of light.


Now lets move on to the Mansion of Silence.

• The Mansion of Silence is stated to be far beyond Heaven
• Mansion of silence contains other creations, other universes

- There are actually infinite creations in the mansion of silence. The Presence says infinity answers infinity, like mirrors facing each other across a hallway. The mirrors in the mansion CONTAIN these universes. This would make mansion of Silence Low 1-C.

Now i'll address the 1-A argument.
This is what the FAQ says:
"A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

The void acts as a background for creation.
- "It is a matter of perception. There is no time here. And no space. So all things are layered on themselves endlessly and perception twists around its own axis until its blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition,".
Lucifer was in a place beyond all definitions of space and time and this would apply to to stacked layers of dimensional space and time, mainly because the scan refers so much of infinite axis, layers, layered of repetition etc

- The Void is infinite and eternal and no matter how large Creations you fill it with, they will never take up any room.
You can have any amounts of space in the void and it will still be treated as zero.

- Elaine first have to push the "absence of space" of the Void in order to fill it.
This matches with what the FAQ says:
"arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely"

However, we still have this at POSSIBLE 1-A since we are strict on it.
This is literally why the tier is Low 1-C, POSSIBLY 1-A

 

[LuciferX]

This is what the FAQ says:
"A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

The void acts as a background for creation.
- "It is a matter of perception. There is no time here. And no space. So all things are layered on themselves endlessly and perception twists around its own axis until its blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition,".
Lucifer was in a place beyond all definitions of space and time and this would apply to to stacked layers of dimensional space and time, mainly because the scan refers so much of infinite axis, layers, layered of repetition etc

Quote says "no time" not beyond.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

No space/time ≠ Beyond space and time.

Layers are not transcendental ones.

- The Void is infinite and eternal and no matter how large Creations you fill it with, they will never take up any room.
You can have any amounts of space in the void and it will still be treated as zero.

Just 2-A.

Elaine first have to push the "absence of space" of the Void in order to fill it.
This matches with what the FAQ says:

physical spaces which can be added to it are merely 3D/4D spaces, assuming any D structure can be added is just NLF.

 

[Robo432343]

Quote says "no time" not beyond.

No space/time ≠ Beyond space and time.

We already know Time and space are extensions of Lucifer and the Void>>>>
"To discipline your eyes and mind to that new perspective—to see Time where no Time is—-takes an effort of Will beyond imagining."

Layers are not transcendental ones.

Doesn't have to be according to FAQ

Just 2-A.

" if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted"

physical spaces which can be added to it are merely 3D/4D spaces, assuming any D structure can be added is just NLF.

Thats not the point here. Space can be added and removed from the Void and the void will remain unaffected

 

[LuciferX]

We already know Time and space are extensions of Lucifer and the Void>>>>
"To discipline your eyes and mind to that new perspective—to see Time where no Time is—-takes an effort of Will beyond imagining."

All the scans say No Time, not beyond time or space.

Doesn't have to be according to FAQ

They have to be. You're literary misinterpreting it, if someone is above of a hierarchy of layers without any transcendence, it's not 1A.

Layers aren't higher dimensions either. In that scan, which said all the things are layered on themselves endlessly, It's merely showed some past and present events there which make sense it's smth about how time axis acts from that place.

Nothing suggested about higher levels of existence or infinite axis."

if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted"

You are literary trying to say transcending space is 1A with some different words.

Thats not the point here. Space can be added and removed from the Void and the void will remain unaffected

FAQ says about dimensional planes not just spaces. It should specify as higher dimensions.

 

[Xearsay]

Yes, that's how counter examples work. By referring to different things and showing how the logic fails.

If that’s the case, then what you did doesn’t doesn’t qualify as a counter example. As bringing up another possible offender to my statement, in attempt to point out some kind of hypocrisy you think I hold, doesn’t refute my statement or attack the logic itself in the statement itself. It’s simply just switching the subject to focus on my moral standards. Which is basic whataboutism.

This also proves that you’re the one who’s responsible for why this argument we had, became such a mess. As, instead of just addressing what I’m saying you used sly tactics to try and change the subject and deflect from what’s being talked about.

 

[Robo432343]

This whatboutism talk is irrelevant
Lets talk about the actual tiering for the cosmologies

 

[Deagonx]

If that’s the case, then what you did doesn’t doesn’t qualify as a counter example. As bringing up another possible offender to my statement, in attempt to point out some kind of hypocrisy you think I hold, doesn’t refute my statement or attack the logic itself in the statement itself. It’s simply just switching the subject to focus on my moral standards. Which is basic whataboutism.

This also proves that you’re the one who’s responsible for why this argument we had, became such a mess. As, instead of just addressing what I’m saying you used sly tactics to try and change the subject and deflect from what’s being talked about.

This is so dramatic. These aren't "sly tactics" and nothing I said is related to moral standards. It's the basic concept of debate to use a counter-example to prove a line of logic wrong.

You claimed that Heaven can't have superiority because it can see the galaxies. That is obviously nonsense, and one of the most obvious counter examples is Nil. Me bringing that up isn't whataboutism.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Anyway

Timothy Hunter

Timothy "Tim" Hunter is a young man from London, born with the titles of Opener, Maker, Sign, and Merlin. He is the conduit through which all magic enters creation, and with that power, he has the potential to become the greatest mage in the DC Universe. At the age of 14, Tim was approached by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

will hunter's 1-A stuff be affected?

No . He scales from JM Demattis logos

 

[Deagonx]

Another piece of evidence to consider:

Asking the size of the Silver City is a meaningless question

And some other scans to debunk the "if you can see it, it must not be infinitesimal" claim.

The void is infinite and eternal, the portion of it that can be filled amounts to zero.

The Presence says "We can watch the creations enjoy their brief efflorescences."

So despite the fact that the creations are indeed infinitesimal from the perspective of the void, the Presence and Lucifer can still see them.

 

[Xearsay]

With assumptions that could possibly put the Silver City at tier 3. Definitely not tier 1 though since it would need to have a certain type of superiority to the universe, which it doesn’t.

Sure creations are infinitesimal compared to the size of the Void but how does that mean it’s infinitesimal to Lucifer? Isn’t Lucifer also infinitesimal compared to the size of the Void?

 

[Vasco]

Though not in support of 1-A void but if it gets accepted, Lucifer being able to impose or become it already makes Lucifer likely 1-A also though by possession probably.

 

[Deagonx]

The evidence is very strong in favor of the superiority of Heaven to the multiverse. Though at those point all that's left is to have the staff make their assessment.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to say the 1-A for the Void is controversial and would probably require its own CRT, so to move things forward and not drag things out unnecessarily, the Void can be "At least low 1-C" for now since that is solid, then we can make the CRT for 1-A void later.

For the record I personally agree with Xearsay regarding this particular point. I think that our rules are far too lenient regarding assigning extremely high tiers and that a single degree of qualitative superiority should usually be interpreted as being a single degree of infinity greater, not an infinite amount of them or more, unless we are provided with considerably more specific evidence.

 

[Robo432343]

The Faq kinda contradicts what our tiering system says but i thought we should just follow our current guidelines
Maybe we should get rid of it-

 

[Antvasima]

I definitely think that we should modify that part of it, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record I personally agree with Xearsay regarding this particular point. I think that our rules are far too lenient regarding assigning extremely high tiers and that a single degree of qualitative superiority should usually be interpreted as being a single degree of infinity greater, not an infinite amount of themor more, unless we are provided with considerably more specific evidence.

The Faq kinda contradicts what our tiering system says but i thought we should just follow our current guidelines
Maybe we should get rid of it-

I definitely think that we should modify that part of it, yes.

@DontTalkDT

 

[Robo432343]

The presence can destroy blight tho
he just didnt allow it because it was part of his plan

 

[Deagonx]

It just says he could drive him back not destroy him

It says that he could drive blight and all evil out of the world with a word. It's clearly indicated that Presence could destroy Blight.

 

[Deagonx]

Driving him out of the world could just mean send him back to the collective unconscious

Why is the collective unconscious not "the world?"

It doesn't really matter what kind of explanation we create for what was meant. The scan clearly indicates that the Presence is far more powerful than Blight.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Can The Smile being beyond language possibly grant High 1-A via Negative Theology? Or do we assume “beyond language" here is only within concievablity?

 

[Gasper]

Can The Smile being beyond language possibly grant High 1-A via Negative Theology? Or do we assume “beyond language" here is only within concievablity?

Meh, i think those kind of things are just flowery language.

 

[Deagonx]

Also this isn't really the place for that kind of discussion.