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Or it could be all of existence.The world could just mean creation or the material plane either is fine
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Or it could be all of existence.The world could just mean creation or the material plane either is fine
The true form of the New Gods mostly scale to Darkseid and according to his profile on the wiki, here is the reasoning behind his tiering:Thank you.
I am in a hurry though. Can you give quick instructions regarding which phrases I should seach for and modify please?
How about removing it? It sounds like NLF to me tbh. transcending space time as outer req was already removed from wiki, so don't see why this can't be removed from FAQ.I definitely think that we should modify that part of it, yes.
Aren't Bleed and Orrey are 1-C?It was agreed that the Bleed and the Orrery are 2-C given the many evidence given to support a 4-dimensional structure. This feat is 2-C but if i remember correctly, Darkseid shouldn't scale to it.
It was agreed that the Orrery and the Bleed are 2-C.Aren't Bleed and Orrey are 1-C?
I think this isn’t necessarily true. The Monitors said the Multiverse had survived repairs from the loss of the universe 51 in the beginning of Final Crisis. However, at the end of Final Crisis they state this.Darkseid fell on New Earth and his fall damaged it. The entire reality was cracked and the New Earth was turned into a singularity. The main problem is not Darkseid's Fall. The Monitors , as shown in the scan above, said the Multiverse was fine and that New Earth/the Bleed Drain was secure. The main problem is when Darksaid crunched and turned New Earth into a doomsday singularity, which will cause the eventual destruction of the Orrery because of New Earth being the Foundation Stone of All Existence/Axis of Creation/Bleed Drain.
My bad. You're right on this one. But it doesn't change that Darkseid's fall cracked space-time around New Earth which started the whole thing.I think this isn’t necessarily true. The Monitors said the Multiverse had survived repairs from the loss of the universe 51 in the beginning of Final Crisis. However, at the end of Final Crisis they state this.
“The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseids fall is under repair.”
Meaning the Multiverse was not fine from Darkseids fall, as the Monitors just started repairing it at the end of Final Crisis.
Destroying an earth in orrey causes a chain reaction destroying all of them.“The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseids fall is under repair.”
Meaning the Multiverse couldn’t have been fine from Darkseids fall, as the Monitors still had to repair it at the end of Final Crisis.
Dosen't the Multiverse contain infinite Multiverses?My bad. You're right on this one. But it doesn't change that Darkseid's fall cracked space-time around New Earth which started the whole thing.
It's called "Omniverse".Dosen't the Multiverse contain infinite Multiverses?
And Darkseid's Shadow fall on this, right? Why isn't that 2-A?It's called "Omniverse".
And Darkseid's Shadow fall on this, right? Why isn't that 2-A?
Check my reply above. Outta context feat as usual.And Darkseid's Shadow fall on this, right? Why isn't that 2-A?
Mostly because of this: There are limitless planes of existence. Each plane of existence are deeper into pure oneness of God. Heaven, for example, is one of these planes and is higher than the material world.Maybe off topic but can someone elaborate Why Dematteis cosmology is High 1-B?
Current 1-A approach without having an infinite layered cosmology has some problems.I propose "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" for the New Gods and the Sphere of the Gods. Low 1-C for the Monitors and the Monitor Brothers. At least Low 1-C or 1-C for Perpetua, The Hands, Dr. Manhattan. I think the Overvoid should stay 1-A.
Wondering why sixth dimension given 1-C Tier and the specially the reasoning of three levels of infinity above 4D structures? Seems like Low 1-C to me.Tiering: As seen above, the Sixth Dimension is the pinnacle of the multiverse and sits above all the aforementioned realms and planes of existence, giving it 3 degrees of infinity above Low 2-C. Characters who scale to the Sixth Dimension like The Monitor, the Anti-Monitor and the World Forger are 1-C.
This was discussed earlier in the thread. We're going to change it to Low 1-CWondering why sixth dimension given 1-C Tier and the specially the reasoning of three levels of infinity above 4D structures? Seems like Low 1-C to me.
Yeah, the Monitors, Monitor Brothers, Mandrakk, Thought Robot should be straight Low 1-C.Current 1-A approach without having an infinite layered cosmology has few problems.
Wondering why sixth dimension given 1-C Tier and the specially the reasoning of three levels of infinity above 4D structures? Seems like Low 1-C to me.
In the context, Spectre referred to both metaphysical realms and alternate realities there. Didn't Deagonx debunk that "dream hierarchy" scan?Mostly because of this: There are limitless planes of existence. Each plane of existence are deeper into pure oneness of God. Heaven, for example, is one of these planes and is higher than the material world.
This was the scan of the Larfleeze story by DeMatteis which talked about infinite dimensions. Deagonx debunked this and said that these dimensions refer to parallel realities but what I'm showing you is an image of the Hal Jordan Spectre story of DeMatteis talking about the hierarchy of limitless plane of existence.In the context, Spectre referred to both metaphysical realms and alternate realities there. Didn't Deagonx debunk that "dream hierarchy" scan?
Those "limitless planes" also include alternate realities (which was displayed visually) so assuming every plane has R>F is blatantly wrong imo.This was the scan of the Larfleeze story by DeMatteis which talked about infinite dimensions. Deagonx debunked this and said that these dimensions refer to parallel realities but what I'm showing you is an image of the Hal Jordan Spectre story of DeMatteis talking about the hierarchy of limitless plane of existence.
Gonna quote what DX said:The planes of existence were treated to have higher-dimensional properties, even though the term "higher-dimensional" was never used. They are said to be deeper and more complex than the Material Universe. It's like some kind of hierarchy that eventually reaches The Divine Presence.
It's not a hierarchy of dreams, no. Robert was literally in a dream world living his perfect life until Spectre woke him up from it and brought him to the actual heaven. In an earlier scan Spectre says "There's an opportunity every soul has... when it crosses over. A chance to relive the life they've left behind... perfect it."
When Spectre says the universe is a dream, and that Heaven is a dream, and Robert's life is a dream as well, he isn't talking about an inception-esque hierarchy of fictional transcendence. It's that our existences -- on earth, in the intermediary dream heaven, and the real heaven, are meant to take us closer to our "true infinite selves."
To interpret what's being described in the comic as something cosmological is to misunderstand the context of the story. Spectre is speaking to the nature of what it means to exist and the purpose it has, not about some R>F dream hierarchy.
This is from Dematteis cosmology not vertigo.I don´t think this was even the reason why the heavens having qualitative superiority was accepted
The evidence for being truer and deeper than material world comes from that dream scan and that's the reason for it.I know the reason for qualitative superiority was them transcending the physical world not the dream part
The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C. Creation in DeMatteis' Cosmology is infinite-layered and each planes are higher dimensions as seen with Indra's Fourth Heaven, making the totality of creation a High 1-B structure.
Transcending space time without QS doesn't scale to Low 1C.well it´s a combination of both but the quote you send didn´t adress the transcending time and place point so I don´t think it debunks the argument just one piece of evidence.
1 (or any other finite number) over infinity isundefined, it's not zero. Math doesn't work here. So your "0%" math-logic fails here. The narration clearly says "the portion of it", aka the portion of the void. A portion of infinity is not nothing unless the infinity is nothing on its own. It must be either something or another infinity of that something.That would have been true if narration was talking about 2 objects with space and dimensions, but it is not.
I have heavy problems with the interpretation of DeMatteis cosmology. As the order of realms we use and placement of the presence as the supreme being both seem to me not like what Dematteis intended in his comics.
Gods and Devils like all forms of dichotomy are a references as dualities. Yet the Presence in his views is beyond all forms of it. The Smile is the identity of the Presence/Divine Presence. There's no distinction between them because he refers in his story many times to “God”, “Creator”, “Divine Creator”, and “Divine Presence” as all the same prelude to the idea of the one true Creator.The first thing is to cover would be the presence and his relation with the void. Firstly the presence is not the smile behind the universe as it´s clearly made distinct from him as something that remains after he ends creation and it´s a god beyond the duality of god and devil, Despite the presence within Dematteis comics being the god of heaven that exists as an opposite to hell. On top of that is just flat out stated that the creator is born from the void and the creator being an aspect of god is only stated outside the comics and Prayala later claims that even god will fall into her sleep anyways. So the presence absolutly is not beyond the void and he is never stated to be outside of twitter statements which the author clarifies to only be his personal opinion that doesn´t hold any weight.
Humans' dream is a reference to their connection through the Oversoul that connects us to him. We human are God as he is us when the self journey discovers of this is when they return back to the Smile.Next point to cover is the idea that The Presence dreams all of creation. While this is stated several times by many different characters, it´s clarified to be explicitly untrue and that in reality the humans are the one dreaming all of creation into being and not god. This also has been backed up on several other instances. Heaven is created from the mind of humans, The Presence didn´t take part in the creation of hell as it was made by the believe of the humans but not only hell works like that but the entire universe, and the mind is the source of all of creation. Within creation there are also seemingly places that the presence has no domain over as he couldn´t have saved the Phantom stranger would he have fallen into the world where Trigons sons reside. This all makes sense if The Presence doesn´t actually dream all of creation but it´s instead made from human believe as stated several times.
CU doesn't not abstain from the Presence of lower-tiering. All it does is show the potential human belief has as the Universe is built of belief, stories, and dreams.Tying into this is the placement of the collective unconscious in the cosmology as humans believes and ideas birth creation the collective unconscious should scale above the entirety of creation, but not only that the collective unconscious also has it´s own scaling beyond the Presence. Blight is a being born from humanities dark thoughts within the collective unconscious, every intent to harm him only makes him stronger, As a result of this The Presence can´t unmake Blight and fears him, to be clear this doesn´t make Blight more powerful than The Presence it just means The Presence can´t destroy him and by extension the collective unconscious. The will of The Presence would banish Blight into the collective unconscious but would state that Blight would never be gone.
The Presence is the Smile that is the one true Creator.My proposal for the new rattings
creation remains high 1-B
The Presence Low 1-A For surpassing and containing all of creation
The collective unconscious Low 1-A For being above The Presence and birthing all of creation
The void 1-A exists beyond all previous structures and birthed all things
The smile behind the universe 1-A exists beyond the void and is what gives creation it´s meaning
Heaven transcends Creation.Why should containing creations be low 1-C isn´t vertigos creation just 2-A?
No it does not, I am not seeing where you are seeing that, but please stop throwing around misinformationThe Faq kinda contradicts what our tiering system says but i thought we should just follow our current guidelines
Maybe we should get rid of it-
Bigger than 2-A is Low 1-C.Why should containing creations be low 1-C isn´t vertigos creation just 2-A?
The background and canvas things don't really make sense and can just be a single transcendence.No it does not, I am not seeing where you are seeing that, but please stop throwing around misinformation
it does, which is why background and canvas without context does not get you 1-AThe background and canvas things don't really make sense and can just be a single transcendence.
Shouldn’t Mandrakk and the Thought Robot have higher but separate keys?Yeah, the Monitors, Monitor Brothers, Mandrakk, Thought Robot should be straight Low 1-C.
I'm in favour of that getting removed in the future atleast root has a statement to be beyond any dimensional theory iirc, no other verse I know off qualifies, simply containing lesser dimensions doesn't make you 1-A even if you get unaffected by the number of Dimensions added or removed.it does, which is why background and canvas without context does not get you 1-A
???Driving him out of the world could just mean send him back to the collective unconscious which is what happens later on through his will who still says that Blight will never be gone, why would an aspect of The Presence lie, it´s just more consistent to say he can send him back not destroy him though
because the plan was to defeat blight, not completely destroy himThe same aspect that admits that Blight will never be gone and that he simply send him back to the collective unconscious.
Neither of them destroyed Blight they just defeated them
ik we're not arguing about who is more powerful. I feel like you didn’t even read my original message where I explicitly said that my point is not that Blight is more powerful than The Presence, just that The Presence can’t unmake him and by extension the collective unconscious.
uh exactly. Presence lets him exist because thats his planIt’s never said that not destroying him is a part of the plan only that The Presence let’s him exist in the world.
not really. that scan you sent was just blight being a cocky villain which is normal in comicsYes and none of your scan prove he can destroy him while I have explicit statements that The Presence can’t do it
There are so many verses that qualify, and if you want to get it removed make a CRT this thread is not for you to derail about itI'm in favour of that getting removed in the future atleast root has a statement to be beyond any dimensional theory iirc, no other verse I know off qualifies, simply containing lesser dimensions doesn't make you 1-A even if you get unaffected by the number of Dimensions added or removed.
Though "possibly" is okay.