The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

[Deagonx]

The world could just mean creation or the material plane either is fine

Or it could be all of existence.

 

[Elizio33]

Thank you.

I am in a hurry though. Can you give quick instructions regarding which phrases I should seach for and modify please?

The true form of the New Gods mostly scale to Darkseid and according to his profile on the wiki, here is the reasoning behind his tiering:

(His mere fall was able to break the Multiversal structure across all of time and damage the Orrery of Worlds [which contains the 5D Bleed]. Nearly succeeded in dragging the contents of the Orrery into a multiversal singularity where all was one with Darkseid)

It was agreed that the Bleed and the Orrery are 2-C given the many evidence given to support a 4-dimensional structure. This feat is 2-C but if i remember correctly, Darkseid shouldn't scale to it.

Darkseid was crunching the spacetime around Earth, corrupting it. New Earth is the linchpin that holds the Multiverse together, its the nexus of all collapsed realities. If you destroy New Earth, the multiverse goes down with it. This concept has been used before, in FC, Our Worlds at War (Where Imperiex tried to induce a Big Bang on Earth and that time when Supernan save Earth from the Phantom Planet where it was said that if Earth was destroyed then so does the multiverse.

The Main Earth and Earth 33 were called as "Axis of Creation" and within the storyline itselft, The Monitors called New Earth as the "Foundation Stone of All Existence".

Then there's also this: "New Earth is secure. The Bleed drains are intact".

Darkseid fell on New Earth and his fall damaged it. The entire reality was cracked and the New Earth was turned into a singularity. The main problem is not Darkseid's Fall. The Monitors , as shown in the scan above, said the Multiverse was fine and that New Earth/the Bleed Drain was secure. The main problem is when Darksaid crunched and turned New Earth into a doomsday singularity, which will cause the eventual destruction of the Orrery because of New Earth being the Foundation Stone of All Existence/Axis of Creation/Bleed Drain.

Credit to @Sandman31 for the information.

 

[LuciferX]

I definitely think that we should modify that part of it, yes.

How about removing it? It sounds like NLF to me tbh. transcending space time as outer req was already removed from wiki, so don't see why this can't be removed from FAQ.

 

[LuciferX]

It was agreed that the Bleed and the Orrery are 2-C given the many evidence given to support a 4-dimensional structure. This feat is 2-C but if i remember correctly, Darkseid shouldn't scale to it.

Aren't Bleed and Orrey are 1-C?

 

[Elizio33]

Aren't Bleed and Orrey are 1-C?

It was agreed that the Orrery and the Bleed are 2-C.

 

[Xearsay]

Darkseid fell on New Earth and his fall damaged it. The entire reality was cracked and the New Earth was turned into a singularity. The main problem is not Darkseid's Fall. The Monitors , as shown in the scan above, said the Multiverse was fine and that New Earth/the Bleed Drain was secure. The main problem is when Darksaid crunched and turned New Earth into a doomsday singularity, which will cause the eventual destruction of the Orrery because of New Earth being the Foundation Stone of All Existence/Axis of Creation/Bleed Drain.

I think this isn’t necessarily true. The Monitors said the Multiverse had survived repairs from the loss of the universe 51 in the beginning of Final Crisis. However, at the end of Final Crisis they state this.

“The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseids fall is under repair.”

Meaning the Multiverse couldn’t have been fine from Darkseids fall, as the Monitors still had to repair it at the end of Final Crisis.

 

[Elizio33]

I think this isn’t necessarily true. The Monitors said the Multiverse had survived repairs from the loss of the universe 51 in the beginning of Final Crisis. However, at the end of Final Crisis they state this.

“The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseids fall is under repair.”

Meaning the Multiverse was not fine from Darkseids fall, as the Monitors just started repairing it at the end of Final Crisis.

My bad. You're right on this one. But it doesn't change that Darkseid's fall cracked space-time around New Earth which started the whole thing.

 

[LuciferX]

“The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseids fall is under repair.”

Meaning the Multiverse couldn’t have been fine from Darkseids fall, as the Monitors still had to repair it at the end of Final Crisis.

Destroying an earth in orrey causes a chain reaction destroying all of them.

Iirc similar thing happened in JL crisis on two earths movie, owlman tried to destroy multiverse via destorying Prime Earth. Earth is the plot device.

 

[Gasper]

My bad. You're right on this one. But it doesn't change that Darkseid's fall cracked space-time around New Earth which started the whole thing.

Dosen't the Multiverse contain infinite Multiverses?

 

[LuciferX]

Dosen't the Multiverse contain infinite Multiverses?

It's called "Omniverse".

 

[Gasper]

It's called "Omniverse".

And Darkseid's Shadow fall on this, right? Why isn't that 2-A?

 

[Deagonx]

And Darkseid's Shadow fall on this, right? Why isn't that 2-A?

Darkseid only fell on the primary DC Multiverse, which had 52 universes at the time. His fall also didn't destroy any of the universes.

 

[LuciferX]

And Darkseid's Shadow fall on this, right? Why isn't that 2-A?

Check my reply above. Outta context feat as usual.

 

[LuciferX]

Maybe off topic but can someone elaborate Why Dematteis cosmology is High 1-B?

 

[Elizio33]

I propose "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" for the New Gods and the Sphere of the Gods. Low 1-C for the Monitors and the Monitor Brothers. At least Low 1-C or 1-C for Perpetua, The Hands, Dr. Manhattan. I think the Overvoid should stay 1-A.

 

[Elizio33]

Maybe off topic but can someone elaborate Why Dematteis cosmology is High 1-B?

Mostly because of this: There are limitless planes of existence. Each plane of existence are deeper into pure oneness of God. Heaven, for example, is one of these planes and is higher than the material world.

 

[LuciferX]

I propose "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" for the New Gods and the Sphere of the Gods. Low 1-C for the Monitors and the Monitor Brothers. At least Low 1-C or 1-C for Perpetua, The Hands, Dr. Manhattan. I think the Overvoid should stay 1-A.

Current 1-A approach without having an infinite layered cosmology has some problems.

Tiering: As seen above, the Sixth Dimension is the pinnacle of the multiverse and sits above all the aforementioned realms and planes of existence, giving it 3 degrees of infinity above Low 2-C. Characters who scale to the Sixth Dimension like The Monitor, the Anti-Monitor and the World Forger are 1-C.

Wondering why sixth dimension given 1-C Tier and the specially the reasoning of three levels of infinity above 4D structures? Seems like Low 1-C to me.

 

[Deagonx]

Wondering why sixth dimension given 1-C Tier and the specially the reasoning of three levels of infinity above 4D structures? Seems like Low 1-C to me.

This was discussed earlier in the thread. We're going to change it to Low 1-C

 

[Elizio33]

Current 1-A approach without having an infinite layered cosmology has few problems.

Wondering why sixth dimension given 1-C Tier and the specially the reasoning of three levels of infinity above 4D structures? Seems like Low 1-C to me.

Yeah, the Monitors, Monitor Brothers, Mandrakk, Thought Robot should be straight Low 1-C.

 

[LuciferX]

Mostly because of this: There are limitless planes of existence. Each plane of existence are deeper into pure oneness of God. Heaven, for example, is one of these planes and is higher than the material world.

In the context, Spectre referred to both metaphysical realms and alternate realities there. Didn't Deagonx debunk that "dream hierarchy" scan?

 

[Elizio33]

In the context, Spectre referred to both metaphysical realms and alternate realities there. Didn't Deagonx debunk that "dream hierarchy" scan?

This was the scan of the Larfleeze story by DeMatteis which talked about infinite dimensions. Deagonx debunked this and said that these dimensions refer to parallel realities but what I'm showing you is an image of the Hal Jordan Spectre story of DeMatteis talking about the hierarchy of limitless plane of existence.

 

[LuciferX]

This was the scan of the Larfleeze story by DeMatteis which talked about infinite dimensions. Deagonx debunked this and said that these dimensions refer to parallel realities but what I'm showing you is an image of the Hal Jordan Spectre story of DeMatteis talking about the hierarchy of limitless plane of existence.

Those "limitless planes" also include alternate realities (which was displayed visually) so assuming every plane has R>F is blatantly wrong imo.

 

[Elizio33]

The planes of existence were treated to have higher-dimensional properties, even though the term "higher-dimensional" was never used. They are said to be deeper and more complex than the Material Universe. It's like some kind of hierarchy that eventually reaches The Divine Presence.

 

[LuciferX]

The planes of existence were treated to have higher-dimensional properties, even though the term "higher-dimensional" was never used. They are said to be deeper and more complex than the Material Universe. It's like some kind of hierarchy that eventually reaches The Divine Presence.

Gonna quote what DX said:

It's not a hierarchy of dreams, no. Robert was literally in a dream world living his perfect life until Spectre woke him up from it and brought him to the actual heaven. In an earlier scan Spectre says "There's an opportunity every soul has... when it crosses over. A chance to relive the life they've left behind... perfect it."

When Spectre says the universe is a dream, and that Heaven is a dream, and Robert's life is a dream as well, he isn't talking about an inception-esque hierarchy of fictional transcendence. It's that our existences -- on earth, in the intermediary dream heaven, and the real heaven, are meant to take us closer to our "true infinite selves."

To interpret what's being described in the comic as something cosmological is to misunderstand the context of the story. Spectre is speaking to the nature of what it means to exist and the purpose it has, not about some R>F dream hierarchy.

 

[LuciferX]

I don´t think this was even the reason why the heavens having qualitative superiority was accepted

This is from Dematteis cosmology not vertigo.

 

[LuciferX]

I know the reason for qualitative superiority was them transcending the physical world not the dream part

The evidence for being truer and deeper than material world comes from that dream scan and that's the reason for it.

The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C. Creation in DeMatteis' Cosmology is infinite-layered and each planes are higher dimensions as seen with Indra's Fourth Heaven, making the totality of creation a High 1-B structure.

 

[LuciferX]

well it´s a combination of both but the quote you send didn´t adress the transcending time and place point so I don´t think it debunks the argument just one piece of evidence.

Transcending space time without QS doesn't scale to Low 1C.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

There was a the guy who summed up a point really well with the Void:

During Lucifer's venture into the Void, he saw all the Creations freely floating in the Void dying and being born all at once. Yet all of it only fills a portion of it and yet amounts to zero to its mass and volume:
The Void

I'll just quote him off:

1 (or any other finite number) over infinity isundefined, it's not zero. Math doesn't work here. So your "0%" math-logic fails here. The narration clearly says "the portion of it", aka the portion of the void. A portion of infinity is not nothing unless the infinity is nothing on its own. It must be either something or another infinity of that something.That would have been true if narration was talking about 2 objects with space and dimensions, but it is not.

Also, I believe the Mansions should be Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. It held the mirrors which contain different Creations. All playing in the same pattern as when Yahweh said “pattern persists and repeats.”

Also, We can note Yahweh made the foundation for his Creation. Michael used his power to fill that with matter(Big Bang) and Lucifer shaped it(Existence).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I have heavy problems with the interpretation of DeMatteis cosmology. As the order of realms we use and placement of the presence as the supreme being both seem to me not like what Dematteis intended in his comics.

He uses the Presence and Divine Presence interchangeably. That's why in almost all his Twitter threads he says “The Presence” as a synonym for God.

The first thing is to cover would be the presence and his relation with the void. Firstly the presence is not the smile behind the universe as it´s clearly made distinct from him as something that remains after he ends creation and it´s a god beyond the duality of god and devil, Despite the presence within Dematteis comics being the god of heaven that exists as an opposite to hell. On top of that is just flat out stated that the creator is born from the void and the creator being an aspect of god is only stated outside the comics and Prayala later claims that even god will fall into her sleep anyways. So the presence absolutly is not beyond the void and he is never stated to be outside of twitter statements which the author clarifies to only be his personal opinion that doesn´t hold any weight.

Gods and Devils like all forms of dichotomy are a references as dualities. Yet the Presence in his views is beyond all forms of it. The Smile is the identity of the Presence/Divine Presence. There's no distinction between them because he refers in his story many times to “God”, “Creator”, “Divine Creator”, and “Divine Presence” as all the same prelude to the idea of the one true Creator.

The Presence isn't the God of Heaven. He is the God of Creation which includes Heaven. That's when he takes the form of a belief system and now is called “Yahweh.” That is his presence.

Creator is a reference to Brahman which also indicate Creator of any shape and size because there isn't just one Creator.

God that is also beyond it entirely. It's symbolic because without any the consciousness of anything, nothing would appear to be. The author states he is beyond it and the comics support it.

You can see it in Seekers of Mystery, Doctor Fate Vol.1 and Vol.2, JLD Vol.1

Next point to cover is the idea that The Presence dreams all of creation. While this is stated several times by many different characters, it´s clarified to be explicitly untrue and that in reality the humans are the one dreaming all of creation into being and not god. This also has been backed up on several other instances. Heaven is created from the mind of humans, The Presence didn´t take part in the creation of hell as it was made by the believe of the humans but not only hell works like that but the entire universe, and the mind is the source of all of creation. Within creation there are also seemingly places that the presence has no domain over as he couldn´t have saved the Phantom stranger would he have fallen into the world where Trigons sons reside. This all makes sense if The Presence doesn´t actually dream all of creation but it´s instead made from human believe as stated several times.

Humans' dream is a reference to their connection through the Oversoul that connects us to him. We human are God as he is us when the self journey discovers of this is when they return back to the Smile.

Your scan suggests nothing of it. Every soul dreams of a Heaven, there is a true and deeper Heaven beneath a larger dream.

Hell wasn't created by human minds. That version of that personal Hell was created by him.

Hell is a state of mind because the body doesn't have a purpose. Your mind is what creates. Like how the Presence doesn't make a Hell for you, you come up with your own version of eternal damnation.

Just assume they are boosting because his Voice is everywhere as well as his presence. It's obvious because Trigon and Council didn't fear him and look at what he did when they didn't exist in a future timeline.

In short, you're missing a lot of contexts and assume that lesser of what was said.

Tying into this is the placement of the collective unconscious in the cosmology as humans believes and ideas birth creation the collective unconscious should scale above the entirety of creation, but not only that the collective unconscious also has it´s own scaling beyond the Presence. Blight is a being born from humanities dark thoughts within the collective unconscious, every intent to harm him only makes him stronger, As a result of this The Presence can´t unmake Blight and fears him, to be clear this doesn´t make Blight more powerful than The Presence it just means The Presence can´t destroy him and by extension the collective unconscious. The will of The Presence would banish Blight into the collective unconscious but would state that Blight would never be gone.

CU doesn't not abstain from the Presence of lower-tiering. All it does is show the potential human belief has as the Universe is built of belief, stories, and dreams.

It's not so much so the Presence couldn't. He simply didn't plan too. If he wanted he could get rid of Blight and all the evil of “the” world. From its phased it clear Evil was necessary to define Good or else they lose meaning.

My proposal for the new rattings

creation remains high 1-B
The Presence Low 1-A For surpassing and containing all of creation
The collective unconscious Low 1-A For being above The Presence and birthing all of creation
The void 1-A exists beyond all previous structures and birthed all things
The smile behind the universe 1-A exists beyond the void and is what gives creation it´s meaning

The Presence is the Smile that is the one true Creator.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Why should containing creations be low 1-C isn´t vertigos creation just 2-A?

Heaven transcends Creation.

The Mansions is far across from Heaven and is what you get when all forms of ideas whether be it angels, souls, universes, Creations, or ideas lose meaning to not have an afterlife.

Like Heaven and Hell, it transcends Creation as well as being the place that holds Creations. It scales to Heaven and Hell which are Low 1-C. Mansion could possibly be 1-C as well due to interpretation of containing infinite-sized structures and that barely fill it up like how of all Creation cannot fill a portion of the Void.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The Faq kinda contradicts what our tiering system says but i thought we should just follow our current guidelines
Maybe we should get rid of it-

No it does not, I am not seeing where you are seeing that, but please stop throwing around misinformation

 

[Vasco]

Why should containing creations be low 1-C isn´t vertigos creation just 2-A?

Bigger than 2-A is Low 1-C.

 

[Vasco]

No it does not, I am not seeing where you are seeing that, but please stop throwing around misinformation

The background and canvas things don't really make sense and can just be a single transcendence.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The background and canvas things don't really make sense and can just be a single transcendence.

it does, which is why background and canvas without context does not get you 1-A

 

[Xearsay]

Yeah, the Monitors, Monitor Brothers, Mandrakk, Thought Robot should be straight Low 1-C.

Shouldn’t Mandrakk and the Thought Robot have higher but separate keys?

I’m asking because based off how Morrison treats the Monitor Mind, it’s like this consciousness underlying everything where beyond the Multiverse all concepts and contradictions fall, and everything is one with Monitor Mind. This is evident from Morrison’s statements and from the comics, like when Mandrakk was pushed off Nil, he was engulfed by the mind of Monitor(Overvoid). We also know the Thought Robot infected Monitor Mind with questions and narratives when he was part of its consciousness. So shouldn’t they have separate keys for when they were in this state?

 

[Vasco]

it does, which is why background and canvas without context does not get you 1-A

I'm in favour of that getting removed in the future atleast root has a statement to be beyond any dimensional theory iirc, no other verse I know off qualifies, simply containing lesser dimensions doesn't make you 1-A even if you get unaffected by the number of Dimensions added or removed.

Though "possibly" is okay.

 

[Robo432343]

Driving him out of the world could just mean send him back to the collective unconscious which is what happens later on through his will who still says that Blight will never be gone, why would an aspect of The Presence lie, it´s just more consistent to say he can send him back not destroy him though

???
blight was literally defeated by an aspect of the presence
phantom stranger negged blight
its pretty clear presence can destroy blight here since presence>aspects
and when blight said, "not even your lord can change that" it was pretty obvious he was just acting cocky
its normal

 

[Robo432343]

The same aspect that admits that Blight will never be gone and that he simply send him back to the collective unconscious.

Neither of them destroyed Blight they just defeated them

because the plan was to defeat blight, not completely destroy him

. I feel like you didn’t even read my original message where I explicitly said that my point is not that Blight is more powerful than The Presence, just that The Presence can’t unmake him and by extension the collective unconscious.

ik we're not arguing about who is more powerful
we're talking about if tp can destroy blight, not just defeat him.

 

[Robo432343]

It’s never said that not destroying him is a part of the plan only that The Presence let’s him exist in the world.

uh exactly. Presence lets him exist because thats his plan

Yes and none of your scan prove he can destroy him while I have explicit statements that The Presence can’t do it

not really. that scan you sent was just blight being a cocky villain which is normal in comics
look at this
"if the presence had the ability to destroy me...don't you think he would have done it already?"
he didnt already do it because it was literally part of his plan not to

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'm in favour of that getting removed in the future atleast root has a statement to be beyond any dimensional theory iirc, no other verse I know off qualifies, simply containing lesser dimensions doesn't make you 1-A even if you get unaffected by the number of Dimensions added or removed.

Though "possibly" is okay.

There are so many verses that qualify, and if you want to get it removed make a CRT this thread is not for you to derail about it