The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 2

[Xearsay]

I’m actually neutral now. As despite Snyder’s work being a direct continuation of Morrison’s, the two excuses for not combining their cosmologies are essentially “they don’t fit together” and “overblown scaling.” However there was no examples provided for how these things don’t actually fit together and “overblown scaling” doesn’t actually mean anything. As it wouldn’t be overblown if the characters scaled from it.

I also see that Ultima’s point about Mike Carey and Neil Gaimans scaling to one another being literally the same situation as Morrison and Snyder, but are still allowed to coexist with one another was never addressed.

 

[Xearsay]

Is this thread just supposed to die or something? Why did everyone abandon this?

 

[Antvasima]

Given the complaints from Ultima, we have been talking about possible adjustments to our suggestions in private, but it takes quite a long while to prepare them properly.

 

[Antvasima]

I deleted a post from a very new member who also posted here without being allowed to. We should preferably keep this discussion focused on project members, staff, and knowledgeable experienced regular members with allowance only.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This is going a little slow, without much progress

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, sorry about that. We are trying to work of revising our suggestions in private with an alternative model that Ultima will hopefully find acceptable, but it is unfortunately going slowly.

 

[Antvasima]

Hello.

We have now finished preparing a new suggestion for a DC Comics cosmology revision in order to hopefully deal with Ultima's concerns.

DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Suggestion 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

Project members:

@Deagonx @Eficiente @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 @Pain_to12 @Planck69 @Sandman31

Staff members:

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Shadowbokunohero @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Tllmbrg @Nehz_XZX @Dereck03 @Agnaa @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @EliminatorVenom @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @DMUA @Jasonsith @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings

 

[KLOL506]

I am unsure as how to further this project with people far smarter than me handling the Tier 1 sections of the verse. My apologies, but the other members might be of some help here instead.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I share KLOL’s sentiments. My apologies

 

[LordTracer]

I share the same sentiments as KLOL as well, Tier 1 stuff is completely out of my realm of expertise.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. I was just trying to make all interested staff members who are sufficiently knowledgeable about higher tiers aware of that we have a second suggestion available now.

 

[Planck69]

The new suggestion looks good to me, from what I can understand of it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do we do about that 11-Dimensional quote from Eradicator anyways?

 

[Deagonx]

What do we do about that 11-Dimensional quote from Eradicator anyways?

Can you link the scan

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can you link the scan

Man of Steel #114

 

[Firestorm808]

I think that's also related to the use of the word dimensions in the Imperiex storyline.

 

[Qawsedf234]

dimensions in the Imperiex storyline.

Were dimensions used differently there?

 

[Deagonx]

Man of Steel #114

Well, since it's not by any of the main authors we aren't including it. If we open up to all DC we can actually find a lot of conflicting scans about how many dimensions there are. For instance in Countdown it was said that there are 14.

However in Snyders JL, Mxy directly states that the multiverse exists in 4 dimensions, and then you add imagination. So I believe we are using that

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alright.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am in the same boat as KLOL too.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Ditto with everyone and KLOL dropping out of the convo on the higher dimensional stuff. Hop will glance over anything else to comment on if its of argument in that thread later.

 

[Antvasima]

So are our new adjusted suggested solutions acceptable to you, @Ultima_Reality and other staff members here?

 

[Everything12]

The main issue had last time was how the continuities were divided, as that is the most important element which every other topic revolves around, yet it is something I don't have much knowledge on. So I'm going to save my opinions on other subjects until that has been sorted out.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the division itself was already accepted in our last thread. This thread is intended to decide how it should be divided, and since @Ultima_Reality had complaints in this regard, we spent a lot of time discussing and adjusting our suggestions to offer an alternative that will hopefully satisfy him

 

[Xearsay]

After looking at that blog, there’s a lot stuff that doesn’t really make any sense and requires us to essentially ignore other material by Morrison or Snyder to come to you guys’s conclusions.

The Orrery: The bleed was stated to be rotating through the fifth dimension, Wonderworld was stated to contain sixth dimensional bottles that can entrap 5D imps, and there’s also a 28 dimensions scan that Metron journeyed through, said by Darkseid. Additionally there was an 8-D object found by Allen Adam and references to 8-D mazes by the imps. So I don’t really understand how we rationalized a 4-D Orrery.

The Godsphere: This section is okay but it’s a missing some information about the New Gods.

There’s also some other structures missing like the Great Light and the interconnection.

Lastly, the entire Overvoid = Source/Presence thing doesn’t make any sense. The Source is directly stated in Snyder’s work to exist at the center of the Greater Omniverse and is described as having taken part in making creation and the New Gods, so it can’t be the Overvoid who isn’t the center of the Omniverse, knew nothing about creation, and didn’t actually take part in making it. Furthermore, in Morrison’s work it’s shown that beings can come from beyond the Source like with Maggedon which should be impossible if it’s the Overvoid, and the official finalized version of the map list them as two separate beings.

 

[Vasco]

So I don’t really understand how we rationalized a 4-D Orrery.

Orrery is 5-D currently accepted, jsyk.

 

[Xearsay]

Orrery is 5-D currently accepted, jsyk.

Do you mean “currently accepted” as in the current tiers on the site or the ones in the new proposal? I’m asking because this proposal below in the new blog is what I’m addressing.

• Tiering: The Orrery of Worlds encompasses 52 universes and the Bleed Space between and around them and exists in four dimensions according to Mr. Mxyzptlk which, in Snyder's term, are point, line, depth and time. When Mxy described the dimensionality of the multiverse, he did so almost verbatim in a way that represented a 4-D space-time continuum, meaning the Orrery itself is 2-C. After that, there are other universes outside of those known to the inhabitants of the Orrery and an infinite number of timelines stored in Hypertime, making a 2-A structure.

 

[Vasco]

Do you mean “currently accepted” as in the current tiers on the site

This.

 

[Firestorm808]

The Orrery: The bleed was stated to be rotating through the fifth dimension, Wonderworld was stated to contain sixth dimensional bottles that can entrap 5D imps, and there’s also a 28 dimensions scan that Metron journeyed through, said by Darkseid. Additionally there was an 8-D object found by Allen Adam and references to 8-D mazes by the imps. So I don’t really understand how we rationalized a 4-D Orrery.

Rodney Rabbit said the Bleed "rotates through the fifth dimension around a fixed point in the Orrery" but not that it's 5-D per se. Given that the fifth dimension applies to the entire map this isn't evidence that the Sphere transcends 5-D because it's outside the orrery.

 

[Deagonx]

So I don’t really understand how we rationalized a 4-D Orrery.

The fifth dimension is imagination, which isn't truly 5-D in the sense that is relevant to the wiki. As to how we concluded that the Orrery was 4-D, that's in the blog post. When Mxy is showing the multiverse map to the Justice League, he says: "Behold, the multiverse as you live it, puny heads, exists in four dimensions. Now add imagination, which exists outside of time and ta-da."

He is directly stating that imagination as a fifth dimension should be envisioned as an addition to a 4-D spatiotemporal multiverse. The other scan also shows Mxy stating that imagination is beyond length, width, depth, and time, which is a classic 4-D spacetime. This is similar to Snyder's statements from Mxy where he says the first dimension is a point, the second is a line, the third is matter, and the fourth is time. He slightly fumbled the geometry (should be line -> plane -> matter) but the core intent is the same.

We discussed internally and decided that a 4-D multiverse with 5-D imagination was more consistent with the totality of evidence. The Bleed's rotation around a fixed point in the Fifth Dimension is likely referring to imagination, not an additional spatial dimension, since bleed was regarded as the "life of the story" and has metatextual elements. Not everyone will necessarily agree, but we felt that the evidence was stronger for 4-D and that this was more consistent within the cosmology. This is in addition to the fact that there are complications with all of the main statements used to assert additional spatial dimensions. Such as the 28 dimension scan from Metron. It's never stated what kind of dimensions they are, and the scans with Metron aren't from Morrison or Snyder, in addition to being 25 years old.

Moreover, spatial dimensions are only truly relevant to the cosmology if they are universal/multiversal in scope. However, when we talk about things like an "8-D Mobius Loop" like was mentioned by Allen Adam, this is not a guarantee. There are many theories about small/localized spatial dimensions or dimensions that are unique to objects. So an 8-D mobius loop doesn't mean the universe is 8-D, it could just mean the object is 8-D (which doesn't constitute greater infinities). This isn't just conjecture, these are actual theories in physics, where the existence of several additional spatial dimensions that are as small as a femtometer exist.

There’s also some other structures missing like the Great Light and the interconnection.

The cosmology is a fusion of Snyder and Morrison and is meant to be an accurate depiction of the multiverse reflected by the main characters portrayed in the cosmology. Not everyone Morrison ever wrote is incorporated into it if it was just referenced a single time and never picked up in any later books. Limbo stayed relevant in the cosmology, but "the Great Light" was basically only mentioned briefly in Animal Man and it wasn't clear what it even was, so we are not including things like that unless they are clear and consistent.

Lastly, the entire Overvoid = Source/Presence thing doesn’t make any sense. The Source is directly stated in Snyder’s work to exist at the center of the Greater Omniverse and is described as having taken part in making creation and the New Gods, so it can’t be the Overvoid who knew nothing about creation and didn’t actually take part in making it. Furthermore, in Morrison’s work it’s shown that beings can come from beyond the Source like with Maggedon which should be impossible if it’s the Overvoid, and the official finalized version of the map list them as two separate beings.

The map does not list them as two separate beings, in fact, the map explicitly identifies them as being the same, it names the white space both "Overvoid" and "The Source." He has also confirmed this in several interviews. Moreover, in Morrison's recent "The Absolute Multiversity" makes this extremely explicit.

Thankfully this will put to bed the constant lying about the map listing them as separate beings. As I repeatedly pointed out, the map labels the white space with both names, indicating that they are the same, which was supported further by direct statements that they were the same. It was already clear that the map supported their mutual identity, but it doesn't get more direct than this. "The white of the page space, which is labelled Overvoid/the Source."

"Eight crackling lightning-like paths link the Speed Force ring to the Source via the outer Monitor Sphere."

 

[Xearsay]

Rodney Rabbit said the Bleed "rotates through the fifth dimension around a fixed point in the Orrery" but not that it's 5-D per se. Given that the fifth dimension applies to the entire map this isn't evidence that the Sphere transcends 5-D because it's outside the orrery.

The point is that the fifth dimension is clearly something that exist in the Orrery. Whether that would make the bleed 5D or not, wasn’t a part of my claim, nor did I mention anything about the Godsphere transcending the Orrery because it’s outside of it.

 

[Deagonx]

The point is that the fifth dimension is clearly something that exist in the Orrery

Of course it does, in the sense that the Fifth Dimension (Imagination) is embedded in the entire multiverse, like Mxy said, but that doesn't affect our evaluations.

 

[Xearsay]

We discussed internally and decided that a 4-D multiverse with 5-D imagination was more consistent with the totality of evidence. The Bleed's rotation around a fixed point in the Fifth Dimension is likely referring to imagination, not an additional spatial dimension, since bleed was regarded as the "life of the story" and has metatextual elements. Not everyone will necessarily agree, but we felt that the evidence was stronger for 4-D and that this was more consistent within the cosmology.

I’m confused. What does the bleed being called life have to do with the fifth dimension existing inside of the Orrery? Also how does this invalidate the fifth dimension being a spatial dimension?

This is in addition to the fact that there are complications with all of the main statements used to assert additional spatial dimensions. Such as the 28 dimension scan from Metron. It's never stated what kind of dimensions they are, and the scans with Metron aren't from Morrison or Snyder, in addition to being 25 years old.

The Darkseid scan is from JLA 13 which is written by Morrison. Also it’s pretty obvious what type of dimensions they’re talking about. As the context is that these are dimensions which Metron explored through on his quest for absolute knowledge. The whole point of Metrons quest is that he uses his Mobius chair which traverses time and space to explore the heights of reality so he can gain knowledge. Plus the only type of dimensions mainly referenced in Morrison’s JLA run are spatial dimensions. Also who cares how old the scan is, it still exist which is all that matters.

The cosmology is a fusion of Snyder and Morrison and is meant to be an accurate depiction of the multiverse reflected by the main characters portrayed in the cosmology. Not everyone Morrison ever wrote is incorporated into it if it was just referenced a single time and never picked up in any later books. Limbo stayed relevant in the cosmology, but "the Great Light" was basically only mentioned briefly in Animal Man and it wasn't clear what it even was, so we are not including things like that unless they are clear and consistent.

The Great Light was referenced multiple times in Morrison’s Animal Man run throughout different issues. And how was the Great Light unclear? I’m asking because I think it’s odd how you can come to that conclusion when we get an explanation as to what it is multiple times.

The map does not list them as two separate beings, in fact, the map explicitly identifies them as being the same, it names the white space both "Overvoid" and "The Source." He has also confirmed this in several interviews. Moreover, in Morrison's recent "The Absolute Multiversity" makes this extremely explicit.

Yes the map does list them as separate entities. In the source wall section they’re explicitly listed separately. Furthermore you intentionally ignored all the other things I listed that directly contradicts them being the same entity. And no author statement is gonna magically invalidate all these contradictions as author statements are disregarded the moment they contradict the material.

 

[Xearsay]

Of course it does, in the sense that the Fifth Dimension (Imagination) is embedded in the entire multiverse, like Mxy said, but that doesn't affect our evaluations.

Literally nowhere in the Multiversity scan do they say the fifth dimension is embedded in the entire Multiverse. What you’re doing right now is basically creating headcanon to try and justify how you guys scaled the Orrery. JLA literally proves that there’s more dimensions such as Wonderworld containing bottles that exist in six dimensions when can entrap fifth dimensional imps.

 

[Firestorm808]

The 5-D Imagination rooted in the entire multiverse comes from the Snyder Era.

 

[Deagonx]

What does the bleed being called life have to do with the fifth dimension existing inside of the Orrery? Also how does this invalidate the fifth dimension being a spatial dimension?

First, we know that the Fifth Dimension isn't spatial, this is directly stated multiple times. Second, what I said wasn't about bleed being called life, it was about bleed being called the "life of the story" and it's metatextual elements, in reference to the fact that the phrase "rotating around a fixed point in the fifth dimension" doesn't necessitate anything spatial.

The Darkseid scan is from JLA 13 which is written by Morrison. Also it’s pretty obvious what type of dimensions they’re talking about. As the context is that these are dimensions which Metron explored through on his quest for absolute knowledge. The whole point of Metrons quest is that he uses his Mobius chair which traverses time and space to explore the heights of reality so he can gain knowledge. Plus the only type of dimensions mainly referenced in Morrison’s JLA run are spatial dimensions. Also who cares how old the scan is, it still exist which is all that matters.

I'm aware of the Darkseid scan, but he does not mention what kind of dimension it is, and your contention that it is "obvious" does not get us there. Moreover, the greater point of consistency still remains. A single scan from Morrison's JLA run in 1997 is not the predominant factor in how we assess a cosmology that is primarily centered around comics from 2009-2020, which is completely devoid of any mention of extra spatial dimensions, if we do not have further evidence that establishes the continued relevance of 28 dimension (and this would still require very clear evidence that the dimensions are spatial, which we do not have). We aren't giving every cosmic being 20+ extra levels of infinity just because Darkseid said "28 dimensions" once with no context 25 years ago.

The Great Light was referenced multiple times in Morrison’s Animal Man run throughout different issues. And how was the Great Light unclear? I’m asking because I think it’s odd how you can come to that conclusion when we get an explanation as to what it is multiple times.

I am aware it was mentioned a couple of times, but again, you're missing the focal point of what I am saying: It had no role outside of Animal Man, and we are not going to jam everything from Animal Man into the cosmology if they did not have a good reason to be. We may name these cosmologies after the authors, but authorship is only one consideration among many. Not everything that every author wrote can be considered to be a part of the continuity if it did not stay in continuity. There's no good reason to interpret Perpetua, for instance, as scaling above a "Great Light" or et cetera.

Yes the map does list them as separate entities. In the source wall section they’re explicitly listed separately. Furthermore you intentionally ignored all the other things I listed that directly contradicts them being the same entity. And no author statement is gonna magically invalidate all these contradictions as author statements are disregarded the moment they contradict the material.

No, they aren't, those are all describing the same being, as demonstrated by the fact that "Unknowable" explicitly refers to the Overvoid. Further, I am not referring to author statements, this was published in Ultimate Multiversity a few months ago, and it's official DC material, which explicitly defines them as being the same. You aren't going to get a pass on pretending it doesn't exist.

It is definitive. The Source and the Overvoid are the same thing in this cosmology. The map supports this directly, and despite attempts to miscontrue the data, Ultimate Multiversity explicit backs this up, as do multiple author statements.

Literally nowhere in the Multiversity scan do they say the fifth dimension is embedded in the entire Multiverse. What you’re doing right now is basically creating headcanon to try and justify how you guys scaled the Orrery.

He points to the entire multiversity map, and says add imagination, and he says "Imagination is the blood of the multiverse. The energy that flows between the realms."

So, yes, the fifth dimension encompasses the entire multiverse. The "rotating around a fixed point in the Fifth Dimension" does not drastically alter our scaling.

 

[Xearsay]

First, we know that the Fifth Dimension isn't spatial, this is directly stated multiple times. Second, what I said wasn't about bleed being called life, it was about bleed being called the "life of the story" and it's metatextual elements, in reference to the fact that the phrase "rotating around a fixed point in the fifth dimension" doesn't necessitate anything spatial.

I disagree but even if it wasn’t a spatial dimension it would still be a higher transcendent dimension that exist in the Orrery. As evident from JLA and Wonderworld thing I mentioned. 5D imps were entrapped in a bottle of six dimensions in Wonderworld.

Moreover, the greater point of consistency still remains. A single scan from Morrison's JLA run in 1997 is not the predominant factor in how we assess a cosmology that is primarily centered around comics from 2009-2020, which is completely devoid of any mention of extra spatial dimensions, if we do not have further evidence that establishes the continued relevance of 28 dimension (and this would still require very clear evidence that the dimensions are spatial, which we do not have). We aren't giving every cosmic being 20+ extra levels of infinity just because Darkseid said "28 dimensions" once with no context 25 years ago.

This sounds like a lot of arbitrary excuses rather than actual valid reasons. Whether it’s predominant has nothing to do with whether it exist as a part of the cosmology. With a verse as cluttered as DC’s I doubt there is even enough time to make sure everything’s predominant. Also I already gave evidence that these 28 dimensions are referencing spatial dimensions. As it wouldn’t make any sense for Metron to be journeying on his Mobius chair which traverses time and space, through dimensions that aren’t spatial.

Also you kind of just exposed yourself with that last sentence. You’re more focused on whether this would result in tier upgrades rather than truthfulness. Which kind of just proves Matthews point that you guys don’t actually care about accuracy, but rather just finding ways to downgrade the verse.

I am aware it was mentioned a couple of times, but again, you're missing the focal point of what I am saying: It had no role outside of Animal Man, and we are not going to jam everything from Animal Man into the cosmology if they did not have a good reason to be. We may name these cosmologies after the authors, but authorship is only one consideration among many. Not everything that every author wrote can be considered to be a part of the continuity if it did not stay in continuity. There's no good reason to interpret Perpetua, for instance, as scaling above a "Great Light" or et cetera.

I didn’t jam everything from Animal Man. I’m only including stuff that was mentioned in Morrisons run. Also, once again, whether these structures are repeatedly mentioned or not has nothing to do with whether they exist. Limbo was only mentioned two times in the span of several decades. The Monitor Sphere was mentioned only twice as well. It’s pretty foolish to try and use how many times these cosmic structures are mentioned as a valid reason to deny their existence.

Also once again you’re exposing yourself. If the Great Light is a structure that exist beneath Perpetua, the yes Perpetua would scale above it. You’re more concerned about trying to prevent high tiers than actual truthfulness.

No, they aren't, those are all describing the same being, as demonstrated by the fact that "Unknowable" explicitly refers to the Overvoid. Further, I am not referring to author statements, this was published in Ultimate Multiversity a few months ago, and its official DC material, which explicitly defines them as being the same. You aren't going to get a pass on pretending it doesn't exist.

The Overvoid was described as an immense, unknowable entity during Final Crisis. It’s never addressed as the “Unknowable” or anything like that. The only time the “Unknowable” was mentioned goes back to JLA where it was established that Wonderworld is the last outpost before the Unknowable. Which is important because Maggedon who exist in in the area directly beyond Wonderword was stated to come “from beyond The Source.” Meaning if you think the Overvoid is the unknowable then you’re basically proving that the Overvoid is not The Source as the Unknowable was established as something beyond The Source.

Also what you’re showing is just extra written messages from Morrison. Which is basically an author statement. You don’t have any evidence from the actual story of the comic itself. However I do. And the evidence I have completely outweighs yours.

So, yes, the fifth dimension encompasses the entire multiverse. The "rotating around a fixed point in the Fifth Dimension" does not drastically alter our scaling.

“Nowhere in the Multiversity scan.” What you referenced was not the Multiversity scan.

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree but even if it wasn’t a spatial dimension it would still be a higher transcendent dimension that exist in the Orrery. As evident from JLA and Wonderworld thing I mentioned. 5D imps were entrapped in a bottle of six dimensions in Wonderworld.

The characterization of the Fifth Dimension has changed immensely since the 90s. If I remember correctly, it hadn't even been called Imagination yet during that run, and was explicitly a spatial dimension. The most consistent iteration is Imagination, and we aren't going to simultaneously consider it both just to increase scaling, because it clearly isn't spatial anymore.

This sounds like a lot of arbitrary excuses rather than actual valid reasons. Whether it’s predominant has nothing to do with whether it exist as a part of the cosmology. With a verse as cluttered as DC’s I doubt there is even enough time to make sure everything’s predominant. Also I already gave evidence that these 28 dimensions are referencing spatial dimensions. As it wouldn’t make any sense for Metron to be journeying on his Mobius chair which traverses time and space, through dimensions that aren’t spatial.

You don't have to agree with it. Your "evidence" was specious and I do not agree with your conclusion on the matter. The dimension could just as easily be non-spatial, and as long as they are outside the universes of the Orrery they would still be considered "outside time and space."

Also you kind of just exposed yourself with that last sentence. You’re more focused on whether this would result in tier upgrades rather than truthfulness. Which kind of just proves Matthews point that you guys don’t actually care about accuracy, but rather just finding ways to downgrade the verse.

Accuracy and truthfulness are why we will not allow such flimsy evidence to justify undeserved upgrades. Rather, it's the opposite. The only reason anyone would try and impose 28 spatial dimension on DC based on this non-evidence is because they only care about tiers, not accuracy.

Also, once again, whether these structures are repeatedly mentioned or not has nothing to do with whether they exist. Limbo was only mentioned two times in the span of several decades. The Monitor Sphere was mentioned only twice as well. It’s pretty foolish to try and use how many times these cosmic structures are mentioned as a valid reason to deny their existence.

Consistency and continuity are important, and we don't have that here. Limbo was visited in Animal Man, and Final Crisis, and was placed on the Multiversity Map. That's a pretty big deal. The Monitor Sphere was also showcased in FC, visited in The Unexpected, visited in Justice League, and is on the Multiversity Map. These are also much much more recent than the 90s.

Also once again you’re exposing yourself. If the Great Light is a structure that exist beneath Perpetua, the yes Perpetua would scale above it. You’re more concerned about trying to prevent high tiers than actual truthfulness.

The fact that you do not understand the basic premise of this project does not mean that I am "exposing myself" by pointing out the fact that it is nonsensical to scale characters above cosmic structures that they don't have any connection to. That is why we are separating the cosmologies in the first place. As the original post clearly pointed out, authorship alone is not a basis for inclusion. Continuity is the larger factor. Cosmic structures that are completely isolated to Animal Man are not going to be grandfathered in just because Morrison wrote them, that's antithetical to the point of this project.

The Overvoid was described as an immense, unknowable entity during Final Crisis. It’s never addressed as the “Unknowable” or anything like that.

You're contradicting yourself. It was called Unknowable. You're proposing that it is a coincidence that the Overvoid was called unknowable during Final Crisis, and that some other unrelated thing called "the unknowable" just-so-happens to be next to the other two things that we explicitly know Grant considers the same? No thanks. You might see fit to live in complete delusion, but the obvious reality is that the description on the map is describing a singular being, and the totality of evidence supports that.

Meaning if you think the Overvoid is the unknowable then you’re basically proving that the Overvoid is not The Source as the Unknowable was established as something beyond The Source.

In a completely different cosmology that has no connection to the one we are discussing, from comics that predate the existence of the Overvoid? Irrelevant.

Also what you’re showing is just extra written messages from Morrison. Which is basically an author statement. You don’t have any evidence from the actual story of the comic itself. However I do. And the evidence I have completely outweighs yours.

What's printed in DC comics is far more important than your opinion, and the evidence from the comics ondeed supports . You have already been thoroughly debunked on this subject even before Absolute Multiversity put it directly in writing.

1) The Map explicitly identifies them as the same thing, the labelling convention of the map makes this overtly clear, every label written on the map is naming the structure or location the name is on. You would have to make a special pleading argument that the label for "the Source" is fundamentally different than every other label on the map. There is no basis for this.

2) The author has repeatedly stated his intention that they are the same thing.

3) The draft map clearly establishes that "the source is the white page" affirming this interpretation.

4) Absolute Multiversity officially establishes this, that the Source and the Overvoid are the same thing.

More importantly, referencing JLA stories is meaningless, the Overvoid hadn't been written then, and Morrison changed tons of things since. Once again, the fact that Morrison wrote it doesn't override everything else, and this conversation will go nowhere until you understand that basic premise.

“Nowhere in the Multiversity scan.” What you referenced was not the Multiversity scan.

Okay. It was referenced in Justice League. What's your point?

 

[Xearsay]

The characterization of the Fifth Dimension has changed immensely since the 90s. If I remember correctly, it hadn't even been called Imagination yet during that run, and was explicitly a spatial dimension. The most consistent iteration is Imagination, and we aren't going to simultaneously consider it both just to increase scaling, because it clearly isn't spatial anymore.

There was some elements of the fifth dimension involving imagination even in the 90s. Fifth dimensional engines for example were said to run on pure imagination. Either way theres clearly contradictions between how Morrison treats the fifth dimension and how Snyder treats it.

You don't have to agree with it. Your "evidence" was specious and I do not agree with your conclusion on the matter. The dimension could just as easily be non-spatial, and as long as they are outside the universes of the Orrery they would still be considered "outside time and space."

It’s not just that I don’t agree, your reason itself isn’t valid. Whether something is predominant or not has nothing to do with whether it exist. Also no they literally can’t be non-spatial. If that was the case then Metrons Mobius chair wouldn’t be able to journey through them.

Consistency and continuity are important, and we don't have that here. Limbo was visited in Animal Man, and Final Crisis, and was placed on the Multiversity Map. That's a pretty big deal. The Monitor Sphere was also showcased in FC, visited in The Unexpected, visited in Justice League, and is on the Multiversity Map. These are also much much more recent than the 90s.

You’re kind of avoiding the point. Whether it’s consistently mentioned or not doesn’t invalidate whether it exist. As I said I’ve already said, with a verse as cluttered as DC it’d be very difficult to make every single location in the verse predominant. Which is completely fine.

The fact that you do not understand the basic premise of this project does not mean that I am "exposing myself" by pointing out the fact that it is nonsensical to scale characters above cosmic structures that they don't have any connection to.

If she scales to structures that are above the Great Light, then that is a connection. You’re acting like characters need to directly interact with every single specific location or structure within a verse to scale above them. It’s very much possible for characters to scale above things without directly interacting with them. For example (X) destroyed (insert realm). (Insert realm) transcends the universe completely, therefore (X) scales above the universe.

You're contradicting yourself. It was called Unknowable. You're proposing that it is a coincidence that the Overvoid was called unknowable during Final Crisis, and that some other unrelated thing called "the unknowable" just-so-happens to be next to the other two things that we explicitly know Grant considers the same?

It was described as an immense and unknowable being sure. That doesn’t actually make it the Unknowable which dates back to JLA and is strictly beyond The Source.

In a completely different cosmology that has no connection to the one we are discussing, from comics that predate the existence of the Overvoid? Irrelevant.

How is it in a completely different cosmology? Also you’re the one saying the Overvoid is the Unknowable. And I already explained that if the Overvoid is the Unknowable, then it cannot be the Source as the Unknowable is beyond the Source.

More importantly, referencing JLA stories is meaningless, the Overvoid hadn't been written then, and Morrison changed tons of things since. Once again, the fact that Morrison wrote it doesn't override everything else, and this conversation will go nowhere until you understand that basic premise.

Once again, you’re the one claiming the Overvoid is the Uknowable which is a thing that was first introduced in JLA and is beyond the Source. Meaning you literally refuted your own claims about the Overvoid being the Source.

Okay. It was referenced in Justice League. What's your point?

My point is that bringing up what’s said Justice League isn’t going to counter my claim being “nowhere in the Multiversity scan do they say the fifth dimension is embedded in the entire Multiverse.” As I clearly expressed that I was strictly talking about Multiversity.

 

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Either way theres clearly contradictions between how Morrison treats the fifth dimension and how Snyder treats it.

No duh, that was part of the reason we intended to split them. The current iteration is based on the push back to that, and this is the best way we found to incorporate both of their writings in a way that was consistent and accurate.

It’s not just that I don’t agree, your reason itself isn’t valid. Whether something is predominant or not has nothing to do with whether it exist. Also no they literally can’t be non-spatial. If that was the case then Metrons Mobius chair wouldn’t be able to journey through them.

Your objection is unrelated to the reasoning being used. The basis of this project is establishing a consistent cosmology that certain characters scale to. My point in saying that a single JLA scan is not the "predominant factor" is to point out the fact that the information you're referring to contradicts multiple other newer comics, and the resolution of that contradictions falls squarely in favor of the more consistent and more recent material.

Second, the idea that Metron's chair couldn't go to a spatial dimension doesn't make any sense. Non-spatial dimensions are just generic realms. I'm not calling them incorporeal, I'm saying they aren't referring to extra spatial dimensions. And that objection doesn't even make sense because DC plays fast and loose with that concept literally all the time with characters travelling between different realms.

Whether it’s consistently mentioned or not doesn’t invalidate whether it exist.

It determines whether or not we incorporate it into the cosmology. That's the entire idea behind splitting a cosmology, determining what goes in and what doesn't, compared to a "composite" cosmology. Cosmic structures that were entirely abandoned outside of Animal Man do not fit that criteria.

If she scales to structures that are above the Great Light, then that is a connection.

This is putting the cart before the horse. We must determine that there is a connection before the scaling, we cannot use the scaling to establish the connection. Once again, this project is about moving away from a composite cosmology. We are not scaling Perpetua to every cosmic structure ever written if there is no valid narrative basis for doing so.

That doesn’t actually make it the Unknowable which dates back to JLA and is strictly beyond The Source.

It was described as an immense and unknowable being sure. That doesn’t actually make it the Unknowable which dates back to JLA and is strictly beyond The Source.

Once again, you’re the one claiming the Overvoid is the Uknowable which is a thing that was first introduced in JLA and is beyond the Source. Meaning you literally refuted your own claims about the Overvoid being the Source.

You've also provided no JLA scans which use the term "the Unknowable" and saying it's "beyond the Source." Every scan I've seen from JLA uses it in a generic manner, not in the capitalized proper noun fashion that you seem to be implying, which makes this even more moot. How the generic adjective "unknowable" was used in the 90s before the Overvoid existed does not take priority over the use of the term in Final Crisis, which is more recent and immediately connected to Multiversity.

I disagree with your assessment. The fact that the Overvoid was directly described as unknowable, and that this term is co-located in the description of what is beyond the Source Wall alongside the Overvoid and the Source, which are explicitly identified as identical, makes this an easy conclusion that the description is just about the Overvoid, not different things. You are free to disagree, but this thread needn't be spammed circularly with your disagreements.

My point is that bringing up what’s said Justice League isn’t going to counter my claim being “nowhere in the Multiversity scan do they say the fifth dimension is embedded in the entire Multiverse.” As I clearly expressed that I was strictly talking about Multiversity.

Okay. It doesn't matter if it was in the Multiversity scan or in another scan from the cosmology.