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"Avengers Beyond" seemed to simply exist in order to completely depower and then give a fate far worse than death to The Beyonder, which didn't make sense considering his preceding evolution, and also added a pointless nonsense character that we will never hear from again to the origin story of his species, so I strongly disagree with your assessment here. I really despise the type of purely destructive hack writing that Derek did there.
 
I do agree with your take, but, it's pretty evident Avengers: Beyond took place before Defenders: Beyond. So, Beyonder is still ever as powerful when he left the House of Ideas.
 

Abstract:​


Since a recent revision pivots the Astral Plane as 1-A, it will remain 1-A. Meaning the Abstarct Universal True Forms remains a layer above baseline.

Omniverse:​

The changes to the Omniverse will adhere to just staying 1-A since we will not be using the dreams within dreams where reality is not real to the higher realms. Although, there's some interesting keys to it, the best for the Omniverse at the higher end is 1-A+. Which all the differences within worlds are in the same hierarchy and not a different one. So, the Multiversal/Omniversal form of the Abstracts will be reduced to 1-A.
Some abstract entities should be 1-A+, but the Omniverse itself should still be classified as H1-A, as Universal-Eternities (1-A+) are merely cells within the Omniverse/Eternity, which is too vast and varied to be scaled as 1-A+. The Omniverse should remain H1-A because it contains many distinct 1-A+ realms and entities within it.And those who could threaten the Omniverse should still be classified as H1-A.

The Outside:​

The Outside realms will all be reduced 1-A. However, the main difference is that each higher realms does not share the same relation of transcendence in the new wiki. So, the Far Shore, and the Beyond will just remain three layer.
Oblivion
The Void/Darkness/Outside


The Void should also be regarded as H1-A, as it is endless, even for Eternity (Omniverse) . Oblivion is also connected to primordial chaos and freedom, as his aspect, the Chaos King, embodies primordial chaos. In Chaos War, Oblivion was also called 'Chaos.' This connection might extend to The Abyss, the realm of pure chaos and freedom. Therefore, the Void may encompass nearly all planes of existence, except The House of Ideas, as the destination where the WHR returns when it dies and is reborn is darkness. The Handbook also states that the Void is the birthplace of the Phoenix (WHR).This means the Void is larger than the WHR and The Beyond.

The Mother of Horror also exists because of the Void.
The White Hot Room, Couldn’t-Be-Shouldn’t-Be/Could-Be-Shall-Be, and the House of Idea will be an additional layer.
The White Hot Room should still be H1-A, as it represents all things and all places. It is the plane where the creativity exists, and part of it functions as the 'White Paper' for the creations/stories. Even the Beyonder, a being of immense power, views the higher planes of existence (such as the White Hot Room and the Abyss) as a Multiverse.
The only realm and character to get High 1-A will be the One Above All and the House of Ideas.
The House of Ideas and TOAA should be considered H1-A+ rather than just H1-A , as he's above all plane of existence.
 
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You're going to need to prove otherwise then.
Question the Definition of “Canon”
What exactly is your definition of 'Canon'? In Marvel Comics, the term 'Canon' is not rigidly defined by a single author or storyline. Marvel Multiverse operates on the concept of countless parallel universes and timelines, including Earth-616 (the main continuity) and infinite other realities. Saying something isn’t Canon requires clear criteria, which Marvel itself often leaves ambiguous.

Point Out DeMatteis’ Official Marvel Publications
J.M. DeMatteis’ works have been officially published by Marvel Comics, including stories that introduced concepts like The Far Shore and The White Hot Room. These ideas have expanded the Marvel Universe in significant ways. Claiming his works aren’t Canon disregards the fact that Marvel itself approved and published these stories as part of its universe.

Highlight His Contribution to Marvel Cosmology
J.M. DeMatteis played a pivotal role in expanding Marvel Cosmology, particularly in exploring philosophical and higher dimensional concepts. For instance, The Far Shore is described as a realm beyond all dimensions, a place that even beings like Eternity and Infinity acknowledge as superior. Dismissing these contributions undermines the depth they bring to Marvel narrative structure.

Use Examples from Marvel Supporting DeMatteis’ Ideas
Looking closely, DeMatteis’ ideas have been referenced by other Marvel writers, such as Jonathan Hickman and Al Ewing. For example, The House of Ideas was prominently featured in Immortal Hulk and described as the source of everything in the Marvel Universe. The fact that other authors incorporate these concepts proves their significance and validity as part of Canon.

Conclude with Suggestions
Therefore, saying J.M. DeMatteis’ works aren’t Canon appears to be a subjective judgment rather than an evidence-based conclusion. If you want to refute their importance, you need concrete evidence that Marvel officially disregards them as Canon. However, based on existing material, DeMatteis’ works are integral to Marvel Cosmology and add substantial depth to the Marvel Universe.

Marvel Handbooks and Official Guides
Many concepts introduced by J.M. DeMatteis have been cited in official Marvel Handbooks and guides, reinforcing their status as part of the canon, at least within the context of the Multiverse.

"Referenced in Mainstream Storylines"

"Doctor Strange: Into Shamballa has been acknowledged as part of Doctor Strange history."

The Far Shore and the “Realm Beyond Dimensions” have been continuously utilized in Marvel broader Cosmology.

Editorial and Creative Intent
While Marvel has not directly stated that “everything” J.M. wrote is Canon, Marvel’s policy generally does not involve outright erasing Multiverse content. Officially published concepts remain canon unless explicitly retconned or removed, which has not happened with J.M. DeMatteis’ contributions.
 
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I do agree with your take, but, it's pretty evident Avengers: Beyond took place before Defenders: Beyond. So, Beyonder is still ever as powerful when he left the House of Ideas.
Really? I thought that it happened afterwards, which did not make any thematic sense whatsoever, but I thought that it was just horrible quality and extremely biased writing. 🙏
 
Also, DeMatteis's stories are mostly canon, but they are cosmologically incompatible with the more official mainstream interpretation, much like Jim Starlin's latest series of Marvel Comics works, so we have to consider them separate for practical reasons. 🙏
 
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Question the Definition of “Canon”
What exactly is your definition of 'Canon'? In Marvel Comics, the term 'Canon' is not rigidly defined by a single author or storyline. Marvel Multiverse operates on the concept of countless parallel universes and timelines, including Earth-616 (the main continuity) and infinite other realities. Saying something isn’t Canon requires clear criteria, which Marvel itself often leaves ambiguous.

Point Out DeMatteis’ Official Marvel Publications
J.M. DeMatteis’ works have been officially published by Marvel Comics, including stories that introduced concepts like The Far Shore and The White Hot Room. These ideas have expanded the Marvel Universe in significant ways. Claiming his works aren’t Canon disregards the fact that Marvel itself approved and published these stories as part of its universe.

Highlight His Contribution to Marvel Cosmology
J.M. DeMatteis played a pivotal role in expanding Marvel Cosmology, particularly in exploring philosophical and higher dimensional concepts. For instance, The Far Shore is described as a realm beyond all dimensions, a place that even beings like Eternity and Infinity acknowledge as superior. Dismissing these contributions undermines the depth they bring to Marvel narrative structure.

Use Examples from Marvel Supporting DeMatteis’ Ideas
Looking closely, DeMatteis’ ideas have been referenced by other Marvel writers, such as Jonathan Hickman and Al Ewing. For example, The House of Ideas was prominently featured in Immortal Hulk and described as the source of everything in the Marvel Universe. The fact that other authors incorporate these concepts proves their significance and validity as part of Canon.

Conclude with Suggestions
Therefore, saying J.M. DeMatteis’ works aren’t Canon appears to be a subjective judgment rather than an evidence-based conclusion. If you want to refute their importance, you need concrete evidence that Marvel officially disregards them as Canon. However, based on existing material, DeMatteis’ works are integral to Marvel Cosmology and add substantial depth to the Marvel Universe.

Marvel Handbooks and Official Guides
Many concepts introduced by J.M. DeMatteis have been cited in official Marvel Handbooks and guides, reinforcing their status as part of the canon, at least within the context of the Multiverse.

"Referenced in Mainstream Storylines"

"Doctor Strange: Into Shamballa has been acknowledged as part of Doctor Strange history."

The Far Shore and the “Realm Beyond Dimensions” have been continuously utilized in Marvel broader Cosmology.

Editorial and Creative Intent
While Marvel has not directly stated that “everything” J.M. wrote is Canon, Marvel’s policy generally does not involve outright erasing Multiverse content. Officially published concepts remain canon unless explicitly retconned or removed, which has not happened with J.M. DeMatteis’ contributions.
This place isn't to voice your concern about canon. If you think otherwise then make a CRT yourselves.
 
Some abstract entities should be 1-A+, but the Omniverse itself should still be classified as H1-A, as Universal-Eternities (1-A+) are merely cells within the Omniverse/Eternity, which is too vast and varied to be scaled as 1-A+. The Omniverse should remain H1-A because it contains many distinct 1-A+ realms and entities within it. And those who could threaten the Omniverse should still be classified as H1-A.
Being a “merely a cell” is quantitative. The comparison between 1-A to High 1-A isn't size-based. Anymore than how each layer of 1-A is more conceptualized or invoked R>F and High 1-A separate itself as an entirely different framework. None of those meet the qualifications.
Oblivion
The Void/Darkness/Outside


The Void should also be regarded as H1-A, as it is endless, even for Eternity (Omniverse) . Oblivion is also connected to primordial chaos and freedom, as his aspect, the Chaos King, embodies primordial chaos. In Chaos War, Oblivion was also called 'Chaos.' This connection might extend to The Abyss, the realm of pure chaos and freedom. Therefore, the Void may encompass nearly all planes of existence, except The House of Ideas, as the destination where the WHR returns when it dies and is reborn is darkness. The Handbook also states that the Void is the birthplace of the Phoenix (WHR).This means the Void is larger than the WHR and The Beyond.
None of that is High 1-A. We don't use voids as a basis for High 1-A without any further context. What you said isn't really High 1-A since some Abstracts can survive in the Void for a short while instead of being inaccessible to them.
The White Hot Room should still be H1-A, as it represents all things and all places. It is the plane where the creativity exists, and part of it functions as the 'White Paper' for the creations/stories. Even the Beyonder, a being of immense power, views the higher planes of existence (such as the White Hot Room and the Abyss) as a Multiverse.
Still part of the same hierarchy.
The House of Ideas and TOAA should be considered H1-A+ rather than just H1-A , as he's above all plane of existence.
No.
 
Being a “merely a cell” is quantitative. The comparison between 1-A to High 1-A isn't size-based. Anymore than how each layer of 1-A is more conceptualized or invoked R>F and High 1-A separate itself as an entirely different framework. None of those meet the qualifications.
As I mentioned, the Omniverse encompasses many layers- many planes of existence, including Abstract Entities, Eternities, Mystic Realms, the Megaverse (Multiverses within Multiverses), the Far Shore, and the Neutral Zone. These are all aspects of the larger Omniverse, each existing within its own hierarchical layers, with various high-level layers. Therefore, I don't believe the Omniverse should be classified as Outerverse-level, as it contains all of these (1-A+) layers.

None of that is High 1-A. We don't use voids as a basis for High 1-A without any further context. What you said isn't really High 1-A since some Abstracts can survive in the Void for a short while instead of being inaccessible to them.
A high-level plane of existence like the House of Ideas is classified as H1-A, and yet any being can still enter it.
Ok, agree.
 
As I mentioned, the Omniverse encompasses many layers- many planes of existence, including Abstract Entities, Eternities, Mystic Realms, the Megaverse (Multiverses within Multiverses), the Far Shore, and the Neutral Zone. These are all aspects of the larger Omniverse, each existing within its own hierarchical layers, with various high-level layers. Therefore, I don't believe the Omniverse should be classified as Outerverse-level, as it contains all of these layers.
Yeah, that's not what makes them qualitative in nature unless you have some scans showing it.
A high-level plane of existence like the House of Ideas is classified as H1-A, and yet any being can still enter it.
That would be more of a disqualifier that the House isn't High 1-A then upgrading the previous realms. However, they weren't randomly just taken to any of those realms without reason.
 
Yeah, that's not what makes them qualitative in nature unless you have some scans showing it.
The concept of the Omniverse is far more complex than just being classified as 1-A+. In reality, it exists within a vast hierarchy of planes of existence, with each plane representing a different layer of reality. For instance, Earth-616 is a fictional universe within the larger construct of Eternity's eternal imagination with all realities being narratives and dreams of Eternity. The Astral Plane is a higher frequency of reality, unbound by time or space, representing the realm of Ideas, Thoughts, and Narratives, while serving as a foundational layer of Earth-616's existence. Furthermore, the World Pool is a realm containing various comic books, each representing different possibilities and realities that lie within the Nexus. These realms, including the Superflow and the Neutral Zone, are part of an even larger, interconnected structure that exists beneath the Omniverse. So the Omniverse should be considered as H1-A, not just 1-A+, reflecting its vastness and complexity within a greater, multi-layered hierarchy of existence.
 
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The concept of the Omniverse is far more complex than just being classified as 1-A+. In reality, it exists within a vast hierarchy of planes of existence, with each plane representing a different layer of reality. For instance, Earth-616 is a fictional universe within the larger construct of Eternity's eternal imagination with all realities being narratives and dreams of Eternity. The Astral Plane is a higher frequency of reality, unbound by time or space, representing the realm of Ideas, Thoughts, and Narratives, while serving as a foundational layer of Earth-616's existence. Furthermore, the World Pool is a realm containing various comic books, each representing different possibilities and realities that lie within the Nexus. These realms, including the Superflow and the Natural Zone, are part of an even larger, interconnected structure that exists beneath the Omniverse. So the Omniverse should be considered as H1-A, not just 1-A+, reflecting its vastness and complexity within a greater, multi-layered hierarchy of existence.
No. Just no.

The second, third, and fourth links are broken.

The first scan is meant to entail some sort of R>F? Treating something as fictional as a metafictional joke isn’t 1-A.

As for the World Pool scans the only thing I could take from that is “our world is a dreamscape of a higher mind.” However, nothing of the a sort of “hierarchy” is involved. So that would just be one layer.
 
No. Just no.
Whyy
The second, third, and fourth links are broken.
Sorry- I've already fixed that.
The first scan is meant to entail some sort of R>F? Treating something as fictional as a metafictional joke isn’t 1-A.
My point is the concept of the Omniverse is far more intricate than simply being categorized as 1-A+. The realities within the Omniverse form a vast hierarchy of planes of existence, where each plane represents a distinct layer of reality , dream and narrative . As such, the Omniverse should be classified as H1-A, rather than 1-A+, to better reflect its immense complexity and its position within a greater, multi-tiered hierarchy of 1-A existence.
As for the World Pool scans the only thing I could take from that is “our world is a dreamscape of a higher mind.” However, nothing of the a sort of “hierarchy” is involved. So that would just be one layer.
These comic books represent entire realities, and my point is that these exist within a larger and higher plane of existence “ the Omniverse ”.
 
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My point is the concept of the Omniverse is far more intricate than simply being categorized as 1-A+. Reality- It exists within a vast hierarchy of planes of existence, where each plane represents a distinct layer of reality , dream and narrative . As such, the Omniverse should be classified as H1-A, rather than 1-A+, to better reflect its immense complexity and its position within a greater, multi-tiered hierarchy of 1-A existence.
Yeah, I've checked the scans, and only the “dream” things seem like a case. However, I said it before that's all the same transcendence which would only gain a few layers as oppose to grant an entirely different tier.
These comic books represent entire realities, and my point is that these exist within a larger and higher plane of existence “ the Omniverse ”.
A reality being smaller than another higher one without any R>F isn't 1-A.
 
Yeah, I've checked the scans, and only the “dream” things seem like a case. However, I said it before that's all the same transcendence which would only gain a few layers as oppose to grant an entirely different tier.
A reality being smaller than another higher one without any R>F isn't 1-A.
The first scan is meant to entail some sort of R>F? Treating something as fictional as a metafictional joke isn’t 1-A.
Realities are Eternities.

Note:Characters like Gwenpool, who possess power comparable to the Scarlet Witch, have stated that they can manipulate reality beyond the panel. This suggests that Earth-616 is much like a 'panel'—a fictional construct—since the Scarlet Witch's power allows her to alter the very fabric of Earth-616.

When traveling beyond Earth-616, it can be perceived as a mere panel, a fictional construct. The universe becomes just one layer among countless other boundless Eternities within the greater Omniverse, where multiple dimensions, realms, and realities coexist and interact, each existing simultaneously but on different planes.

And there are realms that exist beyond space-time, above the Eternities. Existence within the Omniverse has different layered structures of 1-A, which is why the Omniverse should be H1-A.
 
Realities are Eternities.

Note:Characters like Gwenpool, who possess power comparable to the Scarlet Witch, have stated that they can manipulate reality beyond the panel. This suggests that Earth-616 is much like a 'panel'—a fictional construct—since the Scarlet Witch's power allows her to alter the very fabric of Earth-616.
Earth-616 I recall is 1-A due to containing the Astral Plane. Which at that point I don't know where the baseline level of existence comes from, but in other instances this could catapult someone to High 1-A. In this instance, it is not an entirely different plane beyond the notion of quality transendence which Gwenpool follows as well. Unless, you're telling me Gwen scales to the One Above All which cannot suffice everyone to go up in tier because there's no logical coherence in that.
When traveling beyond Earth-616, it can be perceived as a mere panel, a fictional construct. The universe becomes just one layer among countless other boundless Eternities within the greater Omniverse, where multiple dimensions, realms, and realities coexist and interact, each existing simultaneously but on different planes.
Didn't we discuss this? That's only granting an additional layer. You would provide all of the higher realms share the same quality.
And there are realms that exist beyond space-time, above the Eternities. Existence within the Omniverse has different layered structures of 1-A, which is why the Omniverse should be H1-A.
Beyond space-time only with qualitative transcendence whether through conceptuality or R>F is 1-A. Being “layered” isn't indicative of that.
 
Earth-616 I recall is 1-A due to containing the Astral Plane. Which at that point I don't know where the baseline level of existence comes from, but in other instances this could catapult someone to High 1-A. In this instance, it is not an entirely different plane beyond the notion of quality transendence which Gwenpool follows as well. Unless, you're telling me Gwen scales to the One Above All which cannot suffice everyone to go up int tier because there's no logical coherence in that.
I thought that a 1-A reality, which is perceived as fictional by higher-dimensional beings, would make Omniverse H1-A.
Didn't we discuss this? That's only granting an additional layer. You would provide all of the higher realms share the same quality.
Beyond space-time only with qualitative transcendence whether through conceptuality or R>F is 1-A. Being “layered” isn't indicative of that.
Ok 🏳️.
 
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I will note some very important things with the structure of the Marvel Multiverse for a possible High 1-A rating.

This involves a unique story called Doctor Strange: Fall Sunrise and a bit of Immortal Thor. See in the Immortal Thor series when we see Toranos and Thor fighting there are things to not gloss over. It was mentioned the Yawning Void or Ginnungagap was mentioned to be the furthest shores of Eternity which would just refer to the Far Shore. This is established earlier in the Ultimates series when the Shaper of Worlds fell into Oblivion, he sawed what lay beyond supposedly the “Multiverse.” That's changed and my theory is that the Land we see in both Defenders: Beyond and Silver Surfer run which includes the Never Queen is still part of Eternity as one of three facets of the faces of existence. This would explain Al Ewing's intention both on his Twitter statement that the Far Shore is part of Eternity as well as Immortal Thor describing it to be so.

Yes, I know you may be confused since the Ultimates series and Defenders: Beyond seemed to imply it exists outside of Eternity. However, that's the thing that was rectified during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. The entirety of hierarchical cosmology is based on the fact that everything emanates from the Unknowable through the Four Worlds. Eternity represents the whole of existence in the sense that he also holds the hierarchy we see which includes the crown of Creation which is about the House of Ideas. This puts in question whether Eternity or Yggdrasil is meant to encompass the whole of existence. That's honestly hard to answer, but I think that everything is a structural part of one accord within some sort of “truer Eternity” that may exist far above just the Omniversal version we see that seems to be disconnected when reaching the Void as we saw during the first issue of Defenders: Beyond.


For anyone confused, I think this was somewhat answered very ambiguously during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. There was an Enigma to come and that crown was cast upon all over Creation as it was above all things. Well, Eternity knew of it as well as the One Above All who is just a representation of a magnitude of higher beings that are creators as well. This is mentioned when Blue Marvel questions what creates “Creation” which includes the House of Ideas and the form of the One Above All at that level. This would mean that Eternity and the Marvel Multiverse is far larger than just simply existing in the “World of Action” since the “World of Creation” as we see it contains even the crown of “Creation.” Where everything is connected in a hierarchical system hence why Al Ewing reaffirms the idea that Yggdrasil is akin to the Tree of Life in Kabbalah which also contains the Keter or the House of Ideas.

This brings me to my next idea. In the Doctor Strange series called Fall Sunrise. It was mentioned there was nothing which was “all” then a division happened, a sort of Dyad. From the perfect formless nothing became dualistic in two parts: Bythos and Sophia. This represents the very nature of that perfection in a realm of pure and perfect ideas while Sophia represents the opposite end which is the Realm of Shapes which both encompasses the notion of what was “All that Is” as it is now.

It was explained that Bythos is the realm of pure ideas and that nothing becomes everything. In trying to perceive him do we see Sophia and the Realm of Shapes which is just a shadow reflection of the Realm of Ideas. Sophia is literally “All That Is” which is also Bythos who is “All That Is” because their separation caused division, but they are the original existence of the “nothing” that was all “infinity” which is the “One” thing which is a reference to the One from Gnostics which the story is heavily centered around.

There are some things that the story gets wrong about the Gnostic aspect and are mixed around with older elements like Platonism, Neo-Platonism, and whatnot. For example, it was heavily notion that the Demiurge is the creator of the material world(world of shape) using the ideas of the pure and divine realm(world of ideas) while Sophia herself being an Aeon birthing this monster Creator-diety as oppose to the story treating Sophia as the mother of the Aeons. This is rather important because it establishes that the entirety of Creation as I put above is purely just a reflection of the pure and eternal realm of ideas. This means that the difference is in transcendence between Earth 616 Universe to Multiversal Eternity with the One Above All and the whole of Creation is in turn High 1-A for Byhtos and the realm of ideas.
 
I will note some very important things with the structure of the Marvel Multiverse for a possible High 1-A rating.

This involves a unique story called Doctor Strange: Fall Sunrise and a bit of Immortal Thor. See in the Immortal Thor series when we see Toranos and Thor fighting there are things to not gloss over. It was mentioned the Yawning Void or Ginnungagap was mentioned to be the furthest shores of Eternity which would just refer to the Far Shore. This is established earlier in the Ultimates series when the Shaper of Worlds fell into Oblivion, he sawed what lay beyond supposedly the “Multiverse.” That's changed and my theory is that the Land we see in both Defenders: Beyond and Silver Surfer run which includes the Never Queen is still part of Eternity as one of three facets of the faces of existence. This would explain Al Ewing's intention both on his Twitter statement that the Far Shore is part of Eternity as well as Immortal Thor describing it to be so.

Yes, I know you may be confused since the Ultimates series and Defenders: Beyond seemed to imply it exists outside of Eternity. However, that's the thing that was rectified during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. The entirety of hierarchical cosmology is based on the fact that everything emanates from the Unknowable through the Four Worlds. Eternity represents the whole of existence in the sense that he also holds the hierarchy we see which includes the crown of Creation which is about the House of Ideas. This puts in question whether Eternity or Yggdrasil is meant to encompass the whole of existence. That's honestly hard to answer, but I think that everything is a structural part of one accord within some sort of “truer Eternity” that may exist far above just the Omniversal version we see that seems to be disconnected when reaching the Void as we saw during the first issue of Defenders: Beyond.


For anyone confused, I think this was somewhat answered very ambiguously during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. There was an Enigma to come and that crown was cast upon all over Creation as it was above all things. Well, Eternity knew of it as well as the One Above All who is just a representation of a magnitude of higher beings that are creators as well. This is mentioned when Blue Marvel questions what creates “Creation” which includes the House of Ideas and the form of the One Above All at that level. This would mean that Eternity and the Marvel Multiverse is far larger than just simply existing in the “World of Action” since the “World of Creation” as we see it contains even the crown of “Creation.” Where everything is connected in a hierarchical system hence why Al Ewing reaffirms the idea that Yggdrasil is akin to the Tree of Life in Kabbalah which also contains the Keter or the House of Ideas.

This brings me to my next idea. In the Doctor Strange series called Fall Sunrise. It was mentioned there was nothing which was “all” then a division happened, a sort of Dyad. From the perfect formless nothing became dualistic in two parts: Bythos and Sophia. This represents the very nature of that perfection in a realm of pure and perfect ideas while Sophia represents the opposite end which is the Realm of Shapes which both encompasses the notion of what was “All that Is” as it is now.

It was explained that Bythos is the realm of pure ideas and that nothing becomes everything. In trying to perceive him do we see Sophia and the Realm of Shapes which is just a shadow reflection of the Realm of Ideas. Sophia is literally “All That Is” which is also Bythos who is “All That Is” because their separation caused division, but they are the original existence of the “nothing” that was all “infinity” which is the “One” thing which is a reference to the One from Gnostics which the story is heavily centered around.

There are some things that the story gets wrong about the Gnostic aspect and are mixed around with older elements like Platonism, Neo-Platonism, and whatnot. For example, it was heavily notion that the Demiurge is the creator of the material world(world of shape) using the ideas of the pure and divine realm(world of ideas) while Sophia herself being an Aeon birthing this monster Creator-diety as oppose to the story treating Sophia as the mother of the Aeons. This is rather important because it establishes that the entirety of Creation as I put above is purely just a reflection of the pure and eternal realm of ideas. This means that the difference is in transcendence between Earth 616 Universe to Multiversal Eternity with the One Above All and the whole of Creation is in turn High 1-A for Byhtos and the realm of ideas.
@Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @Excellence616 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack

Your input would be appreciated here. 🙏
 
I will note some very important things with the structure of the Marvel Multiverse for a possible High 1-A rating.

This involves a unique story called Doctor Strange: Fall Sunrise and a bit of Immortal Thor. See in the Immortal Thor series when we see Toranos and Thor fighting there are things to not gloss over. It was mentioned the Yawning Void or Ginnungagap was mentioned to be the furthest shores of Eternity which would just refer to the Far Shore. This is established earlier in the Ultimates series when the Shaper of Worlds fell into Oblivion, he sawed what lay beyond supposedly the “Multiverse.” That's changed and my theory is that the Land we see in both Defenders: Beyond and Silver Surfer run which includes the Never Queen is still part of Eternity as one of three facets of the faces of existence. This would explain Al Ewing's intention both on his Twitter statement that the Far Shore is part of Eternity as well as Immortal Thor describing it to be so.

Yes, I know you may be confused since the Ultimates series and Defenders: Beyond seemed to imply it exists outside of Eternity. However, that's the thing that was rectified during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. The entirety of hierarchical cosmology is based on the fact that everything emanates from the Unknowable through the Four Worlds. Eternity represents the whole of existence in the sense that he also holds the hierarchy we see which includes the crown of Creation which is about the House of Ideas. This puts in question whether Eternity or Yggdrasil is meant to encompass the whole of existence. That's honestly hard to answer, but I think that everything is a structural part of one accord within some sort of “truer Eternity” that may exist far above just the Omniversal version we see that seems to be disconnected when reaching the Void as we saw during the first issue of Defenders: Beyond.


For anyone confused, I think this was somewhat answered very ambiguously during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. There was an Enigma to come and that crown was cast upon all over Creation as it was above all things. Well, Eternity knew of it as well as the One Above All who is just a representation of a magnitude of higher beings that are creators as well. This is mentioned when Blue Marvel questions what creates “Creation” which includes the House of Ideas and the form of the One Above All at that level. This would mean that Eternity and the Marvel Multiverse is far larger than just simply existing in the “World of Action” since the “World of Creation” as we see it contains even the crown of “Creation.” Where everything is connected in a hierarchical system hence why Al Ewing reaffirms the idea that Yggdrasil is akin to the Tree of Life in Kabbalah which also contains the Keter or the House of Ideas.

This brings me to my next idea. In the Doctor Strange series called Fall Sunrise. It was mentioned there was nothing which was “all” then a division happened, a sort of Dyad. From the perfect formless nothing became dualistic in two parts: Bythos and Sophia. This represents the very nature of that perfection in a realm of pure and perfect ideas while Sophia represents the opposite end which is the Realm of Shapes which both encompasses the notion of what was “All that Is” as it is now.

It was explained that Bythos is the realm of pure ideas and that nothing becomes everything. In trying to perceive him do we see Sophia and the Realm of Shapes which is just a shadow reflection of the Realm of Ideas. Sophia is literally “All That Is” which is also Bythos who is “All That Is” because their separation caused division, but they are the original existence of the “nothing” that was all “infinity” which is the “One” thing which is a reference to the One from Gnostics which the story is heavily centered around.

There are some things that the story gets wrong about the Gnostic aspect and are mixed around with older elements like Platonism, Neo-Platonism, and whatnot. For example, it was heavily notion that the Demiurge is the creator of the material world(world of shape) using the ideas of the pure and divine realm(world of ideas) while Sophia herself being an Aeon birthing this monster Creator-diety as oppose to the story treating Sophia as the mother of the Aeons. This is rather important because it establishes that the entirety of Creation as I put above is purely just a reflection of the pure and eternal realm of ideas. This means that the difference is in transcendence between Earth 616 Universe to Multiversal Eternity with the One Above All and the whole of Creation is in turn High 1-A for Byhtos and the realm of ideas.
Looks good (though I'm not an expert on Platoism), but does this affect Multiverse Eternity?
 
Looks good (though I'm not an expert on Platoism), but does this affect Multiverse Eternity?
It doesn't. The entire notion of a Creational being that encompasses the entire structure goes far beyond Multiversal Eternity.

In the same vein the One Above All represents the Creator figure that emanates has energy down to the lower sphere and runs them. The Eternity that encompasses the structure of the entire Four-World Cosmology would be a bigger facet of existence which is not yet seen by anything. Like the One Above All, the Eternity we see may be our limit of understanding, and that being may be something else entirely. So it would need an entirely different key.

I'm not fully against it, but Eternity scaling above the One Above All really sounds weird.
 
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It doesn't. The entire notion of a Creational being that encompasses the entire structure goes far beyond Multiversal Eternity.

In the same vein the One Above All represents the Creator figure that emanates has energy down to the lower sphere and runs them. The Eternity that encompasses the structure of the entire Four-World Cosmology would be a bigger facet of existence which is not yet seen by anything. Like the One Above All, the Eternity we see may be out limit of understanding, and that being may be something else entirely. So it would need an entirely different key.

I'm not fully against it, but Eternity scaling above the One Above All really sounds weird.
Only TOAA High1-A Scale in OP?
 
Only TOAA High1-A Scale in OP?
Heck, it may downgrade him, but I will keep High 1-A. This just means Bythos and Sophia at the very least the former would be High 1-A. Both would be higher than the One Above All alongside Eternity's new key.

I have this weird understanding of the narratives that are not usually caught by people. I mean I get very specific in the details because I relook at them hard for an explanation and it clicks on my head why it was written that way.
 
It doesn't. The entire notion of a Creational being that encompasses the entire structure goes far beyond Multiversal Eternity.

In the same vein the One Above All represents the Creator figure that emanates has energy down to the lower sphere and runs them. The Eternity that encompasses the structure of the entire Four-World Cosmology would be a bigger facet of existence which is not yet seen by anything. Like the One Above All, the Eternity we see may be our limit of understanding, and that being may be something else entirely. So it would need an entirely different key.

I'm not fully against it, but Eternity scaling above the One Above All really sounds weird.
It seems too speculative for my tastes. Let's not enter unofficial fanon concept territory, like we did with "The Writer", please. 🙏
 
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It seems too speculative for my tastes. Let's not enter unofficial fanon concept territory, like we did with "The Writer", please. 🙏
It's not at all speculative other than what to name a key for Eternity. I've provided the evidence for it as seen in Yggdrasil’s highest point containing the Crown and the furthest shores of Eternity being the Far Shore which is often depicted as being part of the Outside in the Mystery.

We've seen the Pligrim/Never Queen mention that the journey of the Mystery is her goal and to find the core of “Creation.” It’s quite clear that the other hierarchy which is interconnected through the Four Worlds is encompassed by a sort of Eternity in the same way that Multiverse Eternity encompasses Malkuth/Negative Zone as its edge and is simply one of three faces of existence alongside the Never Queen and the Griever. Quite clear Multiverse Eternity is part of it hence why during the war of existence in the Ultimates series Eternity existed in the far shore alongside the other Firmanents yet is stated to contain it as well which means he is a facet of the totality of all existence which is the Four World in this case. This is unsurprising since the Defenders saw the One Above All draw the entire map because he is the limit of understanding in the hierarchy, but represents an endless ladder of beings of the same nature just on a higher caliber in a different hierarchy.

So, my point is Eternity should get a key something called “True Eternity” that encompasses the very least the whole of the Assiyah hierarchy, but I think it should extend to the entire cosmological map. If not we can create an Eternity key for each world; the World of Action, the World of Creation, and the World of Emanation, but that's too much. Just a key of Eternity where Multiversal is simply a facet of it.
 
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I agree with the part of your interpretation that states that "The One Above All" was clearly stated to simply be the highest peak of understanding in the metaphysical hierarchy as it relates to Marvel Comics, as it is the end to "the world of action", which is the entire point of Marvel Comics. I simply have a problem with you inventing an extremely unofficial interpretation that everything beyond TOAA, i.e. the true completely abstract Marvel Comics God, is really just a higher form of Eternity.

I do not accept that approach. My apologies. 🙏
 
I agree with the part of your interpretation that states that "The One Above All" was clearly stated to simply be the highest peak of understanding in the metaphysical hierarchy as it relates to Marvel Comics, as it is the end to "the world of action", which is the entire point of Marvel Comics. I simply have a problem with you inventing an extremely unofficial interpretation that everything beyond TOAA, i.e. the true completely abstract Marvel Comics God, is really just a higher form of Eternity.

I do not accept that approach. My apologies. 🙏
I did not say that. I said the entirety of existence as in the Four Worlds or at the very least one of the hierarchy is encompassed by Eternity which I have provided the evidence for. I never claimed Eternity is God and I have more concrete example of Eternity representing existence on that scale. The Unknowable/Ein Sof/God is a different matter, I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
 
I agree with the part of your interpretation that states that "The One Above All" was clearly stated to simply be the highest peak of understanding in the metaphysical hierarchy as it relates to Marvel Comics, as it is the end to "the world of action", which is the entire point of Marvel Comics. I simply have a problem with you inventing an extremely unofficial interpretation that everything beyond TOAA, i.e. the true completely abstract Marvel Comics God, is really just a higher form of Eternity.

I do not accept that approach. My apologies. 🙏
I advise you to read what I said above. I will also list the next reasoning here.

We know that the Four Worlds structure is based on the Adam Qadmon who is the blueprint of Creation where his essence is what gave life from God’s divine energy. This is made clear when the One Above All legit mentions where Adam Brashear was when he laid this foundation which is just referring to Blue Marvel as a representation of the primordial man as he literally calls him that name.(Defenders: Beyond Vol.1 #5) So, Adam Kadmon clearly is being put as the blueprint for all things given that he predates those creatures of pre-creation which goes well with their history of Marvel reusing those old monster creatures, but also seems to be very old creatures as well.

This also is important since Eternity who is beyond Death is Adam of the same name which goes well since from him was the worlds shaped. Eternity fits the stick better because he is primordial and he encompasses all things. (Doctor Strange Vol.2 #16)

You can certainly disagree about my stance, but these evidences are undeniable and I am not making some of it up. Not to mention “God” is stated to be above him and I never made the stance that Eternity was God.
 
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