The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

[Xearsay]

The Divine Presence isn't of Heaven, he's omnipresent. He's not the "opposite of the Devil." There's no evidence he can't destroy blight aside from Blight's unproven assumptions. Stranger seems to think otherwise, regardless.

However, this fact was already agreed upon in the last thread.

He is the God of Heaven. He’s directly called the Heavenly master. Second, he’s not fully omnipresent, he can maybe chose which beings and things within his creation he wants to speak through, which I doubt would extend to devil figures within the story like Trigon and definitely wouldn’t extend to the beings within the Collective Unconscious and beyond. And I say maybe, because the Presence lied about being all knowing in the same sentence where he claimed he was. Which makes it very hard to trust the Presences statements about his own capabilities.

Also the Phantom Stranger says that the Presence can simply “drive Blight back. Drive all of evil out of the world.” Which is not the same as saying he can destroy Blight.

 

[Deagonx]

which I doubt would extend to devil figures within the story like Trigon

He literally said that he is in Trigon's own corrupted heart.

However, I will not respond any further to this attempt to revise the DeMatteis cosmology. It was already approved and isn't currently subject to revision.

 

[PrinceStories]

I see a lot of people want to change the Dematteis hierarchy cosmology on the Blog but this thread was made only to change the existing tiers in the blog not to change the Dematteis hierarchy cosmology, so if you want to change the Dematteis hierarchy then wait for this thread to finish then wait for the 4th part of this thread or not make yours own thread about Dematteis hierarchy cosmology.

 

[Deagonx]

This is the final portion of the cosmology project. So indeed they will have to wait until we are done here (and likely some time after that based on a forthcoming rule about how long before an issue can be re-addressed), and attempt to make a revision then if they feel strongly enough about it. But in any case, this is not the thread for it.

 

[Xearsay]

I see a lot of people want to change the Dematteis hierarchy cosmology on the Blog but this thread was made only to change the existing tiers in the blog not to change the Dematteis hierarchy cosmology, so if you want to change the Dematteis hierarchy then wait for this thread to finish then wait for the 4th part of this thread or not make yours own thread about Dematteis hierarchy cosmology.

Sure but the even then the tier of the Divine Presence is still wrong. As he‘s not above the Collective Unconscious which is currently rated at low 1-C. So the Divine Presence should be low 1-C.

Also the Voids rating is weird.

• Mahapralaya/Pralaya is the Void of infinite nothingness that predates the infinite-layered Creation and is the source from which all things emerged and will return, making her Low 1-A.

I don’t really see how predating and being the source of a high 1-B hierarchy makes one transcendent to it. So there needs to be a better justification or this needs to be downgraded to High 1-B.

Lastly the Smiles rating is also weird.

• The Divine Presence is 1-A as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya completely and are merely part of its dream.

The hierarchy itself is already built on deeper and truer dreams so adding another dream on top wouldn’t make the Smile transcend the entire high 1-B hierarchy. Which actually makes sense, as the souls journey from lifetime to lifetime through the afterlife will make the soul one with the Smile. So the Smile should also be High 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Since Dr3amcaster is a previously inactive single-issue account that began to systematically hijack this very important thread without any higher level staff approval immediately after Transcending and Beyond_transcending were permanently banned from our community, I deleted their posts in thread and prevented them from commenting further here.

Anyway, what do you think that we should do here, @Deagonx , @Elizio33 , and all other members of our project group?

 

[PrinceofPein]

For now we can skip the void's rating and move on to other parts in which people have contention.

 

[PrinceStories]

Anyway, what do you think that we should do here, @Deagonx , @Elizio33 , and all other members of our project group?

maybe now waiting for the response of the other staff regarding the Tier in the blog

 

[LuciferX]

For now we can skip the void's rating and move on to other parts in which people have contention.

Only void's rating and Dematteis cosmology are questionable here, Morrison's and Synder's Cosmologies were concluded so far now. What else there to discuss about?

 

[Elizio33]

Can someone summarize everything that was agreed on this crt?

 

[Robo432343]

who is the guy that made 1-A void

 

[Elizio33]

Another topic. How we should tier the God of every cosmology? Still 1-A or lower? On Morrison/Snyder's cosmology, is "At least 2-C" for the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious appropriate?

 

[LuciferX]

Another topic. How we should tier the God of every cosmology? Still 1-A or lower? On Morrison/Snyder's cosmology, is "At least 2-C" for the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious appropriate?

God would be either Low 1-C or 1C imo. Didn't Morrison/Synder's Cosmology conclude to Low 1-C tier?

 

[Elizio33]

Didn't Morrison/Synder's Cosmology conclude to Low 1-C tier?

It has been accepted that the Monitor Sphere, the Fifth Dimension and the Sixth Dimension are Low 1-C but what about the Sphere of the Gods? With the materials we have from Morrison's Final Crisis and Multiversity and Scott Snyder's stories, there is not enough evidence to support that the Sphere of the Gods infinitely transcends the four-dimensional spatiotemporal multiverse. The rest of the tiers from this cosmology are fine.

 

[LuciferX]

It has been accepted that the Monitor Sphere, the Fifth Dimension and the Sixth Dimension are Low 1-C but what about the Sphere of the Gods? With the materials we have from Morrison's Final Crisis and Multiversity and Scott Snyder's stories, there is not enough evidence to support that the Sphere of the Gods infinitely transcends the four-dimensional spatiotemporal multiverse. The rest of the tiers from this cosmology are fine.

Yeah, oftenly described as a four dimensional realm, 2-C seems fine. Low 1-C rating need to be removed. Being a higher plane just mean its position in cosmology.

 

[Elizio33]

Only the realms cited above qualify for the Low 1-C tier but not the Sphere of the Gods. The Unseen Council like The Hands should be At least Low 1-C or 1-C. The Source/Overvoid/Presence should be 1-C.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly trust Elizio33's senze of judgement regarding how we should tier this cosmology.

 

[Xearsay]

Another topic. How we should tier the God of every cosmology? Still 1-A or lower? On Morrison/Snyder's cosmology, is "At least 2-C" for the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious appropriate?

I kind of brought this up earlier.

Vertigo Void: Low 1-C. For dwarfing creation which is tier 2.

The Smile: High 1-B. For being at the peak of the hierarchy.

The Overvoid can remain 1-A.

Also, wasn’t the Godsphere supposed to be qualitatively superior to the Multiverse? From a higher kind of archetypal reality, a mere shadow emanating from one of the platonic forms/New Gods was equal in size to the entire Orrery of Worlds. New Gods also define the lower Multiverses form and meaning due to them representing absolute meaning and ultimate being.

 

[Deagonx]

Also, wasn’t the Godsphere supposed to be qualitatively superior to the Multiverse? From a higher kind of archetypal reality, a mere shadow emanating from one of the platonic forms/New Gods was equal in size to the entire Orrery of Worlds. New Gods also define the lower Multiverses form and meaning due to them representing absolute meaning and ultimate being.

The Sphere of the Gods is already listed as qualitatively superior to the Orrery in the blog. As to the claims you made that aren't currently in the blog, that was a Part 2 conversation, and isn't relevant here.

As seen above, the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious above it exist on a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds, having 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, which means that the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious are Low 1-C structures.

Vertigo Void: Low 1-C. For dwarfing creation which is tier 2.

The Smile: High 1-B. For being at the peak of the hierarchy.

The Overvoid can remain 1-A.

As for this, I think the ratings in the current blog are much more accurate. If the staff disagree, however, we can go with whatever the staff majority thinks. The arguments for downgrading Vertigo Void and the Divine Presence from DeMatties apply just as much to the Overvoid, so if that is the case we should go with Elizio's new suggestion.

 

[Antvasima]

I just want to mention that I have a much better impression of Xearsay as a contributor to this community after seeing his conduct in this thread. There is a massive distinction between having differences of opinion and actually being insincere and malicious.

 

[Deagonx]

I didn't get that at all on the second page, to be honest. He was being rather snarky and starting issues for no reason. Though I agree he toned it down later on, which is good. But I strongly get the impression that his main goal in this thread is to find a way to place Morrison and the Overvoid above everything else, if he can, and to undermine the Presence as much as possible.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am just saying that he just seems to politely disagree with us in some respects. He does not seem insincere and two-faced.

 

[Elizio33]

I kind of brought this up earlier.

Vertigo Void: Low 1-C. For dwarfing creation which is tier 2.

The Smile: High 1-B. For being at the peak of the hierarchy.

The Overvoid can remain 1-A.

Also, wasn’t the Godsphere supposed to be qualitatively superior to the Multiverse? From a higher kind of archetypal reality, a mere shadow emanating from one of the platonic forms/New Gods was equal in size to the entire Orrery of Worlds. New Gods also define the lower Multiverses form and meaning due to them representing absolute meaning and ultimate being.

Well, that sounds good to me, but as @Deagonx said, if we're going to tier Vertigo Void and The Divine Presence to Low 1-C, the Overvoid should get the same treatment. Regarding the Sphere of the Gods, we should wait for other opinions to know if it should be Low 1-C or At least 2-C. But based on what we have from Final Crisis and Multiversity, I don't think that the Sphere of the Gods should be Low 1-C but I may be wrong.

 

[Antvasima]

I still trust Elizio33's sense of judgement regarding these topics.

 

[Xearsay]

if we're going to tier Vertigo Void and The Divine Presence to Low 1-C, the Overvoid should get the same treatment. Regarding the Sphere of the Gods, we should wait for other opinions to know if it should be Low 1-C or At least 2-C. But based on what we have from Final Crisis and Multiversity, I don't think that the Sphere of the Gods should be Low 1-C but I may be wrong.

We can wait for more input on the Godsphere thing.

For the God tiers, I don’t understand why the Void being downgraded to low 1-C, or the Smile being downgraded to High 1-B, would downgrade the Overvoid. They’re all different entities that scale differently to different cosmologies. So they should be treated as individual cases.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

We can wait for more input on the Godsphere thing.

For the God tiers, I don’t understand why the Void being downgraded to low 1-C, or the Smile being downgraded to High 1-B, would downgrade the Overvoid. They’re all different entities that scale differently to different cosmologies. So they should be treated as individual cases.

because the only thing justifying 1A for the overvoid in the blog is just beyond space-time and transduality scans neither is enough proof for 1A

 

[Robo432343]

if there is proof that that the void can fill up infinite dimensions then it would have been 1-A for vertigo

 

[PrinceStories]

if there is proof that that the void can fill up infinite dimensions then it would have been 1-A for vertigo

It seems like the layered context in Lucifer's comic (2000) #75 is useless when used in 1-A scaling the void

 

[Xearsay]

because the only thing justifying 1A for the overvoid in the blog is just beyond space-time and transduality scans neither is enough proof for 1A

Well then the justification needs to be rewritten. This is just something I cooked up really quick. I know it’s not perfect but it should meet the criteria.

Tier: 1-A. Monitor Mind is the state of infinite, eternal abstract awareness without limits or definition, functioning as the pristine independent canvas for which the entire setting is drawn upon. It is where all conceptualizations and concepts are resolved to unity, and everything becomes one with Monitor Mind.

For additional context: Monitor Mind exist independent of the entire setting and it’s possible layerings, as story can spread within Monitor Minds consciousness, forming even higher layers to the Multiverse such as the Monitor Sphere, while still being transcended completely by Monitor Mind. With Monitor Mind standing beyond even the concept of story which conceptualizes the Multiverse and its hierarchy.

 

[Elizio33]

Tier: 1-A. Monitor Mind is the unsurpassable state of infinite, eternal abstract awareness without limits or definition, functioning as the pristine independent canvas for which the entire setting is drawn upon. It is where are all conceptualizations and contradictions are resolved to unity, and everything becomes one with Monitor Mind.

For additional context: Monitor Mind exist independent of the entire setting and it’s possible layerings, as story can spread within Monitor Minds consciousness, forming even higher layers to the Multiverse such as the Monitor Sphere, while still being surpassed by Monitor Mind. With Monitor Mind standing beyond even the concept of story which conceptualizes the Multiverse.

The problem with this is that Grant Morrison's original idea of the Overvoid seems to have been discarded over the years, especially with Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV's stories implying that the void has an end. Here are Perpetua's own words: "Tell your masters I will escape. Tell them I will come to the end of the void and rip them limb from limb." Not to mention the most recent depiction of the Overvoid seen in Joshua Williamson's stories. If we were talking about a cosmology based 100% on the works of Grant Morrison then I would have been fine with the Overvoid being 1-A but with Scott Snyder's interpretation I doubt the Overvoid is still meant to be what Morrison originally wanted the Overvoid to be...

 

[Xearsay]

The problem with this is that Grant Morrison's original idea of the Overvoid seems to have been discarded over the years, especially with Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV's stories implying that the void has an end. Here are Perpetua's own words: "Tell your masters I will escape. Tell them I will come to the end of the void and rip them limb from limb." Not to mention the most recent depiction of the Overvoid seen in Joshua Williamson's stories. If we were talking about a cosmology based 100% on the works of Grant Morrison then I would have been fine with the Overvoid being 1-A but with Scott Snyder's interpretation I doubt the Overvoid is still meant to be what Morrison originally wanted the Overvoid to be...

The Overvoid was barely ever described in Snyder’s work and that description you have about the Void having an end, is literally one of the only times it ever is described. Also I don’t understand how it contradicts anything about the Overvoid being 1-A because if we look at the few other descriptions, the Overvoid is still considered the all consuming impossible Void where the entire setting exist, even within Snyder’s stories.

Also I feel like you’re missing the point of this whole cosmology merge thing. As first you went from saying Morrison’s pre 2000s should be discarded because they didn’t match with Snyder’s, to now trying to disregard something from Morrison’s post 2000s works for the same reason. The point of merging Scott Snyder’s and Morrison’s cosmologies was to take Snyder’s work as an addition to Morrison’s. Not ignore everything related to Morrison in favor of Scott’s work. If you’re just going to try and ignore all of Morrisons material in favor of Snyder’s, then this might as well just be a Scott Snyder/James Tynion cosmology without Morrison.

Also Joshua Williams stories aren’t being taken into account from my understanding due to the completely different interpretation of the cosmology.

 

[Gasper]

The Overvoid was barely ever described in Snyder’s work and that description you have about the Void having an end, is literally one of the only times it ever is described. Also I don’t understand how it contradicts anything about the Overvoid being 1-A because if we look at the few other descriptions, the Overvoid is still considered the all consuming impossible Void where the entire setting exist, even within Snyder’s stories.

Also I feel like you’re missing the point of this whole cosmology merge thing. As first you went from saying Morrison’s pre 2000s were discarded because they didn’t match with Snyder’s, to now trying to disregard something from Morrison’s post 2000s works for the same reason. The point was to merge Scott Snyder’s and Morrison’s cosmologies and take Snyder’s work as addition to Morrison’s. Not ignore everything related to Morrison in favor of Scott’s work.

Also Joshua Williams stories aren’t being taken into account from my understanding due to the completely different interpretation of the cosmology.

Agree with that

 

[LuciferX]

Well, that sounds good to me, but as @Deagonx said, if we're going to tier Vertigo Void and The Divine Presence to Low 1-C, the Overvoid should get the same treatment. Regarding the Sphere of the Gods, we should wait for other opinions to know if it should be Low 1-C or At least 2-C. But based on what we have from Final Crisis and Multiversity, I don't think that the Sphere of the Gods should be Low 1-C but I may be wrong.

This make sense. There is no reason to keep Overvoid as 1A futhermore.

 

[Deagonx]

Tier: 1-A. Monitor Mind is the state of infinite, eternal abstract awareness without limits or definition, functioning as the pristine independent canvas for which the entire setting is drawn upon. It is where all conceptualizations and concepts are resolved to unity, and everything becomes one with Monitor Mind.

This doesn't justify any tier at all. Certainly not 1-A. I'm not even sure how to address it since it doesn't capture any of the criteria for the tier it's arguing for.

the Overvoid is still considered the all consuming impossible Void where the entire setting exist, even within Snyder’s stories.

Once again, this doesn't justify 1-A. It is, at best, a single degree of infinity higher than the omniverse.

 

[Elizio33]

The Overvoid was barely ever described in Snyder’s work and that description you have about the Void having an end, is literally one of the only times it ever is described. Also I don’t understand how it contradicts anything about the Overvoid being 1-A because if we look at the few other descriptions, the Overvoid is still considered the all consuming impossible Void where the entire setting exist, even within Snyder’s stories.

Also I feel like you’re missing the point of this whole cosmology merge thing. As first you went from saying Morrison’s pre 2000s should be discarded because they didn’t match with Snyder’s, to now trying to disregard something from Morrison’s post 2000s works for the same reason. The point of merging Scott Snyder’s and Morrison’s cosmologies was to take Snyder’s work as an addition to Morrison’s. Not ignore everything related to Morrison in favor of Scott’s work. If you’re just going to try and ignore all of Morrisons material in favor of Snyder’s, then this might as well just be a Scott Snyder/James Tynion cosmology without Morrison.

Also Joshua Williams stories aren’t being taken into account from my understanding due to the completely different interpretation of the cosmology.

I was more talking about Morrison's description of the Overvoid in his interview than anything else, like the blank page of the comic, non-dual, paper vs ink, etc. These claims weren't even mentioned in the comics and were discarded over the years. Of course, Scott Snyder's works are an addition to Morrison's, but it's pretty clear that Morrison had a different take on the Overvoid than Scott Snyder and Joshua Williamson, while that one isn't relevant here, it's still a good example of what I'm saying. It's a retcon, like the origin of the Monitors, they were also retconned during the Scott Snyder's era to be aspects of Mar Novu rather than "angels" made by Monitor-Mind The Overvoid. The same goes for the Overvoid. As I said above, if we were talking about a cosmology based 100% on the works of Grant Morrison, then I would have been fine with the Overvoid being 1-A, but it's not the case.

Anyway, it's not relevant here because it's already been discussed in previous threads.

 

[Xearsay]

I was more talking about Morrison's description of the Overvoid in his interview than anything else, like the blank page of the comic, non-dual, paper vs ink, etc. These claims weren't even mentioned in the comics and were discarded over the years. Of course, Scott Snyder's works are an addition to Morrison's, but it's pretty clear that Morrison had a different take on the Overvoid than Scott Snyder and Joshua Williamson, while that one isn't relevant here, it's still a good example of what I'm saying. It's a retcon, like the origin of the Monitors, they were also retconned during the Scott Snyder's era to be aspects of Mar Novu rather than "angels" made by Monitor-Mind The Overvoid. The same goes for the Overvoid. As I said above, if we were talking about a cosmology based 100% on the works of Grant Morrison, then I would have been fine with the Overvoid being 1-A, but it's not the case.

Anyway, it's not relevant here because it's already been discussed in previous threads.

The Overvoid being non dual thing was supported by the comics and the Overvoid being the independent canvas for the setting is supported by the comics as well.

Also your only evidence that Morrison’s interpretation was discarded and that Snyder had a different interpretation of the Overvoid, comes from a single statement about the Overvoid having an end, which as I already pointed out, doesn’t refute the Overvoid being the independent canvas for the setting because even in Snyder and Tynions work they’ve acknowledged the Overvoid as the all consuming Void which the setting exists upon.

So as of right now, you don’t have any evidence the Overvoid was retconned by Snyder at all. And until you get some these claims will remain baseless.

 

[Deagonx]

The Overvoid being non dual thing was supported by the comics and the Overvoid being the independent canvas for the setting is supported by the comics as well.

Where, and how? Of the single digit number of comics that contain meaningful info about the Overvoid, I do not recall anything like this.

So as of right now, you don’t have any evidence the Overvoid was retconned by Snyder at all. And until you get some these claims will remain baseless.

It doesn't really matter, you haven't justified your argument for Tier 1. You just posted a bunch of word salad and left the "how is this 1-A" part purely to the reader's imagination.

 

[Elizio33]

The Overvoid being non dual thing was supported by the comics and the Overvoid being the independent canvas for the setting is supported by the comics as well.

Also your only evidence that Morrison’s interpretation was discarded and that Snyder had a different interpretation of the Overvoid, comes from a single statement about the Overvoid having an end, which as I already pointed out, doesn’t refute the Overvoid being the independent canvas for the setting because even in Snyder and Tynions work they’ve acknowledged the Overvoid as the all consuming Void which the setting exists upon.

So as of right now, you don’t have any evidence the Overvoid was retconned by Snyder at all. And until you get some these claims will remain baseless.

I don't remember anything from the comics supporting his claims.

Another piece of evidence is that Alpheus said that Mar Novu looked beyond the void. These are Alpheus' own words: "You have peered beyond the void. You have seen other Multiverses..." Whether it was a way of speaking or not, Perpetua's claims that the void has an end already dismisses Morrison's original idea of the Overvoid. Nothing is meant to be beyond the Overvoid and having an end shouldn't make sense in Morrison's idea of the Overvoid. According to Morrison, the Overvoid is meant to be the infinite, eternal, non-dual void where all dissolves into unity. Now, Scott Snyder said that the Overvoid is finite since it has an end. Anyway, it doesn't really matter now.

 

[Deagonx]

Also the fact that the Monitor Brothers were made from pieces of the void heavily calls into question the level of which it transcends the Sixth Dimension at all. All indications are that the Overvoid is relatively easily traversed by the Hands and agents of the Source.

 

[Elizio33]

A third piece of evidence supporting that the Overvoid has been retconned during Scott Snyder's era is that cosmic beings such as Chronicler and The Hands can exists in the Overvoid. Here's what the narration says: "Few notice the surge of alien energy that rips through the fabric of space-time, not from the Bleed, but from the Overvoid." These are Wally West's words: "Throughout the Void, beings like Perpetua are tasked with starting Multiverses." According to Morrison's idea of the Overvoid, nothing can survive in the Overvoid because anyone falling into the Overvoid will cease to be, even the idea of that being would be lost and forgotten. We saw this when Mandrakk fell into the Overvoid and was obliterated.

It's a just a retcon. It happens sometimes.