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So are we waiting for new key for characters or what
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Marvel Comics Cosmology (World Hierarchy) Revision
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No. That will be handled elsewhere. This thread is meant for the tiering of the current profiles and keys.
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@Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @LuciferX @Excellence616 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @StarterPack
Are you willing to help out here please?
Are you willing to help out here please?
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What needs to be done here exactly?
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Essentially, remove High 1-A from everyone but the One Above All.
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Even the WHR is losing it?
And I assume no one is getting 1-A+?
Also, will the cosmology page be changed to list all the new layers of 1-A?
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Yeah. The Dominion wonky scaling may give High 1-A to Phoenix. Only problem is the Power of X is so weak in treating the Enigma and they barely go into the Dominion races which was beyond the Beyonders. So one extra layer for them and Phoenix. Phoenix story is promising, but, hasn't given us much. The Storm series I don't think would either. The Land could be High 1-A, if anyone truly scales to both the impossible and possible of it, but, so far no one besides the One Above All scales to it.
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Since you're talking about this, does that mean Enigma will get High 1-A too? Isn't there a problem with the whole "he needs to make his birth happens due to causality" or whatever?
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- #49
Exactly why the One Above All is the only candidate for said tier.
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What is your opinion about the Mother of Horrors, then?
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I simply think she would be treated as some sort of anthesis between her and the One Above All. A sort of “God and Devil” sort of ordeal where they are opposite, but the One Above All is more powerful.
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Just so I understand, you mean she'll be some sort of 1-A still and not High 1-A, right?
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I don't want to harp on this, but it's not actually a problem.
Dominions are weakened, semi-linear and vulnerable outside of Overspace. Despite the white background, Enigma's battle with Jean occurred inside multiversal space-time.
Enigma was confined to 616's timeline and Moira's timelines due to The Beyonders tech.
Jean was using the power of any and every possible Mutant who could ever exist, which is a big deal in the Enigma storyline.
Also, I have a sandbox for Enigma.
That's really all I'll say on this matter.
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We should wait. This thread would probably be ongoing for a while. Things are bound to pop up.
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Yes, and that's not High 1-A…..
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Okay my bad, I'm just curious
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If you're referring to the Overspace ratings, I made it before I knew this revision was a thing.
Edit: It's changed now.
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I personally think that this revision makes good sense, but we need input from more staff members.I think that VeryGoofyToddler seems to make sense here, but I am not the best person to ask.
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Why is that so?
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@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @Deagonx @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_PackI personally think that this revision makes good sense, but we need input from more staff members.
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The quality of transcendence outside of the One Above All are all within the same framework.
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OP looks good.
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I apologize but shouldn't the OP note that the outside Realms excluding the House of Ideas will also lose their High 1-A?
And will the 1-A layers look like this:
- Baseline: Astral Plane/Abstracts
- 1 layer: True Universal Abstracts
- 2 layers: Multiversal stuff
- 3 Layers: Beyonders/WHR/Lands of Couldn't Be and Can Be
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Yeah, since there's no further objection. I'll change it to that.
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I Don't AgreeThis was a long time coming and because of that I decided to move quickly with the changes. So, previously, established in this thread:
J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)
As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their...vsbattles.com
So the main jist is to remove scans pertaining to the author “J.M. DeMatteis” and his more personal view of the Cosmology.
Changes and Removal:
The changes will be a bit radical but then again it's all fair and game. Subspace will keep its tiering as High 1-B. All dimensionality higher will be High 1-B+. That's where we get to the Abstracts.
Abstract:
Since a recent revision pivots the Astral Plane as 1-A, it will remain 1-A. Meaning the Abstarct Universal True Forms remains a layer above baseline.
Omniverse:
The changes to the Omniverse will adhere to just staying 1-A since we will not be using the dreams within dreams where reality is not real to the higher realms. Although, there's some interesting keys to it, the best for the Omniverse at the higher end is 1-A+. Which all the differences within worlds are in the same hierarchy and not a different one. So, the Multiversal/Omniversal form of the Abstracts will be reduced to 1-A.
The Outside:
The Outside realms will all be reduced 1-A. However, the main difference is that each higher realms does not share the same relation of transcendence in the new wiki. So, the Far Shore, and the Beyond will just remain three layer. The White Hot Room, Couldn’t-Be-Shouldn’t-Be/Could-Be-Shall-Be, and the House of Idea will be an additional layer. The only realm and character to get High 1-A will be the One Above All and the House of Ideas.
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Good.
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You're going to need to prove otherwise then.
Uh Goofy that... wasn't really called for.
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Maybe a dumb question (I'm not too knowledgeable on the specifics of how 1-A works on the wiki), but are layers something that can be added to profiles? Like on a lot of profiles we list the value 3-D characters scale to, and for Tier 1 characters several profiles have the dimensionality listed. Could we add a note to each profile saying how many layers into 1-A they are in the same way?
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Okay. No problem.
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That seems like a good idea, at least in this case.
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Sure and it seems like a good idea, as Ant said.
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What about Beyonder's last key?
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Normally it would probably still be High 1-A, if a comparatively hack writer had not almost immediately casually retconned a part of Al Ewing's awesome cosmology work, including not letting The Beyonder free from all of his many horribly written and conceptualised retcon storylines, via the absolutely awful "Avengers Beyond" storyline.
Then again, given the unique thematic setup of Beyonder exiting and transcending the narrative itself in Al Ewing's Defenders storyline, it can easily be reasoned that the true Beyonder was not affected at all by Avengers Beyond.
Then again, given the unique thematic setup of Beyonder exiting and transcending the narrative itself in Al Ewing's Defenders storyline, it can easily be reasoned that the true Beyonder was not affected at all by Avengers Beyond.
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I’ve already talked with Derek Landy about it and he said nothing he wrote was meant to retcon Defenders: Beyond. That all he said was he added an extra point to the origin of the Beyonders.
With that being said, we don't really get any indication or implication of what the Beyonder did. It’s very lacking and all we can presume is he went somewhere else on his own accord. I don’t find the justification strong enough to say he transcended the House of Ideas narrative even then we don’t get anything besides that.
With that being said, we don't really get any indication or implication of what the Beyonder did. It’s very lacking and all we can presume is he went somewhere else on his own accord. I don’t find the justification strong enough to say he transcended the House of Ideas narrative even then we don’t get anything besides that.
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Considering the sheer enormous literary achievement of Al Ewing in managing to extremely creatively, elaborately, and imaginatively logically tie together most of Marvel's cosmological history and loose ends from half-explained old stories in ways that made enormously better sense than previously, I found what Derek did extremely wantonly destructive and disrespectful shoddy work. It completely messed up both the concept of the Beyonders and the setup Al Ewing created for The Beyonder breaking free of the narrative itself.
Well, it certainly seemed like The Beyonder literally broke free from the narrative and ascended after that. Derek's story with his idiotic and pointless forgettable new character messed up the continuity and just seemed like an act of petty sadistic hatred against The Beyonder character after his story had finally been successfully concluded through many halfbaked disrespecful retcons for the last 37 years or so.
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Considering that Engima was in the writing before Defenders: Beyond #5 with the Power of X storyline. It goes to show a lot of these things are thrown in the ballpark of what one author intended as opposed to another.
In the case of Avengers: Beyond. It's meant to be read before Defenders: Beyond(The events seemingly take place before Al Ewing runs with the roster he had). Yeah, it's telling of the Beyonder's origin is wonky, but there's always going to be some sort of extra writing that seems like it's out the narrative of the previous story.
Al Ewing did reinstate that Pre-Retcon was meant to just be a child which he went off Hickman route back in New Avengers when they called it a “child-unit.” Landy didn't really dismantle that since Ewing’s story is with a different roster at a different time as opposed to Landy whose story had an old version of the roster he worked with unless that was intentional.
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