@Transcending and @Beyond_Transcending said:
So I saw an argument between Xearsay and Deagon, and before getting into the blog post itself, I would like to talk about that. The four dimensions mentioned by Mr. Mxyzptlk cannot be referring to spatio-temporal ones. The blog already mentions how Scott Snyder stated his dimensions weren’t spatio-temporal, but it states that Scott was just referring to the fifth and sixth dimensions. Now, Scott in Twitter once did say his dimensions weren’t physics-based, and in another interview said his sixth wasn’t, but there’s something else he acknowledged in that interview that most people missed-
Tyler here says that DC stated before that it has countless physics-based dimensions. This was part of his reasoning as to thinking the Sixth Dimension wasn't spatio-temporal. Scott now, instead of countering it, confirmed it by saying “yes”. This is definite proof that Snyder’s 4 dimensions are not spatio-temporal . Snyder instead confirmed that his Cosmology has innumerable physics-based dimensions, rather than a mere 4, and acknowledged DC referencing innumerable dimensions as one of the reasons for his 6D not being spatio-temporal(further proof the statement applies to him, and not just to whatever writer initially mentioned the concept). Moreover, how Mxy described the 4 dimensions is different from how they are in physics, for example, he said the first dimension is a point while in actuality, a point is the 0th dimension. And when Mxy said “time”, that’s likely a reference to the timestream, which does exist beyond the universes. Also, if the first 4 dimensions were stated in an explicit way by Mxy to be spatio-temporal, why aren't they considered so in the original proposal?
I will also add that I do not believe the 5th dimension stretches as high as the Source Wall. DC stated in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2 that the Monitor Sphere is beyond imagination-
https://www.dc.com/comics/final-cri...xt=shores of a battlefield beyond imagination
You might think this is referring to imagination hyperbolically, but considering who wrote the comic and the context of the comic itself, I think it’s much more likely a reference to the fifth dimension. Moreover, when Mxy held the map in the scan, he also showed the Source Wall, which is clearly not encompassed by 5D(
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/0Y-gQ5hs7...vccTGqLoWjBDKQMZOuK4xo5pBwlYV_pCkkdhiuA=s1600 ), and it would be pretty convenient if everything else in the map was encompassed by 5D but the Source Wall magically wasn’t. It is much more probable that Mxy was referring to the Orrery when he said “everywhere” and that the 5D exists between the God Sphere and Limbo, seeing as Mxy placed his finger there-
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1065564232797659187/image.png
I have some more issues with the blog overall but I think they would be better reserved for the tiering thread.
Now onwards to my main issues with the blog, they lie in the reasoning for splitting DeMatteis and Morrison/Snyder. I will say that I am not necessarily opposed to splitting them, I just don’t think the given reasons make sense.
•In DeMatteis' stories the entirety of existence is part of a dream made by the Divine Presence while in Morrison's stories someone has drawn existence onto Monitor-Mind against its will.
1: Firstly, the link for Morrison leads to an interview. If an author statement contradicts the comics, we disregard it, not split the Cosmology to allow the statement. If we do that, a lot of verses would have some author statements made valid and also downgraded.
2: Considering when Phantom Stranger made that statement, the Monitor Sphere and Overvoid didn’t exist(talking from a meta perspective), I don’t think it would be right to apply that statement to those realms.
3: I fail to see how this is a contradiction. Why can’t both be possible? This is what Phantom Strange said-
But only if you accept that all of existence is a dream… brought forth by God
Applying this to what Morrison stated, it would just mean Presence brought a dream onto the Overvoid against Overvoid’s will. Simple. If the intension was to say the Presence is the Overvoid, this would simply be one of the many evidences against them being the same. The Presence clearly cares for creation and has showed it multiple times(the Overvoid doesn't, and was opposed to it if anything). For example-
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20150123184426&path-prefix=ru
And Wonder Woman showed the Presence existing in Heaven-
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/932856673679319040/1022175198532878336/unknown.png
If we were to focus on just stuff written by Snyder/Morrison however, Morrison did state that the Source and the Overvoid are the same beings(only in the second half of his run tho, in his first half you could even be beyond the Source, like, Maggedon, while you can't be beyond the Overvoid), but with the information we have from Snyder we know that’s not the case.
1: Source directly took part in the creation of the Multiverse, even sending Perpetua to create it itself, while the Overvoid had no idea what the Multiverse was
2: The Source exists at the centre of the Omniverse, while the Overvoid encompasses it and goes beyond
So using what Snyder has written, it is clear that Source=/=Overvoid, and as for the Presence, Snyder confirmed the Presence was an emanation of the Source-
You might try to counter this by saying Tyler immediately after the emanation statement, added “they are both the same entity?”, but in a way, a part of you is also you yourself, it’s not someone else, not something else, it’s still you, and thinking about it from this perspective, we can easily merge in the emanation statement and the statement that came after without any contradiction. The alternative would be to go for a contradictory interpretation, which I would argue against using when we have a solid interpretation. This interpretation supports my argument obviously, so more to it.
This interpretation's support doesn't end here. Here is a confirmation that the Presence is a personal manifestation of the Source, someone who came to fix the Multiverse after Perpetua ruined it-
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1065580208024985610/image.png
Not enough? Here is Scott himself saying it instead of Tyler interpreting Scott-
The Presence is to the Source what the Chaos King is to Oblivion. But we can go past author statements for evidence. The DC Book, a guidebook by DC also confirms the interpretation, by stating the Presence came after the Multiverse was created-
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1065581883729129492/image.png
So the Source and the Overvoid are completely different beings, and the Presence is a manifestation of the former. They have no relation to the Overvoid, Grant was retconned. Moving forward-
•Despite the similarities between the Overvoid and the Void Beyond All Voids, DeMatteis had no idea what the Overvoid was when he was writing his Spectre stories.
This is not an Inconsistency, like, at all. The Overvoid, speaking from a meta perspective, didn’t exist when DeMatteis wrote about the Void Beyond All Voids. They are just completely different voids, which isn’t that far-fetched, considering a lot of voids have similarities. For example, both Limbo and the Phantom Zone are white voids, similar to the Overvoid. Both of those voids are also “beyond” space and time. These are properties they share with both the Void Beyond All Voids and the Overvoid. And as for the Void Beyond All Voids specifically, the blog states it was stated to be beyond form and thought but that’s a misinterpretation of the scan given to prove that claim. The actual scan said the void predated and came before form and thought.
So in this case, the voids do have similarities, but many voids have similarities, and the provided similarities include misinterpretations and are not nearly enough for a Cosmology split. Considering the Overvoid didn’t exist when the Void Beyond All Voids came, that Void would just be beyond all the voids that existed during 2001, when the comic was written, it wouldn’t necessarily be beyond voids that came into existence later, like the Overvoid. DeMatteis’ statement hence, does not validate this split, and if anything, just validates my point more than they are just two different voids.
Now, that should pretty much cover my concerns. I did have a question however, I saw Deagon say once that comics not written by any of these prominent writers will not be counted for anything cosmic-related as they could be contradictory. What if the comics aren’t contradictory though? Would they still be disregarded? If not, which cosmology would they apply to? I do not think disregarding a huge chunk of comics just because they were not written by these writers is a good idea. And as for the Tiering, would a separate thread be made for each Cosmology to control the debates better, or would one thread cover all cosmologies?
Also if I could add to my argument on Overvoid≠Source, the Source was stated to be energy, while the Overvoid is complete nothingness