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The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 2

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Deagonx makes very good sense to me above. We must strive for accuracy rather than obsessively thirst for as high tiering as we can squeeze out of offhanded mentions 25 or more years ago that were never referred to by anybody ever again and greatly contradict all other relevant information, yes.
 
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Antvasima said:
Deagonx makes very good sense to me above. We must strive for accuracy rather than obsessively thirst for as high tiering that we can squeeze out of offhanded mentions 25 or more years ago that were never referred to by anybody ever again and greatly contradict all other relevant information, yes.
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Exactly. A lot of these objections are basically saying "it was never referenced after that, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be included in the cosmology and used for scaling characters who were written decades after it was ever mentioned" but that kind of thing is precisely what we set out to avoid when we began the project.

People are free to disagree with the project, but we should avoid the common perpetual bickering on the subject. We can just mark him down as a "no" and move on with the rest of the voting/assessments.
 
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Yes, I think that Xearsay has made his points now. There is no point in him spamming this thread with further posts that repeat the same arguments. It is better if our staff try to evaluate which of our two suggested blogs that seems to contain the most reliable solution to apply.
 
Antvasima said:
Deagonx makes very good sense to me above. We must strive for accuracy rather than obsessively thirst for as high tiering as we can squeeze out of offhanded mentions 25 or more years ago that were never referred to by anybody ever again and greatly contradict all other relevant information, yes.
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You act like Morrison’s cosmology wasn’t something developed over the span of decades. Stuff like JLA, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, etc, are important stories because they are where Morrison laid the ground work for what would develop later on. So I think it’s just pretty ridiculous to try and act like you’re striving to accurately represent Morrison’s cosmology when you’re ignoring a huge chunk of his work.

Furthermore if stuff Morrison developed is so contradictory to Snyder’s work, then there cosmologies simply shouldn’t be merged as they would be incompatible with one another.
 
Xearsay said:
You act like Morrison’s cosmology wasn’t something developed over the span of decades. Stuff like JLA, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, etc, are important stories because they are where Morrison laid the ground work for what would develop later on. So I think it’s just pretty ridiculous to try and act like you’re striving to accurately represent Morrison’s cosmology when you’re ignoring a huge chunk of his work.
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The fact that Morrison's earlier works influenced his later works does not mean that they should take priority over current works, nor does it mean that they should be used for scaling unrelated characters. The conversation you're having and the one this project is meant to discuss are two entirely different things.

Xearsay said:
Furthermore if stuff Morrison developed is so contradictory to Snyder’s work, then there cosmologies simply shouldn’t be merged as they would be incompatible with one another.
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Welcome to two weeks ago. However, to Ultima's point, the bulk of Morrison's work is very compatible with Snyder's work, and arguably everything from the 2000s afterwards works very well together, with only minor contradictions, which is why arguably all of the isolated and contradictory stuff from the 90s shouldn't be incorporated into a cosmology.
 
@Ovy7

You have given likes to several posts here and tend to be knowledgeable about higher tiers. Are you also interested in commenting here?
 
One thing the blog isn't clear on is why certain author works are canon to another. Like we have reasons why they aren't canon but I have no idea why certain authors share the same cosmology.

Maybe a section detailing consistencies should be added.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Maybe a section detailing consistencies should be added.
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So, it's primarily based on later authors directly and overtly operating within the same cosmology. In the example of Gaiman and Carey, Carey's Lucifer (2000) is a direct sequel to Sandman and utilizes basically the same concepts with very few discrepancies.

The same is true for Snyder and Morrison. Snyder built upon Morrison's Multiversity Map, and both of them operating primarily around Monitor and Anti-Monitor from Crisis on Infinite Earths. Snyder said he regularly consulted with Morrison on things to make sure they were in sync. The contradictions between Morrison and Snyder are really more referring to Morrison's earlier stuff and the things derived from some of his interview statements. However, from the comics themselves there is a very good sense of consistency between Final Crisis & Multiversity, Morrison's predominant contributions, and Snyder and Tynion's contributions, which were built to be additions to Morrison's.

That said, I agree that it is worth considering some annotations about these things in the blog itself.
 
About the nature of the 28 dimensions, they are only dimensions within the godsphere, the Source Wall that was beyond the Fourth World only had 6th dimensional structures only, which means they're below 6D.
These dimensions are obviously the dimensions mapped out by Metron in his adventures with the Mobius Chair, since these dimensions are mentioned one issue after Metron goes to the 6th-dimensional space of the Source Wall with William Willis.
 
I think we are good to move forward on the current cosmology descriptions. Ultima's perspective was accommodated and the other comments from staff have been supportive. It is time to address the tiering proposals, IMO.
 
Okay. That is probably fine then, yes. It would be better if @Ultima_Reality comments regarding if he is satisfied first though.

If other staff members state which of our two suggestions that they prefer, that would also be appreciated.

However, if we have waited for long enough already, I think that we can proceed now, yes.
 
I agree it would be better, but with his activity level here as low as it is I think it's important that we do not get delayed indefinitely. I'd say let's give it to the weekend and move on. After all, the cosmologies aren't set in stone and can be changed with CRTs later on if a good argument can be made.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That is probably fine then, yes. It would be better if @Ultima_Reality comments regarding if he is satisfied first though.

If other staff members state which of our two suggestions that they prefer, that would also be appreciated.

However, if we have waited for long enough already, I think that we can proceed now, yes.
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@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

Would you be willing to help out here please?
 
Two banned users requested to voice their opinions on the thread. These are their concerns.

@Transcending and @Beyond_Transcending said:
So I saw an argument between Xearsay and Deagon, and before getting into the blog post itself, I would like to talk about that. The four dimensions mentioned by Mr. Mxyzptlk cannot be referring to spatio-temporal ones. The blog already mentions how Scott Snyder stated his dimensions weren’t spatio-temporal, but it states that Scott was just referring to the fifth and sixth dimensions. Now, Scott in Twitter once did say his dimensions weren’t physics-based, and in another interview said his sixth wasn’t, but there’s something else he acknowledged in that interview that most people missed-

Tyler here says that DC stated before that it has countless physics-based dimensions. This was part of his reasoning as to thinking the Sixth Dimension wasn't spatio-temporal. Scott now, instead of countering it, confirmed it by saying “yes”. This is definite proof that Snyder’s 4 dimensions are not spatio-temporal . Snyder instead confirmed that his Cosmology has innumerable physics-based dimensions, rather than a mere 4, and acknowledged DC referencing innumerable dimensions as one of the reasons for his 6D not being spatio-temporal(further proof the statement applies to him, and not just to whatever writer initially mentioned the concept). Moreover, how Mxy described the 4 dimensions is different from how they are in physics, for example, he said the first dimension is a point while in actuality, a point is the 0th dimension. And when Mxy said “time”, that’s likely a reference to the timestream, which does exist beyond the universes. Also, if the first 4 dimensions were stated in an explicit way by Mxy to be spatio-temporal, why aren't they considered so in the original proposal?

I will also add that I do not believe the 5th dimension stretches as high as the Source Wall. DC stated in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2 that the Monitor Sphere is beyond imagination- https://www.dc.com/comics/final-cri...xt=shores of a battlefield beyond imagination

You might think this is referring to imagination hyperbolically, but considering who wrote the comic and the context of the comic itself, I think it’s much more likely a reference to the fifth dimension. Moreover, when Mxy held the map in the scan, he also showed the Source Wall, which is clearly not encompassed by 5D( https://2.bp.blogspot.com/0Y-gQ5hs7...vccTGqLoWjBDKQMZOuK4xo5pBwlYV_pCkkdhiuA=s1600 ), and it would be pretty convenient if everything else in the map was encompassed by 5D but the Source Wall magically wasn’t. It is much more probable that Mxy was referring to the Orrery when he said “everywhere” and that the 5D exists between the God Sphere and Limbo, seeing as Mxy placed his finger there- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1065564232797659187/image.png

I have some more issues with the blog overall but I think they would be better reserved for the tiering thread.
Now onwards to my main issues with the blog, they lie in the reasoning for splitting DeMatteis and Morrison/Snyder. I will say that I am not necessarily opposed to splitting them, I just don’t think the given reasons make sense.

•In DeMatteis' stories the entirety of existence is part of a dream made by the Divine Presence while in Morrison's stories someone has drawn existence onto Monitor-Mind against its will.
1: Firstly, the link for Morrison leads to an interview. If an author statement contradicts the comics, we disregard it, not split the Cosmology to allow the statement. If we do that, a lot of verses would have some author statements made valid and also downgraded.

2: Considering when Phantom Stranger made that statement, the Monitor Sphere and Overvoid didn’t exist(talking from a meta perspective), I don’t think it would be right to apply that statement to those realms.

3: I fail to see how this is a contradiction. Why can’t both be possible? This is what Phantom Strange said-
But only if you accept that all of existence is a dream… brought forth by God
Applying this to what Morrison stated, it would just mean Presence brought a dream onto the Overvoid against Overvoid’s will. Simple. If the intension was to say the Presence is the Overvoid, this would simply be one of the many evidences against them being the same. The Presence clearly cares for creation and has showed it multiple times(the Overvoid doesn't, and was opposed to it if anything). For example- http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20150123184426&path-prefix=ru

And Wonder Woman showed the Presence existing in Heaven- https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/932856673679319040/1022175198532878336/unknown.png

If we were to focus on just stuff written by Snyder/Morrison however, Morrison did state that the Source and the Overvoid are the same beings(only in the second half of his run tho, in his first half you could even be beyond the Source, like, Maggedon, while you can't be beyond the Overvoid), but with the information we have from Snyder we know that’s not the case.

1: Source directly took part in the creation of the Multiverse, even sending Perpetua to create it itself, while the Overvoid had no idea what the Multiverse was

2: The Source exists at the centre of the Omniverse, while the Overvoid encompasses it and goes beyond

So using what Snyder has written, it is clear that Source=/=Overvoid, and as for the Presence, Snyder confirmed the Presence was an emanation of the Source-

You might try to counter this by saying Tyler immediately after the emanation statement, added “they are both the same entity?”, but in a way, a part of you is also you yourself, it’s not someone else, not something else, it’s still you, and thinking about it from this perspective, we can easily merge in the emanation statement and the statement that came after without any contradiction. The alternative would be to go for a contradictory interpretation, which I would argue against using when we have a solid interpretation. This interpretation supports my argument obviously, so more to it.

This interpretation's support doesn't end here. Here is a confirmation that the Presence is a personal manifestation of the Source, someone who came to fix the Multiverse after Perpetua ruined it- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1065580208024985610/image.png
Not enough? Here is Scott himself saying it instead of Tyler interpreting Scott-
The Presence is to the Source what the Chaos King is to Oblivion. But we can go past author statements for evidence. The DC Book, a guidebook by DC also confirms the interpretation, by stating the Presence came after the Multiverse was created- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1065581883729129492/image.png

So the Source and the Overvoid are completely different beings, and the Presence is a manifestation of the former. They have no relation to the Overvoid, Grant was retconned. Moving forward-
•Despite the similarities between the Overvoid and the Void Beyond All Voids, DeMatteis had no idea what the Overvoid was when he was writing his Spectre stories.

This is not an Inconsistency, like, at all. The Overvoid, speaking from a meta perspective, didn’t exist when DeMatteis wrote about the Void Beyond All Voids. They are just completely different voids, which isn’t that far-fetched, considering a lot of voids have similarities. For example, both Limbo and the Phantom Zone are white voids, similar to the Overvoid. Both of those voids are also “beyond” space and time. These are properties they share with both the Void Beyond All Voids and the Overvoid. And as for the Void Beyond All Voids specifically, the blog states it was stated to be beyond form and thought but that’s a misinterpretation of the scan given to prove that claim. The actual scan said the void predated and came before form and thought.

So in this case, the voids do have similarities, but many voids have similarities, and the provided similarities include misinterpretations and are not nearly enough for a Cosmology split. Considering the Overvoid didn’t exist when the Void Beyond All Voids came, that Void would just be beyond all the voids that existed during 2001, when the comic was written, it wouldn’t necessarily be beyond voids that came into existence later, like the Overvoid. DeMatteis’ statement hence, does not validate this split, and if anything, just validates my point more than they are just two different voids.
Now, that should pretty much cover my concerns. I did have a question however, I saw Deagon say once that comics not written by any of these prominent writers will not be counted for anything cosmic-related as they could be contradictory. What if the comics aren’t contradictory though? Would they still be disregarded? If not, which cosmology would they apply to? I do not think disregarding a huge chunk of comics just because they were not written by these writers is a good idea. And as for the Tiering, would a separate thread be made for each Cosmology to control the debates better, or would one thread cover all cosmologies?
Also if I could add to my argument on Overvoid≠Source, the Source was stated to be energy, while the Overvoid is complete nothingness
Click to expand...
 
I've decided to truncate my response to this, as I do not want to spend an excessive amount of the real-estate in this thread by addressing each claim made line by line, so I will summarize/generalize the main matters of fact as I see them.

The biggest problem with these objections is that the evidence they are based on is much poorer than the evidence upon which we based our cosmology blog. Ranging from vague to useless. Scott Snyder's interviews can be a useful source for clarifying information, but something as wishy-washy as "said yes to something a YouTuber said" is not going to override the matter-of-fact description given in the comics by cosmic beings. When I did my interview with Scott Snyder, I crowdsourced the questions that were to be asked, and took care not to impose my own opinions on the questions, for this specific reason. Generic agreeability by an author in a live interview is not more important than what the comics actually say.

Likewise for opinion based assessments, such as "I think they meant the fifth dimension when they said 'beyond imagination'" even though the Fifth Dimension played no role in Final Crisis. The same goes for things like "I think the Fifth Dimension is between Limbo and the Sphere of the Gods because that's where Mxy's fingers were on the map."

When compared to the evidence and reasoning compiled in the blog, the evidence for our case is far far stronger. We have Mxy blatantly saying that the Multiverse exists in four dimensions, direct statements that those dimensions are length, width, depth, and time, similar statements from Mxy in Snyder's run, and it's consistent with other evidence we have.

Similar, with regard to the Source/Presence/Overvoid, the evidence for their mutual identity is again far stronger. Explicit statements in the comics, and from multiple authors, that they are the same thing. Them being overtly identified as the same on the map, et cetera. I think the evidence is far far stronger in favor of mutual identity than some hierarchical notion which, in my opinion, is cooked up based on flimsy evidence for the specific purpose of trying to downplay a character that this group historically has aligned against.

With regard to DeMatteis, no one else seems to find that division controversial, so I am not sure it requires much response. I will say, if the notion being put forth is that the Overvoid and the Void beyond all voids are not the same void, but are in fact two co-existing voids, I think the silliness of that more or less speaks for itself.

TL;DR: Maybe other people will find this stuff convincing, but I certainly don't, and I do not get the impression that other people here will either.
 
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Antvasima said:
Have we waited for long enough now?
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Never mind. It seems like Ultima only told me that he would comment here two days ago.

@Ultima_Reality

As I mentioned earlier, we have gone out of our way with first changing the structure of much of our suggestion to accommodate you, and also waiting for you for quite a while.

Are you willing to help us out here please?
 
I don't see how this post is relevant to the purpose of the thread.

"This thread is for assessing the division into these five cosmologies, and reaching a community consensus on the matter."

Are you suggesting a change to the OP's proposal? If not, we want to avoid any derailing and save this discussion for a different thread.
 
Transcending said:
Now that this is done, whenever Deagon counters this post, I ask him to do it point by point like how I did or to counter it line-by-line. This is to avoid any future incidents like this with 10 strikes. Deagon has clearly written longer counters before(the Animal Man thread comes to mind). The length shouldn't be an issue for him. Firestorm had asked Deagon to post a more thorough response due to these strikes, but Deagon rejected the request by saying he doesn't owe a debate. I will say that he doesn't need to debate in this thread but in the tiering thread, he should owe a debate if he wants his points to stay.
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You seem to be under the impression that if you write a post against someone in this wiki, they must respond to you in order for their stance to be accepted. This is not the case. All arguments, mine and yours, will be assessed on their own merits by the staff. The staff are all capable of determining whether or not arguments are well-reasoned. Your arguments will not be accepted by default simply because no one decided to engage in a debate with you, or because you had the "last word" in a debate.

I will repeat my earlier point: I do not find it prudent to go line-by-line with your argument. I do not find your arguments convincing or well-reasoned, and my earlier overview of why that is the case is the maximum amount of attention or effort I intend to give to this, unless certain arguments become well-received amongst the staff and I feel that they warrant a more direct rebuttal. Simply put, I don't anticipate that being the case.
 
I deleted the long derailing attack post.
 
Deagonx said:
You seem to be under the impression that if you write a post against someone in this wiki, they must respond to you in order for their stance to be accepted. This is not the case. All arguments, mine and yours, will be assessed on their own merits by the staff. The staff are all capable of determining whether or not arguments are well-reasoned. Your arguments will not be accepted by default simply because no one decided to engage in a debate with you, or because you had the "last word" in a debate.
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While I do agree that someone who gets the last word in shouldn't necessarily be accepted(as that would turn out to be a battle of endurance rather than actual points), I would expect an opponent to give at least a single proper counter-post.
 
Transcending said:
I would expect an opponent to give at least a single proper counter-post.
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You can expect anything you want, but when someone evaluates a thread, they will support the best argument, based on what used better reasoning or better evidence. An unaddressed rebuttal will also be evaluated, but one does not have to respond to it in order for the rebuttal to be rejected by staff, if the rebuttal just isn't very good.

It should be of no concern to you whether or not I respond to your arguments. They will be evaluated by staff fairly either way.
 
Permanently stop derailing please, Transcending.

Anyway, is Ultima ever going to show up here, or should we proceed without him in lack of better options?
 
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