The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

[Elizio33]

Also the fact that the Monitor Brothers were made from pieces of the void heavily calls into question the level of which it transcends the Sixth Dimension at all. All indications are that the Overvoid is relatively easily traversed by the Hands and agents of the Source.

I don't know if what Perpetua meant by saying "Rent from the Overvoid into the flesh" means that she created the Monitor Brothers with fragments of the Overvoid or that she did something similar to Elaine Belloc when she manipulated a small section of the void to fill it with her created universe.

I personally think it's the latter since Perpetua says: "The first children of a new realm of existence. Rent from the Overvoid into flesh."
It's more the new realm of existence that was rent from the Overvoid into flesh rather than her sons. Anyway, it's kind of irrelevant now.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't know if what Perpetua meant by saying "Rent from the Overvoid into the flesh" means that she created the Monitor Brothers with fragments of the Overvoid or that she did something similar to Elaine Belloc when she manipulated a small section of the void to fill it with her created universe.

Well the full quote is: "You are the first beings. The first chldren of a new realm of existence, rent from the Overvoid into flesh."

Rent is "tear/torn", so they were "torn from the Overvoid into flesh." IMO the best interpretation is that their flesh is made from pieces torn from the Overvoid. I don't think it can refer to the realm. If our two options for "flesh" are people or a realm, we should definitely go with people. People are made of flesh. Not realms.

 

[Elizio33]

Well the full quote is: "You are the first beings. The first chldren of a new realm of existence, rent from the Overvoid into flesh."

Rent is "tear/torn", so they were "torn from the Overvoid into flesh." IMO the best interpretation is that their flesh is made from pieces torn from the Overvoid. I don't think it can refer to the realm. If our two options for "flesh" are people or a realm, we should definitely go with people. People are made of flesh. Not realms.

Flesh in this context can be also a way of speaking but Okay. It makes sense

 

[Xearsay]

Heres the non dual scan.

Also Elizio, I don’t think you actually understand what the Overvoid is. It’s not that nothing can exist within the Overvoid, it’s that everything is Monitor Mind. As Monitor Mind resolves within itself all contradictions, all possibilities, etc, into oneness. This point is actually something that was brought up by Ultima within the previous revision thread.

Ultima - “So I find it fairly strange that, despite this concept explicitly containing and subsuming all contradictions within itself, it is being segregated like any other part of the cosmology because of... contradictions. This aspect of the Monitor-Mind is added to, although not dependent on, I might add, by much of the metafiction that Grant Morrison introduced back in his Animal Man days as well. He, after all, very directly talked about how the fictional world is ultimately a universe created by committee . The horde of authors that write for DC is acknowledged, and as a natural extension of this, as are the inconsistencies that come to be as a result of that: The Monitor-Mind is the blank page of the comicbook, and it can accommodate for whatever stories the writers like, regardless of contradictions.”

All in all, yes Monitor Mind can be said to have an end, and still be infinite. As anything that happens within the stories on the Overvoid is just simply that, a part of the stories. And Monitor Mind can accommodate for whatever possible stories exists regardless of them being contradictory. Now that we’ve taken into account what Monitor Mind actually is, the idea that Monitor Mind was “retconned” due to some statements from characters within the story, can be disregarded immediately.

 

[Deagonx]

This conversation goes nowhere if you repeatedly refuse to address the flaws in your argument for 1-A.

And if you're arguing that the Overvoid can't be retconned, then that can be disregarded immediately.

 

[Xearsay]

I don’t really get what you’re talking about. Functioning as a canvas to a setting that is independent of any amount of layers that can be inserted into the setting like the Overvoid, is 1-A. If you have a problem with it, make a separate control thread about it.

 

[Deagonx]

Functioning as a canvas to a setting that is independent of any amount of layers that can be inserted into the setting like the Overvoid, is 1-A

Prove it with scans. You haven't shown anything other than it possibly being a higher level of infinity, but the evidence points to it being on the same level as the Sixth Dimension.

And to be clear, arguing against it being on the same level as the Sixth Dimension is a separate issue to the lack of evidence for what you just said. So you'll need to address both.

 

[Xearsay]

I already did though?

Earlier post - “Monitor Mind is the canvas which exist independent of the entire setting and it’s possible layerings, as story can spread within Monitor Minds consciousness, forming even higher layers to the Multiverse such as the Monitor Sphere, while still being transcended completely by Monitor Mind. With Monitor Mind standing beyond even the concept of story which conceptualizes the Multiverse and its hierarchy.”

What happened to people not being allowed to rearrange the cosmology within this thread? According to the already accepted cosmology structure within the very blog you guys worked on, the Sixth Dimension is a realm within the Multiverse that exists beneath the Overvoid. So don’t go start trying to change things now because according to you, we’re well past that.

 

[Deagonx]

Earlier post - “Monitor Mind is the canvas which exist independent of the entire setting and it’s possible layerings, as story can spread within Monitor Minds consciousness, forming even higher layers to the Multiverse such as the Monitor Sphere, while still being transcended completely by Monitor Mind. With Monitor Mind standing beyond even the concept of story which conceptualizes the Multiverse and its hierarchy.”

How is this 1-A? Can you refer to the criteria in the tiering page that this is meant to satisfy?

Where is the evidence for the assertions before and after your scan? That Monitor Mind is completely independent or that it's beyond the concept of story? How can it be beyond the concept of story if it's affected by story?

According to the already accepted cosmology structure within the very blog you guys worked on, the Sixth Dimension is a realm within the Multiverse that exists beneath the Overvoid. So don’t go start trying to change things now because according to you, we’re well past that.

Below =/= infinitely below.

 

[Elizio33]

Anyway. If neither "At least 2-C " nor "Low 1-C" for the Sphere of the Gods works, i propose "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" since the Sphere of the Gods is above Hypertime in our DC Cosmology blog.

 

[Elizio33]

This is what the Morrison/Snyder/Tynion IV hierarchy tiering would look like with my proposal and our current tierings:

Godhead Darkseid: At least 2-C, possibly 2-A (Low 1-C with our current tierings)

Hecate/The Upside-Down Man: At least 2-C, possibly 2-A (Low 1-C with our current tierings)

The Monitors/Mandrakk/The Thought Robot: Low 1-C (At least Low 1-C with our current tierings)

Mr. Mxyzptlk/Bat-Mite: Low 1-C (At least Low 1-C with our current tierings)

The Monitor/Anti-Monitor/The World Forger: Low 1-C (1-C with our current tierings)

Perpetua/Dr. Manhattan/The Darkest Knight/Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman/The Hands: At least Low 1-C (1-C with our current tierings)

The Source/Monitor-Mind/The Presence: 1-C (1-A with our current tierings)

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Are we not using the interconnected universe scaling because..its too old?

 

[Xearsay]

How is this 1-A? Can you refer to the criteria in the tiering page that this is meant to satisfy?

FAQ - “A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.”

Where is the evidence for the assertions before and after your scan? That Monitor Mind is completely independent or that it's beyond the concept of story? How can it be beyond the concept of story if it's affected by story?

Monitor Mind existing in a way that is independent of the Multiverse and its possible layerings, is supported via Final Crisis when Monitor Mind was shown functioning as the void for the entire Multiverse that was created and growing inside of it, with even the addition of layers to the Multiverse like the Monitor Sphere being completely transcended by the Overvoid.

Also it was the probe Dax Novu who was affected by story, not the Overvoid. The scan says “With no precedent for the concept story…No understanding of the damage story might do to an immense awareness without limits or definition. Monitor has zero defenses. Blinded, split in two, the probe withdraws!”

Below =/= infinitely below.

Once again, like you have said this isn’t the place for restructuring the cosmology. I’m not going to waste time trying to prove something that was already accepted in the last control thread. If you have a problem with this, you can wait until after the revision is finished to make a control thread about it.

 

[Robo432343]

You would need to prove that up to infinite number of dimensions can be added to the overvoid to get the 1-A rating based on faq

 

[LuciferX]

Also nowhere does the scan say the Overvoid was affected by story. The scan says “With no precedent for the concept story…No understanding of the damage story might do to an immense awareness without limits or definition.”

"Monitor has zero defences".

 

[Xearsay]

You would need to prove that up to infinite number of dimensions can be added to the overvoid to get the 1-A rating based on faq

Yes which I already did, as additional layers can be added to the Multiverse or inserted into the Overvoid, and the Overvoid will still remain completely transcendent.

Which according to the FAQ is one of the examples.

- “For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.”

 

[Xearsay]

"Monitor has zero defences".

How does this prove Monitor Mind was affected by story? When we actually look at the context of Final Crisis, Monitor Mind extended a probe(Dax Novu) to make contact with the stories of the Multiverse. Monitor Mind however had no precedent for the concept of story, no understanding of what damage it might do, and thus no defenses set up for it, so the probe was then split in two.

“Blinded, split in two, the probe withdraws!”

Which isn’t proof that Monitor Mind was affected by stories but rather the probe(Dax Novu).

 

[Robo432343]

Yes which I already did, as additional layers can be added to the Multiverse or inserted into the Overvoid, and the Overvoid will still remain completely transcendent.

the scans dont really say that and we dont even know if an INFINITE number of dimensions can be added

 

[Robo432343]

I dont even need to say anything since the scans arent even adding up to what you're saying

 

[Xearsay]

the scans dont really say that and we dont even know if an INFINITE number of dimensions can be added

Yes we do, as the Multiverse grew inside of Monitor Mind the Monitor Sphere was added to it, and Monitor Mind remained completely transcendent to it. Proving that Monitor Mind is unaffected by the growing of additional layering to the Multiverse. Meaning even if the Multiverse grew an additional 3, 4, 5, or an infinite amount of layers Monitor Mind would remain transcendent to all of them.

 

[Robo432343]

Yes we do, as the Multiverse grew inside of Monitor Mind the Monitor Sphere was added to it, and Monitor Mind remained completely transcendent to it. Proving that Monitor Mind is unaffected by the growing of additional layering to the Multiverse. Meaning even if the Multiverse grew an additional 3, 4, 5, or an infinite amount of layers Monitor Mind would remain transcendent to all of them.

That still doesn’t mean infinite layers/dimensions. lol
That’s 1 level of transcendence

i was using the same logic when I was arguing for possible 1A void and you disagreed lmfao

 

[Xearsay]

That still doesn’t mean infinite layers/dimensions. lol
That’s 1 level of transcendence

i was using the same logic when I was arguing for possible 1A void and you disagreed lmfao

I disagreed because the Vertigo Void didn’t have any evidence to support its justification. The Vertigo Void wasn’t superior to any amount of additional layers or dimensions that can be inserted into it, instead it was superior to the amount of tier 2 Multiverses that could exist. If the Vertigo Void had evidence to support being 1-A like the Overvoid does, I wouldn’t have a problem with it at all.

 

[Robo432343]

I disagreed because the Vertigo Void didn’t have any evidence to support its justification. The Vertigo Void wasn’t superior to any amount of additional layers or dimensions that can be inserted into it, instead it was superior to the amount of tier 2 Multiverses that could exist. If the Vertigo Void had evidence to support being 1-A like the Overvoid does, I wouldn’t have a problem with it at all.

Same thing goes for overvoid

Hell, even vertigo void has more evidence of it leading towards the FAQ unlike the scans you sent

 

[Xearsay]

Same thing goes for overvoid

Hell, even vertigo void has more evidence of it leading towards the FAQ unlike the scans you sent

Monitor Mind actually has evidence that it functions as an independent canvas where the Multiverse can grown and dimensions or layers can be added like the Monitor Sphere, while still being completely transcended by the Overvoid. Which is 1-A.

The Vertigo Void simply has infinite universes amounting to 0 within itself. Which is low 1-C.

If you can’t see the difference I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Robo432343]

Same thing does not go for the Overvoid. Monitor Mind actually has evidence that it functions as an independent canvas where the Multiverse can grown and dimensions/layers can be added like the Monitor Sphere, while still being completely transcended by Monitor Mind.

Cool, void also has that. You can add/remove the absence of space in the void and it would remain unaffected. Also monitor mind isn't even going to stay as 1-A in the blog at this rate since so many others disagree with you.

The Vertigo Void simply has infinite universes amounting to 0 within itself. Which is low 1-C.

no? a portion of the vertigo void houses infinite Low 1-C creations to 0. The reason why its Low 1-C is because the void transcends heaven, the mansion of silence which are Low 1-C. And all those creations exist in the void, which transcends heaven (low 1-c structure)

 

[Deagonx]

Monitor Mind existing in a way that is independent of the Multiverse and its possible layerings, is supported via Final Crisis when Monitor Mind was shown functioning as the void for the entire Multiverse that was created and growing inside of it, with even the addition of layers to the Multiverse like the Monitor Sphere being completely transcended by the Overvoid.

Okay. So this is an additional layer of infinity. What's your point?

How does this prove Monitor Mind was affected by story?

Monitor Mind is literally infected by story.

If you can’t see the difference I don’t know what to tell you.

Well there's no evidence of a difference, so.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far, Deagonx? I personally do not mind Elizio33's scaling suggestions.

 

[Deagonx]

If you can’t see the difference I don’t know what to tell you.

What are the conclusions here so far, Deagonx? I personally do not mind Elizio33's scaling suggestions.

We may be downgrading the overvoid to 1-C, Vertigo Void to L1-C, and Divine Presence to 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would you and/or Elizio33 and/or other project members be willing to update our latest sandbox draft page accordingly, so I can copy-paste the contents into our latest blog post for this project?

We preferably need go-aheads from other staff members first though.

 

[Xearsay]

Okay. So this is an additional layer of infinity. What's your point?

It’s not. Functioning as a canvas that is independent of any amount of layers or dimensions which can be inserted is considered to be 1-A via FAQ.

- “For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.”

Monitor Mind is literally infected by story.

No the mysteriousness of the Thought Robot which haunted Monitor Mind and infected the immaculate intelligence(Monitor Mind) with questions and speculations about the Multiverse. After becoming curious, Monitor Mind created the Monitors to study and oversee the Multiverse for it.

Dax Novu (the probe) is the one who was literally infected by the stories.

 

[Deagonx]

- “For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.”

What is the evidence of this? The fact that the Monitor Sphere formed around the flaw doesn't mean that Overvoid was unaffected or that an infinite amount can be added arbitrarily. I don't see how this is any different from Vertigo.

No the mysteriousness of the Thought Robot which haunted Monitor Mind and infected the immaculate intelligence(Monitor Mind) with questions and speculations about the Multiverse. After becoming curious, Monitor Mind created the Monitors to study and oversee the Multiverse for it

"With no precedent for the concept "story," No understanding of the damage "story" might do to an immense awareness without limits or definition... Monitor has zero defenses."

It's patently obvious that Monitor is not unaffected by story. Further in Multiversity

"Monitor-Mind, in shock from the schism, acts to contain the flaw. To bottle the flaw and pretend its spread."

 

[Elizio33]

Okay. Would you and/or Elizio33 and/or other project members be willing to update our latest sandbox draft page accordingly, so I can copy-paste the contents into our latest blog post for this project?

We preferably need go-aheads from other staff members first though.

I can handle that if you don't mind and provide me with the instructions for what needs to be changed.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I unfortunately do not know the specifics, and am too busy right now to properly investigate and structure instructions for you.

 

[Elizio33]

Well, I unfortunately do not know the specifics, and am too busy right now to properly investigate and structure instructions for you.

Okay no problem. I re-read this threat and what seems to be agreed is my proposal for Morrison/Snyder cosmology. Low 1-C for Vertigo Void. High 1-B for The Divine Presence. Did I miss something ?

 

[Antvasima]

Does that seem correct, Deagonx and PrinceofPein?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Does that seem correct, Deagonx and PrinceofPein?

Yes it is

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Elizio33]

And what about the Sphere of the Gods? Should I change it to At least 2-C or At least 2-C, possibly 2-A?

 

[PrinceofPein]

And what about the Sphere of the Gods? Should I change it to At least 2-C or At least 2-C, possibly 2-A?

At least 2-C is just fine tbh, the justification for possibly 2-A is kind of weak

 

[Deagonx]

At least 2-C is just fine tbh, the justification for possibly 2-A is kind of weak

Agreed

Okay no problem. I re-read this threat and what seems to be agreed is my proposal for Morrison/Snyder cosmology. Low 1-C for Vertigo Void. High 1-B for The Divine Presence. Did I miss something ?

Yes, this all looks good to me.