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Super Mario CRT: Galaxy? I Think Not!

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Nevermind. I found the text as well as the Japanese version of it. It makes no mention of "surviving" and just talks about the Lumas being frightened. Knowing this, the context for English could be Polari making a figure of speech in reference to them isolating and hiding in fear, not surviving off of the power.

Yet again the Japanese version comes in to completely destroy what the English source says.

So no, Lumas don't live off the power, so that can't be used as a legitimate argument. We've only got the Reactor thing.
 
The only reliable source of scaling Grand Stars have to Lumas IS the Reactor feat the Lumas needed hundreds of to counter. Anything beyond that isn't a reliable argument and has holes and counters, so we should just stick with the Reactor feat for Grand Stars and that's really it.

Power Stars absolutely don't scale to the higher stuff. At best High 4-C to possibly 4-A (dependent on how the 64 CRT goes).

And I believe Lumas get the highest key of 3-B when acting as a group, with the Grand Star being close but the Lumas got their way in the end.

And "new universe" has been brought up before. It was denied due to the interpretation that Bowser means that the Star would just be the starting point from where he will conquer the universe, and under his dominion it would become "new" in that sense.
 
Mario has access to Star Bits but I don't think he absorbs them and eat them so I don't think they can be used as a way of saying Mario was powered-up, and the power of the stars thing I talked about seems to have been denied so there's no proof he was powered up in either Galaxy when facing those threats.
 
That is true. You're quite right. Though some might argue that a singular 3-C to possibly 3-B instance of scaling would be an outlier for Mario, although we then point to the consistency of Mario defeating bosses powered by Grand Stars, with Bowser's entire plan relying on basically draining them dry of energy, meaning it's doubtful only a fraction of the power was utilized.

But idk. 3-B is apparently still iffy for some people to accept. But given all Grand Stars have for scaling and a feat is the Reactor which needed hundreds of Lumas to counter and caused a 3-B event, idk. Seems pretty blatant? Especially when we acknowledge Mario travels outside of his galaxy meaning there's no reason to assume the other galaxies and therefore the Star Power counter aren't accurate to the actual celestial bodies, espec when calcs we use rely on both.
 
Mario can obviously grow stronger over time. Do people think Mario's tier is just forever stagnant, and the 4-A feats are also just a 1 time thing (Power Stars) that happened like 25 years ago
 
He does canonically grow in power lol

To be honest that needs a CRT itself cause other franchises have ratings for that. Across the many games there are numerous statements and contextual implications of the characters growing stronger.
 
If you could compile more evidence like that across the games that would certainly be worthy of a CRT. Don't do it here though.
 
So far nothing. I'll have to reword the OP again too. But so far I've shown evidence and explained how Power Stars shouldn't scale to the Lumas and that Grand Stars should only have the Reactor feat to rely on, and I've also said we should add a "As a Group" key for the Lumas which lists their 3-B feat.

Those are my current proposals.

Edited the OP to include these proposals
 
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Foxthefox1000 said:
It's also said that the Toads themselves brought the Star Bits to the castle, only carrying one at a time. The Star Bits didn't all dump onto the Kingdom and then form a Grand Star. My assumption makes more sense given the context that Toads who can only carry one at a time brought them to the castle. In all iterations of Toad Town it's barely had a hundred Toads occupying it.
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Who says that the Toads only took one trip? It's heavily implied that they used the majority of the star bits, and that they spent all night collecting the "countless" star bits. The second image isn't indicative of how many Star Bits the Toads can carry, it's just showing that they were collecting them. Also, sidenote, if it was so easy to make a Grand Star out of Star Bits, then why would Mario give hundreds of them to Hungry Lumas to get Power Stars? In fact, he can carry up to 9,999 star bits but still can't make a Grand Star (all he gets is a Watermelon...)

Foxthefox1000 said:
Nevermind. I found the text as well as the Japanese version of it. It makes no mention of "surviving" and just talks about the Lumas being frightened. Knowing this, the context for English could be Polari making a figure of speech in reference to them isolating and hiding in fear, not surviving off of the power.

Yet again the Japanese version comes in to completely destroy what the English source says.

So no, Lumas don't live off the power, so that can't be used as a legitimate argument. We've only got the Reactor thing.
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Alright, but they still rely on Star Power to travel to distant galaxies, implying that Power Stars and Grand Stars are superior power sources to Luma transformations. As for the proposals, I disagree with removing Power Star scaling to Lumas, 3-B Grand Stars and Lumas in large enough groups seems fine I suppose.

Another sidenote, can you speak/translate Japanese?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Lemme see if I can summarize it well:

1. We make a key for Lumas that gives them their 3-B rating or we add it as a note to the profile on general. Just acknowledge the fact it exists.

2. Get rid of the scaling to Lumas as Rosalina's quote is vague and relies on an interpretation of a minor dialogue change that doesn't even mention galaxies to begin with. What we SHOULD rely on is an actually direct scaling chain involving Star Bits, noting how the Japanese translation and simple narrative context show that Star Bits literally became a Grand Star after a few Toads who could only carry one at a time brought them to the castle, with this number likely being lower than the several hundreds at bare minimum needed for Hungry Lumas to become galaxies. The energy to create them is less than what is required to create galaxies.

However, the Grand Star did in fact power the Reactor and it did in fact sustain that Star and seemed to be what kept it from going supernova and creating the black hole, even if Bowser needed to drain it throughout the course of the game this proves it DOES ultimately have that kind of power. So in reality maybe Tier 3 for Grand Stars can stay.

3. Power Stars also are created with these planets and galaxies the Lumas become, and given the discrepancies between a planet and galaxy as well as Grand Stars being superior to Power Stars, we now know they'd require a small amount of energy involved in these transformations. Let's just give them the benefit of the doubt and give them their next best tier and make them High 4-C again at best, with no reason to scale any higher and no feats on a higher level yet, as the 64 thread might be heading towards a downgrade too and we'd need some kind of tier. Though atm we'd keep them 4-A until the 64 thread is finished. Their profile would need a rewording.

Uh, yeah, I think that covers it. Basically Lumas have everything to gain from this, Power Stars have everything to lose, and Grand Stars would maybe get some rewordings but otherwise be fine.
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1. How will that even be listed on the profile? Do you have a suggestion? Because the profile is for a single luma, not for what hundreds of lumas can do as a shared feat. I still don't think the suicide/shared feat of hundreds of lumas is 3-B. It is evidently stronger than the black hole that was about to kill Mario and everyone else. The lumas sacrificed their lives in order to save Mario & Co. Not to protect the destruction of multiple galaxies which was never once mentioned. And the black hole was not 3-B.

Also, on the point of Lumas transformation to galaxies not scaling to anybody, I can agree with that. Just because Lumas can explode and transform into a galaxy (whatever the size), doesn't mean power stars or grand stars inherently use that level of energy normally, unless they themselves also explode and release all their energy, in which case it would make more sense.

Other than that, I don't have much to add.
 
CreatorJoe said:
There's also this scan I found from some VS Battles wiki clone taken from the Super Mario Galaxy games: Stated to have a "galaxy rattling shot"

Dunno if it means anything or was already included.
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CreatorJoe said:
But what about the Grand Stars resetting and threatening the entire universe?
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CreatorJoe said:
Dunno; I do have a few scans from some wikis for that.
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Can I get some input on these scans here, please?
 
Most of those scans have been discussed in some of the previous threads when the downgrades happened. I don't think this thread is the best place to bring them up, you should probably search for the threads instead.
 
AKM sama said:
Most of those scans have been discussed in some of the previous threads when the downgrades happened. I don't think this thread is the best place to bring them up, you should probably search for the threads instead.
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Alright then. But can Mario still have his High 4-C key back?
 
GyroNutz said:
I think the Grand Star should keep its rating of 3-C at least, being superior to Lumas, and that Power Stars are still comparable to Lumas. Hard to tell what else is being argued atm really, this thread has gone through a lot of turns so far.
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Okay. That is probably fine.
 
If it turns out the translations are as I say they are, then Power Stars get downgraded definitely. Grand Star will only scale to the Reactor, and Lumas should still get a mention for their feat working as a group.

This is pretty reasonable and there won't be any counters to it at all. If somehow these get rejected then I'll just ask to close the thread as it's clear this would be going nowhere.
 
Apologies for not being to active here, I haven't had much to say, I'm still not in favor of 3-C galaxies so I agree with the downgrade
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
If it turns out the translations are as I say they are, then Power Stars get downgraded definitely. Grand Star will only scale to the Reactor, and Lumas should still get a mention for their feat working as a group.

This is pretty reasonable and there won't be any counters to it at all. If somehow these get rejected then I'll just ask to close the thread as it's clear this would be going nowhere.
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Its so messy, I can't tell whats been accepted, what even are the downgrades
 
Like I said, nothing so far has been accepted. There were a few who agrees with 4-A but Gyro raised a good point so I changed my arguments and found stuff that would reflect what I believe to be more accurate ratings based on what was discussed.

Power Stars would become 4-A (until the 64 thread is resolved in which case they could be downgraded more), Grand Stars would likely stay where they are but would need rewording on their profiles, and the Lumas definitely still need a mention for their group feat on the profile. I think of everything the Group key is the most agreeable
 
I’ll keep my opinion as brief as possible.
Lumas as a collective were capable of halting a Big Crunch. Which makes a single Luma like, 1/300 uni. Supported by them casually turning into galaxies. Them being stuffed shouldn’t mean much as using humans as a base, we don’t get exponentially stronger because we had a good meal. Furthermore, we’re clearly showing our bias against the verse just assuming the galaxies are smaller than normal when literally always, we are supposed to use the places we’re from as a baseline. Earth, the sun, the solar system, the galaxy, etc.

Mario very obviously scales above individual Lumas. There’s countless examples between the two galaxy games where Mario is rescuing them and destroying their captors. It makes zero sense for Mario to be weaker than them.

The guide is fine. Referring to the thing as a planetary system is true because Mario explores exactly that. A planetary system. He’s not exploring all billions of planets in the galaxy. Not to mention that they call it a galaxy with a lowercase g in the literal next sentence.

Finally, the final Grand Star was the direct cause of the Big Bang in Galaxy 1. There’s currently a bunch of leaps and bounds being taken to say otherwise. Grand Stars should remain uni+.

this is my final opinion on the matter. I’m not a fan of talking about Mario here given it was the straw that broke the camel’s back into me retiring.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
I’ll keep my opinion as brief as possible.
Lumas as a collective were capable of halting a Big Crunch. Which makes a single Luma like, 1/300 uni. Supported by them casually turning into galaxies. Them being stuffed shouldn’t mean much as using humans as a base, we don’t get exponentially stronger because we had a good meal. Furthermore, we’re clearly showing our bias against the verse just assuming the galaxies are smaller than normal when literally always, we are supposed to use the places we’re from as a baseline. Earth, the sun, the solar system, the galaxy, etc.

Mario very obviously scales above individual Lumas. There’s countless examples between the two galaxy games where Mario is rescuing them and destroying their captors. It makes zero sense for Mario to be weaker than them.

The guide is fine. Referring to the thing as a planetary system is true because Mario explores exactly that. A planetary system. He’s not exploring all billions of planets in the galaxy. Not to mention that they call it a galaxy with a lowercase g in the literal next sentence.

Finally, the final Grand Star was the direct cause of the Big Bang in Galaxy 1. There’s currently a bunch of leaps and bounds being taken to say otherwise. Grand Stars should remain uni+.

this is my final opinion on the matter. I’m not a fan of talking about Mario here given it was the straw that broke the camel’s back into me retiring.
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Yeah I completely understand. Don't get me wrong. I fully agree with you and I've tried arguing for these. If anything I'm unhealthily embracing the clear bias cause the alternative is too tiring and time-consuming. I secretly wish these things don't go through in all honesty.

Like, everyone and their mom acknowledges there was a universal reset. It's like Occam's Razor sort of. It seems to be the common consensus even among non-versus debaters. I don't know why it's considered less than uni truthfully.
 
Lumas as a collective were capable of halting a Big Crunch
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Correction. Lumas as a collective were capable of halting a black hole.

Also, I'd suggest steering clear of saying things like "there is bias against the verse". That's one definite way of poisoning the well and stuff like that don't contribute to the purpose of the thread.
 
You'll have to check some of the earlier threads because I am 100% sure those scans were already addressed.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Like I said, nothing so far has been accepted. There were a few who agrees with 4-A but Gyro raised a good point so I changed my arguments and found stuff that would reflect what I believe to be more accurate ratings based on what was discussed.

Power Stars would become 4-A (until the 64 thread is resolved in which case they could be downgraded more), Grand Stars would likely stay where they are but would need rewording on their profiles, and the Lumas definitely still need a mention for their group feat on the profile. I think of everything the Group key is the most agreeable
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@Foxthefox1000 @GyroNutz @Antvasima @AKM sama @Seol404 I'm still in favor of returning Mario's High 4-C key and Pre-Stellar Lifing Strength based upon this; I feel like we'd be making progress with getting something like that accepted. Anyone else with me on this?
 
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