Origami King Buffs

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I’d point to Kirby, which has separate keys for Pre Canvas Curse as well as Pre and Post Star Allies.

dewd this is clear whataboutism!11!!11!!!!!

 

[Robot972]

I don't know how Kirby scaling works, but if it's without reason like this, then Kirby scaling is weird too.

What, having separate keys for when notable increases in stats or abilities occur?

Which is the whole point of having separate keys?

That's not how Mario scaling works. Dunno why you made this hypothetical.

I used the Volcarona feat as reference for a similar feat to show how much Mario changes between Donkey Kong Arcade and Super Mario World, which is a similar, if not shorter timeframe than Super Paper Mario to Origami King, on top of again, not having any form of leveling up between games

Anyhow, this debate, again, is worthless if you don't address the sun thing.

I still don't see the issue. The plot of the game treats it as being the sun proper

Off-topic, but Baby Mario throws a wrench in that idea.

Eh, hardly. The only time Baby Mario really does anything of note in the Yoshi series is under the effects of the Starman, and stuff from side games can be excused as some time travel bullshit

Also, Cranky Kong is still Building Level, so if we're really holding the time travel to standard, we need to fix that

 

[Mephistus]

Bump

Should also apply to king ollys lifting strength being uni
Not just his ap

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

What, having separate keys for when notable increases in stats or abilities occur?

Which is the whole point of having separate keys?

Yup, notable increases. There's nothing that implies Mario's stats increased between Color Splash and Origami King.

What's not? Characters from the end of an explicitly clear timeline having higher stats than characters earlier in the timeline is exactly how scaling usually works.

I used the Volcarona feat as reference for how much Mario changes between Donkey Kong Arcade and Super Mario World, which is a similar, if not smaller timeframe as Super Paper Mario to Origami King, again, without any form of levelling up between games

Yeah, but that's not how the wiki currently scales Mario, or quite a lot of works, for that matter. It generally just gives the characters one tier per form or explicitly uniquely tiered time period.

I still don't see the issue. The plot of the game treats it as being the sun proper

The animation doesn't, the characters treat it as (or at least acknowledge it in a way that can be interpreted as them treating it) a feature of the desert, and the Sun is literally there outside of the desert.

Should also apply to his lifting strength being uni
Not just his ap

Whose?

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

Eh, hardly. The only time Baby Mario really does anything of note in the Yoshi series is under the effects of the Starman, and stuff from side games can be excused as some time travel bullshit

That's certainly not how Partners in Time is treated.

Also, Cranky Kong is still Building Level, so if we're really holding the time travel to standard, we need to fix that

That has bugged me.

 

[Mephistus]

Whose?

Olly

 

[Lou_change]

why are normal mario and baby mario being brought up?

 

[Robot972]

Yup, notable increases. There's nothing that implies Mario's stats increased between Color Splash and Origami King.

The fact he is facing opponents with stronger feats implies his stats increased. And again, the current island level stats are from pre-Paper Mario 64 because the wiki refuses to acknowledge that both Paper and 3D Mario have better shit since then

Yeah, but that's not how the wiki currently scales Mario, or quite a lot of works, for that matter. It generally just gives the characters one tier per form or explicitly uniquely tiered time period.

Okay? And that's an issue with the wiki, not with Mario.

 

[Robot972]

why are normal mario and baby mario being brought up?

We were discussing how Mario should have more keys than a generic all-encompassing key, and I brought up how Mario should have one for Pre-Mushroom Kingdom

 

[Lou_change]

He was born in the mushroom kingdom wasn't he? That is where the stork delivered him.

 

[Robot972]

He was born in the mushroom kingdom wasn't he? That is where the stork delivered him.

Pre-Mushroom Kingdom meaning the time he spent in New Donk

 

[Robot972]

Bump

 

[Robot972]

Bump

 

[FuarRu23]

Bump

 

[Lou_change]

I mean technically you do get stat buffs in color splash if baby mario is a problem sonic was fine with something similar

 

[Robot972]

I mean technically you do get stat buffs in color splash if baby mario is a problem sonic was fine with something similar

The reason we were discussing Baby Mario is because I brought up having more tiers to show off Mario's evolution over the years, since every game regardless of point in the timeline is currently tied to Super Mario RPG tier-wise


With the exception of Cranky Kong's lame ass

 

[ShakeResounding]

I agree that the feat of Origami King folding reality should be Low 2-C tbh, especially with the extra translations Mephistus brought to help aid the idea that the entire universe is being effected.

 

[JJSliderman]

So then, how should the scaling be handled? Cuz you can fight Ollie’s first phase with just regular Paper Mario

 

[Lou_change]

I guess max up hearts, they amplify his stats.

 

[Robot972]

So then, how should the scaling be handled? Cuz you can fight Ollie’s first phase with just regular Paper Mario

Overall Mario fighting Olly is always kinda weird cause he never really does anything that warrants a buff from Origami unlike Bowser and Olivia. And yet despite that we outright see him cause major damage to titan Olly in a cutscene before he gets the giant Olivia hammer

Ya just kinda have to handwave that he never actually gets origamified

 

[AStrangeverse]

Overall Mario fighting Olly is always kinda weird cause he never really does anything that warrants a buff from Origami unlike Bowser and Olivia. And yet despite that we outright see him cause major damage to titan Olly in a cutscene before he gets the giant Olivia hammer

Ya just kinda have to handwave that he never actually gets origamified

maybe that's just extra justification for him to have AD?

 

[Robot972]

maybe that's just extra justification for him to have AD?

AD?

 

[Lou_change]

accelerated development

 

[AStrangeverse]

yeah

 

[Robot972]

accelerated development

Ah right

I mean, as I pointed out, it’s not like this is the only wild acceleration in stats the man’s had. Bro jumped from wall level to at least city level after being in the Mushroom Kingdom for three games. (Ignoring the time travel fuckery)

And here we’re talking about a 6 game gap (far moreso looking at it from the 3D world’s perspective) with multiple games having leveling

 

[Robot972]

Bump

 

[Robot972]

Bump

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

The fact he is facing opponents with stronger feats implies his stats increased.

Or it could imply that he always was that strong, or, well, that these feats should just be thrown onto the scale against the series downgrade. Also, that "stronger feats" part is still in question.

And again, the current island level stats are from pre-Paper Mario 64 because the wiki refuses to acknowledge that both Paper and 3D Mario have better shit since then

Well, as far as I'm concerned, either the wiki's going to acknowledge that both have better shit, or neither.

Okay? And that's an issue with the wiki, not with Mario.

Yep, but Mario scaling is on the wiki, so, as far as I'm concerned, either neither should have the issue or both should. If you're convinced, against most profiles that I'm aware of, that having stronger feats over time, even without other evidence of power growth, should warrant different keys instead of warranting a single one per form with the strongest/most consistent rating, then make a staff thread to make that official.

Pre-Mushroom Kingdom meaning the time he spent in New Donk

Mario spent time in New Donk? News to me.

I agree that the feat of Origami King folding reality should be Low 2-C tbh, especially with the extra translations Mephistus brought to help aid the idea that the entire universe is being effected.

What does the Japanese version say? That should take precedence over everything else.

So then, how should the scaling be handled? Cuz you can fight Ollie’s first phase with just regular Paper Mario

Overall Mario fighting Olly is always kinda weird cause he never really does anything that warrants a buff from Origami unlike Bowser and Olivia. And yet despite that we outright see him cause major damage to titan Olly in a cutscene before he gets the giant Olivia hammer

Ya just kinda have to handwave that he never actually gets origamified

To be fair, the 1,000-Fold Arms could probably fall into "the power of origami", since Mario needs Olivia to use it, and he does origamify his arms to do it.

maybe that's just extra justification for him to have AD?

Paper Mario needs no justification for AD other than leveling up in the earlier games (and Paper Jam). Especially no justification that would imply that he, without any evidence of significant power growth at the time, is just suddenly Universe level now. 'Sides, the "1,000-Fold Arms is origami power" thing already resolves that.

I mean, as I pointed out, it’s not like this is the only wild acceleration in stats the man’s had. Bro jumped from wall level to at least city level after being in the Mushroom Kingdom for three games. (Ignoring the time travel fuckery)

Time travel fuckery is the literal main aspect of a whole game. We can't just ignore it.

And here we’re talking about a 6 game gap (far moreso looking at it from the 3D world’s perspective) with multiple games having leveling

And yet, after all of these "multiple games having leveling" (after each of which the levels reset, by the way), Paper Mario could still not defeat the paper Koopalings before they get serious and force him to use a Thing card, nor Black Bowser fast enough to prevent him from healing, both in Color Splash. Meanwhile, the 3D world gets hit with time travel fuckery.

But, well, we're getting off topic by talking about the 3D world. So I'll address some things I haven't yet.

So briefly assuming that this is viable and we wouldn't just upscale Olly from the Legion of Stationary, the part that gets a bit more tricky is whether this should be put as Olly's base stats or an "Empowered by Origami" key. This part of the boss fight goes out of its way to emphasize how Origami empowers individuals, leading to Olivia folding Bowser to "strengthen [him] too". But at the same time, Olly is already made of and is constantly surrounded by Origami, implying he's always benefiting from the power of origami as he's already been shown to be capable of grand origamification prior to this reveal.

I vote for the key. Olivia's dialogue seems to imply that it's Olly's surroundings that power him up so much, and these won't always be present in a VS Battling scenario.

Even taking into account that his pre-fight plan was to use the cranes to perform the mass genocide of non-origami beings, after transforming into a giant, he talks about how his new power should be more than enough.

I think he was referring to the power of origami in general, which includes the cranes, since if he could commit genocide without using the cranes, then why wouldn't he?

 

[AStrangeverse]

Paper Mario needs no justification for AD other than leveling up in the earlier games (and Paper Jam). Especially no justification that would imply that he, without any evidence of significant power growth at the time, is just suddenly Universe level now. 'Sides, the "1,000-Fold Arms is origami power" thing already resolves that.

that's a dumb take. I never implied he could suddenly grow to Universe level, just that he's capable of AD

especially since the man has showcased substantial growth through the original Paper Mario game outside of RPG leveling mechanics

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I never implied he could suddenly grow to Universe level, just that he's capable of AD

No? Sorry, then.

especially since the man has showcased substantial growth through the original Paper Mario game outside of RPG leveling mechanics

Did he? I'm curious, since I don't remember the first Paper Mario that much.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Did he? I'm curious, since I don't remember the first Paper Mario that much.

they mainly stem from his recurring battles with Jr Troopa, though there's probably a few other examples I haven't seen yet

this was mainly towards the end of the game where Jr Troopa one-shot the Koopa Bros. who had previously increased their power "beyond their wildest dreams", then proceeded to lose to Paper Mario again

 

[Lou_change]

Time travel fuckery is the literal main aspect of a whole game. We can't just ignore it.

I mean

 

[Robot972]

Mario spent time in New Donk? News to me.

That was literally the whole point of the festival in Odyssey???

To be fair, the 1,000-Fold Arms could probably fall into "the power of origami", since Mario needs Olivia to use it, and he does origamify his arms to do it.

That’s unlikely to be the case since Olivia doesn’t mention the idea that they were already using it. But if that WAS the case, Universal Station of Legionary!

And yet, after all of these "multiple games having leveling" (after each of which the levels reset, by the way)

Because Thousand Year Door’s level 1 would be equivalent to Paper Mario 64’s final level? Because the characters are getting stronger?

Paper Mario could still not defeat the paper Koopalings before they get serious and force him to use a Thing card, nor Black Bowser fast enough to prevent him from healing, both in Color Splash. Meanwhile, the 3D world gets hit with time travel fuckery.

K?

Characters got stronger…?

I vote for the key. Olivia's dialogue seems to imply that it's Olly's surroundings that power him up so much, and these won't always be present in a VS Battling scenario.

Olly is able to fold his environment incredibly quickly but also subconsciously while fighting Mario directly

I think he was referring to the power of origami in general, which includes the cranes, since if he could commit genocide without using the cranes, then why wouldn't he?

I mean, he can kill them without problem. But he specifically was going to use the cranes to turn them into lifeless paper, which is, to be fair, far beyond what his transmutative magic can accomplish

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Even outside of level up systems, there are literally important plot related evidence of cast getting strong. In the OG Paper Mario, Mario fights Jr Troopa (Who is weaker than the Koopa Bros at the time) in the prologue. And Jr Troopa is consistently stated throughout the game to get stronger for every rematch. Koopa Bros return in chapter 8 and stated to be a lot stronger than they were as the boss of Chapter 1. But they all got OHKO'd by Jr Troopa who in turn lost to Mario again. Thousand Year Door even doubled down and mentioned Mario having the ability to grow stronger from watching fights; which was a repeat of something said in Super Mario RPG's instruction manual.

 

[Omnificence]

So, what're the conclusions here?

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

they mainly stem from his recurring battles with Jr Troopa, though there's probably a few other examples I haven't seen yet

this was mainly towards the end of the game where Jr Troopa one-shot the Koopa Bros. who had previously increased their power "beyond their wildest dreams", then proceeded to lose to Paper Mario again

That was literally the whole point of the festival in Odyssey???

Even outside of level up systems, there are literally important plot related evidence of cast getting strong. In the OG Paper Mario, Mario fights Jr Troopa (Who is weaker than the Koopa Bros at the time) in the prologue. And Jr Troopa is consistently stated throughout the game to get stronger for every rematch. Koopa Bros return in chapter 8 and stated to be a lot stronger than they were as the boss of Chapter 1. But they all got OHKO'd by Jr Troopa who in turn lost to Mario again.

Fair enough.

I mean

I don't know enough about Sonic to know the circumstances behind Classic Sonic, the similarities and differences between them and Baby Mario's, and why Sonic is relevant to this discussion. Could you explain these for my benefit, please?

That’s unlikely to be the case since Olivia doesn’t mention the idea that they were already using it.

What else would it be, then?

But if that WAS the case, Universal Station of Legionary!

I'm still not convinced that Olly "folding the fabric of reality" is Universe level. Besides, even if it were, why would the 1,000-Fold Arms scale to his full power?

Because Thousand Year Door’s level 1 would be equivalent to Paper Mario 64’s final level? Because the characters are getting stronger?

So, like, a Goomba from TTYD would be comparable in raw attacking power to Bowser from 64?

Olly is able to fold his environment incredibly quickly but also subconsciously while fighting Mario directly

Alright, but it still would take some time to do in a fight, not to mention if it takes place in a world not made of paper.

Thousand Year Door even doubled down and mentioned Mario having the ability to grow stronger from watching fights; which was a repeat of something said in Super Mario RPG's instruction manual.

Could you provide a scan for that?

 

[Lou_change]

I don't know enough about Sonic to know the circumstances behind Classic Sonic, the similarities and differences between them and Baby Mario's, and why Sonic is relevant to this discussion. Could you explain these for my benefit, please?

It seems classic sonic just became stronger after coming to the modern time and since it created a weird issue were we have evidence sonic got stronger as he when on adventures but then we also have evidence Sonic's past self is capable of fighting alongside his future self. These two things should logically contradict each other in a way that makes both being true logical impossible, but it happened anyway because the writers didn't think things through it seems that they have since made an explanation about the timeline sort of fixing itself, bur that explains what happens after he returned to the past not how he got so strong so fast.

 

[Robot972]

What else would it be, then?

That's what I'm saying. I have no idea. The obvious answer is the Olivia hammer, but it doesn't explain how Mario without the use of any origami was able to cause massive damage to Olly in a cutscene

I'm still not convinced that Olly "folding the fabric of reality" is Universe level. Besides, even if it were, why would the 1,000-Fold Arms scale to his full power?

Because... Mario beat Olly while he was at full power...? Olivia dealt the final blow, but Mario still did the brunt of the damage, even when Olly was in his final form

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

It seems classic sonic just became stronger after coming to the modern time and since it created a weird issue were we have evidence sonic got stronger as he when on adventures but then we also have evidence Sonic's past self is capable of fighting alongside his future self. These two things should logically contradict each other in a way that makes both being true logical impossible, but it happened anyway because the writers didn't think things through it seems that they have since made an explanation about the timeline sort of fixing itself, bur that explains what happens after he returned to the past not how he got so strong so fast.

Cool story, but does 3D Mario have evidence of getting stronger over time?

That's what I'm saying. I have no idea. The obvious answer is the Olivia hammer, but it doesn't explain how Mario without the use of any origami was able to cause massive damage to Olly in a cutscene

No, I mean what would the 1,000-Fold Arms be other than origami power?

Because... Mario beat Olly while he was at full power...? Olivia dealt the final blow, but Mario still did the brunt of the damage, even when Olly was in his final form

Still, why would Olly's durability scale to his Universe level feat (which I'm still convinced is just reality warping)?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Still, why would Olly's durability scale to his Universe level feat (which I'm still convinced is just reality warping)?

Probably because the implication is that the universe is but a sheet of paper to him and he is physically folding the sheet of paper.