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Super Mario CRT: Galaxy? I Think Not!

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Keeping them 3-C is an issue though.

For the people who argue for size and disagreed with Low 2-C their same skepticism can be applied to the galaxy rating. That was the point of me arguing for a downgrade because we allowed the same mindset and arguments to downgrade the same feat for the Reactor.


It also doesn't acknowledge the fact that arguments do exist for a higher rating if we do consider these galaxies to be the sizes of the Milky Way at the least, which if we do, some Lumas require more Star Bits to make a galaxy, implying they'd be making bigger galaxies than the ones who require smaller amounts too. We're gonna ignore the Luma feat entirely? The fact the Grand Star caused something hundreds of Lumas needed to counter?

To keep the profiles as they are feels like negligence, not acknowledging either side and just wanting a compromise for the sake of not upsetting anyone.

I think I provided proof that Power Stars at least shouldn't scale to 3-C, at least not yet. Mario and Co. probably could scale to the Grand Stars though. But again, this requires rewordings on their profiles. And we seem to be ignoring adding the "As a Group" key for Lumas which is blatantly not 3-C and acknowledged as scalable.

Plus, Cal literally said it should be Uni+ but that's being ignored despite people saying they agree with him.
 
If Antvasima of all people agree with letting them stay, I have to agree too. The discussion was too messy that there doesn't seem to be a real reason to downgrade
 
Yeah, I guess the confirmation and evidence of Power Stars definitely not scaling to the 3-C end due to requiring less Star Bits and also energy isn't reasonable and I guess Lumas just will continue to get ignored
 
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XXKINGXX69 said:
If Antvasima of all people agree with letting them stay, I have to agree too. The discussion was too messy that there doesn't seem to be a real reason to downgrade
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Well, I am not very good at evaluating content revision threads, so I would prefer if somebody writes a list of the current staff and retired staff opinions in this thread.
 
I suggest that if we still can't summarise this CRT after a few days, we should close it. Or else it would go on forever
 
Usually threads get closed if the majority disagrees like unanimously.

What's the rebuttal to Power Stars getting downgraded for reasons I provided? I hear crickets.

I already agreed 3-C can stay (it should be higher though but apparently opinions on that are all over the place) but the reasoning should be different.

And Lumas should get a note for working as a group as they showed an explicitly high tier feat, and many agree the Grand Stars scale to them but we seem to conveniently ignore this when it comes to the highest interpretation of the Luma feat.

What's so hard to accept? There have been no more arguments. If there's something wrong say it, otherwise it seems like I'm making a point and people are just too scared or conflicted to give a response.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Don’t see any mentions of a “Big Crunch” in those scans.

On topic, this discussion doesn’t seem to be going anywhere, but I think Galaxy level Lumas for exploding into galaxies looks fine. Not sure about the specifics of the scaling.
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The grand star was about to remake the universe
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Can you summarise your reasons for a downgrade?
Click to expand...
Star Bits are the in lore, canonical sustenance of the Lumas. Hungry Lumas use these to invoke immediate transformations. They require more Star Bits than what is likely required for Grand Stars, as the Toads could only carry single Star Bits in order to form the Grand Star. Grand Stars are superior to Power Stars so Power Stars require even less.

We also know that Power Stars are made from both planet and galaxy creation. There's no way a Power Star can take more energy to create than an entire galaxy when it's part of planet creation as well. At absolute best maybe we can say they scale up from the planet creation but we can't provably go beyond that.

Rosalina's quote is pretty much unusable and vague as hell anyways considering all of this, and Rosalina makes no distinction in the Japanese dialogue either. She just says "some become comets and stars (Though could also double as planets), and some become Power Stars." I can easily find it if people feel it's needed, but after everything else I feel it's just the cherry on top.

Grand Stars seem to be universally agreed upon to stay. Though I still think 3-B or even higher is still possible.

And Lumas still need their Group key added.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Star Bits are the in lore, canonical sustenance of the Lumas. Hungry Lumas use these to invoke immediate transformations. They require more Star Bits than what is likely required for Grand Stars, as the Toads could only carry single Star Bits in order to form the Grand Star. Grand Stars are superior to Power Stars so Power Stars require even less.
Click to expand...
What does that have to do with downgrading them to below 3-B?

We also know that Power Stars are made from both planet and galaxy creation.
Click to expand...

Where is this shown?
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
What does that have to do with downgrading them to below 3-B?



Where is this shown?
Click to expand...
First of all, they aren't 3-B or higher currently. And the reasoning is that all Power Stars have are scaling. Again, not talking about Grand Stars, but Power Stars have scaling and it doesn't even work, as I've shown and is barely supported.

When Lunas become galaxies and planets you get a Power Star from them. The Lumas had to have created that too.
 
I will also like to reiterate from a previous thread:

Upon the Reset, Rosalina will come to Mario and explain to him the cycle of life and death, how it relates to the Lumas, and saying that these newborns will someday become galaxies. She will trail off after saying that life never repeats itself the same way before finishing her trail of thought later when Mario is looking up at the Observatory where Rosalina implies they [the people] are part of the cycle as well. This applies to every NPC on Earth at the end of the game, of which there are multiple from many different galaxies across the universe in the game. The sole reason this big bang happened and reset the universe is because of the Reactor that the Grand Star sustained singlehandedly, which, upon collapse, required the collaboration of every Luma to counter.

I'm just asking what exactly here doesn't warrant 3-B. We already agree the galaxies are actually galaxies so, again, what's the issue? Because "it's just hax"? Clearly not everyone agrees with that. But the ones who disagree with that still seem to deny 3-B. Why? That's what I'm curious about.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Star Bits are the in lore, canonical sustenance of the Lumas. Hungry Lumas use these to invoke immediate transformations. They require more Star Bits than what is likely required for Grand Stars, as the Toads could only carry single Star Bits in order to form the Grand Star. Grand Stars are superior to Power Stars so Power Stars require even less.

We also know that Power Stars are made from both planet and galaxy creation. There's no way a Power Star can take more energy to create than an entire galaxy when it's part of planet creation as well. At absolute best maybe we can say they scale up from the planet creation but we can't provably go beyond that.

Rosalina's quote is pretty much unusable and vague as hell anyways considering all of this, and Rosalina makes no distinction in the Japanese dialogue either. She just says "some become comets and stars (Though could also double as planets), and some become Power Stars." I can easily find it if people feel it's needed, but after everything else I feel it's just the cherry on top.

Grand Stars seem to be universally agreed upon to stay. Though I still think 3-B or even higher is still possible.

And Lumas still need their Group key added.
Click to expand...
Foxthefox1000 said:
I will also like to reiterate from a previous thread:

Upon the Reset, Rosalina will come to Mario and explain to him the cycle of life and death, how it relates to the Lumas, and saying that these newborns will someday become galaxies. She will trail off after saying that life never repeats itself the same way before finishing her trail of thought later when Mario is looking up at the Observatory where Rosalina implies they [the people] are part of the cycle as well. This applies to every NPC on Earth at the end of the game, of which there are multiple from many different galaxies across the universe in the game. The sole reason this big bang happened and reset the universe is because of the Reactor that the Grand Star sustained singlehandedly, which, upon collapse, required the collaboration of every Luma to counter.

I'm just asking what exactly here doesn't warrant 3-B. We already agree the galaxies are actually galaxies so, again, what's the issue? Because "it's just hax"? Clearly not everyone agrees with that. But the ones who disagree with that still seem to deny 3-B. Why? That's what I'm curious about.
Click to expand...
Can somebody write a list of all the staff, retired staff, and knowledgeable members who have commented here so far, so I can ask them to evaluate this please?
 
My opinion has remained the same. Main cast should be 3-C to 3-B, idc which. 3-C if scaling above Hungry Lumas, 3-B if scaling to 1/300-ish of the universal event. Nothing states that Lumas are like the Unown and get stronger en masse, so we can just assume that it took that many of them to perform that uni+ feat. Btw, while the feat itself is uni+ (as time is very clearly affected), a fraction of it should be 3-B, not tier 2.

Also, and this is important, I wanna state that Rosalina is never said to use shields on herself in terms of her surviving the thing at the end of Galaxy. All we know is that she used them on Mario and Peach but never on herself. We just assumed she used them on herself each and every time she's been in the remaking of the universe, as that's not her first rodeo. Whether or not you wanna scale the cast to Rosalina is none of my business (well, it is but I won't make it my business), but she shouldn't have been downgraded.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
My opinion has remained the same. Main cast should be 3-C to 3-B, idc which. 3-C if scaling above Hungry Lumas, 3-B if scaling to 1/300-ish of the universal event. Nothing states that Lumas are like the Unown and get stronger en masse, so we can just assume that it took that many of them to perform that uni+ feat. Btw, while the feat itself is uni+ (as time is very clearly affected), a fraction of it should be 3-B, not tier 2.

Also, and this is important, I wanna state that Rosalina is never said to use shields on herself in terms of her surviving the thing at the end of Galaxy. All we know is that she used them on Mario and Peach but never on herself. We just assumed she used them on herself each and every time she's been in the remaking of the universe, as that's not her first rodeo. Whether or not you wanna scale the cast to Rosalina is none of my business (well, it is but I won't make it my business), but she shouldn't have been downgraded.
Click to expand...
I'm so glad you brought this up too. The acknowledgement of her even using a shield is only stated in the prima guides which apparently we can't even use anymore.

Though I think people assume Rosie has that passive shield she has when Mario tries to attack her in gameplay and that this shield apparently was still there during the big bang and reset.

But if we do use the guides, Rosalina only explicitly uses her shield on Mario and Peach so you can assume she like cast it onto them instead
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
My opinion has remained the same. Main cast should be 3-C to 3-B, idc which. 3-C if scaling above Hungry Lumas, 3-B if scaling to 1/300-ish of the universal event. Nothing states that Lumas are like the Unown and get stronger en masse, so we can just assume that it took that many of them to perform that uni+ feat. Btw, while the feat itself is uni+ (as time is very clearly affected), a fraction of it should be 3-B, not tier 2.

Also, and this is important, I wanna state that Rosalina is never said to use shields on herself in terms of her surviving the thing at the end of Galaxy. All we know is that she used them on Mario and Peach but never on herself. We just assumed she used them on herself each and every time she's been in the remaking of the universe, as that's not her first rodeo. Whether or not you wanna scale the cast to Rosalina is none of my business (well, it is but I won't make it my business), but she shouldn't have been downgraded.
Click to expand...
And the hungry Lumas are 3-C because they were shown to be able to create a galaxy each then, correct?
 
Okay. That seems to make sense to me in that case.

So what, if anything, do we need to change based on this thread exactly?
 
I'm honestly not sure why the Power Stars scale to the low end either of making those small black holes The Real Cal Howard calculated, when they are clearly not standard realistic black holes and more like pseudo ones due to cartoonishly spewing out a water stream out of one black hole into another black hole when they should have equal gravity and the only thing evidenced by them being real-ish black holes is the prima guide stating that they have an event horizon where light cannot escape (and goes onto say neither can Mario), being that the prima guide is now discounted....it should be yeeted.
 
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Foxthefox1000 said:
Star Bits are the in lore, canonical sustenance of the Lumas. Hungry Lumas use these to invoke immediate transformations. They require more Star Bits than what is likely required for Grand Stars, as the Toads could only carry single Star Bits in order to form the Grand Star. Grand Stars are superior to Power Stars so Power Stars require even less.
Click to expand...
I've already debunked this, the Grand Star was formed from countless star bits and should be superior to Hungry Lumas/Lumas in general.

Mephistus said:
I'm honestly not sure why the Power Stars scale to the low end either of making those small black holes The Real Cal Howard calculated, when they are clearly not standard realistic black holes and more like pseudo ones due to cartoonishly spewing out a water stream out of one black hole into another black hole when they should have equal gravity and the only thing evidenced by them being real-ish black holes is the prima guide stating that they have an event horizon where light cannot escape (and goes onto say neither can Mario), being that the prima guide is now discounted....it should be yeeted.
Click to expand...
There's one case of that of all the black holes in the game. Meanwhile they're stated to be black holes, act intangible just like black holes and look accurate to how a black hole's event horizon would be expected to look under the game's limitations. I also disagree with the guide not being used, it should just not be taken as a primary source imo
 
I question why we use hungry luma the galaxies they make include power stars before someone says they’re pre existing we don’t have proof they could just as easily be replacements and makes more sense then them creating a perfect pathway to them in their transformation.
 
More details about Black Holes being more like real black holes actually comes from Galaxy 2; pretty sure someone linked a Chuggaconroy video showing the Hawking Radiation thing somewhere in the thread. And there was some legit inspiration from Hawking's studies that the developers took into account making Galaxy 2, though the black hole spewing water seems like an outlier for every other black hole + that game was made before said studies were taken into account. Plus, that specific black hole actually behaves more like a old theoretical White Hole. It used to be common believe that objects sucked into a black whole exit through a white hole in another location, which plenty of stories used to show that, but I cannot judge how accurate that is and more recent studies of course imply that's not.
 
GyroNutz said:
I've already debunked this, the Grand Star was formed from countless star bits and should be superior to Hungry Lumas/Lumas in general.


There's one case of that of all the black holes in the game. Meanwhile they're stated to be black holes, act intangible just like black holes and look accurate to how a black hole's event horizon would be expected to look under the game's limitations. I also disagree with the guide not being used, it should just not be taken as a primary source imo
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You didn't debunk this. "countless" is just a vague claim you're using. We know that Toads can only carry ONE Star Bit at a time and there are definitely a finite amount of Toads in Toad Town. Barely over 100, hell, even 50 in each game we've seen it. Your speculation requires much more assumptions than mine
 
Lou_change said:
I question why we use hungry luma the galaxies they make include power stars before someone says they’re pre existing we don’t have proof they could just as easily be replacements and makes more sense then them creating a perfect pathway to them in their transformation.
Click to expand...
This doesn't support Power Stars being Tier 3 at all. If anything it shows they require less energy as a Luma making a planet also creates a Power Star, and it's common sense that a planet requires massively less energy to make than a galaxy.
 
Ah, my bad. Still, I think everything at least warrants a Power Stars downgrade. The "support" for them scaling to Tier 3 has been shot down with the only potential argument being "well Grand Star are made from countless Star Bits" which is a very extreme assumption and isn't supported by the average population of Toad Town at all, as they only carried singular Star Bits both in the lore illustrations and the game
 


The total number of star bits that fell was countless, but the number that was formed semantically wasn't the sum of those countless gathered there by the toads since there's three toads holding a star bit each right there by the Grand Star that formed. Sticking a number on how many there were combined to make the grand star to be more than that what induces Luma transformation is something I'd have to say is a weak argument when its offscreen.

Actually, for the black hole calculation, it also uses that nonsense calculation method of linearly scaling mass to "find" its "GBE", so it has worse issues than even the fundamental assumption of it being one and I'll retract trying to change anything on it for now.
 
If we disregard Star Bits entirely it doesn't matter either way. Power Stars should still be requiring less energy from the fact one is produced in a planet and galaxy's creation. So again, no matter how you argue it Power Stars should get a downgrade and shouldn't scale to Tier 3 or whatever tier the Grand Stars are.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
You didn't debunk this. "countless" is just a vague claim you're using. We know that Toads can only carry ONE Star Bit at a time and there are definitely a finite amount of Toads in Toad Town. Barely over 100, hell, even 50 in each game we've seen it. Your speculation requires much more assumptions than mine
Click to expand...
Mephistus said:
The total number of star bits that fell was countless, but the number that was formed semantically wasn't the sum of those countless gathered there by the toads since there's three toads holding a star bit each right there by the Grand Star that formed. Sticking a number on how many there were combined to make the grand star to be more than that what induces Luma transformation is something I'd have to say is a weak argument when its offscreen.
Click to expand...
I did debunk this. "Countless" is what it says, and there's no point in mentioning the vast number of star bits that fell if at least a majority of these weren't used to make up the Grand Star. You assume that each Toad only made one trip to collect Star Bits despite the apparent timeframe being over the period of a whole night, and that the total number of Star Bits they can carry is one based on the image, whereas Mario can hold hundreds, if not thousands, at a time.

To clarify, the context in the literal two scenes beforehand is that this particular comet was far larger than anyone previously, and sent countless shooting stars. This is a key indicator that the number of star bits in this festival is directly linked to the number to the number of star bits required to create a Grand Star. My interpretation makes far more sense based on the context provided.
 
Okay. That is probably fine to apply then.
 
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