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Super Mario CRT: Galaxy? I Think Not!

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Tanking black hole suction is invalid, but creating/closing black holes is till fine to calculate AP.
 
So then wouldn't that old calc of the black hole closing in Galaxy 2 still be viable? Or was there a big issue with it? There's also the MP9 one which goes away after his defeat and was likely created by him.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
If I remember right the argument is that black hole feats can't be used for whatever reason. I don't really remember. I just remember people strongly opposing it before as a Tier 4 feat
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Whatever happened to Mario's Low 2-C Ap and infinite speed, too?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
There was also an argument for scaling to the Void with the Pure Hearts.

But this is irrelevant to the current thread. Who all agrees with downgrading 3-C to 4-A
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Well, if you're gonna do that, I'd like to propose bringing back Mario's High 4-C key to where it'd look something like At least High 4-C to 4-A on his profile, since they're apparently isn't a problem with the black hole calc according to DDM.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
That could maybe work. People might bring up "consistency" though
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Haven't black holes usually been consistent in the Super Mario verse, tho? I also found another calc regarding constellations. Can it also be used?
 
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It would work if we can prove those stars are real stars. The game that took place in was inside a cube with an unknown size. Also, it's unclear if the Stars in MP are Power Stars. Though my universal Star Power idea would probably have Power Stars scale to it anyways. But that's also apparently rejected so whatever.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
It would work if we can prove those stars are real stars. The game that took place in was inside a cube with an unknown size. Also, it's unclear if the Stars in MP are Power Stars. Though my universal Star Power idea would probably have Power Stars scale to it anyways. But that's also apparently rejected so whatever.
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Doesn't this count as a power star?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
It would work if we can prove those stars are real stars. The game that took place in was inside a cube with an unknown size. Also, it's unclear if the Stars in MP are Power Stars.
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They 100% should be, I've explained why last time it was brought up but it got ignored.

Anyway, I don't really get the 4-A argument. Yes, galaxies can vary massively in size - that's why we take the Milky Way as a baseline by default. As for timeframes, Hungry Lumas create galaxies almost instantly. Everything else about the galaxy skepticism and whatnot has been argued a lot at this point, and I stand by what I've said previously for that.
 
I've also provided evidence why Grand Stars may not scale above Lumas. The only actual evidence we have is Rosalina's statement but, again, she never actually says galaxies in it and it's also pretty vague, with no distinction between her words in Japanese to imply any rarity whatsoever. The wording of her "stating they're comparable" always seemed weird to me because that's definitely not exactly what she says at all and is more of an inference based on her choice of words in English.

What is shown to us is that Star Bits are used to become a Grand Star in the opening storybook thing which likely required less than you feed Hungry Lumas, and Power Stars are also made with planets and then with galaxies too, implying the Power Star requires less energy to create than both. Not to mention the galaxies created only having a single Power Star pointing to them being smaller than the others and not as developed.

And there's the fact the Grand Star took the entirety of the game to complete Bowser's plan of creating a galaxy while Lumas just do it instantly.

There's a legitimate argument to be made that they simply don't scale to the higher forms of Lumas. And again, if people bring up Bowser not just using a Luma instead, he wouldn't have been aware of their power because he, like us, just got acquainted with the Lumas and Rosalina but unlike us, he didn't stick around.

Though if you do consider these things the true cosmological objects then I have to ask, what is wrong with my 3-B proposal? Using a canon distance counter from Earth to the Reactor and the assumption these galaxies would be similar to the Milky Way? How would a 3-B rating not fit right into place? The Grand Star is responsible for that black hole, the same black hole the Lumas needed to perform a 3-B feat for. Apparently we can scale black hole creation to AP still so what exactly is the problem again?
 
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I'm still for returning Mario's High 4-C key and Pre-Stellar Lifing Strength; also he should have a 4-B key and Stellar Lifting Strength based upon the constellation calc.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I've also provided evidence why Grand Stars may not scale above Lumas. The only actual evidence we have is Rosalina's statement but, again, she never actually says galaxies in it and it's also pretty vague, with no distinction between her words in Japanese to imply any rarity whatsoever. The wording of her "stating they're comparable" always seemed weird to me because that's definitely not exactly what she says at all and is more of an inference based on her choice of words in English.

What is shown to us is that Star Bits are used to become a Grand Star in the opening storybook thing which likely required less than you feed Hungry Lumas, and Power Stars are also made with planets and then with galaxies too, implying the Power Star requires less energy to create than both. Not to mention the galaxies created only having a single Power Star pointing to them being smaller than the others and not as developed.

And there's the fact the Grand Star took the entirety of the game to complete Bowser's plan of creating a galaxy while Lumas just do it instantly.

There's a legitimate argument to be made that they simply don't scale to the higher forms of Lumas. And again, if people bring up Bowser not just using a Luma instead, he wouldn't have been aware of their power because he, like us, just got acquainted with the Lumas and Rosalina but unlike us, he didn't stick around.

Though if you do consider these things the true cosmological objects then I have to ask, what is wrong with my 3-B proposal? Using a canon distance counter from Earth to the Reactor and the assumption these galaxies would be similar to the Milky Way? How would a 3-B rating not fit right into place?
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I'm all for the 3-B key addition, but what does everyone else think?
 
Apparently hax is what's being used to deny 3-B. People in the past used "black hole feats wack" and then "well the Grand Star can't scale to the black hole it was just the Reactor malfunctioning". My whole thing is if it was a threat the Lumas felt the need to sacrifice their entire race just to counter so it doesn't just destroy everything and things can live again, and the Lumas working together is acknowledged as a feat on that tier, then why wouldn't the black hole and thusly the GS that sustained the artificial star it came from scale? I genuinely still don't understand.

But even if it is hax at least still add it to the profile. That's a big noteworthy thing that's still not acknowledged on their profile.

However I should note Galaxies and Planets created by Lumas have enemies and NPCs who live there and have a past or something iirc. There's reason to speculate they may alter like space-time when creating these places and thusly the Reset COULD indeed be in part a space-time manipulation feat.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Apparently hax is what's being used to deny 3-B. People in the past used "black hole feats wack" and then "well the Grand Star can't scale to the black hole it was just the Reactor malfunctioning". My whole thing is if it was a threat the Lumas felt the need to sacrifice their entire race just to counter so it doesn't just destroy everything and things can live again, and the Lumas working together is acknowledged as a feat on that tier, then why wouldn't the black hole and thusly the GS that sustained the artificial star it came from scale? I genuinely still don't understand.

But even if it is hax at least still add it to the profile. That's a big noteworthy thing that's still not acknowledged on their profile.

However I should note Galaxies and Planets created by Lumas have enemies and NPCs who live there and have a past or something iirc. There's reason to speculate they may alter like space-time when creating these places
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Anyone know why Mario's Low 2-C key was removed, btw?
 
It came from the guides, which apparently aren't reliable due to some inconsistencies or mistakes.

And the Japanese statements in the game itself are apparently too vague. It could just be him wanting to conquer the universe rather than destroy and recreate it.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
It came from the guides, which apparently aren't reliable due to some inconsistencies or mistakes.

And the Japanese statements in the game itself are apparently too vague. It could just be him wanting to conquer the universe rather than destroy and recreate it.
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Dunno; I do have a few scans from some wikis for that.
Will update later on.
 
Also, before the question arises because I know people will be like, "Star Bits making Grand Stars? That's dumb headcanon where's the support?"

Here it is. Japanese Version. Clear as day. And I provided the context along with it.

Now I sincerely doubt the Toads could carry more than what Mario can canonically hold given they're shown to like pick up like 1 at a time. Either way, this is likely a low number requirement, whereas Hungry Lumas get fed hundreds to thousands of these before transforming.
 
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Gyro makes sense to me above.

Anyway, what should we more concretely do based on this thread in terms of revisions? It seems like we are just going around in circles in the current Mario threads.
 
Well personally I think I've made a pretty solid stack of reasons why Grand Stars and Power Stars might not scale to the full extent of the Luma's powers with my most recent posts. There's even a canon numerical requirement of a substance that we can compare the creation of a Grand Star and the galaxies Hungry Lumas create to, with the Grand Star most likely being lower.

So scaling to Lumas based on energy required to create is probably not legit, and Rosie's quote was pretty vague anyways.

This makes the only three feats left for the Grand Stars the ability to cross space-time, creating a black hole and a galaxy over the course of the game and not instantly, and making the Beacon shine as bright as a dwarf star.
 
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Okay, and what do our staff members think?
 
To be honest I don't see what they can argue with for this one. The Japanese text and the kanji used are clear as day. Stardust (the shooting stars mentioned in the English galaxy intro) ARE Star Pieces (Star Bits for us). We are also quite literally shown the Toads carrying the things falling from the skies which are Star Bits. And during the game, the night of the festival where these shooting stars (stardust) fall down from the Observatory? These are Star Bits raining down on the Kingdom. It makes sense from every point of view and we have clear confirmation through the Japanese text.

Unless people think the Toads that barely seemed to be capable of holding more than 1 Star Bit at a time somehow hoarded hundreds to thousands of Star Bits at a time where it then became a Grand Star there's likely a discrepancy between the number required to make the Grand Star at the Castle and the number required for Hungry Lumas to become galaxies.

Speaking of that number required to make galaxies, doesn't this imply that with each increasingly high number the Lumas demand the more energy would be needed to create those galaxies and even planets?
 
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Foxthefox1000 said:
To be honest I don't see what they can argue with for this one. The Japanese text and the kanji used are clear as day. Stardust (the shooting stars mentioned in the English galaxy intro) ARE Star Pieces (Star Bits for us). We are also quite literally shown the Toads carrying the things falling from the skies which are Star Bits. And during the game, the night of the festival where these shooting stars (stardust) fall down from the Observatory? These are Star Bits raining down on the Kingdom. It makes sense from every point of view and we have clear confirmation through the Japanese text.

Unless people think the Toads that barely seemed to be capable of holding more than 1 Star Bit at a time somehow hoarded hundreds to thousands of Star Bits at a time where it then became a Grand Star there's likely a discrepancy between the number required to make the Grand Star at the Castle and the number required for Hungry Lumas to become galaxies.

Speaking of that number required to make galaxies, doesn't this imply that with each increasingly high number the Lumas demand the more energy would be needed to create those galaxies and even planets?
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Okay, and what changes do you want to perform exactly? I have a hard time keeping track here, due to the unfocused discussions and juggling many threads at once.
 
Lemme see if I can summarize it well:

1. We make a key for Lumas that gives them their 3-B rating or we add it as a note to the profile on general. Just acknowledge the fact it exists.

2. Get rid of the scaling to Lumas as Rosalina's quote is vague and relies on an interpretation of a minor dialogue change that doesn't even mention galaxies to begin with. What we SHOULD rely on is an actually direct scaling chain involving Star Bits, noting how the Japanese translation and simple narrative context show that Star Bits literally became a Grand Star after a few Toads who could only carry one at a time brought them to the castle, with this number likely being lower than the several hundreds at bare minimum needed for Hungry Lumas to become galaxies. The energy to create them is less than what is required to create galaxies.

However, the Grand Star did in fact power the Reactor and it did in fact sustain that Star and seemed to be what kept it from going supernova and creating the black hole, even if Bowser needed to drain it throughout the course of the game this proves it DOES ultimately have that kind of power. So in reality maybe Tier 3 for Grand Stars can stay.

3. Power Stars also are created with these planets and galaxies the Lumas become, and given the discrepancies between a planet and galaxy as well as Grand Stars being superior to Power Stars, we now know they'd require a small amount of energy involved in these transformations. Let's just give them the benefit of the doubt and give them their next best tier and make them High 4-C again at best, with no reason to scale any higher and no feats on a higher level yet, as the 64 thread might be heading towards a downgrade too and we'd need some kind of tier. Though atm we'd keep them 4-A until the 64 thread is finished. Their profile would need a rewording.

Uh, yeah, I think that covers it. Basically Lumas have everything to gain from this, Power Stars have everything to lose, and Grand Stars would maybe get some rewordings but otherwise be fine.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
What is shown to us is that Star Bits are used to become a Grand Star in the opening storybook thing which likely required less than you feed Hungry Lumas, and Power Stars are also made with planets and then with galaxies too, implying the Power Star requires less energy to create than both. Not to mention the galaxies created only having a single Power Star pointing to them being smaller than the others and not as developed.

And there's the fact the Grand Star took the entirety of the game to complete Bowser's plan of creating a galaxy while Lumas just do it instantly.
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I believe that's an unfounded assumption - it is made clear in the opening that the comet that year was exceptionally large, and carried a countless amount of Star Bits. In the context of Star Bits, that sounds like a lot more than the 300/400 you need to feed a Hungry Luma.

There's also the fact that without the first Grand Star from Gateway Galaxy, or the Power Stars that Bowser stole for that matter, the Lumas on the observatory would have died. Polari explicitly states as much. And we know that previously, from Rosalina's stories, that a luma has transformed into a comet to power the observatory. Oh, and for Bowser's plan, the reactor's collapse that was originally powered by a single Grand Star took hundreds of Lumas to neutralize.

Also keep in mind that Mario passes through tons of realistic-looking galaxies on the world maps that don't contain Power Stars, I don't think that should be an indication to a Galaxy's size.

Finally, this isn't directly related to their power to create celestial bodies and galaxies, but the Lumas that assist Mario on his journey aren't more capable than Mario himself.
 
So what do you think that we should do based on the above discussion and suggestions, Gyro?
 
Antvasima said:
So what do you think that we should do based on the above discussion and suggestions, Gyro?
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I think the Grand Star should keep its rating of 3-C at least, being superior to Lumas, and that Power Stars are still comparable to Lumas. Hard to tell what else is being argued atm really, this thread has gone through a lot of turns so far.
 
It's also said that the Toads themselves brought the Star Bits to the castle, only carrying one at a time. The Star Bits didn't all dump onto the Kingdom and then form a Grand Star. My assumption makes more sense given the context that Toads who can only carry one at a time brought them to the castle. In all iterations of Toad Town it's barely had a hundred Toads occupying it.

I've acknowledged however that Grand Stars can scale above Lumas via other ways, including the Lumas dying without them and the fact it took hundreds to neutralize the feat of one Grand Star. The point of the Star Bit thing was to show the issues with scaling these things to the other transformations of the Luma's. There's no explicit proof they are superior in terms of what's needed to create them, perhaps comparable, but not superior.

But, I still don't agree with Power Stars getting that rating. Nothing shows they're remotely on that level. If only "well Power Stars were needed so they don't die" is the support for that tier we also have to acknowledge Grand Stars are a part of that and could be the main supplement of life, being superior to Power Stars.

Though I'd also like to see the exact quote from Polari about the Stars. But if we acknowledge that a Grand Star is superior to hundreds of Lumas because of the black hole thing why wouldn't the Grand Star scale to that 3-B feat? We're saying it's superior to hundreds of Lumas required to counter the black hole which is acknowledged as a 3-B feat due to the range of space it affected (as well as the fact if we assume they're using most of their power and they all are capable of becoming galaxies that's literally like hundreds of galaxies being created on top of the black hole). To then take a step back and say the Grand Star wouldn't scale seems strange then.
 
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