Super Mario CRT: Galaxy? I Think Not!

[Foxthefox1000]

I might be able to make a list eventually, but I've not considered these big priorities lately. Really all I have to do is collect all of the scans I've posted separately into a big post and then find the English versions too.

I will say though that I still think Power Stars have such a shaky reason to scale to Luma galaxy creation. I can see Grand Stars but Power Stars are specifically already involved in the creation of both planets and galaxies of which the former requires way less Star Bits than what the other side argues Grand Stars would need from the intro because "countless" Toads or whatever. A Power Star being formed in a planet creation and then galaxy creation means that there's no way Power Stars equate to the levels of energy a galaxy needs to be created. This seems pretty clear to me regardless of whatever language the game is in.

And again, the Reactor is a baseline feat. Power Stars already downscale quite a lot, so Tier 3 shouldn't be used anyways regardless.

 

[GyroNutz]

Well, you missed the point with this. They scale due to their Transformation, meaning that if they were to vary in power for their Transformation it would mean the Stars can't scale above them in general, because their general would not be the same as they turning into the Stars.

I mean, this is just the transformation =/= AP argument then.

The cases you dismissed have just as much value as the case here that you portray as valid to apply for their general display; An explosion accompanying a transformation isn't much more significant than a cloud covering it, or the inanimate thing one turned into shaking at the start...

I don't really think any of this is relevant to the case here. You're equating the explosion that happens when Lumas transform into galaxies to a visual effect. The scaling was never about a Luma's physical attacks or whatnot, it was always about the transformation ability, which btw is their far more "general showing", since the only Lumas we see engaging in combat really are young master Luma and the co-op Luma. This whole "Luma transformation not being scaleable" point has been answered earlier in the thread too.

You pointed out that the Grand Star still had life in it in a way that implies that this wouldn't let the Galaxy Reactor have started making Bowser's galaxy, otherwise you can tell me why you pointed that out. I see nowhere where Grand Star still having life was ever stated to relevant to how it could start its job, hence I said that it seemed "like a random rule".

The Galaxy Reactor had started making Bowser's Galaxy - this is self-evident. However the reactor had yet to use the full energy of the Grand Star, hence why it still had life in it. That's on the reactor for not being able to convert the energy in a timely manner.

A computer may need its internal battery and being plugged in a wall. The result, it can be turned on and used like normal with all the information it keeps. Without the internal battery, that can't happen. Without being plugged in, that also can't happen. To what energy do you attribute using the computer with all the information it normally keeps? It's its internal battery and being plugged in, both things.

Again, this example doesn't work here because there's no "plug in the wall". There's no external source shown that you claim is there that is aiding the Grand Star. I used the car example because it's an obvious example of an energy input resulting in a mechanical output, or useful work. The whole point of a reactor is to do exactly that - take the useful energy from the source (stuff like nuclear/chemical reactions in real life) and convert it into a usable form (stuff like electricity/kinetic energy in real life). This point aside, there is no problem with an explanation being "simplistic". It is based on what we are shown, and requires less assumptions than saying that the Galaxy Reactor had an external, additional power source.

I might be able to make a list eventually, but I've not considered these big priorities lately. Really all I have to do is collect all of the scans I've posted separately into a big post and then find the English versions too.

I mean, this is your thread... not trying to pressure you or anything, but you really shouldn't have made the arguments when you had insufficient evidence to back them up. Also, there are numerous more mentions of the scope of SMG being universal other than the few scans you've sent.

I will say though that I still think Power Stars have such a shaky reason to scale to Luma galaxy creation. I can see Grand Stars but Power Stars are specifically already involved in the creation of both planets and galaxies of which the former requires way less Star Bits than what the other side argues Grand Stars would need from the intro because "countless" Toads or whatever. A Power Star being formed in a planet creation and then galaxy creation means that there's no way Power Stars equate to the levels of energy a galaxy needs to be created. This seems pretty clear to me regardless of whatever language the game is in.

Hungry Lumas don't create Power Stars, at the very least not when they create planets. The Power Stars inside the galaxies you visit have already been observed before Hungry Lumas transform. I also don't get how the Star Bit stuff would debunk Power Star scaling.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a few notes; Transformation and Transmutation are two widely different things. The latter is just hax where as the former is something that either can be AP or at the very least could amplify Attack Potency. Whether or not someone's naturally X tier, the character in question would be X tier in a form that would make them into the size where DT's GPE calculator formula would net them that high. Though, it can also be argued it uses up a lot of energy to reach that size for some characters meaning they can still have the same pool of energy naturally. And even some characters capable of growing large size have often been just as capable of outputting all that energy in normal size as they are in giant size.

And based on the recent info Gyro gave, it looks more like Lumas don't create the power stars persay, but various power stars are just floating in outerspace but a galaxy surrounds it when Lumas from those galaxies to give Mario a place to have solid ground so he can stand and collect them.

 

[Eficiente]

I don't really think any of this is relevant to the case here. You're equating the explosion that happens when Lumas transform into galaxies to a visual effect. The scaling was never about a Luma's physical attacks or whatnot, it was always about the transformation ability, which btw is their far more "general showing", since the only Lumas we see engaging in combat really are young master Luma and the co-op Luma. This whole "Luma transformation not being scaleable" point has been answered earlier in the thread too.

The examples I gave weren't them as in mere visual effect but things that really do happen, hence one would see them and think "well this happened, but it doesn't scale to their base". There is still no reason to scale the Lumas in their regular form to whatever they turn into when all of it varies so much in power, from small planets, comets, real planets, stars and galaxies, the reason why Power Stars scale is just because Lumas can turn into it, which is meaningless. Idk what you mean by the last part, how was it answered earlier in the thread.

The Galaxy Reactor had started making Bowser's Galaxy - this is self-evident. However the reactor had yet to use the full energy of the Grand Star, hence why it still had life in it. That's on the reactor for not being able to convert the energy in a timely manner.

But where was it ever stated that it needed to take away the Grand Star's life first as opposed to just having it caught like other machines and bosses?

Again, this example doesn't work here because there's no "plug in the wall". There's no external source shown that you claim is there that is aiding the Grand Star. I used the car example because it's an obvious example of an energy input resulting in a mechanical output, or useful work. The whole point of a reactor is to do exactly that - take the useful energy from the source (stuff like nuclear/chemical reactions in real life) and convert it into a usable form (stuff like electricity/kinetic energy in real life). This point aside, there is no problem with an explanation being "simplistic". It is based on what we are shown, and requires less assumptions than saying that the Galaxy Reactor had an external, additional power source.

The example puts the Grand Star as the plug in the wall and unknown whether or not the Galaxy Reactor gave its own energy to contribute on top of it, as the Galaxy Reactor is the thing that does the job and the Grand Star gives power. Use a car as an illustration of how the Grand Star gives all the power has no reason to be accurate.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I guess I'll revive this because people hold some issues with Galaxy being the rating for everyone now. I still don't agree with Gyro.

Assuming the Power Stars existed already in space and they form the matter around it is literally unfounded. We SEE planets get born and the Power Stars are non-existent until the planets get birthed. It's far easier and way more reasonable to assume the Lumas were the cause of the Power Stars showing up, as finishing the missions of those planets/galaxies can cause one to appear, showing a clear link between the two. If they just always existed then performing tasks needed to spawn them from a newly created celestial body wouldn't be needed.

I think Mario has some issues of the tiers being reliant on word of mouth by the supporters. Any cursory glance into the actual frats and reasonings with context from the games shows that there's a lot of flaws in the logic used.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

No offense, but there's a lot of Kanji words that are used interchangeably that can mean galaxy or Universe. I forgot if it was "Ginga" or "Uchuu", but the word in question more so means "Cosmos" or "Outerspace" but is often used interchangeably to mean galaxy or Universe. Besides, "Center of the galaxy" literally makes 0 sense within the context of the rest of the game. Because center of what galaxy exactly? Especially since Mario has been hopping to many other galaxies throughout his journey. Why would the center of the Milky Way Galaxy be so much farther away than all those other galaxies let alone the edge of the universe? Earth is also closer to the center of the galaxy than it is the edge of the galaxy, so regardless of attempting to retranslate it, that one specifically is like the ultimate loophole and expresses 2+2 =/= 4 levels of inaccuracy.

Not to mention, I'm getting really tired of how Foxthefox's attitude whenever he links a alleged translation. Because he keeps acting like his translated text is the most objectively accurate translation; when there are a lot of translators who argue otherwise. There's no such thing as an objectively accurate translation, and that's why English localizations are honestly being downplayed. The plot of Mario's games have always been relatively simple stories, and trying to make all these Japanese translation contradictions and trying to force the mindset that your own is the most accurate by far is just overcomplicating issues that aren't meant to be complicated at all. While I'm not agreeing 100% with Dino's decision to only use English localizations, I definitely do not agree with the opposite extreme to never use English localizations either. If words and phrases are too interchangeable to get proper words, such as words with flexible meanings and definitions. Then English localizations appears to be the translations that knows what it wants to say for English audiences. Because using Google+ to objectively say Hoshi means star is one thing, but if you look up Hoshi in a Japanese dictionary, the definition refers to celestial bodies in outer space in general, not just the sun or various stars; meaning meteors, planets and moons are often called stars by Japanese people.

In other words, I have to believe GyroNuts here.

Also, gonna quote this because if you subscribe to the same reasonings within this very statement DDM, then why don't you support Universal Mario? You ended up rescinding to the downgrades using Japanese dialogue for many other feats but now it's suddenly an issue because it'd downgrade the verse further? Stay consistent. I see you using interpretation excuses to support the 2-B ratings in the other thread, too. It comes off as very hypocritical.

Going by what you've stated in this thread and the other thread, it's okay to use English localizations and the guides now? So we can make Mario Tier 2 again, right? If we're making these things suddenly applicable now then should I edit the Op yet again and make this a tier 2 upgrade?

 

[GyroNutz]

The examples I gave weren't them as in mere visual effect but things that really do happen, hence one would see them and think "well this happened, but it doesn't scale to their base". There is still no reason to scale the Lumas in their regular form to whatever they turn into when all of it varies so much in power, from small planets, comets, real planets, stars and galaxies, the reason why Power Stars scale is just because Lumas can turn into it, which is meaningless. Idk what you mean by the last part, how was it answered earlier in the thread.

Your examples aren't relevant to this case. A Luma turns into a galaxy through an explosion, that's a clear indicator of energy being required. How would that feat not be attributed to their 'base' form?

But where was it ever stated that it needed to take away the Grand Star's life first as opposed to just having it caught like other machines and bosses?

The Grand Star still having life -> not all of its energy has been expended. I hope this is obvious.

The example puts the Grand Star as the plug in the wall and unknown whether or not the Galaxy Reactor gave its own energy to contribute on top of it, as the Galaxy Reactor is the thing that does the job and the Grand Star gives power. Use a car as an illustration of how the Grand Star gives all the power has no reason to be accurate.

A reactor's purpose is to draw energy from its reactants. It does not create its own energy otherwise and there is no indication of an external power source like you seem to be claiming. The burden of proof would be on you to claim this. I used a car as it is a simple case of an energy source (fuel in an engine) providing a physical output (motion of the car). And honestly this is still lowballing the feat, as no reactor/engine in real life is 100% efficient.

Assuming the Power Stars existed already in space and they form the matter around it is literally unfounded. We SEE planets get born and the Power Stars are non-existent until the planets get birthed. It's far easier and way more reasonable to assume the Lumas were the cause of the Power Stars showing up, as finishing the missions of those planets/galaxies can cause one to appear, showing a clear link between the two. If they just always existed then performing tasks needed to spawn them from a newly created celestial body wouldn't be needed.

Again, the whole plot of the game is that the comet observatory uses star power to look for other Power Stars in the galaxies. It would not identify a missing power star in a Galaxy if that power star didn't even exist at that point. And I don't see how that major plot point would contradict anything - Mario would have no way of reaching said Power Stars without the Hungry Luma's help, and the majority of the time conditions on the planet need to be met for the Power Star to reveal itself (i.e. all the Goombas on Space Junk's planet need to be defeated).

I think Mario has some issues of the tiers being reliant on word of mouth by the supporters. Any cursory glance into the actual frats and reasonings with context from the games shows that there's a lot of flaws in the logic used.

I pointed out the context of the game and you ignored it. Sweeping comments like these will do you no favours.

Also, gonna quote this because if you subscribe to the same reasonings within this very statement DDM, then why don't you support Universal Mario? You ended up rescinding to the downgrades using Japanese dialogue for many other feats but now it's suddenly an issue because it'd downgrade the verse further? Stay consistent. I see you using interpretation excuses to support the 2-B ratings in the other thread, too. It comes off as very hypocritical.

Ad hominem, plus you're ignoring his main issue. Japanese translations can be quite subjective, and when there's significant confusion when it comes to what the Japanese words are actually saying then it should be fine to use the English localization.

Also if it's not already apparent, you continuously changing the OP is what has made this almost year long thread so hard to evaluate. If you really want to revive this issue and still aren't satisfied with my explanations, then I suggest making a new thread with concise, backed up arguments based on what you're actually proposing.

 

[Omnificence]

Still think we should give Mario a 3-B key and an increase in Lifting Strength.

I say 3-B because it would depend on the amount of power stars Mario holds if the power stars were ranked at 3-C and Mario had more than one. Make it look a little something like this: "At least 3-C, likely 3-B"

And if I'm being honest, Mario should also be given Stellar Lifting Strength should we take this calculation into account.

 

[Antvasima]

Also if it's not already apparent, you continuously changing the OP is what has made this almost year long thread so hard to evaluate. If you really want to revive this issue and still aren't satisfied with my explanations, then I suggest making a new thread with concise, backed up arguments based on what you're actually proposing.

So is there anything left to do here, @GyroNutz and @DarkDragonMedeus , or should we close this thread?

 

[Omnificence]

I was also thinking of making a blog for a common feat of creating galaxies.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems best to wait with that. We tend to scale galactic feats in a self-evident manner.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'd still like an answer as to why suddenly guides and English localizations are completely fine when a good bit of the downgrades that happened recently for the verse relied on the opposite being true for the verse. I can easily change this to a Low 2-C support thread or at least Uni if we can use guides now. Even throwing out guides anyone you meet will tell you that the ending events of Galaxy showed the universe being reset, and that Galaxy 2 has you exploring the new universe. How this isn't just naturally Tier 2 because we're the only place that seems to want to deny it being universe is beyond me.

And again, I'm still not seeing the argument for Power Stars scaling to Galaxy. Not only do Lumas need more Star Bits to become a Galaxy than a Planet, but a Power Star is created in both of these with them, implying Power Stars require less. There is no proof Power Stars exist prior to their transformation, and I'm still not sure why we're fine with accepting blatant headcanons. Rosalina's statement doesn't explicitly state Power Stars as the most superior transformation. Yes, they're more rare, but this could be because the universe naturally doesn't need many Power Stars as opposed to the trillions of celestial bodies, don't you think? It makes less sense to assume it's relating to the energy levels than simply noting rarity and levels of importance.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, gonna quote this because if you subscribe to the same reasonings within this very statement DDM, then why don't you support Universal Mario? You ended up rescinding to the downgrades using Japanese dialogue for many other feats but now it's suddenly an issue because it'd downgrade the verse further? Stay consistent. I see you using interpretation excuses to support the 2-B ratings in the other thread, too. It comes off as very hypocritical.

Going by what you've stated in this thread and the other thread, it's okay to use English localizations and the guides now? So we can make Mario Tier 2 again, right? If we're making these things suddenly applicable now then should I edit the Op yet again and make this a tier 2 upgrade?

Gyro already explained how there was an Ad Hominen there, but there's also a major strawman. First of all, I never had a problem against Universal Mario, that was all of the other staff members including Dino Ranger Black. My actual thoughts on Universal base Mario are more or less neutral and always have been, but I never agreed with the reasoning for the downgrades. Also, the rules keep changing left and right, so I can't be blamed too much for not being consistent especially if there are too many U-turns left and right and especially if their are loopholes and how quickly it went from "English localizations equals downgrades while fanmade Japanese translations supports upgrades" to "English localization equals upgrades while fanmade Japanese translations supports downgrades". But the worst part is clearly the anti-middle ground mindset tbh.

I'd still like an answer as to why suddenly guides and English localizations are completely fine when a good bit of the downgrades that happened recently for the verse relied on the opposite being true for the verse. I can easily change this to a Low 2-C support thread or at least Uni if we can use guides now. Even throwing out guides anyone you meet will tell you that the ending events of Galaxy showed the universe being reset, and that Galaxy 2 has you exploring the new universe. How this isn't just naturally Tier 2 because we're the only place that seems to want to deny it being universe is beyond me.

I never agreed with rejecting the secondary canon guidebook to begin with, but I did think it should have been read more thoroughly. And Dino was the one who proposed that we only use English localization from now on, which I never fully agreed but considered that Kanji words with translations too flexible should still to what English text said in lack of better options. Kanji mentions Bowser creating a Universe when the Galaxy Reactor Galaxy was formed when English just said galaxy. But "Center of the galaxy" is factually incorrect because why would the center of the Milky Way galaxy be further away than the numerous other galaxies put together including various galaxies located at the edge of the universe. Which English localization clearly said center of the universe, which is far more believable.

As for the creation of the Universe, it was agreed by other staff members it was 113 Power Stars + 7 Grand Stars + bunch of Lumas all getting into the black hole was what gave it the power to destroy and rebirth the universe. Guidebook included, it was still technically a unity based power up. Also, there are still other Universal feats from other Mario games that I still think were rejected for awful reasons; mainly Black Jewel's feat.

And again, I'm still not seeing the argument for Power Stars scaling to Galaxy. Not only do Lumas need more Star Bits to become a Galaxy than a Planet, but a Power Star is created in both of these with them, implying Power Stars require less. There is no proof Power Stars exist prior to their transformation, and I'm still not sure why we're fine with accepting blatant headcanons. Rosalina's statement doesn't explicitly state Power Stars as the most superior transformation. Yes, they're more rare, but this could be because the universe naturally doesn't need many Power Stars as opposed to the trillions of celestial bodies, don't you think? It makes less sense to assume it's relating to the energy levels than simply noting rarity and levels of importance.

Gyro already pointed some common sense. But all Mario would need to do is just fuel the Observatory with Star Bits if that's all it takes to form Power Stars. And the purpose of Power Stars and Grand Stars was to fuel the Observatory to travel the universe and save Peach from Bowser. Not to mention Lumas can already travel at Massively FTL+ normally and all that. But still, Lumas have often turned back into Lumas despite already transforming into galaxies, black holes, or Power Stars.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean I’m still for uni Mario…

 

[Omnificence]

I mean I’m still for uni Mario…

Me too.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that @DarkDragonMedeus makes sense above. What do you and @GyroNutz think that we should do here?

 

[GyroNutz]

And again, I'm still not seeing the argument for Power Stars scaling to Galaxy. Not only do Lumas need more Star Bits to become a Galaxy than a Planet, but a Power Star is created in both of these with them, implying Power Stars require less. There is no proof Power Stars exist prior to their transformation, and I'm still not sure why we're fine with accepting blatant headcanons.

I've already gone over this - the comet observatory only works by identifying previously existing Power Stars and sending Mario there. This isn't headcanon, this is a plot point established within the first 20 or so minutes of the game. Stop repeating this point.

And if I'm being honest, Mario should also be given Stellar Lifting Strength should we take this calculation into account.

Something something Power Stars from Mario Party aren't the same as Power Stars from Mario 64 + Galaxy. It's pretty easy to debunk if you want to make the thread.

What do you and @GyroNutz think that we should do here?

Thread's going nowhere, and it's almost impossible to evaluate at this stage even for those of us who participated in it. I see no issue with closing the thread and keeping the statistics as they are currently.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so then. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.