Super Revision Bros (4-A proposals, Grand Star key, and two calculations)

[Omnificence]

Summary​

As the title implies, for this thread, I'll attempt to bring back the Multi-Solar System rating for the Super Mario Bros based upon different proposals I thought of and the Grand Star key along with two new calculations I did for the series. Without further ado, let's-a go!

​

Multi-Solar System AP​

Proposal: 4-A via Creation, Destruction, Death, etc.​

This was discussed in a previous thread when I was arguing for different tiers after the downgrade. First, let's take a look at some of the scans and instances where Multi-Solar System level AP is supposedly displayed:

• In Yoshi's Story, Baby Bowser transforms Yoshi's Island into a pocket reality with a starry sky.
• In Super Mario RPG, after Exor's death, it is revealed that he affected the planet, Star Road, the moon, and even outer space coupled with tens of stars.
• In Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam, Paper Mario has an attack with his Trio Meteor which creates a realm with quite a few stars in it.
• Millennium Star, the final boss of Mario Party 3, is capable of creating a background full of stars.

These aren't all of the 4-A feats I found in the series; just a few. Before anybody asks... No, we are NOT proposing 4-A striking strength and durability... at least not yet. Instead, we're applying the 4-A rating to the AP for those who have displayed these feats in the series via certain abilities such as Creation, Environmental Destruction, Death, etc. For example, Exor would be placed at 4-A AP via death due to affecting tens of stars upon his defeat. In contrast, characters such as Paper Mario and the Millennium Star would be placed at 4-A via the Creation of realms with backgrounds of starry skies.

Agree: Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus,
Disagree:
Neutral:

Grand Star​

Why should characters have 3-C ratings again?​

The reasoning is the same as in the previous thread when I proposed bringing back the Power Star key for everybody. The whole objective of the Super Mario Galaxy games is to collect as many Power Stars as you can so you can face off against Bowser who is amped by a Grand Star. As I stated before, Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and used them to obtain the form they take now. This should mean that the Grand Stars function in the same way that Power Stars do whenever users of them collect and draw power from them.

For this reason, I suggest we give everyone a Grand Star key and/or "up to 3-C with enough Power Stars" for their Power Star key.

Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Adding two new calculations to Mario's profile​

Recently, I did two calculations from Super Mario Land to further justify the current 6-C and Massively FTL+ ratings the cast currently has. They have already been evaluated once and two other CGMs on the forums don't seem to have a problem with them. I was going to also calculate several other FTL feats for the series, but it will take me some time to find them.

Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Conclusion​

There are several other reasons I could list as to why the 4-A and 3-C ratings should be brought back, but as of now, I think the ones I listed should be enough. Plus, I think we should emphasize more on the characters' base statistics with more calculations as I believe it would justify the tiering they are currently at now.

Here are the proposed changes to Mario's profile should this get accepted.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Conclusion​

There are several other reasons I could list as to why the 4-A and 3-C ratings should be brought back, but as of now, I think the ones I listed should be enough. Plus, I think we should emphasize more on the characters' base statistics with more calculations as I believe it would justify the tiering they are currently at now.

I believe putting everything on the table would be better, but that's just me

great work

 

[Psychomaster35]

I honestly still believe Mario should be solidly within tier 4-3 in base and that his current rating feels downplayed at the moment, but for now, I agree with the proposals.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Aight cool

 

[Omnificence]

I honestly still believe Mario should be solidly within tier 4-3 in base and that his current rating feels downplayed at the moment, but for now, I agree with the proposals.

Yeah, I'm working on another thread for the rescaling, but for now, I just wanted to return what I thought was the most important.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The proposals look good overall.

I don't understand what happened after Exor's death though. He "affected" those locations in what way?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm iffy on Exor but the rest seem fine. There's enough of these creation feats to warrant this sort of thing, though I'd personally recommend that instead of these different descriptions, they should all just be "4-A via Environmental Destruction" since that's what the term is used for

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

In Super Mario RPG, after Exor's death, it is revealed that he affected the planet, Star Road, the moon, and even outer space coupled with tens of stars.

This is Multi-Stellar Range instead of Attack Potency.

Will comment on the rest later.

 

[Omnificence]

This is Multi-Stellar Range instead of Attack Potency.

Okay, thanks

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm also iffy about the Exor example being 4-A, but I do agree with everything else.

 

[LuckyEmile]

This all seems pretty good, we also know from the Super Mario Bros Encyclopedia that King Kaliente's Grand Star state is indeed powered-up too, so don't see any contentions with that idea. However, maybe the Grand Star key's rating could use some work (the preview profile just say "Galaxy level" without any sort of verification or explanation, so pretty barebones and would leave people wondering without knowing the information provided here).

Baby Bowser, Exor, PaMa and False Millenium Star's ratings all look good, but hearing "tier via creation" is kind of wild! I guess it's a safe bet to introduce this sort of thing back into profiles though, so it's fine.

Good job on the thread!

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Also i should point out that shouldnt exor has multi stellar range via self destruction or with his death ?

 

[LuckyEmile]

I mean, I guess they'd all be on Multi Stellar range due to having stuff on that level, no?

 

[Armorchompy]

Gimme a bit

 

[Chariot190]

Ill reply, later or tomorrow, theres one or two things I need confirmation on it's literally just like one or two questions dont get up in arms.
Im busy today tho so...

 

[Armorchompy]

• In Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam, Paper Mario has an attack with his Trio Meteor which creates a realm with quite a few stars in it.

I think this is canonically just dimensional travel? I'd have to check but can't right now, gimme a bit. Could also just be a pretty background.

These aren't all of the 4-A feats I found in the series; just a few. Before anybody asks... No, we are NOT proposing 4-A striking strength and durability... at least not yet. Instead, we're applying the 4-A rating to the AP for those who have displayed these feats in the series via certain abilities such as Creation, Environmental Destruction, Death, etc. For example, Exor would be placed at 4-A AP via death due to affecting tens of stars upon his defeat. In contrast, characters such as Paper Mario and the Millennium Star would be placed at 4-A via the Creation of realms with backgrounds of starry skies.

You make it pretty clear that you plan to. I don't oppose adding them as ED but I would make it clear that I do not see any way in which they do scale. I'm sure we disagree there but I'd advise you to make a very thorough argument when you do.

The reasoning is the same as in the previous thread when I proposed bringing back the Power Star key for everybody. The whole objective of the Super Mario Galaxy games is to collect as many Power Stars as you can so you can face off against Bowser who is amped by a Grand Star. As I stated before, Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and used them to obtain the form they take now. This should mean that the Grand Stars function in the same way that Power Stars do whenever users of them collect and draw power from them.

I had a whole thing in the downgrade thread that I'm just going to repost

• "In 64 and Galaxy, Mario is (in base) capable of fighting foes that gain a massive power increase from Power Stars, despite some of them being already physically superior to him without need of buffs:
  • Bowser, who is almost universally portrayed as superior, though comparable, to Mario, without need of upgrades, is the biggest example, but there are others. Mario even fights Giant Bowser in Galaxy/Galaxy 2 where his buff (Grand Star) is even superior to a Power Star's. Taken at face value, this would give us a scaling chain of: Mario =< Bowser << Power Star Bowser << Grand Star Bowser >= Mario, which obviously makes no sense.
  • King Boo is fought in Mario 64 DS, and is such a powerful and prominently reoccurring villain that I don't think it's necessary to post scans of him being capable of easily threatening the cast in base.
  • Eyerok is fought as a boss again in Mario Kart DS, and defeated in a very similar manner. Notably, he is destroyed, and releases no stars at all.
  • King Bob-Omb/Big Bob-Omb serves as a boss battle in Mario Party 9, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Kart DS and Mario & Luigi Paper Jam. In all of those games he is capable of threatening the main cast (sometimes several at once) without need of Power Stars.
• Not only that, but the portrayal of characters who are receiving this amp that is allegedly universal between one another is very inconsistent, as is Mario's scaling to them.
  
  • Baron Brr, Wiggler, Bugaboom, Goomboss, King Kaliente, Major Burrows, Mandibug Stack, Topmaniac, Glamdozer can all be harmed normally.
  • Big Bullies, Chill Bullies, Mr. I, Eyerok, Whomp King, Dino Piranha, Bouldergeist, Mega-Leg, Tarantox, Boomsday Machine, Digga-Leg, Gobblegut, Megahammer, Peewee Piranha, Rollodillo, Sorbetti and Squizzard are all too powerful for Mario to face directly, forcing him to exploit their weaknesses to deal damage.
  • Big/King Bob-Omb is fought, but he seems to be treating this as more of a gentlemanly contest than a genuine fight, given that if you throw him off the top of the hill, he says that you must fight him with honor, considers the match null, and starts the fight again, seemingly having taken no actual damage. Additionally, he is capable of overpowering Mario with ease, and must be grabbed from behind, where he cannot reach, to lift him.
  • Mario can straight-up one-shot Giant Piranha Plants amped by a Power Star."

They are amped it's just really inconsistent and minor, and it clearly doesn't amp by the full power of the Stars given how inconsistent they are.

Recently, I did two calculations from Super Mario Land to further justify the current 6-C and Massively FTL+ ratings the cast currently has. They have already been evaluated once and two other CGMs on the forums don't seem to have a problem with them. I was going to also calculate several other FTL feats for the series, but it will take me some time to find them.

There is no reason to assume the ship is going at full speed when fought. The cloud... sure, but it'd just be ED.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Agree with everything

 

[Omnificence]

You make it pretty clear that you plan to. I don't oppose adding them as ED but I would make it clear that I do not see any way in which they do scale. I'm sure we disagree there but I'd advise you to make a very thorough argument when you do.

sigh Why do I even try to be friendly with you?

Okay, I'm gonna act my age and ask you as politely as I can... would you please not bring that attitude in and try to act mature? Why do you have to be so defensive and oppose almost every proposition I bring for the Super Mario Bros? Sure, I plan on bringing in different base statistics for the profiles sometime in the future, but that's what revision threads are for. Why do you hate the verse and why are you so against it being powerful? You do realize that every verse in fiction struggles with anti-feats, right? If you're aiming for accuracy on this wiki, then isn't it only fair if you give every other franchise the same treatment as the Mario Bros?

Please, just stop acting like that. I tried to make amends with you several times. Nobody is doing anything to your ratings; we're just trying to bring things back

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Could also just be a pretty background.

With starry skies yes !


Also Jt he is NOT being aggressive with you. I dont know how you concluded that… :/

 

[Chariot190]

Dog, he aint being aggressive? He's literally just saying he's sure you disagree, and to make sure your CRT aint half baked when the time comes?

Also like, Armor aint some boogyman out to get Nintendo verses like Mario, idk why people think that, he usually asks for opinions on stuff and looks for potential good feats too...

then isn't it only fair if you give every other franchise the same treatment as the Mario Bros?

He does, he aint out to get the funny plumber my dude

 

[Omnificence]

NOT being aggressive with you

Dog, he aint being aggressive?

I didn't say he was acting aggressive. I just politely asked him to not act the way he was in that reply

 

[StretchSebe]

Summary​

As the title implies, for this thread, I'll attempt to bring back the Multi-Solar System rating for the Super Mario Bros based upon different proposals I thought of and the Grand Star key along with two new calculations I did for the series. Without further ado, let's-a go!

​

Multi-Solar System AP​

Proposal: 4-A via Creation, Destruction, Death, etc.​

This was discussed in a previous thread when I was arguing for different tiers after the downgrade. First, let's take a look at some of the scans and instances where Multi-Solar System level AP is supposedly displayed:

• In Yoshi's Story, Baby Bowser transforms Yoshi's Island into a pocket reality with a starry sky.
• In Super Mario RPG, after Exor's death, it is revealed that he affected the planet, Star Road, the moon, and even outer space coupled with tens of stars.
• In Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam, Paper Mario has an attack with his Trio Meteor which creates a realm with quite a few stars in it.
• Millennium Star, the final boss of Mario Party 3, is capable of creating a background full of stars.

These aren't all of the 4-A feats I found in the series; just a few. Before anybody asks... No, we are NOT proposing 4-A striking strength and durability... at least not yet. Instead, we're applying the 4-A rating to the AP for those who have displayed these feats in the series via certain abilities such as Creation, Environmental Destruction, Death, etc. For example, Exor would be placed at 4-A AP via death due to affecting tens of stars upon his defeat. In contrast, characters such as Paper Mario and the Millennium Star would be placed at 4-A via the Creation of realms with backgrounds of starry skies.

Agree: Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus,
Disagree:
Neutral:

Grand Star​

Why should characters have 3-C ratings again?​

The reasoning is the same as in the previous thread when I proposed bringing back the Power Star key for everybody. The whole objective of the Super Mario Galaxy games is to collect as many Power Stars as you can so you can face off against Bowser who is amped by a Grand Star. As I stated before, Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and used them to obtain the form they take now. This should mean that the Grand Stars function in the same way that Power Stars do whenever users of them collect and draw power from them.

For this reason, I suggest we give everyone a Grand Star key and/or "up to 3-C with enough Power Stars" for their Power Star key.

Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Adding two new calculations to Mario's profile​

Recently, I did two calculations from Super Mario Land to further justify the current 6-C and Massively FTL+ ratings the cast currently has. They have already been evaluated once and two other CGMs on the forums don't seem to have a problem with them. I was going to also calculate several other FTL feats for the series, but it will take me some time to find them.

Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Conclusion​

There are several other reasons I could list as to why the 4-A and 3-C ratings should be brought back, but as of now, I think the ones I listed should be enough. Plus, I think we should emphasize more on the characters' base statistics with more calculations as I believe it would justify the tiering they are currently at now.

Here are the proposed changes to Mario's profile should this get accepted.

Agree with everything. These are very clear examples of multi-stellar feats. Multiple solar systems do make for a pretty backdrop. Also with the evaluated calculations and Grand Star stuff considering their relevance in Galaxy 1 and 2.

 

[Lou_change]

• In Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam, Paper Mario has an attack with his Trio Meteor which creates a realm with quite a few stars in it.
• Millennium Star, the final boss of Mario Party 3, is capable of creating a background full of stars.

It could be like a painting every other area created by a trio attack has a paper aesthetic

Mario Party 3 took place in a toy box everyone was shrunken into

 

[Bernkastelll]

Summary​

As the title implies, for this thread, I'll attempt to bring back the Multi-Solar System rating for the Super Mario Bros based upon different proposals I thought of and the Grand Star key along with two new calculations I did for the series. Without further ado, let's-a go!

​

Multi-Solar System AP​

Proposal: 4-A via Creation, Destruction, Death, etc.​

This was discussed in a previous thread when I was arguing for different tiers after the downgrade. First, let's take a look at some of the scans and instances where Multi-Solar System level AP is supposedly displayed:

• In Yoshi's Story, Baby Bowser transforms Yoshi's Island into a pocket reality with a starry sky.
• In Super Mario RPG, after Exor's death, it is revealed that he affected the planet, Star Road, the moon, and even outer space coupled with tens of stars.
• In Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam, Paper Mario has an attack with his Trio Meteor which creates a realm with quite a few stars in it.
• Millennium Star, the final boss of Mario Party 3, is capable of creating a background full of stars.

These aren't all of the 4-A feats I found in the series; just a few. Before anybody asks... No, we are NOT proposing 4-A striking strength and durability... at least not yet. Instead, we're applying the 4-A rating to the AP for those who have displayed these feats in the series via certain abilities such as Creation, Environmental Destruction, Death, etc. For example, Exor would be placed at 4-A AP via death due to affecting tens of stars upon his defeat. In contrast, characters such as Paper Mario and the Millennium Star would be placed at 4-A via the Creation of realms with backgrounds of starry skies.

Agree: Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus,
Disagree:
Neutral:

Grand Star​

Why should characters have 3-C ratings again?​

The reasoning is the same as in the previous thread when I proposed bringing back the Power Star key for everybody. The whole objective of the Super Mario Galaxy games is to collect as many Power Stars as you can so you can face off against Bowser who is amped by a Grand Star. As I stated before, Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and used them to obtain the form they take now. This should mean that the Grand Stars function in the same way that Power Stars do whenever users of them collect and draw power from them.

For this reason, I suggest we give everyone a Grand Star key and/or "up to 3-C with enough Power Stars" for their Power Star key.

Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Adding two new calculations to Mario's profile​

Recently, I did two calculations from Super Mario Land to further justify the current 6-C and Massively FTL+ ratings the cast currently has. They have already been evaluated once and two other CGMs on the forums don't seem to have a problem with them. I was going to also calculate several other FTL feats for the series, but it will take me some time to find them.

Agree: @Psychomaster35, @CloverDragon03, @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Conclusion​

There are several other reasons I could list as to why the 4-A and 3-C ratings should be brought back, but as of now, I think the ones I listed should be enough. Plus, I think we should emphasize more on the characters' base statistics with more calculations as I believe it would justify the tiering they are currently at now.

Here are the proposed changes to Mario's profile should this get accepted.

I think I'm towards agreeing but I have some questions

 

[LuckyEmile]

I think I'm towards agreeing but I have some questions

I wonder what they are :0

 

[Armorchompy]

sigh Why do I even try to be friendly with you?

Okay, I'm gonna act my age and ask you as politely as I can... would you please not bring that attitude in and try to act mature? Why do you have to be so defensive and oppose almost every proposition I bring for the Super Mario Bros? Sure, I plan on bringing in different base statistics for the profiles sometime in the future, but that's what revision threads are for. Why do you hate the verse and why are you so against it being powerful? You do realize that every verse in fiction struggles with anti-feats, right?

I have genuinely no clue what you're talking about. Like this isn't a bit I don't even know what I supposedly did wrong. You literally said "yet", which is why I concluded that you do plan to apply them to stats: because you literally said you would.

If you're aiming for accuracy on this wiki, then isn't it only fair if you give every other franchise the same treatment as the Mario Bros?

Every franchise I have scaled? I do. I try at least.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I wonder what they are :0

​

• In Yoshi's Story, Baby Bowser transforms Yoshi's Island into a pocket reality with a starry sky.

what are the evidences that this specific one are real stars? I get the other ones, but this one seems rather weak in terms of evidence.

 

[Omnificence]

I have genuinely no clue what you're talking about. Like this isn't a bit I don't even know what I supposedly did wrong. You literally said "yet", which is why I concluded that you do plan to apply them to stats: because you literally said you would.

Look, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but to be fair, there's a history of you saying things I find questionably offensive such as saying my calculations contain "shoddy logic" and "see how they cook you". I do plan to apply them to stats, just not for this thread.

 

[Bernkastelll]

what are the evidences that this specific one are real stars? I get the other ones, but this one seems rather weak in terms of evidence.

@Omnificence

 

[Chariot190]

saying my calculations contain "shoddy logic"

That's his job though, hell i do the same but worse

Uh anyway, for Meteor Trio, and Millennium Star, do they state that theyre making a dimension or pocket whatever? If so it should be fine but if not, we'd need to go through the alternatives and figure out what's more likely if at all.

 

[Omnificence]

That's his job though, hell i do the same but worse

No, your job is to calculate feats and evaluate the ones people calculate to see and point out where they went wrong. It shouldn't always involve insults towards someone's inability to perform one correctly. I know you and your friend might not mean the things you type, and I understand your frustrations when someone doesn't follow through on certain instructions, but it doesn't mean you should take it out on someone for not doing work properly. I'll just leave it at that; I don't wanna derail any further.

Anyway, I'm fine with the Multi-Stellar range and 4-A Environmental Destruction, but I don't believe the cloud calculation I did should count as Environmental Destruction.

 

[Psychomaster35]

No, your job is to calculate feats and evaluate the ones people calculate to see and point out where they went wrong. It shouldn't always involve insults towards someone's inability to perform one correctly. I know you and your friend might not mean the things you type, and I understand your frustrations when someone doesn't follow through on certain instructions, but it doesn't mean you should take it out on someone for not doing work properly. I'll just leave it at that; I don't wanna derail any further.

Pretty sure this bit was unnecessary here. Try to avoid doing that again next time.

 

[Omnificence]

Pretty sure this bit was unnecessary here. Try to avoid doing that again next time.

I didn't mean to come across as offensive, so I do apologize if I did. But let's not derail any further.

 

[Chariot190]

No, your job is to calculate feats and evaluate the ones people calculate to see and point out where they went wrong. It shouldn't always involve insults towards someone's inability to perform one correctly. I know you and your friend might not mean the things you type, and I understand your frustrations when someone doesn't follow through on certain instructions, but it doesn't mean you should take it out on someone for not doing work properly. I'll just leave it at that; I don't wanna derail any further.

Anyway, I'm fine with the Multi-Stellar range and 4-A Environmental Destruction, but I don't believe the cloud calculation I did should count as Environmental Destruction.

What are ya talking about, going "hey this calc has some shoddy logic behind it", aint an insult towards you or your ability to calc in general, it's just saying "hey the logic and reasoning here faulty, rejected", which is well in a CGM's rights to say.
Literally nobody here is frustrated or has some sort of agenda or acting weird

Just do your CRT and properly reply to the objections at hand or questions asked instead of thinking people out to get ya. Such as the questions I myself just asked....

 

[Omnificence]

Alright, lemme cook...

• "In 64 and Galaxy, Mario is (in base) capable of fighting foes that gain a massive power increase from Power Stars, despite some of them being already physically superior to him without need of buffs:
  • Bowser, who is almost universally portrayed as superior, though comparable, to Mario, without need of upgrades, is the biggest example, but there are others. Mario even fights Giant Bowser in Galaxy/Galaxy 2 where his buff (Grand Star) is even superior to a Power Star's. Taken at face value, this would give us a scaling chain of: Mario =< Bowser << Power Star Bowser << Grand Star Bowser >= Mario, which obviously makes no sense.
  • King Boo is fought in Mario 64 DS, and is such a powerful and prominently reoccurring villain that I don't think it's necessary to post scans of him being capable of easily threatening the cast in base.
  • Eyerok is fought as a boss again in Mario Kart DS, and defeated in a very similar manner. Notably, he is destroyed, and releases no stars at all.
  • King Bob-Omb/Big Bob-Omb serves as a boss battle in Mario Party 9, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Kart DS and Mario & Luigi Paper Jam. In all of those games he is capable of threatening the main cast (sometimes several at once) without need of Power Stars.
• Not only that, but the portrayal of characters who are receiving this amp that is allegedly universal between one another is very inconsistent, as is Mario's scaling to them.
  
  • Baron Brr, Wiggler, Bugaboom, Goomboss, King Kaliente, Major Burrows, Mandibug Stack, Topmaniac, Glamdozer can all be harmed normally.
  • Big Bullies, Chill Bullies, Mr. I, Eyerok, Whomp King, Dino Piranha, Bouldergeist, Mega-Leg, Tarantox, Boomsday Machine, Digga-Leg, Gobblegut, Megahammer, Peewee Piranha, Rollodillo, Sorbetti and Squizzard are all too powerful for Mario to face directly, forcing him to exploit their weaknesses to deal damage.
  • Big/King Bob-Omb is fought, but he seems to be treating this as more of a gentlemanly contest than a genuine fight, given that if you throw him off the top of the hill, he says that you must fight him with honor, considers the match null, and starts the fight again, seemingly having taken no actual damage. Additionally, he is capable of overpowering Mario with ease, and must be grabbed from behind, where he cannot reach, to lift him.
  • Mario can straight-up one-shot Giant Piranha Plants amped by a Power Star."

They are amped it's just really inconsistent and minor, and it clearly doesn't amp by the full power of the Stars given how inconsistent they are.

Okay? That doesn't mean we can't give them a key for being amped by a Grand Star since we already brought back the Power Star key for everybody, does it? Just because an enemy who is or isn't amped by a Power Star can one-shot a character doesn't indicate that character can't defeat or scale to the said enemy. When Nintendo designed and programmed Super Mario 64, they gave you the opportunity to either win against King Bob-Omb who was amped by the Power Star or lose to him without you being amped. They didn't make it flat-out impossible for you to beat him when you did or didn't have any Power Stars with you. And besides, you're not outright dying when fighting an amped King Bob-Omb. That's just the point of video games, or the point of challenges in fact. It's how their mechanics work. They all give you the chance to defeat characters regardless of whether or not they have an amp.

 

[Chariot190]

They didn't make it flat-out impossible for you to beat him when you did or didn't have any Power Stars with you.

Ngl i dont like this argument. It's a video game, a 64 one at that.
There's a difference between gameplay and lore, take another famous Nintendo game as an example.

Majora's Mask. You can beat Majora's Mask with Young Link alone, or the Fierce Deity. In game both is possible, despite this, we know canonically FD fought and killed Majora, not young link, and just because it's possible in game, doesnt suddenly make the 8-C Young Link like 4-C to 4-B especially because everything is laughed at by Skull Kid moments before and MM is undamagble, or the fact MM can literally kill him as basic collateral in an attack it tanks, or the fact they make it clear he cant stand up to it without aid, or stop the moon, or a billion things that go nuh uh, despite this, you can beat MM with a 9-B swamp goon and a baby bitch sword.

Or more recent, beating the 5-A ganon without doing anything, just going straight to him in TOTK. Link's giga nerfed 8-C ass aint beating the dude who neg diffed his previous peak in one attack because "the game lets you beat him, or lose".

Many, many, games have this type of stuff, it's called gameplay segregation (i think thats the term?) or simply just gameplay. What is in game, might not always be reflective of the lore or canon.

Now im not saying that isn't the case here, maybe youre right, but this isnt a good argument for why it's the case, given Mario is filled with these types of lore contradictions within normal gameplay, especially egregious in the RPGs.
This isnt a very good foundation of a point is what im trying, it doesnt support, or even go against, this proposal by itself, it needs more substantiated evidence.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Isnt this whataboutism that people on vsbw seethe over :troll_face:

 

[Chariot190]

I wouldve used some Mario examples but that feels like id have just been met with "well same case there", so I picked the next game over made by Nintendo on the same platform.

Mario has some pretty ludicrous examples in RPGs like TTYD and in general tho.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@Chariot190 Not sure how well those examples even work because those are final boss/endgame stuff. A Power Star-amped King Bob-Omb is legit the first boss in the game

 

[Chariot190]

@Chariot190 Not sure how well those examples even work because those are final boss/endgame stuff. A Power Star-amped King Bob-Omb is legit the first boss in the game

And yet, you can do so anyway.
Hell one of the selling points in BOTW was "you can kill Calamity Ganon immediately" or MM even has an attack he uses if you dont use FD (it's the lightray attack).

If the argument is, the game let's you do it, so it counts then no, it's a bad point, lots of games let you do stuff, on purpose, that isnt indicative of scaling or lore, usually the opposite even. It is a game first and foremost after all.

I could bring up other nintendo examples with first bosses. Take Samus damaging Ridley in the Super opening sequence with her basic bitch power suit (not varia) and pew pew beam. He even has a neat stagger animation in that specific scene. But, it's just gameplay, we know Ridley would mog basic power suit and power beam, and later that same game fights Gravity Suit with power bombs and plasma beam which eclipses start of game in lore. Mario is no stranger to this stuff, Shadow Queen, Star Rod, Smithy, etc, or even just basic enemies compared to bosses.