In the other Mario thread @Maverick_Zero_X mentioned that High 4-C seems more consistent for the characters when they are not empowered by a Grand Star.
Honestly the arguments have changed so much throughout the thread that it's been hard to follow. I'll try my best to summarise Fox's points and my counters.
This part of the argument makes sense to me. I'd say it is fair to say that more star bits are required to form the grand star, and we cannot really conclude that each toad only contributed one star bit from a brief visual? (granted I have not seen that visual).
I believe the point here is, that if a Luma can really create a real-sized galaxy, then Bowser doesn't need to go through so much of an ordeal just to create his own. He could have extracted the energy from a Luma instead of Grand Star. So I don't know, maybe lumas aren't capable of creating real-sized galaxies or the ones that are are very low in number and shouldn't scale to other lumas/power stars, is the argument here from what I can understand.
Well, I'd say the statement does imply only one galaxy was destroyed and reset. I won't even say destroyed, since we don't exactly know that. Just "reset" would be the right word. During that feat the screen turns to white, with no exact indication of what or how much was destroyed, the only thing we know for sure is that a reset button was hit on the events and everything was back to normal.
As far as Japanese vs English goes, I have seen a lot of discrepancies. I think it is better if we take a look at every relevant evidence and compile a blog containing both original and english versions, and have them translated for better understanding, as I suggested earlier.
Idk, that [his argument] seems like a stretch from what's essentially just a hypothetical. Perhaps Bowser's reactor just simply isn't capable of absorbing energy out of living beings. His machinery and troops use Power Stars or Grand Stars as an energy source pretty consistently after all.
Agreed.
Just say it. It's applicable to the point of this thread so why not.
Ok then. From the Grand Star profile
Can you do so again please, so TheNinthHour can get an easy overview for his translation work?
I suppose so, as long as they have been accepted by our then active calc group members. However, I would appreciate input from @GyroNutz and @DarkDragonMedeus .
Bit late now, but I'd appreciate if we didn't as this thread's changed directions countless times by now as it is, and many of my points are still unaddressed.
Not the ones we requested, and not presented with their relevant context.
@Antvasima I like how DDM thinks, but still, I think it would back Mario being 3-C. We don't really have anything like calculations or blogs of 3-C feats from the Super Mario franchise rather than just the visual and verbal instance of the stars turning into galaxies and even that doesn't sound like it's saying much. I mean, unless AKM has a very specific reason as to why we can't use material from guidebooks, then I can understand, but isn't there a way we can make an exception?
May I ask why?
It's implied that Lumas that become stuff like stars will eventually become galaxies. Even then, Lumas having varying feats in terms of AP doesn't mean the Stars can't scale above them in general. Not sure if you're implying this, but the lumas that create galaxies do so instantly with an explosion, indicating that this is an AP feat and not some transformation/shapeshifting hax.
The Grand Star still had life in it though, all the former would mean is that the reactor hadn't finished extracting the Grand Star's energy. Furthermore, the Grand Star is the sole power source, shown by how the reactor collapsed when it was removed. The reactor isn't responsible for providing its own energy, it simply takes the energy from the Grand Star to create stuff. If a car engine provides X joules to make a car move, that isn't a feat for the wheels of the car, they simply enable the motion and help transfer the chemical/electrical energy into mechanical work.
I don't see anything more that could be done here until a full organized collage of japanese scans is provided, with the relevant context and english localized counterparts, to be properly translated.
Okay. Are you able and willing to help out with that, @Foxthefox1000 ? Or is there anybody else here who can do so please?
That can simply refer to the Lumas who do turn into galaxies rather than all. Talking with them iirc some were excited on what choose to become when growing up.
I don't see why you say this.
Transformation can be done like that, instantly and with a dramatic explosion or something, you should not grab into that to say that it has to be an AP feat because of it.
The Grand Star still having life in it seem like a random rule to how this works, why would it not having life = that the reactor would then start what Bowser wanted it to do? Why makes the reactor not use it as a power source while it still has life like other bosses or places? Based on what does it need to have all the life of it first? It also seems counterintuitive by the fact that the place where Bowser wants his galaxy to be already has small planets, stars, and space full of other stars around, one would imagine he already started making the galaxy.
As I see it, it's not that that's simply proven to be that case, it's that we have so little info of the Galaxy Reactor that one may as well assume it doesn't provide its own energy like unmoving parts of a car, which is not a fair comparison for futuristic technology that can draw energy from one thing & use it for a purpose, having the ability to do that shows that it does provide some of its own energy to it, unlike powerless parts of a car. We don't know much more of how it functions, but with a name like "Galaxy Reactor", I would easily imagine the creation of a galaxy to be done as smoothy as possible by it.
Not sure what that's meant to prove.
Well, it's true. If thing A is > thing B, it doesn't matter if thing B has varying power, it would be contradictory for there to be an instance where thing B > thing A. This seems rather self-explanatory, no?
The luma becomes a galaxy and there's a clear indicator that energy is involved via the explosion. This isn't just some "dramatic cloud" done for effect. And no, those two are distinct things, the Luma doesn't just increase in size, it literally becomes a Galaxy. Although we give 3-C ratings to galaxy-sized characters anyways.
Why does the fact that it's futuristic technology that's more advanced than our own mean that it can provide its own energy? We know that Rosalina's comet observatory, which is also technology that dwarfs our own, relies on Power/Grand Stars to function, despite it being needed for the Lumas to survive. You'd have to jump through a lot of hoops to assume that the reactor provides its own energy, instead of assuming that the reactor that relies on a power source uses said power source to function. It's the explanation that requires far less assumptions.
What is the "plug" in your example? What other power source does the Galaxy Reactor rely on? You say that we know little about the reactor and how it works, but this can be flipped around - everything we need to know about the Galaxy Reactor is provided to us within about ten minutes, give or take, of gameplay.
Well, you missed the point with this. They scale due to their Transformation, meaning that if they were to vary in power for their Transformation it would mean the Stars can't scale above them in general, because their general would not be the same as they turning into the Stars.
The cases you dismissed have just as much value as the case here that you portray as valid to apply for their general display; An explosion accompanying a transformation isn't much more significant than a cloud covering it, or the inanimate thing one turned into shaking at the start. It is clear that energy is being involved, that isn't denied, just that this comes from their Transformation, an ability that very often makes characters and things in fiction vary in power & abilities. A cloud covering a transformation would also have energy involved, just not as much, and it of course doesn't mean that has to apply to the users' general displays.
You pointed out that the Grand Star still had life in it in a way that implies that this wouldn't let the Galaxy Reactor have started making Bowser's galaxy, otherwise you can tell me why you pointed that out. I see nowhere where Grand Star still having life was ever stated to relevant to how it could start its job, hence I said that it seemed "like a random rule".
Sorry but this logic keeps making the same mistake. Let's go back this bit I said
What are we gonna do about these scans then? Can't they be applied to Mario's Lifting Strength?
The latter had no reason to scale and was removed off his profile before since said black holes aren't moved. And I will eventually get around to making a thread for removing that calc from AP if the moderators here collectively conclude and agree on completely discounting this specific guidebook.
So, about this...
