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Super Revision Bros (4-A proposals, Grand Star key, and two calculations)

Chariot190 said:
And yet, you can do so anyway.
Hell one of the selling points in BOTW was "you can kill Calamity Ganon immediately" or MM even has an attack he uses if you dont use FD.

If the argument is, the game let's you do it, so it counts then no, it's a bad point, lots of games let you do stuff, on purpose, that isnt indicative of scaling or lore, usually the opposite even. It is a game first and foremost after all.

I could bring up other nintendo examples with first bosses. Take Samus damaging Ridley in the Super opening sequence with her basic bitch power suit (not varia) and pew pew beam. He even has a neat stagger animation in that specific scene. But, it's just gameplay, we know Ridley would mog basic power suit and power beam, and later that same game fights Gravity Suit with power bombs and plasma beam which eclipses start of game in lore. Mario is no stranger to this stuff, Shadow Queen, Star Rod, Smithy, etc, or even just basic enemies compared to bosses.
Click to expand...
And those are plain out whataboutisms there. Lore isn't necessary for scaling, instead, we just go by however consistent they are, and those cases where they go against and defeat bosses much stronger than them would be outliers depending on the context. But if it happens way too consistently, then they can't be outliers.
 
Chariot190 said:
And yet, you can do so anyway.
Hell one of the selling points in BOTW was "you can kill Calamity Ganon immediately" or MM even has an attack he uses if you dont use FD (it's the lightray attack).

If the argument is, the game let's you do it, so it counts then no, it's a bad point, lots of games let you do stuff, on purpose, that isnt indicative of scaling or lore, usually the opposite even. It is a game first and foremost after all.

I could bring up other nintendo examples with first bosses. Take Samus damaging Ridley in the Super opening sequence with her basic bitch power suit (not varia) and pew pew beam. He even has a neat stagger animation in that specific scene. But, it's just gameplay, we know Ridley would mog basic power suit and power beam, and later that same game fights Gravity Suit with power bombs and plasma beam which eclipses start of game in lore. Mario is no stranger to this stuff, Shadow Queen, Star Rod, Smithy, etc, or even just basic enemies compared to bosses.
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Okay...?

Still, none of these cases are relevant (even putting the whataboutism aside; I saw you explaining it away but that doesn't change it being a whataboutism), because they're either involving being evidently inferior to the enemy (like with Samus damaging Ridley)/some sort of forced loss (like the Mario ones, especially the Star Rod), or an open world letting you jump to the final boss - which I agree would not let this gutted Link scale to 5-A at all, for example.

If Omnificence's argument is "the game lets you do it, so it counts," I'd disagree with that line of thinking because open-world games get screwed over by this train of thought. Mine is more like... King Bob-Omb is literally the first boss in the game.
 
Psychomaster35 said:
And those are plain out whataboutisms there.
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"I wouldve used some Mario examples but that feels like id have just been met with "well same case there", so I picked the next game over made by Nintendo on the same platform.

Mario has some pretty ludicrous examples in RPGs like TTYD and in general tho." - literally me

How many would you like? It also isnt a whataboutism, it's basic common sense, you need to prove that shit has substantiated evidence, the fact alone cant be used as justification.
Psychomaster35 said:
Lore isn't necessary for scaling, instead, we just go by however consistent they are,
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Lore isnt always required, but it is when it makes fuckys and the response to it is "game lets you so it's legit".

Youve been following the conversation yes? This feels like misplaced complaining ngl.
Psychomaster35 said:
and those cases where they go against and defeat bosses much stronger than them would be outliers depending on the context. But if it happens way to consistently, then it's basically it.
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You know we have rules on circular scaling yes? The very fact this type of logic leads to extreme circular scaling ad infinitum, is a pretty huge red flag that "hey maybe just because the game let's you do something, it doesnt always mean ut's indicative of canon or lore".

Which, is the argument here, that because the game let's you do it, it counts.
That's it at the moment, no corroborative evidence, no supporting feats, scaling, or evidence, but simply because you can do it in game, it must be legit. That was the response given, and that's the response I replied to.
And i am explaining, no, that isnt how shit works, you cant just justify stuff based on that completely especially if it seemingly has issues, as such i gave examples of where the same shit applies, but, it doesnt check out.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Okay...?

Still, none of these cases are relevant (even putting the whataboutism aside), because they're either involving being evidently inferior to the enemy (like with Samus damaging Ridley)/some sort of forced loss (like the Mario ones, especially the Star Rod), or an open world letting you jump to the final boss - which I agree would not let this gutted Link scale to 5-A at all, for example.
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And? Theyre relevant to the argument that was made. You dont have to agree with them, god I HOPE you dont agree with them, that's the point. It's dumb as shit and obviously not the case, just because a game CAN let you do it, doesnt mean it's reflective of lore or canon, which, was the argument presented.
CloverDragon03 said:
If Omnificence's argument is "the game lets you do it, so it counts," I'd disagree with that line of thinking because open-world games get screwed over by this train of thought. Mine is more like... King Bob-Omb is literally the first boss in the game.
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Well I mean that's your argument and it is a hell of a lot better, but I was saying your point was bad, I was saying his point of "they programmed it in, it is possible to happen, so it counts", isnt acceptable.
 
I would agree that's not acceptable. For my money, I'd argue that King Bob-Omb being the first boss (the only boss in a level you can access without any Power Stars without an exploit) is pretty relevant
 
Im not here to argue if scaling to king bobomb is bad, im just saying that the rebuttal to Armor's point, is unacceptable and is rampant in not only games in general, but hell even Mario itself

Anyway, can my questions be answered, I feel theyre kind of a critical component to the proposed feats 😔
 
Chariot190 said:
Well I mean that's your argument and it is a hell of a lot better, but I was saying your point was bad, I was saying his point of "they programmed it in, it is possible to happen, so it counts", isnt acceptable
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Okay, maybe that wasn't a good reason, but still. The point I'm getting at is the fact that Mario and Luigi can defeat and take attacks from characters amped by the Power Star like King Bob-Omb should indicate they can scale. This happens in several other games throughout the entire franchise like the Mario Galaxy and Mario Party games.
 
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Chariot190 said:
for Meteor Trio, and Millennium Star, do they state that theyre making a dimension or pocket whatever? If so it should be fine but if not, we'd need to go through the alternatives and figure out what's more likely if at all.
Click to expand...
 
Chariot190 said:
Uh anyway, for Meteor Trio, and Millennium Star, do they state that theyre making a dimension or pocket whatever? If so it should be fine but if not, we'd need to go through the alternatives and figure out what's more likely if at all.
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When was context needed for indicating things created in fictional are pocket dimensions of some sort? Like, isn't the fact they show different types of backgrounds giving something away there?
 
Omnificence said:
When was context needed for indicating things created in fictional are pocket dimensions of some sort? Like, isn't the fact they show different types of backgrounds giving something away there?
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Literally always? Like 100%.

It could be dimensional travel, it could be anything, it's why need some sort of proof theyre making it. And in some cases, how theyre making it too.
The only time stuff like that isnt needed, is when dealing with say, a wizard who is heavily established to make pocket dimensions or stuff, at that point yeah you dont need a statement every time, if it the thing in question has already been confirmed and established to do so, but it does get complex if they have other stuff it could be too so...
But if it just kinda happens, you need confirmation or at least a heavy implication.

And im not saying this to be mean, it's wiki standards, every verse is subjected to this dont look up the old mundus threads, that shit is PTSD
 
Dust_Collector said:
"There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location"
- Our Creation Feats Page
Click to expand...
Chariot190 said:
Literally always? Like 100%.

It could be dimensional travel, it could be anything, it's why need some sort of proof theyre making it. And in some cases, how theyre making it too.
The only time stuff like that isnt needed, is when dealing with say, a wizard who is heavily established to make pocket dimensions or stuff, at that point yeah you dont need a statement every time, if it the thing in question has already been confirmed and established to do so, but it does get complex if they have other stuff it could be too so...
But if it just kinda happens, you need confirmation or at least a heavy implication.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, but haven't we used calculations for characters that have made things like starry skies and moons without indicating their pocket dimensions? Creating a bunch of stars doesn't mean it needs to be done in a pocket dimension, right? How would we even know this is Dimensional Travel?
 
Omnificence said:
Fair enough, but haven't we used calculations for characters that have made things like starry skies and moons without indicating their pocket dimensions? Creating a bunch of stars doesn't mean it needs to be done in a pocket dimension, right? How would we even know this is Dimensional Travel?
Click to expand...
Well yeah, they don't need to be pocket dimensions. It's just that the question is:

For Meteor Trio and Millennium Star, is there anything proving that they themselves created the starry skies? Because otherwise, it becomes much more iffy and one could simply argue they traveled somewhere that has the starry sky. Hence why Dimensional Travel was brought up
 
Omnificence said:
Fair enough, but haven't we used calculations for characters that have made things like starry skies and moons without indicating their pocket dimensions?
Click to expand...
If we have, theyre wrong, or they do have some reason to scale.
Really no inbetween here.
Omnificence said:
Creating a bunch of stars doesn't mean it needs to be done in a pocket dimension, right? How would we even know this is Dimensional Travel?
Click to expand...
That's exactly it, we wouldnt know, at all, it'd be a complete unknown and thus we cant actually draw a conclusion. It's precisely why we need evidence to suggest what's actually happening.
 
Omnificence said:
Okay, maybe that wasn't a good reason, but still. The point I'm getting at is the fact that Mario and Luigi can defeat and take attacks from characters amped by the Power Star like King Bob-Omb should indicate they can scale. This happens in several other games throughout the entire franchise like the Mario Galaxy and Mario Party games.
Click to expand...
They can sometimes, at other times they're just fully unable to even hurt them, or Power Stars are considered to be massive amps (Mario Party is a good example). It's just not consistent either way.

Btw if we're looking at King Bob-Omb specifically, you never actually beat him in a fight, you just throw him three times and he accepts defeat. In fact if you throw him off the cliff he calls you out on cheating and starts the fight over, being none the worse for wear. So there's an argument you're not hurting him, just beating him in a regulated competition.
 
Agree with 4-A Bowser via Creation/Environmental Destruction, but the Trio Meteor and Millennium Star feats shouldn’t be used unless we have an explicit statement that they’re using Creation.

As for the rest I think Armor’s points make sense.
 
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Maverick_Zero_X said:
Agree with 4-A Bowser via Creation/Environmental Destruction, but the Trio Meteor and Millennium Star feats shouldn’t be used unless we have an explicit statement that they’re using Creation.
Click to expand...
Yeah this is where I stand atm. Things can change with the right evidence showcasing that Trio Meteor and Millennium Star created these realms, but atm, that doesn't seem plausible. Especially the Millennium Star, that seems more like he's just taking you to this arena
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Agree with 4-A Bowser via Creation/Environmental Destruction, but the Trio Meteor and Millennium Star feats shouldn’t be used unless we have an explicit statement that they’re using Creation.
Click to expand...
CloverDragon03 said:
Yeah this is where I stand atm. Things can change with the right evidence showcasing that Trio Meteor and Millennium Star created these realms, but atm, that doesn't seem plausible. Especially the Millennium Star, that seems more like he's just taking you to this arena
Click to expand...
Lloydblitzed said:
Im leaning to agree with that stance
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As long as one or two characters like Bowser can have "4-A via Creation/Environmental Destruction" I'm fine with that. I'll look for some evidence for the others, and if I can't find any, then Dimensional Travel should be fine. I'm still all for proposing a Grand Star key for the characters, though.
 
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JJSliderman said:
But if we take Culex statements literally he’s a uni+ temporal omnipresent being at minimum.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure his statements about that stuff is english localisation only, original version doesn't have him mention much beyond something about evil power or whatever.

But that's enough about culex, in regards to this CRT I'm also fine with Bowser getting 4-A via creation/enviromental destruction.
 
Also now (I rly hate admitting this) but after second guessing. Millennium star could have just teleported Mario and himself to a place where its falling stars. (Someday VSBW would be ok with cosmic base mario but thats wishful thinking) So i dont think thats gonna fly. Unless Millennium Star has statements and proved his creations of stars.
 
Omnificence said:

Multi-Solar System AP​

Proposal: 4-A via Creation, Destruction, Death, etc.​

This was discussed in a previous thread when I was arguing for different tiers after the downgrade. First, let's take a look at some of the scans and instances where Multi-Solar System level AP is supposedly displayed:
These aren't all of the 4-A feats I found in the series; just a few. Before anybody asks... No, we are NOT proposing 4-A striking strength and durability... at least not yet. Instead, we're applying the 4-A rating to the AP for those who have displayed these feats in the series via certain abilities such as Creation, Environmental Destruction, Death, etc. For example, Exor would be placed at 4-A AP via death due to affecting tens of stars upon his defeat. In contrast, characters such as Paper Mario and the Millennium Star would be placed at 4-A via the Creation of realms with backgrounds of starry skies.
Click to expand...
The first feat looks fine

The second one is just Multi-Stellar, but the amount of energy generated for the sky being cleaned up can yield an energy value

However, i will disagree with 4-A for the Millenium Star and Paper Mario, since we don´t have direct proof that they created the realms instead of just teleporting to them

Omnificence said:

Grand Star​

Why should characters have 3-C ratings again?​

The reasoning is the same as in the previous thread when I proposed bringing back the Power Star key for everybody. The whole objective of the Super Mario Galaxy games is to collect as many Power Stars as you can so you can face off against Bowser who is amped by a Grand Star. As I stated before, Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and used them to obtain the form they take now. This should mean that the Grand Stars function in the same way that Power Stars do whenever users of them collect and draw power from them.

For this reason, I suggest we give everyone a Grand Star key and/or "up to 3-C with enough Power Stars" for their Power Star key.
Click to expand...
Neutral on this

Omnificence said:
Adding two new calculations to Mario's profile
Recently, I did two calculations from Super Mario Land to further justify the current 6-C and Massively FTL+ ratings the cast currently has. They have already been evaluated once and two other CGMs on the forums don't seem to have a problem with them. I was going to also calculate several other FTL feats for the series, but it will take me some time to find them.
Click to expand...
The 6-C feat would, sadly, be just ED

The MFTL+ one looks good, Tatanga was also fighting the guy who could end with all of his plans, so he would logically be going at full speeds with his spaceship
 
Chariot190 said:
That's his job though, hell i do the same but worse

Uh anyway, for Meteor Trio, and Millennium Star, do they state that theyre making a dimension or pocket whatever? If so it should be fine but if not, we'd need to go through the alternatives and figure out what's more likely if at all.
Click to expand...
Not sure if this even got responded to, so I'll try my best. As we can see, the False Millennium Star is fought within the box world, where he uses this hole to go the arena. This hole is generally used to go anywhere in this box world, with its background resembling that of the Stardust Battle's arena. The box world itself, however, seems to have been created by the False Millenium Star. We can see Donkey Kong take out a dice, when the False Millennium Star flashes and suddenly there's an entire world inside the box, with the dice, now dubbed Tumble, being brought to life by the False Millennium Star as a result of this as seen on Page 8 of the manual provided with the game. I think both this flash and the fact he's affecting how things work within this box are a good way of showcasing he was the one to make the box, and so this starry arena in the hole used for transport and battle is likely a result of his work!

(I guess as a side note, I'm not sure if he created the entire world and dragged everyone into it, or if it's a similar situation to Baby Bowser's, as he does claim the locations within are legendary (implying pre-existence), though this might just be hyping up his handywork or just created a whole timeline with history in here if it truly were his own creation. But personally I'm fine with it just being this world based off the world Bowser lives in (screw Mario) being created in the box, I guess the True Millennium Star does make it out to be different from the real world, so there's an idea it's not just the world being warped to be like this or portions dragged into it)
 
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Omnificence said:
Anyway, I'm fine with the Multi-Stellar range and 4-A Environmental Destruction, but I don't believe the cloud calculation I did should count as Environmental Destruction.
Click to expand...
I forgot to address this before but like, how is it anything but that? It's done through unknown means, in an unknown timeframe, with no particular reason this should scale to his statistics.
 
Armorchompy said:
"Anyway, I'm fine with the Multi-Stellar range and 4-A Environmental Destruction, but I don't believe the cloud calculation I did should count as Environmental Destruction."

I forgot to address this before but like, how is it anything but that? It's done through unknown means, in an unknown timeframe, with no particular reason this should scale to his statistics.
Click to expand...
I haven't really ever had to deal with Environmental Destruction, so I won't put myself across as an expert, but I've seen cloud feats a lot on this wiki and don't recall any being related to ED. I had a whole thing about cloud parting prepared then realised that isn't relevant, what a mistake to make! Giegue's profile just portrays his cloud creation feat as straight AP without entertaining the idea of it being ED. On inputting "created clouds" in the search function of the wiki, I can see Nacht Schatten also has a cloud creation feat played as straight AP, and Banshouou's true form earned an Island level rating thanks to their own cloud creation feat. Same with Shigeo Kageyama at 100%, and even Hylia has this for creating a cloud barrier. Perhaps fittingly, Tessia Eralith's profile mentions the creation of storm clouds, which maybe matches Tatanga's own black clouds. Truth be told, I'm finding a lot of examples by doing this, and since it might get boring to just make this a huge list, I'll leave it here. But perhaps most confusingly is why is a creation feat being listed as enviromental destruction?

The point I'm making here is I'm not exactly sure where the idea that such a feat would be anything less than AP, but rather sidelined as merely Environmental Destruction, is coming from. Sure, the ED page itself says about it being case-by-case, but there doesn't seem to be any notable difference between those examples and this one as far as I can tell...

As for "in an unknown timeframe", we at least know from the cited manual page 3 that "the skies of Sasaraland were suddenly covered by a huge black cloud", so we can safely assume it was done very quick (ergo suddenly)/within a short timespan, rather than being done overtime. So I wouldn't see this as any particular reason for contention.
 
LuckyEmile said:
I haven't really ever had to deal with Environmental Destruction, so I won't put myself across as an expert, but I've seen cloud feats a lot on this wiki and don't recall any being related to ED. I had a whole thing about cloud parting prepared then realised that isn't relevant, what a mistake to make! Giegue's profile just portrays his cloud creation feat as straight AP without entertaining the idea of it being ED. On inputting "created clouds" in the search function of the wiki, I can see Nacht Schatten also has a cloud creation feat played as straight AP, and Banshouou's true form earned an Island level rating thanks to their own cloud creation feat. Same with Shigeo Kageyama at 100%, and even Hylia has this for creating a cloud barrier. Perhaps fittingly, Tessia Eralith's profile mentions the creation of storm clouds, which maybe matches Tatanga's own black clouds. Truth be told, I'm finding a lot of examples by doing this, and since it might get boring to just make this a huge list, I'll leave it here.
Click to expand...
All of those either have a further reason for scaling characters to their ability to create clouds (Giegue and Shigeo use their TK to do it, for example, while Hylia has a UES). I can't vouch for the others, but either they also have that, or they shouldn't scale to it. I know it's not a very satisfying answer but the truth of it is a lot of profiles on this website just aren't very well made.
LuckyEmile said:
But perhaps most confusingly is why is a creation feat being listed as enviromental destruction?
Click to expand...
That is fair, it's just sort of a term people use as shorthand for "not direct AP", it's obviously a creation feat.
LuckyEmile said:
As for "in an unknown timeframe", we at least know from the cited manual page 3 that "the skies of Sasaraland were suddenly covered by a huge black cloud", so we can safely assume it was done very quick (ergo suddenly)/within a short timespan, rather than being done overtime. So I wouldn't see this as any particular reason for contention.
Click to expand...
That much is fair.
 
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