Spaces in Times Dragon Ball revision

[RedReaper616]

** idk why even ya want this, it'd downgrade the macrocosm to low 2-C even if OW is a diff world given it'd just be space, no time, regardless of the OP. it'd even ** with the hypertime, kai realm, and everything inbetween

Claim's I'm doing this because "agenda."

Also notes that this would downgrade the macrocosm, which I verbatim said I agreed with IN the Discussion thread last time we had this convo, because I want accuracy.

Strawmans the **** out of me anyway, after I purposely steelmanned his arguments for him-Read the "Even if you were right on Otherworld, Blank would happen" section again. It is me literally giving you a hypothetical concession and pointing out how it still doesn't fly, but you considered it strawmanning for some reason.

Mm. Yeah. This makes total sense. Absolute sense. No problems whatsoever.

Edit: I'm gonna reply to the rest later. Tired.

 

[Chariot190]

** idk why even ya want this, it'd downgrade the macrocosm to low 2-C even if OW is a diff world given it'd just be space, no time, regardless of the OP. it'd even ** with the hypertime, kai realm, and everything inbetween

Claim's I'm doing this because "agenda."

Exactly why I'm baffled, half the time it's always an agenda, if not, cool.
Still wrong tho.

Also notes that this would downgrade the macrocosm, which I verbatim said I agreed with IN the Discussion thread last time we had this convo, because I want accuracy.

Why tf is the single time ya agree with a downgrade, it's the one that's demonstrably wrong and goes against wiki rules^8

Strawmans the **** out of me anyway, after I purposely steelmanned his arguments for him-Read the "Even if you were right on Otherworld, Blank would happen" section again. It is me literally giving you a hypothetical concession and pointing out how it still doesn't fly, but you considered it strawmanning for some reason.

Yuh huh, because where in the **** do i say any of the shit youre yapping to you in what you replied with?

Time passes, it isnt a timeless world. I'd say i'd go gather the 100+ examples, but why would i? You know they exist, i know they exist, EVERYONE knows they exist, it's not posting shit that everyone doesn't already know.

And "even if", there is no if, that's how it's shown, demonstrated and consistently behaves, it just is.

Edit: I'm gonna reply to the rest later. Tired.

Don't bother, unless i see you make a "why dbz is a special boy and we get to pretend it's something it isn't despite standards" CRT, you'd just be wasting all our time and will probably just be met with me replying random OW has time panels.

 

[Hellformer]

Although my opinion doesn't matter but now I agree with the OP

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[AwkguyDB]

Bump

low key could someone actually move this to fun and games

 

[TheTenno07]

En tono bajo, ¿alguien podría realmente trasladar esto a la sección de juegos y diversión?

Fr

 

[Chariot190]

low key could someone actually move this to fun and games

Fr

Useless comments like this is why this should be, and will be, a staff thread, if it keeps up, a fact you've all been warned about.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

What's the current state of this thread?

 

[Omegabronic]

What's the current state of this thread?

waiting for more staff input

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

waiting for more staff input

Give me a summary of the arguments so I can call them.

 

[Omegabronic]

Give me a summary of the arguments so I can call them.

here's mine:

-The Afterlife and Kaioshin realm are said to be separated by physical barriers from the living world, an engraved wall(which means that this would need to be a physical wall given the meaning of "engraved") in the case of the Afterlife, which even has a different term to refer to it in comparison to the Dimensional Walls cited later in the guidebook(ドラゴンボールの世界では、宇宙はあの世の下に位置し、不思議な文様の刻まれた壁によって密閉されている。—utilizes the kanji, 壁 (kabe), for wall by itself, unlike how the television anime exclusively specifies 次元の壁 or "dimensional walls" when referencing the Room of Spirit and Time and Majin Buu's Outside Space technique), and a crystal wall sphere in the case of the Kaioshin realm, with the separation it has from the rest of the macrocosm being compared to how the Moon revolves around the Earth, aka a physical distance and separation, physically orbiting around something, in this case, the rest of the Universe

- the Afterlife is said to the "opposite" of the Living World, however "opposite" only means that they are as different as possible, which given the lack of galaxies in the Afterlife + all other elements from it, is true, and "on the other side of a particular area from somebody/something and usually facing them" aka it is just more evidence that the Afterlife is on the opposite side compared to the living world, nothing that would imply that it is another space time

- Some also said that we never seeing the walls described is also, which outside the fact that we do in the DBS manga, also isn't proof that they don't exist, but merely that we don't ever saw it, example, we also never saw the Grand Kai in the manga at all, but we do know he exists from statements, it not being shown doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means that it was never relevant enough to be shown

- arguments about statements of the Kaishin Realm being separated from the other realms have also been given, the "Instant Transmission" being the only way to get inside part of the statement is contradicted by Whis using a method that is factually not Instant Transmission(elaboration in points bellow) while the actual separation point is also not much proof given the description of said separation, that being a physical "moon like" separation where one orbits the other body, it being separated doesn't mean it is another dimension, much like how our moon is separated from the Earth while still being in the same dimension, it being a separated place in of itself really doesn't prove much, since either way they wouldn't be "inside" the universe, that as much is never said in this thread, but that they are outside in a physical manner rather than a dimensional one

- Goku did say that Kid Buu wouldn't be able to get there however, that might have some merit, but then again, there is also the other evidence for it not being another dimension given, so balance that with this if you so wish

- Goku is also said to not be able to go back to the World of the Living after he is dead.....but that is purely because of the rules Dead people have to abide by, Goku can Teleport to the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm and back without problems either way, so regardless of it being physically or spatially separated, it wouldn't matter for the point as he would have ways to go back either way, the rules for dead people stop that however as he needs permission to go back to the world of the living when he is dead, which is why he doesn't just teleports back after he dies

-some people may say that the descriptions are based arround the macrocosm map Toryama drew, but that cannot be the case, the descriptions also talk about several things that aren't in the map at all, like stars and nabulae, and about stuff intrinsical to the realms like their functions and placement in the order of the universe, that plus nothing ever saying that it is describing specifically the map makes it very convoluted to argue that it is only describing the map instead of describing what it is said to be describing, the macrocosm and its realms

-no statement says that the Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are other dimensions in the main canon are given, or at least, none was given in this thread so far

-Goku can sense and teleport to all the reals of the macrocosm without problem, but he couldn't sense Ki inside of the ROSAT, which is directly credited due to the fact that it's a different dimension

-Some may say that, since the original text says "different dimension of time" then it doesn't mean that it is because it is another dimension, but the end result is the same either way, it having another dimension of time just means that it is in fact another dimension, so it doesn't really disprove the point, also was said the the ROSAT is closed off from the outside world, however, since the reason it would be closed from the outside world is that they are in another dimension, that is the most straight forward conclusion given the lack of elaboration on anything else regarding this "closed offness"

-Whis' Interplanetary movement (Which is described as him simply going very fast with regular movement speed, this not being teleportation at all) and the time it takes to travel between the realms, to go from Beerus' planet(Inside the universe) to the afterlife takes 26 minutes, but to go from Beerus' planet to another point in the universe(Earth) takes 35 minutes, and then to go from the Afterlife to Earth only merely 3 minutes, which would be weird if the Afterlife is another space time/dimension. How can 2 points in the same space be further apart than a place that isn't in the same space at all? and then be less apart from to supposedly same alternate dimension it early took almost 10x more time to go to?

- Beerus directly says that Earth is "not very far away from here(King Kai's planet in the Afterlife) aka Earth is very close to a place that is supposedly a completely different dimension

- Some say how we don't know the specifics of Whis' travels, but we do, regardless of Interdimensional Travel or not, we do know that he is moving himself during the technique, as in, his body is moving, he is covering distance with it, as such when he goes to another dimension the same would be the case, with him going through the space between dimensions and what not that we know exists with the likes of Neutral Space, so if he takes more time to go to place, it is because it is further away, that much is said directly to us, which still makes the 3 minutes to Earth vs 26 Minutes to Beerus's planet meaninful, as it wouldn't make sense for the same travel(one dimension to the other in the interpretation that the realms are other dimensions) to take so much time apart from one another, and then to have travel to the same space(Beerus' Planet to Earth) to take so much more time, 45 minutes

- no statements say that only special ways can make one go to realms, in this thread people have severely given examples of techniques that can perform dimensional travel going to the realms, like Whis' Interplenetary movement and Goku's IT, but that doesn't prove much as said techniques can equally travel normal 3D distances, therefore there is nothing saying that only such techniques can make one go to the realms, it is an assumption based on nothing concrete as the evidence used to prove it doesn't really have to mean what they are saying it does, nor does it directly say what they say it does, it only proves that the techiques CAN travel to the realms, not that they are NECESSITY to go to the realms

- the only thing making the main cannon stay as other space times is the Subspace, a conceptually timeless and spaceless realm, however the problem is the lack of statements supporting it even separating the realms and it even being inside the macrocosm to begin with, nothing on the scans about the Subspace ever says that it is between the dimensions "of the macrocosm" only that it is vaguely "between dimensions", no specification if it is between the ones in the macrocosm or not, just that it is "between dimensions" which doesn't tell us much regarding which dimensions it is talking about, but considering the dimensions cited alongside the subspace are the likes of the Room of Spirit and Time/Hyperbolic Time Chamber, it is only natural to conclude that it is saying that it is between those dimensions and the Macrocosm.

-more on the above, it is also not said to be inside the macrocosm anywhere, nor do we have any particular reason to assume they are in the first place, the only statement we have about its placement is that it is "どの世界にも属さない"/"That which doesn't belong to the world" and "この他、【図1】の世界のどこにも属さない「亜空間」が存在している。Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1]." and "It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world" pretty much all statements about it talk about how it just doesn't belong in the world("world" used to describe the macrocosm in this context) so for all we can say, it isn't even inside the Universe/Macrocosm to begin with, some might say that the use of "world depicted in Fig 1" would give leadway for it still being in the non represented part of the macrocosm, however the third scan clarifies further by talking to the "world"/macrocosm in general without citing any figure, thus asserting that it truly doesn't exist in the macrocosm at all, as the spaces between its parts would count as being "part of the world"

-people also use the fact that the Multiverse wasn't indroduced as evidence, outside of the fact that it was with Trunks and alternate timelines, but this is also a weird point, yeah the 12 universes weren't introduced, but that doesn't mean other dimensions couldn't be a thing, Subspace is very much established as being outside the Universe, despite what Ex's interpretation of the scan was, after he translated for all to understand the words, anyone's interpretation is as valid after that, his opinions alone aren't absolute end all be all, a proper 12 universe multiverse not being established doesn't mean that nothing outside of the universe couldn't be introduced, Ex clarified to me how that interpretation wasn't even what he meant in his translation

-some may use this translation to say that the "dimensions" cited in the statements are the realms of the macrocosm, however that isn't the case, as how we can see in the actual translation, nothing of shorts is ever inplied, Ex did provided his opinion on what the statement was talking about, however parts like "It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world" show clearly that this wasn't the case, as the space between the realms would be equally part of the macrocosm/world, and nothing on the scans ever mentions the realms as being the "dimensions" with the terminology used to refer to them always being different, also supported by the ROSAT being directly said to not be part of the Universe, @Chariot190 made a good summary of why it would mean U7 here

-for the actual dimensional walls, In the famous scene of DBS: Broly, Gogeta and Broly at one point seemingly break reality and go into some weird space, which is confirmed to be outside of reality/Not exist in reality, which is also another dimension that is beyond 3D, this world is also said to be a cracked dimensional wall they broke after distorting space time severely, as we can see that outside of the reality of U7, makes the Universe still a Low 2-C space time, as the barriers that separate it from the outside are broken only by severe space time distortion and the space outside of it is a 4D space

-another argument is the scene where Super Buu escapes the Rosat back to U7, that however doesn't really prove that the individual realms have the same kind of Dimension Barrier of the ROSAT in each of them, as clarified how the ROSAT is outside the Macrocosm entirely, this only proves that the ROSAT has Dimensional Barriers separating it from the other dimensions, there isn't anything connecting this with the Living World directly or to any of the other realms

-The Demon Realm is said to not be in the Living World, so the statements about it being part of it and thus of the macrocosm is also contradicted, specially when this statements compares both ROSAT and Demon Realm as examples as if they are comparable, with ROSAT alongside the Subspace being very much stablished as not being part of the Macrocosm, thus making the arguments using the Demon Realm as proof of other realms in the macrocosm being other dimensions isn't valid as it would also not be part of the macrocosm like how the ROSAT/Subspace is very much stablished to not be

the arguments i didn't mentioned here would be ones i legitimate think are good points, like Beerus' shockwaves reaching the other realms, however, even if they are other dimensions, they wouldn't really have anything for being other space times regardless given the Subspace not being inside of the Macrocosm and nothing other than it really proving space time separation for them

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

here's mine:

-The Afterlife and Kaioshin realm are said to be separated by physical barriers from the living world, an engraved wall(which means that this would need to be a physical wall given the meaning of "engraved") in the case of the Afterlife, which even has a different term to refer to it in comparison to the Dimensional Walls cited later in the guidebook(ドラゴンボールの世界では、宇宙はあの世の下に位置し、不思議な文様の刻まれた壁によって密閉されている。—utilizes the kanji, 壁 (kabe), for wall by itself, unlike how the television anime exclusively specifies 次元の壁 or "dimensional walls" when referencing the Room of Spirit and Time and Majin Buu's Outside Space technique), and a crystal wall sphere in the case of the Kaioshin realm, with the separation it has from the rest of the macrocosm being compared to how the Moon revolves around the Earth, aka a physical distance and separation, physically orbiting around something, in this case, the rest of the Universe

-no statement says that the Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are other dimensions in the main canon are given, or at least, none was given in this thread so far

-Goku can sense and teleport to all the reals of the macrocosm without problem, but he couldn't sense Ki inside of the ROSAT, which is directly credited due to the fact that it's a different dimension

-Whis' Interplanetary movement (Which is described as him simply going very fast with regular movement speed, this not being teleportation at all) and the time it takes to travel between the realms, to go from Beerus' planet(Inside the universe) to the afterlife takes 26 minutes, but to go from Beerus' planet to another point in the universe(Earth) takes 35 minutes, and then to go from the Afterlife to Earth only merely 3 minutes, which would be weird if the Afterlife is another space time/dimension. How can 2 points in the same space be further apart than a place that isn't in the same space at all? and then be less apart from to supposedly same alternate dimension it early took almost 10x more time to go to?

- Beerus directly says that Earth is "not very far away from here(King Kai's planet in the Afterlife) aka Earth is very close to a place that is supposedly a completely different dimension

- the only thing making the main cannon stay as other space times is the Subspace, a conceptually timeless and spaceless realm, however the problem is the lack of statements supporting it even separating the realms and it even being inside the macrocosm to begin with, nothing on the scans about the Subspace ever says that it is between the dimensions "of the macrocosm" only that it is vaguely "between dimensions", no specification if it is between the ones in the macrocosm or not, just that it is "between dimensions" which doesn't tell us much regarding which dimensions it is talking about, but considering the dimensions cited alongside the subspace are the likes of the Room of Spirit and Time/Hyperbolic Time Chamber, it is only natural to conclude that it is saying that it is between those dimensions and the Macrocosm.

-more on the above, it is also not said to be inside the macrocosm anywhere, nor do we have any particular reason to assume they are in the first place, the only statement we have about its placement is that it is "どの世界にも属さない"/"That which doesn't belong to the world" and "この他、【図1】の世界のどこにも属さない「亜空間」が存在している。Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1]." and "It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world" pretty much all statements about it talk about how it just doesn't belong in the world("world" used to describe the macrocosm in this context) so for all we can say, it isn't even inside the Universe/Macrocosm to begin with, some might say that the use of "world depicted in Fig 1" would give leadway for it still being in the non represented part of the macrocosm, however the third scan clarifies further by talking to the "world"/macrocosm in general without citing any figure, thus asserting that it truly doesn't exist in the macrocosm at all, as the spaces between its parts would count as being "part of the world"

-for the actual dimensional walls, In the famous scene of DBS: Broly, Gogeta and Broly at one point seemingly break reality and go into some weird space, which is confirmed to be outside of reality/Not exist in reality, which is also another dimension that is beyond 3D, this world is also said to be a cracked dimensional wall they broke after distorting space time severely, as we can see that outside of the reality of U7, makes the Universe still a Low 2-C space time, as the barriers that separate it from the outside are broken only by severe space time distortion and the space outside of it is a 4D space


1:20am now for me, this is the summary for the arguments in favor of the thread, if no one does the summary for the side against the OP, then i will try and do one tommorow, good night y'all

This seems to make sense to me. I'll agree with the thread for now.

 

[TiltedFN]

I'll give my summary, first of all I'll be addressing the physical walls separating the realms in dragon ball.

1.1 Afterlife physically connected​

The afterlife is in various times stated and/or implied to be physically separated from the Living World, not by an "dimensional" barrier like it was said in past threads, but a normal physical one with the Living World/Universe being "beneath" the afterlife(aka being physically beneath, which wouldn't really make sense for space times) and only separated by a "barrier engraved with a strange design" Engraved meaning to cut something in a material physically, aka the barrier separating them has to be physical to be able to be "engraved" upon, thus the Afterlife cannot be a separated dimension given that what separates it is a physical wall, which is even more supported by the word used to describe how it is separated "Hermetically" which means "in a way that is tightly closed so that no air can escape or enter" aka physically closed off in such a way that nothing, not even air, can get in or out, given all of this, we can assert for sure that the Afterlife is not another dimension outside of the Universe, but that it is simply an area of it that is completely closed off tightly via a physical wall separating both

Basically for this, the statements that say the living realm is closed off by normal physical barrier is in reference to the macrocosm map that toriyama drew up after he finished the manga. As you can see here, the "strange designs", and "hermetically sealed". This is not referencing the actual literal structure of the macrocosm, but the map itself that toriyama made to wrap our heads around, it wasn't supposed to be literal. Just to get a general idea of the world. To add on to this, the first time the map was shown in the guideboos was daizenshuu 4 where there was a diagram explaining the map. And then in daizenshuu 7, the map was actually explained in greater detail, its given a description of the actual map we see in daizenshuu 4. That SAME MAP that was said to NOT be literal, like I said, just to get a general idea of it all. Not to mention there is zero proof that normal flight is a way that you can travel to other realms like the afterlife and kaioshin realm. Only techniques like whis special warp flight, the special cube that hit was gonna use to travel universe, and IT or kai kai can travel to different dimensions. There is always interdimensional travel and teleportation techniques needed to access these places, no proof has also been provided that it's possible outside of the, "physical wall separation" arguments, which I have now addressed. Whis can flight can go to different dimensions like zeno's palace and neutral space, and so can kai kai, IT should also be capable of this since its like kai kai but requires ki sensing, so the point still stands. Physical travel like 3D movement not being possible is a standard for implying separate spacetimes, and special methods being needed to travel to these different dimensions. All of which dragon ball has.

Next I'll address the kaioshin separation.

1.2 Kaioshin Realm physically connected​

Similarly to the above, the Kaioshin Realm is said to be separated from the living world and the rest of macrocosm, but not by an Space Time barrier, but by a physical, crystal sphere around it, with the separation it has from the rest of the macrocosm being compared to how the Moon revolves around the Earth, aka a physical distance and separation, physically orbiting around something, in this case, the rest of the Universe

by the way, no scan saying that Kaioshin realm or the Afterlife are alternate dimensions is in the currently used cosmology blog, only that they are other "realms" thus their status as alternate dimensions is not something officially said, but a conclusion that we came up with based on the evidence presented, which as i explained above, it is wrong as they are both clearly physically in the same plane as the Living World given all physical descriptions for what separates both from it(A physical barrier and a great distance, respectively)

This is pretty much the same thing as the above arguments, the kaioshin realm just being a "crystal ball" floating around in the universe makes no sense at all, and trust me I'll get to those arguments soon enough, but the main thing is that the statement is also just describing the macrocosm map, the kaioshin realm is a different dimension that is completely separated from the living realm and other world. Also says it can only be entered by teleportation, while thats not true because whis can go there with his special flight, the point still stands that these special techniques can only be used to enter, NOT because of a physical wall. Was kid buu just gonna pull up to the kai realm and start knocking on the crystal like he was the fbi or something? Highly unlikely I'd say. There is a reason goku said buu wouldn't be able to get there, what stops buu from breaking that "crystal" if they are just floating around in the physical mortal universe lmao, it makes no goddamn sense at all. And how do they oversee the universe from the, "outside" if they are inside? it doesn't make a lick of sense, its also stated goku can never return to the world of the living again, but why? If they are just in a big floating crystal ball in outer space, he could easily go back if he needed to, but he needed life for it to happen. The worlds are constantly referred to being separate, existing in the same physical space isn't right, and definitely not conveyed. Not to mention these physical and crystal walls have never EVER been seen in the manga, or the anime, no movies, GT, nothing, Because it doesn't exist, and Ill keep repeating that toriyama made it just to wrap our heads around, something that was also made after the manga finished, its not to be taken literally, so many assumptions, and headcanon is needed to even make this sort of interpretation work. At that point its just making things up without on legit basis to it.

I kind of already addressed whis travel, but I'll tackle the time thing.

1.3 Whis' travels​

Basically, Whis' fast speed technique called Interplanetary movement(Which is described as him simply going very fast with regular movement speed) and the time it takes to go to places, this proves the connection between the Afterlife and the Living World more, as Whis' technique to go from Beerus' planet(Inside the universe) to the afterlife takes 26 minutes, but to go from Beerus' planet to another point in the universe(Earth) takes 35 minutes, which would be weird if the Afterlife is another space time/dimension. How can 2 points in the same space be further apart than a place that isn't in the same space at all? Sustaining this more, Beerus and Whis even say that Earth is "not too far away" from the Otherworld, and that it takes mere 3 minutes of travel to reach Earth from there.

So a supposed other space time is somehow not too far from another(3 minutes of travel), and is significantly far away from another point of it at the same time(26 minutes), and top of it all, 2 points in the same space time are even further away than the distance between the other space time(35 minutes)? This can only be possible if it is physically connected to the Living World, and these distances would be explained by it's position in comparison to these other places, as 3D distance shouldn't really matter when talking about distance from one space time to another

Yeah I already explained how whis warps space to get to different dimensions, and can also travel physically to other destinations, like beerus planet and earth. But how much time it takes to get to different realms is kind of irrelevant, all we really know is that his travel has interdimensional properties, and we have no idea when he reaches interdimensional travel on his way to different realms, its kind of just a nothing statement that doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, he can take time to travel to different dimensions, this isn't a defeating for traveling to different dimensions. Whis could literally fly for a bit and then travel through the dimensions if he needs to do that. We also don't know at which point in space he comes out of interdimensional travel, we really just don't know much about it, so this can't be used to say they aren't different dimensions, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Vados and all the angels use this as well, like when champa and vados went from universe to universe, 6 to 7, and needed vados to get to the kaioshin realm, just more supporting evidence.

Well the demon realm point speaks for itself.

1.4 Demon Realm​

Edit: This one is...........the thing that can change the dimensional aspect for the realms, see the Demon Realm is still called as treated as a realm, same terminology, same treatement as the others, yet it is blatantly said to be in another dimension, thus "realms" being used to describe "dimensions" is.....seemingly how they use the term then, and since this comes in the same guide about the physical barriers...........it creates a weird contradiction, therefore i would like for any staff that voted agreeing with the above to give an opinion on this point, else i wouldn't feel like applying the thread

Its literally called a different dimension, obviously its not the same as hell implying the two are separate, not to mention the demon realm is still the living realm, they are two dimensions separated from the afterlife and kaioshin realm.

As for the elder kai statement about not needing being able to sense energy because they are simply in a different dimension, thats wrong, elder kai states they are fighting in a different dimension of time, which is also known as the rosat. In the raw. Elder Kai isn’t necessarily answering Goku’s question. But he’s getting the realization of where they went. He says “Ah, they’re fighting in a world with a different dimension of time". Not to mention the rosat is sealed off from the outside world completely, goku stated it the reason they cant sense ki from the outside world is BECAUSE of the uniqueness of the rosat. So the rosat has specific properties that block ki sensing also, not just because its simply a different dimension, dimensions can have different properties. So this doesn't suddenly mean that all the realms are connected.

Now, as for some more of our arguments now that I got that stuff out of the way:

Living realm is said to be the opposite of the other world

Land of the kais is said to be separate from both worlds, implying they are different and don't exist in the same physical space

The realms of the macrocosm were called "dimensions" and the rosat exist between them. This was translated by executor and he gives us the correct interpretation for it that is clear as day. Since it says, "that which doesn't belong to any of the worlds" this means the worlds depicted in figure 1 which is the macrocosm as seen if you click the link and go through it. So between dimensions can ONLY mean that it exist between the living realm, afterlife, kaioshin realm, or whatever other realms. This was also before the multiverse was introduced so it can only mean those realms, and not some just random never before seen dimensions that its between. Also backed up by this scan saying rosat is an area of subspace, so there is no other interpretation to be had here. They are dimensions. Not to mention, all the realms of the macrocosm would have a separate time axis because of the subspace separating these realms.
Living realm was called the "lower realm" in this scan right here.

Demon realm was said to be another dimension opposite to the universe, which in the case refers to the mortal realm, more proof for the mortal realm and the demon realm being two dimensions both classified as the living realm. Separate dimensions.

Elder kai's crystal ball was said to be able to display scenes from other dimensions, these other dimensions are obviously the living realm, afterlife, and kaioshin realms, because thats from where they were watching the battle go down.

Also living realm having spatialtemporal separation via the rosat.

More statements of the demon realm being another dimension compared to where goku lives, the mortal universe, which backs them being different dimensions also.

Now that I've put out a ton of evidence that the realms are indeed different dimensions. Its time to talk about the logical inconsistency of the realms being physically in the same realm. Now first off, how did goku and beerus shockwaves get to those other realms if there was a big wall? It would of had to destroy those walls right? If so, why is physical travel to those realms still not possible at all? Why is physical travel not possible? And where is the proof that they are? Are the walls still broken? Did somebody fix them? Wouldn't the universe be thrown off balance if everyone can just freely travel to these transcendent realms that cant be perceived from the human realm? How does it make sense how the hell, the afterlife, and the living realm are ALL CONNECTED by a wall that has never been seen? Why is it not enough to believe the realms are SPATIALTEMPORALLY separated when its shown the realms are dimensions, disconnected by a non conceptual void, and having dimensions barriers between the two which you can break to get to and from other dimensions? The realms being in the same physical space means the living and the dead are actually separated by just a physical construct, that literally means they aren't actually separate, its like being in another room of a house, does that make sense when talking about these realms? Its way to much headcanon and absolutely unsupported by everything we have seen in the series. Now that these walls should logically be destroyed because of goku and beerus feat, the realms aren't truly separate anymore, and for some reason nobody cares? King kai, old kai, king yemma, nobody commented on this? Why? Ill tell you why, because the concept of these walls separating everything doesn't exist, and has never been shown or even implied to be exist across any type of dragon ball media ever. Its all based on the map which isnt literal, and would be ignoring the lore of the series, every single statement for the realms being dimensions, every statement of spatialtemporal separation, ignoring interpretations in place of ones that make no sense at all, a tone of other things. If you just look at the cosmology for a second, you can realize t doesn't work like that, you dont even have to be a power scaling to know the realms dont exist in the same physical space. When we look at the way the cosmology is structured and implied, not just the manga, but over every dragon ball series, it becomes quite silly to say they exist in the same physical space with never before seen walls that are physical separating them. Also please don't respond to this with a wall of text since this is a summary to make it easier for the staff, thanks.

​

 

[TiltedFN]

This seems to make sense to me. I'll agree with the thread for now.

Well you should probably read mine before you vote, mind pinging staff once more to re look over this and new staff that have no given their thoughts yet?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Well you should probably read mine before you vote, mind pinging staff once more to re look over this and new staff that have no given their thoughts yet?

All I can say is that something "seems to make sense" based on what I hear. I'm barely familiar with Dragon Ball at all, and I can only look at what you two say. @omegabronic Do you have anything to say against this response?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

All I can say is that something "seems to make sense" based on what I hear. I'm barely familiar with Dragon Ball at all, and I can only look at what you two say. @omegabronic Do you have anything to say against this response?

These are two summaries. Omega posted the summary defending his proposed revisions. Tilted posted the summary of the arguments opposing his proposed revisions.

Omega can respond if he wants but this is effectively a concluded thread. We just need staff to examine the two summaries and decide what they do and do not agree with. So we just need staff input to finally decide what will and will not pass.

 

[Omegabronic]

All I can say is that something "seems to make sense" based on what I hear. I'm barely familiar with Dragon Ball at all, and I can only look at what you two say. @omegabronic Do you have anything to say against this response?

I do, just woke up tho, will answer soon

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You have a summary ready? For a response I can get around to it late Monday or Tuesday.

Well, now our summary is accessible, could you take a look?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, now our summary is accessible, could you take a look?

Overall in a cosmology sense I'm leaning towards Tilted's position. The biggest counter evidence is Whis' travel powers, but taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that all universes exist in the same physical space at that point.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Overall in a cosmology sense I'm leaning towards Tilted's position. The biggest counter evidence is Whis' travel powers, but taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that all universes exist in the same physical space at that point.

Exactly, another world also separated living universe for one subspace, already accepted in vsbtles, it is also the case that dimensions have dimensional barriers separating, where Whis uses a distortion in space-time to enter the dimension, we have a profile explaining about this being dimensional travel, but as seen, Omega's arguments are brought from other repeated topics that we have already commented on the subject.

Thank you very much for your attention

Regarding the dimension of lights, it exists in the same Universe, to access it you have to distort space-time, how do i know? It is said to be a dimensional barrier in the Dragon Ball novel itself and we know that dimensional barriers exist separate from other dimensions in the Universe

Furthermore, about her being in another reality, this is a lie, as she is referring to her as a CG drawing in an interview taken from Dragon Ball super

Official Dragon Ball article where the CG says about them making a different 3 dimensional place trying to capture something that is a different dimension or something super dimensional. A battle in a different dimension and calling the place superdimensional. You are referring to the dimension in the form of mathematics

I want you to do something new that takes advantage of the characteristics of CG.'' It's going to be a technical story, but there is a software called "Unity" that is good at constantly moving things around with a lot of information in real time. It's software often used in games, but this time we're using it to battle in a place that doesn't actually exist, like a different dimension. Yokoo: If you give the software information about what kind of atmosphere it should have, it will create a CG world that will make you think, "How about something like that?" Seeing this, we were also surprised: "Wow, it's going to be like this!" Different dimensions are expressed in mathematical formulas and converted into 3D. The techniques I used in other works were developed in this work, but I still don't understand it (laughs).

I think it's kind of funny to say that the other world has a physical barrier separating it when the other world is the opposite of the living world and they are not physically connected (you can only go there by teleportation or dimensional travel).

Where the living reside. It is the opposite of the Other World, and is the universe comprised of the North, South, East, and West Galaxies

Now about the Kaioshin kingdom

The realm in which the Supreme Kai resides. It is located in neither the world of the living nor the Other World, and can only be entered via Instant Transmission

And the Kaioshin realm is completely outside the Universe and is not physically connected in any way

The central big ball has the worlds called the living world and afterlife, and the Kaiōshin oversee all that from the outside. As their antithesis, at the bottom of the big ball are the Makaiōshin, who govern evil. Currently, it seems the Kaiōshins' power is superior.

We all know that it is only possible to go to the Kaioshin realm through dimensional travel or teleportation (which is still used in the manga and anime itself) anime and manga confirm this



That's my last few cents for this thread

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Overall in a cosmology sense I'm leaning towards Tilted's position. The biggest counter evidence is Whis' travel powers, but taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that all universes exist in the same physical space at that point.

I second this plus I actually dont think Whis's travel abilities are any sort of counter. remember in DBS Whis actually time traveled himself to another timeline. I dont think anybody here would try to argue that different timelines arent separate time-spaces at least, so the fact that Whis's travel powers include traversing to another space-time altogether negates this "counter" completely. the Universes being spatio-temporally separated isn't contradicted by Whis's travel, because he can already travel to different timelines

 

[Omegabronic]

Exactly, another world also separated after death between subspace, already accepted in vsbtles, it is also the case that dimensions have dimensional barriers separating, where Whis uses a distortion in space-time to enter the dimension, we have a profile explaining about this being dimensional travel, but as seen, Omega's arguments are brought from other repeated topics that we have already commented on the subject.
Thank you very much for your attention

"distortion in space-time"? that is never said in the scan

 

[Omegabronic]

I second this plus I actually dont think Whis's travel abilities are any sort of counter. remember in DBS Whis actually time traveled himself to another timeline. I dont think anybody here would try to argue that different timelines arent separate time-spaces at least, so the fact that Whis's travel powers include traversing to another space-time altogether negates this "counter" completely. the Universes being spatio-temporally separated isn't contradicted by Whis's travel, because he can already travel to different timelines

how many times will i have to say that Whis' Travel point was only to talk about the distance of the Realms and not used as a counter in of itself because he traveld before people stop wrongly saying so?

anyway, updating my summary with stuff i missed yesterday right now

 

[Omegabronic]

btw, nearly finishing my update on my summary, just to clarify, @Executor_N0 clarified how he didn't meant to say that the Dimensions that the Subspace scan is talking about are the realms, he even says that he never intended to say it was part of the macrocosm as the scan says otherwise, therefore the only argument that is reliant on his interpretation of the scan taken as the irrefutable truth is not really valid anymore

 

[Omegabronic]

This seems to make sense to me. I'll agree with the thread for now.

finished my sumarry, you can tag some staff now, the ones in the last thread that yet have to comment are @Deagonx @LephyrTheRevanchist and @LordGriffin1000 whoever else you see as needed to tag, feel free

Overall in a cosmology sense I'm leaning towards Tilted's position. The biggest counter evidence is Whis' travel powers, but taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that all universes exist in the same physical space at that point.

does my updated Summary does anything for your opinion?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Deagonx @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordGriffin1000

 

[Killerdrone123]

btw, nearly finishing my update on my summary, just to clarify, @Executor_N0 clarified how he didn't meant to say that the Dimensions that the Subspace scan is talking about are the realms, he even says that he never intended to say it was part of the macrocosm as the scan says otherwise, therefore the only argument that is reliant on his interpretation of the scan taken as the irrefutable truth is not really valid anymore

Ah sorry if this is dumb but doesn't this prove what we are saying cause executor says that there is statement that proves subspace is a gap between dimensions and we were also saying that the realm of the macrocosms are separated by the gap of the subspace

Executor further clarifies that he said "between the dimension of the world/macrocosm" which further proves that the dimensions of the macrocosms are separated by subspace

 

[Omegabronic]

Ah sorry if this is dumb but doesn't this prove what we are saying cause executor says that there is statement that proves subspace is a gap between dimensions and we were also saying that the realm of the macrocosms are separated by the gap of the subspace

not really, Ex said himself that the other realms being the dimensions separated by the Subspace wasn't he meant the scan was saying, but rather 1 possible interpretation

the point of this was to disprove this notion that Ex gave a "true interpretation" of the scan, so that people using his words as "proof" of the correct interpretation were ahead of themselves as said interpretation wasn't what Ex was implying was the most likely one, with him even agreeing directly that Subspace is not part of the Macrocosm

Executor further clarifies that he said "between the dimension of the world/macrocosm" which further proves that the dimensions of the macrocosms are separated by subspace

notices how he says "dimension of the world" and not "dimensions", he isn't saying that the macrocosm has other dimensions, but that the dimension that is the macrocosm has that in between it and other dimensions, again, this is an interpretation as well, my beef was with people trying to use what Ex said to pin point only 1 possible truth, when that wasn't what he meant at all

 

[Killerdrone123]

not really, Ex said himself that the other realms being the dimensions separated by the Subspace wasn't he meant the scan was saying, but rather 1 possible interpretation

the point of this was to disprove this notion that Ex gave a "true interpretation" of the scan, so that people using his words as "proof" of the correct interpretation were ahead of themselves as said interpretation wasn't what Ex was implying was the most likely one, with him even agreeing directly that Subspace is not part of the Macrocosm


notices how he says "dimension of the world" and not "dimensions", he isn't saying that the macrocosm has other dimensions, but that the dimension that is the macrocosm has that in between it and other dimensions, again, this is an interpretation as well, my beef was with people trying to use what Ex said to pin point only 1 possible truth, when that wasn't what he meant at all

Broski he clearly said between the dimensions of the world/macrocosm he further provided the actual terminology used and how it meant gap between the dimensions the Imgur you provided literally proves what we were saying that the dimensions of macrocosm are separated by subspace it belonging in the macrocosm doesn't even matter now since the statement clearly say it separates the dimensions of the macrocosm



Like he clearly said dimensions

 

[Omegabronic]

Broski he clearly said between the dimensions of the world/macrocosm he further provided the actual terminology used and how it meant gap between the dimensions the Imgur you provided literally proves what we were saying that the dimensions of macrocosm are separated by subspace it belonging in the macrocosm doesn't even matter now since the statement clearly say it separates the dimensions of the macrocosm



Like he clearly said dimensions

My dude, i asked "did you meant that the other realms of the macrocosm are dimensions?" Which he said "no, that wasn't what i said" that alone should clarify his intent for you

He says that he said that because of the terminoly "gap between dimensions", not once with anything regarding the realms as being these other dimensions

Heck he says himself that such conclusion came from other people interpreting what he said and not from what he actually said

All this to say, it was simply an interpretation people had, it wasn't a thing he affirmed the scan was saying, he said so himself, if you had any problems talk to him yourself

 

[Killerdrone123]

My dude, i asked "did you meant that the other realms of the macrocosm are dimensions?" Which he said "no, that wasn't what i said" that alone should clarify his intent for you

He says that he said that because of the terminoly "gap between dimensions", not once with anything regarding the realms as being these other dimensions

Heck he says himself that such conclusion came from other people interpreting what he said and not from what he actually said

All this to say, it was simply an interpretation people had, it wasn't a thing he affirmed the scan was saying, he said so himself, if you had any problems talk to him yourself

You do realise then whenever db uses the word dimensions of the world/macrocosm they are often talking about things like kaioshin realm,demon realm etc further proven by the fact that they called demon realm a separate dimension nothing contradicts the fact that subspace could separate this realms and still wouldn't be limited to macrocosm.

 

[Omegabronic]

You do realise then whenever db uses the word dimensions of the world/macrocosm they are often talking about things like kaioshin realm,demon realm etc

Not really for Kaioshin realm, or any of the other inside the macrocosm realms, no

further proven by the fact that they called demon realm a separate dimension

Which as showed in my summary, might not even be part of the macrocosm given the connection it does with the ROSAT

nothing contradicts the fact that subspace could separate this realms and still wouldn't be limited to macrocosm.

There is nothing to be contradicted as the assertion wasn't proven to begin with, nothing says that Subspace is what separates the realms inside the macrocosm, we have statements saying otherwise for it not even being part of it at all to begin with

 

[Killerdrone123]

Not really for Kaioshin realm, or any of the other inside the macrocosm realms, no


Which as showed in my summary, might not even be part of the macrocosm given the connection it does with the ROSAT


There is nothing to be contradicted as the assertion wasn't proven to begin with, nothing says that Subspace is what separates the realms inside the macrocosm, we have statements saying otherwise for it not even being part of it at all to begin with

Demon realm not present in the macrocosm what are you even saying lol like I already said dimensions of the macrocosm is like the literally pretty clear cut give away that the subspace separates this dimensions

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

btw, nearly finishing my update on my summary, just to clarify, @Executor_N0 clarified how he didn't meant to say that the Dimensions that the Subspace scan is talking about are the realms, he even says that he never intended to say it was part of the macrocosm as the scan says otherwise, therefore the only argument that is reliant on his interpretation of the scan taken as the irrefutable truth is not really valid anymore

Nobody’s arguing the Subspace is apart of the macrocosm, but that it exists between them. Executor literally just said in that scan how it exists between the dimensions in figure 1 (aka the macrocosm). So it’s funny to say Executor isn’t saying that when he literally says that at the end.

For example, we have the neutral space which exists between the Universes, but it’s stated to exist in a different space from the 12 Universes because even though it exists between them it doesn’t exist in them.

Translation here:

 

[Killerdrone123]

Also while we are at the point of demon realm not being part of the macrocosm how this scans prove s that the demon realm is the part of the living universe and mentions under it

The term used here is この世

Which means this world or living universe

Not to mention in this scan we can clearly see them mentioning demon relam as part of the macrocosm

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

-snip-

Pretty much

I disagree with the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the arguments for each side here, along with a tally for which staff members here that think what, please?

 

[TiltedFN]

Can somebody summarise the arguments for each side here, along with a tally for which staff members here that think what, please?

If you just scroll up just a bit there are two summaries by me and omega

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody link to those posts please?

 

[TiltedFN]

Can somebody link to those posts please?

Heres mine, and heres omegas