Give me a summary of the arguments so I can call them.
here's mine:
-The Afterlife and Kaioshin realm are said to be separated by physical barriers from the living world,
an engraved wall(which means that this would need to be a physical wall given the meaning of "
engraved") in the case of the Afterlife, which even has a different term to refer to it in comparison to the Dimensional Walls cited later in the guidebook(
ドラゴンボールの世界では、宇宙はあの世の下に位置し、不思議な文様の刻まれた壁によって密閉されている。—utilizes the kanji,
壁 (
kabe), for
wall by itself, unlike how the
television anime exclusively specifies
次元の壁 or "
dimensional walls" when referencing the Room of Spirit and Time and Majin Buu's
Outside Space technique), and a
crystal wall sphere in the case of the Kaioshin realm, with the separation it has from the rest of the macrocosm being compared to how the Moon revolves around the Earth, aka a physical distance and separation, physically orbiting around something, in this case, the rest of the Universe
- the Afterlife is said to the "opposite" of the Living World, however "
opposite" only means that they are as different as possible, which given the lack of galaxies in the Afterlife + all other elements from it, is true, and "
on the other side of a particular area from somebody/
something and usually facing them" aka it is just more evidence that the Afterlife is on the opposite side compared to the living world, nothing that would imply that it is another space time
- Some also said that we never seeing the walls described is also,
which outside the fact that we do in the DBS manga, also isn't proof that they don't exist, but merely that we don't ever saw it, example, we also never saw the Grand Kai in the manga at all, but we do know he exists from statements, it not being shown doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means that it was never relevant enough to be shown
- arguments about statements of the Kaishin Realm being separated from the other realms have also been given, the "Instant Transmission" being the only way to get inside part of the statement is contradicted by Whis using a method that is factually not Instant Transmission(elaboration in points bellow) while the actual separation point is also not much proof given the description of said separation, that being a physical "moon like" separation where one orbits the other body, it being separated doesn't mean it is another dimension, much like how our moon is separated from the Earth while still being in the same dimension, it being a separated place in of itself really doesn't prove much, since either way they wouldn't be "inside" the universe, that as much is never said in this thread, but that they are outside in a physical manner rather than a dimensional one
- Goku did say that Kid Buu wouldn't be able to get there however, that might have some merit, but then again, there is also the other evidence for it not being another dimension given, so balance that with this if you so wish
- Goku is also said to not be able to go back to the World of the Living after he is dead.....but that is purely because of the rules Dead people have to abide by, Goku can Teleport to the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm and back without problems either way, so regardless of it being physically or spatially separated, it wouldn't matter for the point as he would have ways to go back either way, the rules for dead people stop that however as he needs permission to go back to the world of the living when he is dead, which is why he doesn't just teleports back after he dies
-some people may say that the descriptions are based arround the macrocosm map Toryama drew, but that cannot be the case, the descriptions also talk about several things that aren't in the map at all, like stars and nabulae, and about stuff intrinsical to the realms like their functions and placement in the order of the universe, that plus nothing ever saying that it is describing specifically the map makes it very convoluted to argue that it is only describing the map instead of describing what it is said to be describing, the macrocosm and its realms
-no statement says that the Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are other dimensions in the main canon are given, or at least, none was given in this thread so far
-Goku can sense and teleport to all the reals of the macrocosm without problem, but he couldn't sense Ki inside of the ROSAT, which is directly credited due
to the fact that it's a different dimension
-Some may say that, since the original text says "different dimension of time" then it doesn't mean that it is because it is another dimension, but the end result is the same either way, it having another dimension of time just means that it is in fact another dimension, so it doesn't really disprove the point, also was said the the ROSAT is closed off from the outside world, however, since the reason it would be closed from the outside world is that they are in another dimension, that is the most straight forward conclusion given the lack of elaboration on anything else regarding this "closed offness"
-Whis'
Interplanetary movement (
Which is described as him simply going very fast with regular movement speed, this not being teleportation at all)
and the time it takes to travel between the realms, to go from Beerus' planet(Inside the universe) to the afterlife takes 26 minutes, but to go from Beerus' planet to another point in the universe(Earth) takes 35 minutes, and then to go from the Afterlife to Earth only merely 3 minutes, which would be weird if the Afterlife is another space time/dimension. How can 2 points in the same space be further apart than a place that isn't in the same space at all? and then be less apart from to supposedly same alternate dimension it early took almost 10x more time to go to?
- Beerus directly says that Earth is "not very far away from here(King Kai's planet in the Afterlife) aka Earth is very close to a place that is supposedly a completely different dimension
- Some say how we don't know the specifics of Whis' travels, but we do, regardless of Interdimensional Travel or not, we do know that he is moving himself during the technique, as in, his body is moving, he is covering distance with it, as such when he goes to another dimension the same would be the case, with him going through the space between dimensions and what not that we know exists with the likes of Neutral Space, so if he takes more time to go to place, it is because it is further away, that much is said directly to us, which still makes the 3 minutes to Earth vs 26 Minutes to Beerus's planet meaninful, as it wouldn't make sense for the same travel(one dimension to the other in the interpretation that the realms are other dimensions) to take so much time apart from one another, and then to have travel to the same space(Beerus' Planet to Earth) to take so much more time, 45 minutes
- no statements say that only special ways can make one go to realms, in this thread people have severely given examples of techniques that can perform dimensional travel going to the realms, like Whis' Interplenetary movement and Goku's IT, but that doesn't prove much as said techniques can equally travel normal 3D distances, therefore there is nothing saying that only such techniques can make one go to the realms, it is an assumption based on nothing concrete as the evidence used to prove it doesn't really have to mean what they are saying it does, nor does it directly say what they say it does, it only proves that the techiques
CAN travel to the realms, not that they are
NECESSITY to go to the realms
- the only thing making the main cannon stay as other space times is the
Subspace, a conceptually timeless and spaceless realm, however the problem is the lack of statements supporting it even separating the realms and it even being inside the macrocosm to begin with, nothing on the scans about the Subspace ever says that it is between the dimensions "of the macrocosm" only that it is vaguely "between dimensions", no specification if it is between the ones in the macrocosm or not, just that it is "between dimensions" which doesn't tell us much regarding which dimensions it is talking about, but considering the dimensions cited alongside the subspace are the likes of the Room of Spirit and Time/Hyperbolic Time Chamber, it is only natural to conclude that it is saying that it is between those dimensions and the Macrocosm.
-more on the above, it is also not said to be inside the macrocosm anywhere, nor do we have any particular reason to assume they are in the first place, the only statement we have about its placement is that it is "どの世界にも属さない"/"That which doesn't belong to the world" and "この他、【図1】の世界のどこにも属さない「亜空間」が存在している。Also, there are subspaces
that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1]." and "It is a different dimensional world that
does not belong to any part of the world" pretty much all statements about it talk about how it just doesn't belong in the world("world" used to describe the macrocosm in this context) so for all we can say, it isn't even inside the Universe/Macrocosm to begin with, some might say that the use of "world depicted in Fig 1" would give leadway for it still being in the non represented part of the macrocosm, however the third scan clarifies further by talking to the "world"/macrocosm in general without citing any figure, thus asserting that it truly doesn't exist in the macrocosm at all, as the spaces between its parts would count as being "part of the world"
-people also use the fact that the Multiverse wasn't indroduced as evidence, outside of the fact that it was with Trunks and alternate timelines, but this is also a weird point, yeah the 12 universes weren't introduced, but that doesn't mean other dimensions couldn't be a thing, Subspace is very much established as being outside the Universe, despite what Ex's interpretation of the scan was, after he translated for all to understand the words, anyone's interpretation is as valid after that, his opinions alone aren't absolute end all be all, a proper 12 universe multiverse not being established doesn't mean that nothing outside of the universe couldn't be introduced, Ex
clarified to me how that interpretation wasn't even what he meant in his translation
-some may use this
translation to say that the "dimensions" cited in the statements are the realms of the macrocosm, however that isn't the case, as how we can see in the actual translation, nothing of shorts is ever inplied, Ex did provided his opinion on what the statement was talking about, however parts like "It is a different dimensional world that
does not belong to any part of the world" show clearly that this wasn't the case, as the space between the realms would be equally part of the macrocosm/world, and nothing on the scans ever mentions the realms as being the "dimensions" with the terminology used to refer to them always being different,
also supported by the ROSAT being directly said to not be part of the Universe,
@Chariot190 made a good summary of why it would mean U7
here
-for the actual dimensional walls,
In the famous scene of DBS: Broly, Gogeta and Broly at one point seemingly break reality and go into some weird space, which is confirmed to be
outside of reality/Not exist in reality,
which is also another dimension that is beyond 3D,
this world is also said to be a cracked dimensional wall they broke after distorting space time severely, as we can see that outside of the reality of U7, makes the Universe still a Low 2-C space time, as the barriers that separate it from the outside are broken only by severe space time distortion and the space outside of it is a 4D space
-another argument is the scene where Super Buu escapes the Rosat
back to U7, that however doesn't really prove that the individual realms have the same kind of Dimension Barrier of the ROSAT in each of them, as clarified how the ROSAT is outside the Macrocosm entirely, this only proves that the ROSAT has Dimensional Barriers separating it from the other dimensions, there isn't anything connecting this with the Living World directly or to any of the other realms
-The Demon Realm is said to not be in
the Living World, so the statements about it being part of it and thus of the macrocosm is also contradicted, specially when this statements compares both ROSAT and Demon Realm as examples as if they are comparable, with ROSAT alongside the Subspace being very much stablished as not being part of the Macrocosm, thus making the arguments using the Demon Realm as proof of other realms in the macrocosm being other dimensions isn't valid as it would also not be part of the macrocosm like how the ROSAT/Subspace is very much stablished to not be
the arguments i didn't mentioned here would be ones i legitimate think are good points, like Beerus' shockwaves reaching the other realms, however, even if they are other dimensions, they wouldn't really have anything for being other space times regardless given the Subspace not being inside of the Macrocosm and nothing other than it really proving space time separation for them
