Spaces in Times Dragon Ball revision

[Omegabronic]

This is a middle finger to reading comprehension,logic and whatever else you can think of. No offense meant.

i mean...........the ideas have to come first before one even draws and conceptualizes something........no?

So… you concede

that depends..........to what? sorry but i don't see how any of these changes the other evidence and the statements in the OP at all, you will have to be more clear here

Isn’t this thread about the manga too?

i mean.......yeah? doesn't both DBS anime and manga are equals in cosmology if such difference as the thing you pointed out exists

And well, neutral dimension also appears in DBS anime. So, what is your point here?

"Neutral dimension" is not a term i remember being used for it in the Anime "Neutral Space" is however

regardless.......are you guys really ignoring the scan blatantly showing the neutral space being the literal space between the 2 Universes? as in, the physical space? the universes physically touching and the space where they are touching being where the nameless planet is? like, if you take the DBS Anime showing you get none of the Universes being separate space times from one another.........they would all be 1 big space area

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

i mean...........the ideas have to come first before one even draws and conceptualizes something........no?

Wow, that's one way of saying nothing. By your logic Daizenshuu 4 references Daizenshuu 7 (the map references the description)...when Daizenshuu 4 came out before (???). I guess people working on it had retrocognition or something.

It's simple logic, you can't work your way around it. Especially when the source of said description in Daizenshuu 7 is directly cited and specifically so,if I may. (Daizenshuu 4 page 72. Guess what, the map?).

Regardless.......are you guys really ignoring the scan blatantly showing the neutral space being the literal space between the 2 Universes? as in, the physical space? the universes physically touching and the space where they are touching being where the nameless planet is? like, if you take the DBS Anime showing you get none of the Universes being separate space times from one another.........they would all be 1 big space area

Now I gotta address this point because,really...no.

1. That's not even touching, that's the two universes visually overlapping, which doesn't mean anything. Put an object in front of another, and if you view from a certain angle you'll see the same effect. And guess what? There's no actual physical contact.

It's literally just PoV/perception shit. You expect something as big as two whole universes to be portrayed a long distance away in such a small space like a screen? Be real.

2. Same visual who has the universes as two separate bubbles. Definitely sounds like the same space to me. Make it make sense, Omega.

And stop with the 'ignoring' and 'convenience' accusations considering you're using the same map you argued against in the previous thread. You're in no position to scold others. Think about what you're saying before writing.

 

[TiltedFN]

all this says is that he drew the map after all the story was done, not that the ideas he had for the how the world looked came as he was drawing it, of course ideas like the Kaioshin realm he must have had when he was writting the story that far and maybe had already drawn earlier versions of the map, but that is neither here or there

I never said the ideas were coming to him as he drew the map, but he made the map after he finished writing the manga. And btw the anime was already running before the manga ended. He added the kaioshin realm when he first introduced the map to be included in daizenshuu 4, and then the daizenshuu 7 described it, and some of those descriptions were from the map itself. So statements about there being physical walls will strange designs and hermetically sealed or not literal, because like I said, he only designed it to so we can wrap our heads around it. There has never once been mention of a physical wall separating the kaioshin realm or afterlife from the living realm. We know what separates everything are dimensional barriers. You keep saying that we haven't proved it, but you keep brushing everything off for no reason and using weird arguments. You couldn't even give proof that physical travel between realms is possible.

i mean..........you said yourself, even if abstracted, the map serves to show how the world is, it being used to represent which are of the universe they are talking about in the guide certainly doesn't disqualify them, specially when the statements about it are talking about the realms themselves

Omega, i'm telling you that it's not 100 percent literal, examples like the kaioshin realm being literally crystal, or the living realm being surrounded by a physical wall with designs on it, the wall we've never seen show up ANYWEHRE, not even mentioned in the series. You know what is mentioned? Dimensional barriers separating the living realm from the others, physical travel not being possible, only being able to get to other realms via interdimensional travel, that's what. But it all doesn't matter to you apparently. You can not prove that all the realms are in the same body of space with a ******* wall separating them, you don't even have to be a dragon ball expert to know that's a lie.

you didn't proved that yet......at max you proved that those exist to separate something outside the macrocosm from the inside of the macrocosm.....which is duh tbh

What are you even talking about? The rosat is literally sitting between dimensions in the subspace, what do you think "between dimensions" means? It means that its sitting between the living realm, afterlife, and all the other dimensions, the subspace is an area between dimensions of the macrocosm. That's how buu and gotenks screamed their way back, that's why interdimensional teleportation is needed, and special techniques like whis warp to get there, theres, physical flight isn't possible.

..........you do know that is the only map used to portray them in guidebooks rights?

....................................................................................what are you even talking about? They describe the universe based on the macrocosm map sometimes, but there's other statements about dimensional barriers separating the realms like the rosat, and the subspace, and kakarot statements that say the worlds are completely separate. What are you even trying to argue here? Just a big yap sesh. Toriyama himself portrays it differently, it was never meant to be hyper literal, just to give us an idea of what kind of realms make up the macrocosm, it showed us what the afterlife looked like, snakeway, where heaven is, but the living universe and kaioshin realm demonstrably do not have a wall with designs surrounding it, and the kaioshin realm isn't crystal.

which can be ignored if contradicts the main cannon, which was decided in another thread which even allowed us to use stuff from it in the first place

also any other games are not cannon, therefore not really relevant

Yeah and the scans that confirm the rosat is an area of subspace, that all the realms are completely separated from each other, no mentions of physical walls, and it being impossible to travel to these realms without special methods remains true and consistent across all dragon ball mediums. You are the on who's argument is 90 percent based off the non literal macrocosm map that toriyama uses. Ignoring evidence, showings, etc.

........you do know that if you use the Super depictions all the Universes share the same physical space, right? you did read the last point in the OP, right?

And I already said it doesn't matter, I proved they aren't physically touching, why do you think they were BETWEEN UNIVERSE 6 AND 7 AND WE WERE NEVER SHOWN THEM TOUCHING. Also by extremely easy to understand narrative implications, the universes CANT BE CONNECTED. They are portrayed to be separated, never once shown they are physically connected. Also the neutral space is the space that holds dimensions, because its 5th axis which we have literally been over.

yet you guys argued very hard for it in the earlier thread? now that you can dis use it to possibly prevent a downgrade you are quick to do so.......curious ain't it?

regardless, yeah, it isn't 100% accurate, but I am not even using the Map, but direct statements about the realms and situations that imply as such in the series itself, so

We we're arguing for the afterlife to be the top half of the macrocosm iirc, that it was clearly portrayed to be as big as the universe, along with the cosmos scan etc. We never argued its 100 percent literal or snakeway would be half the size of the universe, but it's clearly not. And there are some things accurate about it, such as where heaven is located, and some other things. You say you're using direct statements about the realms, but ignore when there's statements about the living realm being a spacetime and having a dimensional barrier.

not really? it is based around actual statements in verse, statements that do not regard the Map and other statements that do not even regard the macrocosm, but talk about a thing that is outside of it

Not at all, basically your whole crt is based on the description of the macrocosm diagram when it's not to be taken literally, with that out of the equation, your ENTIRE argument falls apart, you couldn't prove that you can physically get to the other realms, you admit that whis and teleportation uses interdimensional travel and that it's the only way to get to separate realms, and that its the only way actually shown and said to be impossible without it, even by goku in the manga.

they have not.........going back to the coversation, there is still nothing that puts them as other dimensions, worst yet, nothing that puts them as other space times

Yes they literally have, you just won't take a close look at the evidence.

what am i saying can't be used again? the Map? if you are arguing that it can be used, well it would be weird that what you said imediatly before in this very comment

The depiction in the dbs anime, you argued if we use that it can't be 2-C, which I explained was extremely wrong.

they do tho, wait, are you talking about the Super depiction? the one where the Universes are literally touching each other physically and thus ocupying the same space?

No the contradictions don't exist, and they aren't physically touching each other, if they were, how were they between the universes that are separated by a dimension? What you're doing is nitpicking the anime frame by frame to try and find a picture where they look really close to each other in a zoomed out shot VERY far away to try and prove it. Which is disingenuous, we are shown they aren't connected.

no, but them physically touching and thus being connected physically certainly does

Too bad they aren't physically touching.

first of all, that is the manga, which in this case is very clearly different from the anime given all we ever saw of the neutral space in it

second of all, yes they do if you follow that scene given the literal shot showing them being physically connected, like, clear cut showing, good luck trying to argue against what is visually showed ig

Who cares if this is the manga? Toriyama is literally the one that game them the outline for the episode and what he wanted it to be like, he then implemented this in his manga that was behind the anime, and it literally functions the same, all thats different is we dont get the zoomed out shot of the universes, thats IT. Its called a neutral dimension, there is literally no difference.

i can count a dozen, at max 12 galaxies in the shot you are showing, not millions of them, so........duh, of course it doesn't zoom out, there are just so few galaxies being covered

also the Universe has like, Trillions of galaxies so millions ain't worth much of anything

Omega your arguments are getting very barebone now and you're saying a lot of nothing. The point is that zoomed out shot doesn't show us how much distance is between the universes, we never even SEE the universes anywhere NEAR each other from the perspective of in between the universes, to the point where SS can expand across millions of galaxies and stars in the background, and we didn't see the universes at all, that means they clearly are not separated, and you have to nitpick a frame to try and prove they are. Like I can't make you understand if you refuse to be logical.

light physically traveling between and into both does........also, statement about them acting differently? do you have proof of that?

also again, physically touching............pretty sure i wrote that in the OP, dunno why you are missing that detail

Also again, that literally doesn't prove shit, they are literally in a space that holds the universes, and SS energy produced a light that can traverse those distances and interact with the universe because they are sitting on a literal higher dimension, what does it matter?

prove that they are different dimensions to begin with and then we can begin talking about that

I cant if you ignore all evidence

no, it was based around the statement about the realms that the map, as a illustration of them, had to follow to be drawn in the first place as the ideas have to come first before one draws something as that is how drawing something works

also i love how you are ignoring all the other evidence that does not come from the pages and scans you are covering and somehow saying that it is the "base of the thread" when it ain't even 35% of it

Omega, the statements about the realms in some cases were based of THE MAP THAT TORIYAMA DREW!!! HERMETALLCLY SEALED WALLS???? STRANGE DESINGS? OMEGA ITS DESCRIBING THE LITERAL MAP THATS SUPPOSED TO BE TAKEN NON LITERALLY!! Also omega did you forget the map was drawn AFTER the manga ended, with the anime only 6 months behind? Literally means toriyama probably didn't even have that idea implemented about how he wanted to draw the map artistically, which is all it is, an artistic visualization.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

that depends..........to what? sorry but i don't see how any of these changes the other evidence and the statements in the OP at all, you will have to be more clear here

The point is that you argue that there is a physical barrier with engraved designs that surrounds the living world, based on the description of Daizenshuu 7. However, this description, as I have shown, is based on the drawing of the macrocosm of Daizenshuu 4, so arguing a physical barrier based on a drawing or design because... it’a wrong.

are you guys really ignoring the scan blatantly showing the neutral space being the literal space between the 2 Universes? as in, the physical space? the universes physically touching and the space where they are touching being where the nameless planet is? like, if you take the DBS Anime showing you get none of the Universes being separate space times from on

There you can see that there is a void around the universes, which proves that they coexist in parallel, implying a spatio-temporal separation. The universes are not connected, they are adjacent which is different.

 

[TiltedFN]

The point is that you argue that there is a physical barrier with engraved designs that surrounds the living world, based on the description of Daizenshuu 7. However, this description, as I have shown, is based on the drawing of the macrocosm of Daizenshuu 4, so arguing a physical barrier based on a drawing or design because... it’a wrong.



There you can see that there is a void around the universes, which proves that they coexist in parallel, implying a spatio-temporal separation. The universes are not connected, they are adjacent which is different.

Lmao not to mention the characters were literally between universes and they weren't touching, they weren't even visible, this is trying to nitpick the smallest frames, its crazy.

 

[Omegabronic]

Wow, that's one way of saying nothing. By your logic Daizenshuu 4 references Daizenshuu 7 (the map references the description)...when Daizenshuu 4 came out before (???). I guess people working on it had retrocognition or something.

i didn't say one was mentioning the other, i said that the map logically had to be drawn based on the ideas Akira had for how the cosmology was structured, which we were given direct descriptions later on

It's simple logic, you can't work your way around it. Especially when the source of said description in Daizenshuu 7 is directly cited and specifically so,if I may. (Daizenshuu 4 page 72. Guess what, the map?).

i mean, it is pointing at realm they are talking about to represent which realm they are talking about...........i don't see how that invalidates the statements about the realms themselves, specially when said statements don't mention "in the map" in any part

1. That's not even touching, that's the two universes visually overlapping, which doesn't mean anything.
Put an object in front of another, and if you view from a certain angle you'll see the same effect. And guess what? There's no actual physical contact.

no? they are touching, connected, that is a clear giving the outline of both of them merging within each other rather than a circle being above one another

It's literally just PoV/perception shit. You expect something as big as two whole universes to be portrayed a long distance away in such a small space like a screen? Be real.

i mean, i have seen some distance being put between Universes in some depictions, i certainly don't expect them to be completely touching one another and their spaces leading into one another as the depiction of Super Shenron shows

2. Same visual who has the universes as two separate bubbles. Definitely sounds like the same space to me. Make it make sense, Omega.

that is the point......it doesn't show them as separate bubbles, but rather two interconnected bubbles physically leading into one another

And stop with the 'ignoring' and 'convenience' accusations considering you're using the same map you argued against in the previous thread. You're in no position to scold others. Think about what you're saying before writing.

which i have clarified i changed my instance in after hearing the points of the people here, but allas, ur right, i will stop talking about things not directed at the argument at hand

I never said the ideas were coming to him as he drew the map, but he made the map after he finished writing the manga. And btw the anime was already running before the manga ended. He added the kaioshin realm when he first introduced the map to be included in daizenshuu 4, and then the daizenshuu 7 described it, and some of those descriptions were from the map itself.

all this to say "he had ideas about how the cosmology was, he then drew a map to illustrate said ideas" how does that invalidate said ideas being said to us again?

more over, how does this disqualify the statements that are not even in the same page nor are depicting in the Map at all?(Subspace)

So statements about there being physical walls will strange designs and hermetically sealed or not literal, because like I said, he only designed it to so we can wrap our heads around it.

he design the universe in a simple way to be easy to understand.......but that is still how he designed the Universe nonetheless, that description is still how the universes function in verse, nothing really contradicts that, besides, those descriptions were where the "teleportation is the only way for one to reach the kaioshin realm" statement is, if you discard it, you are also kind of discarding the evidence you were using to prove it as an another dimension in the first place

There has never once been mention of a physical wall separating the kaioshin realm or afterlife from the living realm.

......yes there is.......it is quite literally there in the OP, you not

We know what separates everything are dimensional barriers.

no we don't, again, you didn't provided anything saying that what separates Afterlife and Kaioshin realm from the living world are dimensional barriers, specially the ones from the ROSAT which are very much stated to not be in the Universe at all

You keep saying that we haven't proved it, but you keep brushing everything off for no reason and using weird arguments.

......brushing what off? what weird arguments? clear cut, you didn't provided anything that even remotely suggests that the Afterlife or the Kaioshin realm are separated by some "space time dimensional walls" and you keep using the example of a dimension very clearly not inside the Macrocosm at all

You couldn't even give proof that physical travel between realms is possible.

i did give, again, in the OP

Omega, i'm telling you that it's not 100 percent literal

the map? yeah, the information given about the realms? no reason for it not to be, the ideas Akira had about how the cosmology is would be what he used to draw the map, these ideas being spoken to us directly later on doesn't magically make them invalid

, examples like the kaioshin realm being literally crystal, or the living realm being surrounded by a physical wall with designs on it, the wall we've never seen show up ANYWEHRE, not even mentioned in the series.

1 i am not using the map, but the description of the realms

2 not being seen =/= doesn't exist, we know it exists because it is directly told to us that it does, regarldless, you are ignoring the rest of the OP that doesn't rely on those 2 scans, so.......

You know what is mentioned? Dimensional barriers separating the living realm from the others

provide that statement, the only one you have is for a Dimension outside the Macrocosm separating it from the said Macrocosm, which as i said, doesn't prove that what separates the realms inside the macrocosm( which have no relation to the ROSAT and Subspace at all) are separated by the same dimensional barriers, or by dimensional barriers at all

like, dude, this is what? the 5th time i repeat this only for you to repeat the same phrase again? i don't see how you could see this as productive

, physical travel not being possible,

that isn't said at all, not without the very statements and descriptions you are trying to make invalid that is, you want the descriptions to be invalid? you also need to take that information that comes exclussively from them as not being valid as well, can't have your cake and eat it too

only being able to get to other realms via interdimensional travel, that's what.

that being the only way to reach them is also never said, we know that it can reach them, but that is like, kind of obvious regardless of spatial separation or not, so unless you have a statement saying that such things are a necessity to access them, you can't really affirm that they are

But it all doesn't matter to you apparently. You can not prove that all the realms are in the same body of space with a ******* wall separating them, you don't even have to be a dragon ball expert to know that's a lie.

i can prove that it is, i have done so in the OP with direct statements saying such and other statements and happenings from Super also implying closeness between them

What are you even talking about? The rosat is literally sitting between dimensions in the subspace, what do you think "between dimensions" means? It means that its sitting between the living realm, afterlife, and all the other dimensions

not really when, and i can't believe you keep ignoring this, the ROSAT alongside Subspace is said to not belong anywhere in the macrocosm at all, and what do i think that "between dimensions" mean? simple, that it is between dimensions, which the realms in the macrocosm are never said to be in the first place, thus it doesn't imply at all that they are between the realms of the macrocosm, but between dimensions instead, as that is what is said about them

how can a place said to not be anywhere inside a thing be what separates the parts of said thing? how does that make any sense at all?

, the subspace is an area between dimensions of the macrocosm.

show me literally anything saying that, more over, show me anything saying that the realms you are so hard to affirm are other dimensions actually are other dimensions

That's how buu and gotenks screamed their way back

they broke a dimensional wall to get back, this proves nothing on the position of the ROSAT or the ssaid dimensional wall at all

that's why interdimensional teleportation is needed , and special techniques like whis warp to get there

again, that is never said, the one thing saying something remotely similar is something you are arguing isn't valid

, theres, physical flight isn't possible.

again, nothing is ever said about this, and like above, the one thing you used to even say such you paradoxically also arguing that isn't valid

....................................................................................what are you even talking about? They describe the universe based on the macrocosm map sometimes, but there's other statements about dimensional barriers separating the realms like the rosat, and the subspace

the statements of the ROSAT and Subspace are NOT about the Realms as both of them are not PART OF THE MACROCOSM TO BEGIN WITH

also, no, the macrocosm map is purely the only way the macrocosm is ever depicted when talking about it in the guides

and kakarot statements that say the worlds are completely separate.

since when is Kakarot a guide? regardless, as i said, Kakarot is not as much priority as the actual manga and its guides, which say otherwise, so

What are you even trying to argue here? Just a big yap sesh.

that the description of the realms is......the description of the realms.........how did you not get that?

Toriyama himself portrays it differently, it was never meant to be hyper literal, just to give us an idea of what kind of realms make up the macrocosm

it was to give an idea of how it is structured

, it showed us what the afterlife looked like, snakeway, where heaven is

so what you are saying that it is accurately represents how all the aspects look like exept only 2 of them for some arbitraly reason?

regardless, i am using the statements about the realms and not the map as an argument, so i don't even know why are hyperfocusing on the map right now

but the living universe and kaioshin realm demonstrably do not have a wall with designs surrounding it,

if you could prove this when we are said otherwise i would agree

and the kaioshin realm isn't crystal.

......don't distort the point please, the Kaioshin realm is surrounded by a crystal barrier, the realm itself is not made of Crystal

Yeah and the scans that confirm the rosat is an area of subspace

which also confirm that it isn't part of the macrocosm at all, making it irrelevant to the discussion about the realms of the macrocosm

that all the realms are completely separated from each other, no mentions of physical walls

in what way are they described as "separated"? can you give the scan real quick?

, and it being impossible to travel to these realms without special methods remains true and consistent across all dragon ball mediums.

again, that part is not something you proved or showed any statement for yet, the one statement that could be used to say this is the one you are saying is invalid to use, therefore your point kind has no points to it

You are the on who's argument is 90 percent based off the non literal macrocosm map that toriyama uses. Ignoring evidence, showings, etc.

i am NOT arguing using the map, but using the description explaining how the realms function and are in according to one another

and no, i am ignoring nothing

And I already said it doesn't matter, I proved they aren't physically touching

no you didn't, you didn't showed anything even remotely suggesting this, at max you showed that another dimension and space outside of the macrocosm entirely is not touching the said macrocosm......which no duh, i am doing the same in the OP as a major point

, why do you think they were BETWEEN UNIVERSE 6 AND 7 AND WE WERE NEVER SHOWN THEM TOUCHING.

yes we are, we litterally are, that is also a point for that depiction to have been retconned, again, in the OP

Also by extremely easy to understand narrative implications, the universes CANT BE CONNECTED. They are portrayed to be separated, never once shown they are physically connected.

......yeah, that is the point of 2.3 in the OP......why are you arguing against something that i already agreed upon in the OP?

Also the neutral space is the space that holds dimensions, because its 5th axis which we have literally been over.

it isn't in the Super Shenron scene you guys used as evidence, again, that is the point in 2.3

We we're arguing for the afterlife to be the top half of the macrocosm iirc, that it was clearly portrayed to be as big as the universe, along with the cosmos scan etc. We never argued its 100 percent literal or snakeway would be half the size of the universe, but it's clearly not. And there are some things accurate about it, such as where heaven is located, and some other things.

and given the statements about the realms, the other things would be as well

regardless as i said, i am not even using the map, so that is not a good argument against me when i am not using it

You say you're using direct statements about the realms, but ignore when there's statements about the living realm being a spacetime

literally when is that said?

and having a dimensional barrier.

how many times do i have to repeat this? DIMENSIONAL WALLS OF THE ROSAT, WHICH IS VERY HARDLY SAID TO NOT EVEN BE IN THE MACROCOSM IN THE FIRST PLACE, DO NOT SERVE AS PROOF THAT THE LIVING WORLD HAS DIMENSIONAL BARRIERS SEPARATING IT FROM THE OTHER REALMS LIKE THE AFTERLIFE

all this shows is that a dimensional outside of the macrocosm has things separating it from the said macrocosm......which again, do not prove anything for the stuff inside the macrocosm

Not at all, basically your whole crt is based on the description of the macrocosm diagram when it's not to be taken literally

nope, the 2 initial points are based around the actual statements about the realms, not around the Macrocosm map

, with that out of the equation, your ENTIRE argument falls apart, you couldn't prove that you can physically get to the other realms,

how does that could possibly affect the points about what is said in Super? or the Subspace scans? you don't seen to actually know what the OP is arguing fully if you truly believe the 2 initial points are all there is of it

you admit that whis and teleportation uses interdimensional travel and that it's the only way to get to separate realms

ok now you are straight up lying, i NEER ADMITED SUCH A THING, don't lie about what i admited or not, that's rude

, and that its the only way actually shown and said to be impossible without it
, even by goku in the manga.

still waiting for that scan btw

Yes they literally have, you just won't take a close look at the evidence.

no there isn't, i took a close look, hence why i can assert for certain that there isn't

The depiction in the dbs anime, you argued if we use that it can't be 2-C, which I explained was extremely wrong.

i see......well, your only argument against why it makes 2-C impossible is that they aren't touching.......which, no, they clearly are, all the rest is you presenting evidence outside the scene, in which the point is the scene being contradictory, so you using pieces of evidence that do not relate to the fact that the universes are physically touching do not disprove that they are in that scene

No the contradictions don't exist, and they aren't physically touching each other, if they were, how were they between the universes that are separated by a dimension?

not stated to be separated by a dimension in the Anime iirc, also one doesn't stop the other now, does it?

What you're doing is nitpicking the anime frame by frame to try and find a picture where they look really close to each other in a zoomed out shot VERY far away to try and prove it.

i am not nickpicking, i am explaining how that entire scene contradicts material later on, making it non reliable for any use

Which is disingenuous, we are shown they aren't connected.

we are never SHOW they aren't connected, the one visuals shows them connected, other happening later on disprove the entire scene tho

Too bad they aren't physically touching.

too bad that they are, factually so

Who cares if this is the manga? Toriyama is literally the one that game them the outline for the episode and what he wanted it to be like, he then implemented this in his manga that was behind the anime, and it literally functions the same, all thats different is we dont get the zoomed out shot of the universes, thats IT.

the manga uses the Macrocosm map to depict the universes, the anime doesn't, the manga and the anime already diverged in both history, number of timelines, and Ki usage, they are both based around Akira's notes, but they aren't 100% 1 to 1 with one another

Its called a neutral dimension, there is literally no difference.

show scan please, only remember it being called "space"

Omega your arguments are getting very barebone now and you're saying a lot of nothing. The point is that zoomed out shot doesn't show us how much distance is between the universes, we never even SEE the universes anywhere NEAR each other from the perspective of in between the universes

we do see them literally touching, therefore in that scene the neutral space would be where they touch, in which we obviously wouldn't see the individual universes

, to the point where SS can expand across millions of galaxies and stars in the background, and we didn't see the universes at all

that is a lie, there is only about 20 or so, he is not millions of galaxies big at all

that means they clearly are not separated, and you have to nitpick a frame to try and prove they are. Like I can't make you understand if you refuse to be logical.

just as i can't make you understand something literally shown if you refuse to even remotely accept it as truth, aka, the feeling mutual pal

Also again, that literally doesn't prove shit, they are literally in a space that holds the universes

....."holds the universes"? can you......show evidence of such bizarre statement? the max we were said is that it is a space between them, nothing more

, and SS energy produced a light that can traverse those distances and interact with the universe because they are sitting on a literal higher dimension, what does it matter?

you do know that the entire argument is that they are purely in the space where the Universes connect right? aka "between them", and that is what the entire scene contradictory, right?

I cant if you ignore all evidence

i can't when i am not doing that, all the proofs you showed were things that do not prove what you are saying they do, simple as that

Omega, the statements about the realms in some cases were based of THE MAP THAT TORIYAMA DREW!!!

..........they were statements showing the ideas Tori had about how the universe functions, hence why it also talks about stuff that isn't design, like their functions, society inside, etc

HERMETALLCLY SEALED WALLS???? STRANGE DESINGS? OMEGA ITS DESCRIBING THE LITERAL MAP THATS SUPPOSED TO BE TAKEN NON LITERALLY!!

no, it is describing the ideas of how these realms function and are, it using the map to represent easily each they are talking about does not invalidate them

Also omega did you forget the map was drawn AFTER the manga ended, with the anime only 6 months behind? Literally means toriyama probably didn't even have that idea implemented about how he wanted to draw the map artistically, which is all it is, an artistic visualization.

the Map had to be based around the idea Tori had about how the macrocosm functions, the map is shape by the ideas he had, not the opposite, him conceptualizing comes first from the thing he draws representing said conceptualization, not the opposite

 

[Omegabronic]

The point is that you argue that there is a physical barrier with engraved designs that surrounds the living world, based on the description of Daizenshuu 7. However, this description, as I have shown, is based on the drawing of the macrocosm of Daizenshuu 4,

considering that the descriptions only talk about the realms and the macrocosm and

so arguing a physical barrier based on a drawing or design because... it’a wrong.

based on what? statements and showing of things outside the macrocosm not having them? a depiction that contradicts later showings?

what evidence do you guys have about the living world or the macrocosm specifically that contradicts the descriptions in the daizenshu?

besides, even if the realms are not physically conected, they still wouldn't be space times as the only thing that would make them space times is something said to not be a part of the macrocosm at all (subspace, ROSAT, Dimensional Barriers shown first in the ROSAT, etc)

There you can see that there is a void around the universes, which proves that they coexist in parallel, implying a spatio-temporal separation. The universes are not connected, they are adjacent which is different.

and as you can see in the middle, it also shows the universe touching one another, with the space of one leading to the other and etc

 

[BOEGVELD]

They dont say "btw the cosmos, is a spacetime continuum", so no, it isnt.

Can you cite any credible source(s) that describe the cosmos as anything other than the universe or spacetime continuum in Cosmology?

 

[BOEGVELD]

well, it is kind of obvious which meaning is then being used

Here. But you do realize that the statement you're using does not refer to the hermetically barrier as the one separating the Living World and the Other World, right? In fact, this statement is specifically referring to the universe and not even the entirety of the Living World.

It being an higher, transcendental dimension was, else Uni in DB would be Low 1-C by now

Transcendental as in Qualitatively Superior, yes, I know, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it being a transcendental dimension, compared to the Living World, at bare minimum confirms it's a separate dimension.

Ignoring the weirdness of the statement as i pointed out

I don't see what's weird about it. It verbatim states that the Demon World is in another dimension. It being on the other side of the universe should make them comparable structures.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

what evidence do you guys have about the living world or the macrocosm specifically that contradicts the descriptions in the daizenshu?

Let's see, in the previous thread you said that the DBS anime universe contradicts the Daizenshuu map, and now you ask us to prove that the map described in Daizenshuu 7 does not contradict it? I think it's kinda strange.

Anyway, you are the one who affirms that the Afterlife and the living world are physically connected, so the burden of proof falls on you to prove this, because I have already shown that the description of Daizenshuu 7 only refers to the map, instead of being a literal description, and you have accepted this verbatim, so I will ask you the following questions:

1) Do you have proof that that wall with strange designs exists in a real way, and not as a design, in the universe of Dragon Ball, separating Afterlife and the living world?

2) Do you have proof of any regular travel made between the Afterlife and the living world, which contradicts the idea that these are separate worlds?

2.1) If your answer is Whis' travel, then is Whis' travel, capable of crossing universes in anime and manga, and even capable of reaching Zeno’s palace, which is in a space different from the 12 universes, a normal travel?

besides, even if the realms are not physically conected, they still wouldn't be space times as the only thing that would make them space times is something said to not be a part of the macrocosm at all (subspace, ROSAT, Dimensio

Again, you are assuming that ROSAT doesn’t ñ belong to the universe, when the thread of @BestMGQScalerEver that was accepted, shows that it is, and even your arguments were rejected in that thread.

ROSAT so far does belong to the universe, as well as the subspace, which exists between the realms, as there is a void around the universe, so that implies spatio-temporal separation, which grants the previously established 2-C level.

and as you can see in the middle, it also shows the universe touching one another, with the space of one leading to the other and etc

Are you sure?

 

[LordDestroit10K]

and as you can see in the middle, it also shows the universe touching one another, with the space of one leading to the other and etc

And even, there is a void outside that area, the spatio-temporal separation exists, it’s not necessary to explain this…

 

[Chariot190]

Are you sure?

Dont even gotta draw a line bro

 

[Robo432343]

i disagree with the thread but even i see that

 

[LordDestroit10K]

Dont even gotta draw a line bro

During Super Shenron summoning



And after Super Shenron got summoned



…. Well, it's kinda ridiculous to start comparing frame by frame to conclude if the universes are connected, when it is seen that there is a void outside of these (deniable fact), which for obvious and previously explained reasons, involve spatio-temporal separation.

 

[Chariot190]

During Super Shenron summoning



And after Super Shenron got summoned



…. Well, it's kinda ridiculous to start comparing frame by frame to conclude if the universes are connected, when it is seen that there is a void outside of these (deniable fact), which for obvious and previously explained reasons, involve spatio-temporal separation.

Dog, it's all the same 10 second scene, the uni's don't change angle, pov, anything



Idc about the argument, but your red line scaling is straight up wrong

 

[Killerdrone123]

At that time Goku and co were between the space of u7 and u6 so obviously they aren't touching not to mention the fact that the u6 vs u7 tournament took place on a nameless planet which is in between space of u6 and u7

 

[LordDestroit10K]

At that time Goku and co were between the space of u7 and u6 so obviously they aren't touching not to mention the fact that the u6 vs u7 tournament took place on a nameless planet which is in between space of u6 and u7

Ofc, in there is a NEUTRAL SPACE, that means there is a space between both universes, not belonging to any universe, that's why it's neutral. It's logical…..

 

[Chariot190]

Ofc, in there is a NEUTRAL SPACE, that means there is a space between both universes, not belonging to any universe, that's why it's neutral. It's logical…..

When talking about Uni sized spaces, saying they were in neutral space isnt an argument, like we can SEE there's empty space between them, but that also doesnt mean the edges dont **** with each other at any point, both can be true given the scope of the objects.

And worst of it, where the light, ie, where they were, isnt the issue


It's right above it actually, the spheres overlap just a bit, if you outline both as complete spheres, the lines will cross a tad.

Personally I dont think Uni6/7 connected and it's prob a angle thing, but it's true the spheres do overlap briefly (unless uni 6 is a bit concaved?).

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Ofc, in there is a NEUTRAL SPACE, that means there is a space between both universes, not belonging to any universe, that's why it's neutral. It's logical…..

Even the worst of AIs would see the gap between the bubbles there,lol.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

Personally

Glad to read that…

 

[Omegabronic]

Here. But you do realize that the statement you're using does not refer to the hermetically barrier as the one separating the Living World and the Other World, right? In fact, this statement is specifically referring to the universe and not even the entirety of the Living World.

No, the hermetically sealed part is in direct mention of the barrier after mentioning the afterlife and how it is beneath it.....it is in direct mention of the afterlife that it cited

Transcendental as in Qualitatively Superior, yes, I know, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it being a transcendental dimension, compared to the Living World, at bare minimum confirms it's a separate dimension.

No, being transcendental dimensionally can ONLY mean QS, if that meaning is contradicted, which it is, then the statement doesn't hold weight as the one thing it is implying isn't hold truth

I don't see what's weird about it. It verbatim states that the Demon World is in another dimension. It being on the other side of the universe should make them comparable structures.

"Other side" implies that it is inside, other dimensions aren't connected physically for "sides" to matter

Let's see, in the previous thread you said that the DBS anime universe contradicts the Daizenshuu map, and now you ask us to prove that the map described in Daizenshuu 7 does not contradict it? I think it's kinda strange.

Not really, i still say that the Dbs anime contradicts it, the last thread was about size, so of course i wouldn't bring up the space time contradictions i had with it

Plus you do know you are defending the oposite map that you did last thread, right?

Anyway, you are the one who affirms that the Afterlife and the living world are physically connected, so the burden of proof falls on you to prove this, because I have already shown that the description of Daizenshuu 7 only refers to the map, instead of being a literal description, and you have accepted this verbatim, so I will ask you the following questions:

No i didn't accepted that verbatim at all, i am still using the description of the realms themselves and not the map

Besides you do realize that i have other scans and evidence other than the 3 scans you guys have been talking right? Wonder why you guys are ignoring them

1) Do you have proof that that wall with strange designs exists in a real way, and not as a design, in the universe of Dragon Ball, separating Afterlife and the living world?

Yes........it is verbatim said to exist

2) Do you have proof of any regular travel made between the Afterlife and the living world, which contradicts the idea that these are separate worlds?

No, but i do have proof that spatially speaking the afterlife is closer to the livinf wolrd than other points in the living world, which are just as damming evidence

2.1) If your answer is Whis' travel, then is Whis' travel, capable of crossing universes in anime and manga, and even capable of reaching Zeno’s palace, which is in a space different from the 12 universes, a normal travel?

This honestly doesn't matter as i didn't used it ever, if you guys could so kindly stop lying about the arguments i used it would be ever so lovely

Again, you are assuming that ROSAT doesn’t ñ belong to the universe, when the thread of @BestMGQScalerEver that was accepted, shows that it is, and even your arguments were rejected in that thread.

It was accepted then, which doesn't for this thread trying to change it, i present other arguments, staff agreed this time with them, won't discuss this further as changing what was previously accepted is the entire point of a CRT

ROSAT so far does belong to the universe, as well as the subspace, which exists between the realms

directly said to not be the case

, as there is a void around the universe, so that implies spatio-temporal separation, which grants the previously established 2-C level.

It isn't a void, it has stars and matter in it.....that isn't a good point

Are you sure?

considering that you needed to draw the line over the universe, inside of it, instead of around it in the borders to try and prove your point.....yeah, i am sure, don't try and manipulate stiff with a drawn, i already used circle tools to show that they conect in the OP, you somehow not seeing it tells how much of said OP you read

And even, there is a void outside that area, the spatio-temporal separation exists, it’s not necessary to explain this…

1 it isn't a void, factually so, it has matter in it for pits sake

2 it being around 2 conecting spaces doesn't prove said conecting space are separate

Now stop to defend a scene that kills all 2-C arguments completely, that doesn't seem to align with what you believe

At that time Goku and co were between the space of u7 and u6 so obviously they aren't touching not to mention the fact that the u6 vs u7 tournament took place on a nameless planet which is in between space of u6 and u7

Space in between can equally be between the physical borders, aka where the space of both universes touch ad connect, this doesn't disprove the scenes contradictions to spatial separation

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I also find myself agreeing with the opposition. And iirc, Luffy had other plans to point out but was put on hold since there are too many DB related threads open.

But others already pointed it out that "Existing next to each other" is not proof if it all just being one big body of space and spatio-temporal barriers are painfully blatant in against it not all being a single body of space. And the only reason Whis is able to travel is because Angels literally have a Warp ability added to their Ki flight that allows them to cross barriers; so them being able to travel from point A to point B has 0 counter evidence against the spatial boundaries.

Could you tag, please @Elizhaa ,@LordGriffin1000, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Dereck03, @Qawsedf234, @Firestorm808, @ActuallySpaceMan42

It got to the point where this became endless comments and everything that was discussed and refuted in other threads

 

[BOEGVELD]

No, the hermetically sealed part is in direct mention of the barrier after mentioning the afterlife and how it is beneath it.....it is in direct mention of the afterlife that it cited

No??? ''The Universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier ...'' The part regarding the barrier is referring to the universe, not the World Beyond. It's stating the Universe is sealed by this barrier, not that this barrier is separating the Universe/Living World from the World Beyond.

No, being transcendental dimensionally can ONLY mean QS, if that meaning is contradicted, which it is, then the statement doesn't hold weight as the one thing it is implying isn't hold truth

''Transcend'' and ''transcendental'' have more than one definition, so no, it can not ONLY mean being QS. Other definitions include ''be or go beyond the range or limits of'' and ''relating to a spiritual realm''.

"Other side" implies that it is inside, other dimensions aren't connected physically for "sides" to matter

Side means ''a position to the left or right of an object, place, or central point'', ''next to each other'' and ''a place next to something''. It does not mean or imply to be inside of something. It seems like you're trying to make it a weird statement, rather than it actually being one.

 

[Killerdrone123]

No, the hermetically sealed part is in direct mention of the barrier after mentioning the afterlife and how it is beneath it.....it is in direct mention of the afterlife that it cited


No, being transcendental dimensionally can ONLY mean QS, if that meaning is contradicted, which it is, then the statement doesn't hold weight as the one thing it is implying isn't hold truth


"Other side" implies that it is inside, other dimensions aren't connected physically for "sides" to matter


Not really, i still say that the Dbs anime contradicts it, the last thread was about size, so of course i wouldn't bring up the space time contradictions i had with it

Plus you do know you are defending the oposite map that you did last thread, right?


No i didn't accepted that verbatim at all, i am still using the description of the realms themselves and not the map

Besides you do realize that i have other scans and evidence other than the 3 scans you guys have been talking right? Wonder why you guys are ignoring them


Yes........it is verbatim said to exist


No, but i do have proof that spatially speaking the afterlife is closer to the livinf wolrd than other points in the living world, which are just as damming evidence


This honestly doesn't matter as i didn't used it ever, if you guys could so kindly stop lying about the arguments i used it would be ever so lovely


It was accepted then, which doesn't for this thread trying to change it, i present other arguments, staff agreed this time with them, won't discuss this further as changing what was previously accepted is the entire point of a CRT


directly said to not be the case


It isn't a void, it has stars and matter in it.....that isn't a good point


considering that you needed to draw the line over the universe, inside of it, instead of around it in the borders to try and prove your point.....yeah, i am sure, don't try and manipulate stiff with a drawn, i already used circle tools to show that they conect in the OP, you somehow not seeing it tells how much of said OP you read


1 it isn't a void, factually so, it has matter in it for pits sake

2 it being around 2 conecting spaces doesn't prove said conecting space are separate

Now stop to defend a scene that kills all 2-C arguments completely, that doesn't seem to align with what you believe


Space in between can equally be between the physical borders, aka where the space of both universes touch ad connect, this doesn't disprove the scenes contradictions to spatial separation

Brother there is no physical boundaries visible touching when they were between them also omega tell me what does space between the universes means

 

[LordDestroit10K]

stop

So in a public thread, where everyone can present arguments and counter-arguments, do you suggest that I leave my position? Well, alea iacta est, that the threads moderators and administrators decide, I'm tired of going in circles when you don't accept any argument against.

lying

And now you call me and others liars, I don't know if any administrator or thread moderator could comment on this type of insulting behavior against us.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

If we are calling more admins, Can we get a summery from both sides?

And in this summery can we get a neutral opinion of the arguments.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Could you tag, please @Elizhaa ,@LordGriffin1000, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Dereck03, @Qawsedf234, @Firestorm808, @ActuallySpaceMan42

It got to the point where this became endless comments and everything that was discussed and refuted in other threads

@Elizhaa ,@LordGriffin1000, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Dereck03, @Qawsedf234, @Firestorm808, @ActuallySpaceMan42

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

@Elizhaa ,@LordGriffin1000, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Dereck03, @Qawsedf234, @Firestorm808, @ActuallySpaceMan42

Thank you very much

 

[Chariot190]

tell me what does space between the universes means

The red part id assume

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Whatever makes you sleep at night. Fortunately I can see the gap in between the bubbles.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Relax

Yeah, I know I know. You're right,I shouldn't lose my composure like that. My bad.

 

[Chariot190]

Whatever makes you sleep at night. Fortunately I can see the gap in between the bubbles.

Oh? Then if you may, please draw a curved line along the bubbles without it overlapping at any point

 

[ChoursDropoff]

1 it isn't a void, factually so, it has matter in it for pits sake

You know just because there’s a bit of matter in a void does not make it a void. Like the world of void for example that has an arena and nothing else.

2 it being around 2 conecting spaces doesn't prove said conecting space are separate

It literally would though if there’s a void separating them then it’s not connected at all.

Now stop to defend a scene that kills all 2-C arguments completely, that doesn't seem to align with what you believe

Stop arguing in opposition with your point in a public forum for a scene you’re misunderstanding?

 

[Chariot190]

You know just because there’s a bit of matter in a void does not make it a void. Like the world of void for example that has an arena and nothing else.

That, actually doesn't make it a void by definition, a void by definition is completely empty.

Grand Priest made the arena, it was a void before he worked.

It literally would though if there’s a void separating them then it’s not connected at all.

Why cant there be a void around them, and in the empty space between them, but also for them to overlap at the edge?
Both can be true, it's not evidence for, or against.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Oh? Then if you may, please draw a curved line along the bubbles without it overlapping a

Kinda hard if you think the light is part of the bubble when it clearly ain't. Them overlapping (in the sense of touching, aside that overlapping doesn't even necessarily mean they're touching physically) implies that and makes 0 sense.

If they blend into one another they're connected anyway,so you can't argue that if you disagree with them being connected. Pick your poison man.

What do I have to do, ask an AI to calculate if they're separate or not? I could bring anything on the table and you'd still dismiss it. But sure, I may just do that if that's what you want.

 

[Chariot190]

Kinda hard if you think the light is part of the bubble when it clearly ain't. Them overlapping (in the sense of touching, aside that overlapping doesn't even necessarily mean they're touching physically) implies that and makes 0 sense.

Dog, right above the light, is about 100pxs of space, where neither border is apparent, and appears to be overlapping. If you were to treat both as perfect spheres and lne the edges up as a sphere, they would overlap, just a lil, like it aint much, but it is there.

If they blend into one another they're connected anyway,

That's what I'm saying, they do blend together around upper middle.

so you can't argue that if you disagree with them being connected. Pick your poison man.

You misunderstand, I think it's just a shitty angle tbh, but what I am saying is that "there's a space between them" isnt a good argument against, and whatever the hell the curved lines posted awhile back was, not exactly good.

What do I have to do, ask an AI to calculate if they're separate or not? I could bring anything on the table and you'd still dismiss it. But sure, I may just do that if that's what you want.

I literally dont know what youre talking about man, why ya overcomplicating it?

 

[Omegabronic]

No??? ''The Universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier ...'' The part regarding the barrier is referring to the universe, not the World Beyond. It's stating the Universe is sealed by this barrier, not that this barrier is separating the Universe/Living World from the World Beyond.

it is saying that the barrier is what seals the living world from the world beyond, hence why it talks about it immediately before talking about the barrier and its sealing

''Transcend'' and ''transcendental'' have more than one definition, so no, it can not ONLY mean being QS. Other definitions include ''be or go beyond the range or limits of'' and ''relating to a spiritual realm''.

alone not, but "Dimensionaly transcendental" can only mean QS

Side means ''a position to the left or right of an object, place, or central point'', ''next to each other'' and ''a place next to something''. It does not mean or imply to be inside of something. It seems like you're trying to make it a weird statement, rather than it actually being one.

huh, well, i guess for the Demon Realm it could mean dimension, not that it matter for the other realms tho, also doesn't really prove space time separation

Brother there is no physical boundaries visible touching when they were between them

also omega tell me what does space between the universes means

you assume that a singular planet and a couple dozen of galaxies would be enough to see it, regardless, the neutral space can easily be where the the actual space outside of the universes are, since the light isn't coming from where they connect in the scene, which again is why i say that it was retconned later in the OP

So in a public thread, where everyone can present arguments and counter-arguments, do you suggest that I leave my position? Well, alea iacta est, that the threads moderators and administrators decide, I'm tired of going in circles when you don't accept any argument against.

i mean........you are of the side that is trying to keep the 2-C ratings, so using a scene that directly goes against it doesn't make much sense

And now you call me and others liars, I don't know if any administrator or thread moderator could comment on this type of insulting behavior against us.

i mean............you guys are saying i am using an argument that i am not, and that i said i am not multiple here already, what else can i call that but a lie? i will tone it down and stop now tho, don't want things to get actually heated afterall

You know just because there’s a bit of matter in a void does not make it a void. Like the world of void for example that has an arena and nothing else.

if by void you mean a space time void that would make a space time separation a thing......then yeah, actually having matter, thus space, in it naturally makes it not a void that would matter for this discussion also where is the assumption that it is a void even comes from?

It literally would though if there’s a void separating them then it’s not connected at all.

first of all, statement for said void, second of all, the scene shows no gaps or space between them at all, thus being contradictory, hence the 2.3 point in the OP

Stop arguing in opposition with your point in a public forum for a scene you’re misunderstanding?

in suggest trying to somehow shift a scene that clearly shows something against what one is arguing in the end, specially when the arguments for it are now repeating themselves over and over again

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

"to cut words or designs on wood, stone, metal, etc."

engrave verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of engrave verb in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

i have linked the meaning of the word in the OP, Engraved does mean to cut something in a 3D material to make a design or word in it


which claim? that "engrave" means "to cut words or designs on physical materials"? because the basis is the very meaning of the word.......it is even linked there in the OP


but didn't about the fact that the argument is how the descriptions for the Kaioshin realm and the Afterlife clearly say something that can't be a dimensional barrier as what separates them from the Living World, that is what you didn't answered


read above, the whole point is that we don't


i am not, you are, you are ignoring how the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm are said to be separated, which is completely different from the Barriers showed in the Gotenks and Super Buu scene


my evidence does showcase that, specially since the barrier separating the ROSAT doesn't have a design nor it is physical, it is invisible and damage to it regenerates after a while as seen with Super Buu, which also goes against the engraved description the one from the Afterlife has, it can't be the same barrier, they are fundamentally different in their very description


between the macrocoms? you mean Neutral space? cause that is very different

also no, show me in the scan where it says it exists "between them" every time i ask you to show, you keep saying "it says that" instead of showing me where it says that......that doesn't lead anywhere for you


you do realize i am using the other part of the scan that doesn't specify that, right?


my dude, Ex translated the text, his interpretation over the translated text when we also have the meaning of the words is not higher than anyone else's when we already know what the text's words are saying

you saying that "he said he thinks it means this" is useless when i can just read the text to see that it doesn't say nor implies that at all, of course, if you have a part of the text that says that it is in between the realms of the macrocosm would be another story......you would need to show it tho


considering how your initial response didn't covered the arguments as to why the barrier of the afterlife is a physical one, the Moon comparison of the Kaioshin realm and the crystal barrier it has and Beerus saying that the afterlife is not very far from Earth.........yeah


1 it talking about figure 1 doesn't make it magically mean that it is between the realms showed that, no idea how one can even begin to think it does

2 you seen to not realize me using the scan that DOESN'T talk about Figure 1, making this counter argument not relevant when is, again, only covering 1 scan and statement i am using instead of all of them


and none of the realms in the macrocosm are said to be other dimensions..........got the point yet?


if it is physically connected then it isn't another dimension, if it isn't another dimension, then it can't be what the Subspace scan is refering to, if it is physically connected, Subspace can't be in between them, making the supposed scan about it being between them which you didn't showed yet contradictory as the Afterlife would be part of the realms that Subspace is supposedly said to be in between of


you didn't tho, you.....legit didn't showed me anything that would even suggest that they are the same barrier......like, at all


and i explained why Engraved does mean that it is a physical 3D wall, and how that alone makes it very different from the one showed in the ROSAT example and the DBS:Broly fight


it is literally what "engraved" means.......design is also used alongside it, which is also re enforcing its actual meaning is what is being used


it does, you know what i used to say it does, you saying it doesn't again without adding doesn't contribute to the debate


not really when you didn't prove that both are the same barrier


i am not saying that the one in the Broly and Gotenks case are physical, i am saying the Barrier in the afterlife is physical.......as "engraved with a peculiar design" would very blatantly mean


and why does this matter for the point? i swear if you say anything about me using "he flew there" as a contradiction to them being space times when i said 10 times already that i didn't used said argument i will blow a fuse inside my head


........what doesn't work? the fact that the Afterlife is closer to Earth than another point in the same space as Earth? how does what you say makes that not work?


.......this really doesn't answer my point


which i ask again, what proof is there in the scans that say that? which part of the scans are you using to get the implication


equally explained why it does means to cut something since that is both the literal meaning of the word + what the rest of the description is saying as well


no.......that last part isn't said, as for the "it is saying that it isn't in any of the worlds":

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world"

i don't think i need to explain why the spaces between the parts of the Macrocosm would still be part of the macrocosm, right? yet the Subspace is said to not be part of the world/macrocosm in general


you have been telling me, but you didn't showed me in the scan where such thing is said, already talked about Ex's translation and his opinions on them, no need to do it again


show me where IN the scans, and not the scans themselves, i am already them for proof of it not being part of the world


in which they are stranded in a 5th axis/direction and not in any of the other 3D directions.......that is the point


aka you are saying that they are divided by something that doesn't have any directions at all to say that they in a "down" direction compared to one another..........see the problem?


do you even understand what the point is? i am confused on what you think it is at this point


oh ok


they do tho.....the latter words make it clear which definition of "engraved" is being used


the latter 2 you didn't proved are even remotely connected to the Afterlife one at all, so they don't help much


ignored the other scan that doesn't include Figure 1, the latter part is not said.........i am tired of having to repeat myself when you repeat yourself


read above, that isn't since being between the realms is not said..........again, repeating again, this is getting tiring


he said his opinion about the translation, how does that is above the actual text saying otherwise completely is truly beyond me


they aren't, one is called "dimensional barrier" the other is called "barrier" just because both are barriers, it doesn't mean both are the same


no they aren't, the Afterlife one is never called that at all, its description is even completely different from what we saw of the actual dimensional barriers


when have i used the fact that they are called different worlds as proof of them not being space times? your answer here doesn't even correlate to what you are answering to, nor does it cover the actual point in the OP i said you didn't covered

btw, the Kaioshin realm is verbatim said to be outside


the statement is "you need teleportation to get in" there is no "normally" or anything like that, the fact that one can enter with anything outside of teleportation makes the statement get retconned regardless, if you say the same thing again about this, then ig we can agree to disagree as it is going nowhere


as i said, nothing indicates that the ones we saw separate the rest of the realms in the macrocosm, you saying we got more info on them in general doesn't answer what i said in the response you are responding


........you legit said the same thing as one message above........ok


........when have i said as such? regardless, point is that it isn't teleportation, that is all that matters for the point


???????? my dude, are you ok? this doesn't correlate to the point i said, what are you doing? how does both being called worlds matter for me saying that the parts in between parts of the same structure are still part of said structure?


i am using EXACTLY what the translation says


the opinion he gives about the translation, which i disagree with and showed evidence from said translation that goes against his conclusion after reading it


..........again, that doesn't correlate to what i said at all as i never said it isn't between dimensions, but simply not between the realms of the macrocosm, as that is the part that is never said


.........yeah, that is what i said


why are you saying the same stuff in sequence? regardless, the other text/translation of the other part makes it clear that it isn't as it isn't part of the world at all, and that still doesn't answer the fact that it never says that it is in between the realms like Afterlife and Living World, you again didn't showed me where it says that, if you show the "between dimensions" when you know that i am arguing they aren't dimensions then.......oh boy will we be for a longer ride than i expected


and you are ignoring the other scan i am using that doesn't talk about "figure 1" at all........so


................that is part of the point yes.......so what?


the affirmation "the afterlife barrier is the same as these other ones" without any evidence for such is the empty words i am talking about


ok

Instead of responding to each individual point. I’m gonna try and merge these categorically, so we don’t keep this long back and forth on random points.

1.

"to cut words or designs on wood, stone, metal, etc."

engrave verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of engrave verb in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

i have linked the meaning of the word in the OP, Engraved does mean to cut something in a 3D material to make a design or word in it


which claim? that "engrave" means "to cut words or designs on physical materials"? because the basis is the very meaning of the word.......it is even linked there in the OP


but didn't about the fact that the argument is how the descriptions for the Kaioshin realm and the Afterlife clearly say something that can't be a dimensional barrier as what separates them from the Living World, that is what you didn't answered


read above, the whole point is that we don't


i am not, you are, you are ignoring how the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm are said to be separated, which is completely different from the Barriers showed in the Gotenks and Super Buu scene


my evidence does showcase that, specially since the barrier separating the ROSAT doesn't have a design nor it is physical, it is invisible and damage to it regenerates after a while as seen with Super Buu, which also goes against the engraved description the one from the Afterlife has, it can't be the same barrier, they are fundamentally different in their very description and i explained why Engraved does mean that it is a physical 3D wall, and how that alone makes it very different from the one showed in the ROSAT example and the DBS:Broly fight considering how your initial response didn't covered the arguments as to why the barrier of the afterlife is a physical one, the Moon comparison of the Kaioshin realm and the crystal barrier it has and Beerus saying that the afterlife is not very far from Earth.........yeah

it is literally what "engraved" means.......design is also used alongside it, which is also re enforcing its actual meaning is what is being used i am not saying that the one in the Broly and Gotenks case are physical, i am saying the Barrier in the afterlife is physical.......as "engraved with a peculiar design" would very blatantly mean equally explained why it does means to cut something since that is both the literal meaning of the word + what the rest of the description is saying as well they do tho.....the latter words make it clear which definition of "engraved" is being used no they aren't, the Afterlife one is never called that at all, its description is even completely different from what we saw of the actual dimensional barriers the affirmation "the afterlife barrier is the same as these other ones" without any evidence for such is the empty words i am talking about

It looks like you’re arguing that since the term engrave is used it has to be a a physical 3D material. Sure, it tells us that it’s engraved with special marks, but this doesn’t really tell us much about its nature. Trying to semantically define the word engrave as a 3D material that’s being marked doesn’t really help prove it’s 3D. It’s like limiting the term cut to 3 dimensions too, when there’s plenty of verses where characters cut space-time even in the Goku Black arc. So this argument really has no basis. Especially when you couple in the fact that we get a direct statement of the nature of these dimensional barriers, and we see how they’re demonstrated. You’re asserting that it’s different from the one we see in the Z manga, but it’s called the same thing and is described similarly to it. Your reasoning for doing this is because you think the engrave portion proves it’s 3D, but it doesn’t explain the nature of its dimensionality. Things like this would explain its dimensionality status. As the dimensional barrier breaking down distorted space-time. Your argument that engrave means that it has to be referring to 3D material, so it contradicts it being the same dimensional barrier as the one that happens during the RoSaT with Gotenks is flawed for that reason. Because there’s simply no contradiction. Also, you’re attempting to use the point that it wouldn’t take them that long to reach the earth from King Kai’s planet, when you’ve acknowledged that Whis can travel to other dimensions and space-times. So, that point doesn’t prove it’s a 3D barrier either. Also, the living world actually has dimensions of its own. The whole argument of it not being a dimensional barrier that we see in Z and Broly falls apart with this. Your argument is based off the presupposition that what the guide and the manga say about its nature contradict each other. Either way, I can prove they separate dimensions with scans anyway. The Living World consists of 2 dimensions. It consists of the Demon Realm and “The Universe” in this scan it’s stated that the Demon Realm is another dimension. That means the Living World are dimensions that are separate from the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm. Which shows that your presupposition of them being one connected alternate dimension is false. So there is no contradiction and it’s stated to be dimensions. Raw

also no, show me in the scan where it says it exists "between them" every time i ask you to show, you keep saying "it says that" instead of showing me where it says that......that doesn't lead anywhere for you


you do realize i am using the other part of the scan that doesn't specify that, right?


my dude, Ex translated the text, his interpretation over the translated text when we also have the meaning of the words is not higher than anyone else's when we already know what the text's words are saying

you saying that "he said he thinks it means this" is useless when i can just read the text to see that it doesn't say nor implies that at all, of course, if you have a part of the text that says that it is in between the realms of the macrocosm would be another story......you would need to show it tho





1 it talking about figure 1 doesn't make it magically mean that it is between the realms showed that, no idea how one can even begin to think it does

2 you seen to not realize me using the scan that DOESN'T talk about Figure 1, making this counter argument not relevant when is, again, only covering 1 scan and statement i am using instead of all of them


and none of the realms in the macrocosm are said to be other dimensions..........got the point yet?


if it is physically connected then it isn't another dimension, if it isn't another dimension, then it can't be what the Subspace scan is refering to, if it is physically connected, Subspace can't be in between them, making the supposed scan about it being between them which you didn't showed yet contradictory as the Afterlife would be part of the realms that Subspace is supposedly said to be in between of




it does, you know what i used to say it does, you saying it doesn't again without adding doesn't contribute to the debate










which i ask again, what proof is there in the scans that say that? which part of the scans are you using to get the implication





no.......that last part isn't said, as for the "it is saying that it isn't in any of the worlds":

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world"

i don't think i need to explain why the spaces between the parts of the Macrocosm would still be part of the macrocosm, right? yet the Subspace is said to not be part of the world/macrocosm in general


you have been telling me, but you didn't showed me in the scan where such thing is said, already talked about Ex's translation and his opinions on them, no need to do it again


show me where IN the scans, and not the scans themselves, i am already them for proof of it not being part of the world




ignored the other scan that doesn't include Figure 1, the latter part is not said.........i am tired of having to repeat myself when you repeat yourself


read above, that isn't since being between the realms is not said..........again, repeating again, this is getting tiring


he said his opinion about the translation, how does that is above the actual text saying otherwise completely is truly beyond me





when have i used the fact that they are called different worlds as proof of them not being space times? your answer here doesn't even correlate to what you are answering to, nor does it cover the actual point in the OP i said you didn't covered




as i said, nothing indicates that the ones we saw separate the rest of the realms in the macrocosm, you saying we got more info on them in general doesn't answer what i said in the response you are responding





........when have i said as such? regardless, point is that it isn't teleportation, that is all that matters for the point


???????? my dude, are you ok? this doesn't correlate to the point i said, what are you doing? how does both being called worlds matter for me saying that the parts in between parts of the same structure are still part of said structure?


i am using EXACTLY what the translation says


the opinion he gives about the translation, which i disagree with and showed evidence from said translation that goes against his conclusion after reading it


..........again, that doesn't correlate to what i said at all as i never said it isn't between dimensions, but simply not between the realms of the macrocosm, as that is the part that is never said


.........yeah, that is what i said


why are you saying the same stuff in sequence? regardless, the other text/translation of the other part makes it clear that it isn't as it isn't part of the world at all, and that still doesn't answer the fact that it never says that it is in between the realms like Afterlife and Living World, you again didn't showed me where it says that, if you show the "between dimensions" when you know that i am arguing they aren't dimensions then.......oh boy will we be for a longer ride than i expected


and you are ignoring the other scan i am using that doesn't talk about "figure 1" at all........so


................that is part of the point yes.......so what?

Regarding the Subspace, it talks about how the subspace does not belong to any of the world. Then, it explains to us that it is detached from every area. This is reference to figure [1], then it tells us that it’s between dimensions in that same context. It’s adding onto what’s already given to us. I mentioned a Japanese speaker who gave us context on this scan, but you said it’s merely an opinion. Since you must know how interpret Japanese better. Either way, the context is quite clear even in the English it’s telling us the subspace’s relation to [figure 1] and finishes it off by telling us it’s between dimensions. If it existed in the world, then it would it be in one of those worlds depicted in [figure 1], but it’s telling us that it doesn’t belong to any of the world and that it’s detached from the area, and exists between dimensions. One of your arguments against this was that there was no dimensions in the macrocosm to begin with, but I’ve already addressed that unsubstantiated claim above.

Scan AE



I’ve also seen the Elder Kai point being used, but the context is Goku tells Elder Kai that he can no longer sense Buu anymore. Elder Kai tells him he entered a world with a different dimension of time. He never explicitly says the reason you can’t sense him because he’s entered a different dimension. He mentions what it was and asks Goku if that sounds familiar and he mentions the RoSaT. Elder Kai never even mentions that the RoSaT was an alternate dimension, just that it had a different time dimension. Scan Although, I’m not denying it is I’m just mentioning that it’s never said he can’t sense for that reason. In the Cell Saga we get an explanation that the way the door seals off the rest of the world it makes ki sensing unavailable, so Goku pieced this out from the fact that he couldn’t sense ki and what Elder Kai said about it.

Cell saga:
部屋の扉を閉めてしまえば完全に外界の情報はシャットアウトされてしまうんだ

ほら　もうセルの気もベジータの気も感じねえだろ =
Once the door of the room is closed, we’re completely shut out of the outside world.

See? You don’t feel Cell’s Ki or Vegeta's Ki anymore.

So there’s nothing to do with it being an alternate dimension, considering the Living World itself is made up of dimensions as shown above.

Realm of the Kais:

Beyond Super Saiyan!
Super Saiyan 3's super power!

Goku transformed into Super Saiyan 3 through rigorous training in the Heavenly Realm. His incredible power, which shook the entire earth, even reached the next dimension, the Realm of the King of the World, surprising his friends! Although it took him a while to transform because he was still getting used to it, he showed that he was strong enough to fight Buu on an equal footing!

 

[Chariot190]

Elder Kai never even mentions that the RoSaT was an alternate dimension, just that it had a different time dimension.

Uh, bro? Ya realize that's not only the same thing, but has some nasty implications
also source your shit

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Uh, bro? Ya realize that's not only the same thing, but has some nasty implications
also source your shit

Goku is saying he can’t sense ki anymore and Elder Kai tells him that he went into a world with a different dimension of time. The 2 together made Goku realize that it was the RoSaT, since you can’t sense ki in the world. That’s not the same thing either way, but in context can be similar. I literally put the original reason why Goku states that Gohan can’t sense ki in the RoSaT in the Cell Games.
They’re from the guidebooks.