Wow, that's one way of saying nothing. By your logic Daizenshuu 4 references Daizenshuu 7 (the map references the description)...when Daizenshuu 4 came out before (???). I guess people working on it had retrocognition or something.
i didn't say one was mentioning the other, i said that the map logically had to be drawn based on the ideas Akira had for how the cosmology was structured, which we were given direct descriptions later on
It's simple logic, you can't work your way around it. Especially when the source of said description in Daizenshuu 7 is directly cited and specifically so,if I may. (Daizenshuu 4 page 72. Guess what, the map?).
i mean, it is pointing at realm they are talking about to represent which realm they are talking about...........i don't see how that invalidates the statements about the realms themselves, specially when said statements don't mention "in the map" in any part
1. That's not even touching, that's the two universes visually overlapping, which doesn't mean anything.
Put an object in front of another, and if you view from a certain angle you'll see the same effect. And guess what? There's no actual physical contact.
no? they are touching, connected, that is a clear giving the outline of both of them merging within each other rather than a circle being above one another
It's literally just PoV/perception shit. You expect something as big as two whole universes to be portrayed a long distance away in such a small space like a screen? Be real.
i mean, i have seen some distance being put between Universes in some depictions, i certainly don't expect them to be completely touching one another and their spaces leading into one another as the depiction of Super Shenron shows
2. Same visual who has the universes as two separate bubbles. Definitely sounds like the same space to me. Make it make sense, Omega.
that is the point......it doesn't show them as separate bubbles, but rather two interconnected bubbles physically leading into one another
And stop with the 'ignoring' and 'convenience' accusations considering you're using the same map you argued against in the previous thread. You're in no position to scold others. Think about what you're saying before writing.
which i have clarified i changed my instance in after hearing the points of the people here, but allas, ur right, i will stop talking about things not directed at the argument at hand
I never said the ideas were coming to him as he drew the map, but he made the map after he finished writing the manga. And btw the anime was already running before the manga ended. He added the kaioshin realm when he first introduced the map to be included in daizenshuu 4, and then the daizenshuu 7 described it, and some of those descriptions were from the map itself.
all this to say "he had ideas about how the cosmology was, he then drew a map to illustrate said ideas" how does that invalidate said ideas being said to us again?
more over, how does this disqualify the statements that are not even in the same page nor are depicting in the Map at all?(Subspace)
So statements about there being physical walls will strange designs and hermetically sealed or not literal, because like I said, he only designed it to so we can wrap our heads around it.
he design the universe in a simple way to be easy to understand.......but that is still how he designed the Universe nonetheless, that description is still how the universes function in verse, nothing really contradicts that, besides, those descriptions were where the "teleportation is the only way for one to reach the kaioshin realm" statement is, if you discard it, you are also kind of discarding the evidence you were using to prove it as an another dimension in the first place
There has never once been mention of a physical wall separating the kaioshin realm or afterlife from the living realm.
......yes there is.......it is quite literally there in the OP, you not
We know what separates everything are dimensional barriers.
no we don't, again, you didn't provided anything saying that what separates Afterlife and Kaioshin realm from the living world are dimensional barriers, specially the ones from the ROSAT which are very much stated to not be in the Universe at all
You keep saying that we haven't proved it, but you keep brushing everything off for no reason and using weird arguments.
......brushing what off? what weird arguments? clear cut, you didn't provided anything that even remotely suggests that the Afterlife or the Kaioshin realm are separated by some "space time dimensional walls" and you keep using the example of a dimension very clearly not inside the Macrocosm at all
You couldn't even give proof that physical travel between realms is possible.
i did give, again, in the OP
Omega, i'm telling you that it's not 100 percent literal
the map? yeah, the information given about the realms? no reason for it not to be, the ideas Akira had about how the cosmology is would be what he used to draw the map, these ideas being spoken to us directly later on doesn't magically make them invalid
, examples like the kaioshin realm being literally crystal, or the living realm being surrounded by a physical wall with designs on it, the wall we've never seen show up ANYWEHRE, not even mentioned in the series.
1 i am not using the map, but the description of the realms
2 not being seen =/= doesn't exist, we know it exists because it is directly told to us that it does, regarldless, you are ignoring the rest of the OP that doesn't rely on those 2 scans, so.......
You know what is mentioned? Dimensional barriers separating the living realm from the others
provide that statement, the only one you have is for a Dimension outside the Macrocosm separating it from the said Macrocosm, which as i said, doesn't prove that what separates the realms inside the macrocosm( which have no relation to the ROSAT and Subspace at all) are separated by the same dimensional barriers, or by dimensional barriers at all
like, dude, this is what? the 5th time i repeat this only for you to repeat the same phrase again? i don't see how you could see this as productive
, physical travel not being possible,
that isn't said at all, not without the very statements and descriptions you are trying to make invalid that is, you want the descriptions to be invalid? you also need to take that information that comes exclussively from them as not being valid as well, can't have your cake and eat it too
only being able to get to other realms via interdimensional travel, that's what.
that being the only way to reach them is also never said, we know that it can reach them, but that is like, kind of obvious regardless of spatial separation or not, so unless you have a statement saying that such things are a necessity to access them, you can't really affirm that they are
But it all doesn't matter to you apparently. You can not prove that all the realms are in the same body of space with a ******* wall separating them, you don't even have to be a dragon ball expert to know that's a lie.
i can prove that it is, i have done so in the OP with direct statements saying such and other statements and happenings from Super also implying closeness between them
What are you even talking about? The rosat is literally sitting between dimensions in the subspace, what do you think "between dimensions" means? It means that its sitting between the living realm, afterlife, and all the other dimensions
not really when, and i can't believe you keep ignoring this, the ROSAT alongside Subspace is said to not belong anywhere in the macrocosm at all, and what do i think that "between dimensions" mean? simple, that it is between dimensions, which the realms in the macrocosm are never said to be in the first place, thus it doesn't imply at all that they are between the realms of the macrocosm, but between dimensions instead, as that is what is said about them
how can a place said to not be anywhere inside a thing be what separates the parts of said thing? how does that make any sense at all?
, the subspace is an area between dimensions of the macrocosm.
show me literally anything saying that, more over, show me anything saying that the realms you are so hard to affirm are other dimensions actually are other dimensions
That's how buu and gotenks screamed their way back
they broke a dimensional wall to get back, this proves nothing on the position of the ROSAT or the ssaid dimensional wall at all
that's why interdimensional teleportation is needed , and special techniques like whis warp to get there
again, that is never said, the one thing saying something remotely similar is something you are arguing isn't valid
, theres, physical flight isn't possible.
again, nothing is ever said about this, and like above, the one thing you used to even say such you paradoxically also arguing that isn't valid
....................................................................................what are you even talking about? They describe the universe based on the macrocosm map sometimes, but there's other statements about dimensional barriers separating the realms like the rosat, and the subspace
the statements of the ROSAT and Subspace are NOT about the Realms as both of them are not PART OF THE MACROCOSM TO BEGIN WITH
also, no, the macrocosm map is purely the only way the macrocosm is ever depicted when talking about it in the guides
and kakarot statements that say the worlds are completely separate.
since when is Kakarot a guide? regardless, as i said, Kakarot is not as much priority as the actual manga and its guides, which say otherwise, so
What are you even trying to argue here? Just a big yap sesh.
that the description of the realms is......the description of the realms.........how did you not get that?
Toriyama himself portrays it differently, it was never meant to be hyper literal, just to give us an idea of what kind of realms make up the macrocosm
it was to give an idea of how it is structured
, it showed us what the afterlife looked like, snakeway, where heaven is
so what you are saying that it is accurately represents how all the aspects look like exept only 2 of them for some arbitraly reason?
regardless, i am using the statements about the realms and not the map as an argument, so i don't even know why are hyperfocusing on the map right now
but the living universe and kaioshin realm demonstrably do not have a wall with designs surrounding it,
if you could prove this when we are said otherwise i would agree
and the kaioshin realm isn't crystal.
......don't distort the point please, the Kaioshin realm is surrounded by a crystal barrier, the realm itself is not made of Crystal
Yeah and the scans that confirm the rosat is an area of subspace
which also confirm that it isn't part of the macrocosm at all, making it irrelevant to the discussion about the realms of the macrocosm
that all the realms are completely separated from each other, no mentions of physical walls
in what way are they described as "separated"? can you give the scan real quick?
, and it being impossible to travel to these realms without special methods remains true and consistent across all dragon ball mediums.
again, that part is not something you proved or showed any statement for yet, the one statement that could be used to say this is the one you are saying is invalid to use, therefore your point kind has no points to it
You are the on who's argument is 90 percent based off the non literal macrocosm map that toriyama uses. Ignoring evidence, showings, etc.
i am NOT arguing using the map, but using the description explaining how the realms function and are in according to one another
and no, i am ignoring nothing
And I already said it doesn't matter, I proved they aren't physically touching
no you didn't, you didn't showed anything even remotely suggesting this, at max you showed that another dimension and space outside of the macrocosm entirely is not touching the said macrocosm......which no duh, i am doing the same in the OP as a major point
, why do you think they were BETWEEN UNIVERSE 6 AND 7 AND WE WERE NEVER SHOWN THEM TOUCHING.
yes we are, we litterally are, that is also a point for that depiction to have been retconned, again, in the OP
Also by extremely easy to understand narrative implications, the universes CANT BE CONNECTED. They are portrayed to be separated, never once shown they are physically connected.
......yeah, that is the point of 2.3 in the OP......why are you arguing against something that i already agreed upon in the OP?
Also the neutral space is the space that holds dimensions, because its 5th axis which we have literally been over.
it isn't in the Super Shenron scene you guys used as evidence, again, that is the point in 2.3
We we're arguing for the afterlife to be the top half of the macrocosm iirc, that it was clearly portrayed to be as big as the universe, along with the cosmos scan etc. We never argued its 100 percent literal or snakeway would be half the size of the universe, but it's clearly not. And there are some things accurate about it, such as where heaven is located, and some other things.
and given the statements about the realms, the other things would be as well
regardless as i said, i am not even using the map, so that is not a good argument against me when i am not using it
You say you're using direct statements about the realms, but ignore when there's statements about the living realm being a spacetime
literally when is that said?
how many times do i have to repeat this? DIMENSIONAL WALLS OF THE ROSAT, WHICH IS VERY HARDLY SAID TO NOT EVEN BE IN THE MACROCOSM IN THE FIRST PLACE, DO NOT SERVE AS PROOF THAT THE LIVING WORLD HAS DIMENSIONAL BARRIERS SEPARATING IT FROM THE OTHER REALMS LIKE THE AFTERLIFE
all this shows is that a dimensional outside of the macrocosm has things separating it from the said macrocosm......which again, do not prove anything for the stuff inside the macrocosm
Not at all, basically your whole crt is based on the description of the macrocosm diagram when it's not to be taken literally
nope, the 2 initial points are based around the actual statements about the realms, not around the Macrocosm map
, with that out of the equation, your ENTIRE argument falls apart, you couldn't prove that you can physically get to the other realms,
how does that could possibly affect the points about what is said in Super? or the Subspace scans? you don't seen to actually know what the OP is arguing fully if you truly believe the 2 initial points are all there is of it
you admit that whis and teleportation uses interdimensional travel and that it's the only way to get to separate realms
ok now you are straight up lying, i NEER ADMITED SUCH A THING, don't lie about what i admited or not, that's rude
, and that its the only way actually shown and said to be impossible without it
, even by goku in the manga.
still waiting for that scan btw
Yes they literally have, you just won't take a close look at the evidence.
no there isn't, i took a close look, hence why i can assert for certain that there isn't
The depiction in the dbs anime, you argued if we use that it can't be 2-C, which I explained was extremely wrong.
i see......well, your only argument against why it makes 2-C impossible is that they aren't touching.......which, no, they clearly are, all the rest is you presenting evidence outside the scene, in which the point is the scene being contradictory, so you using pieces of evidence that do not relate to the fact that the universes are physically touching do not disprove that they are in that scene
No the contradictions don't exist, and they aren't physically touching each other, if they were, how were they between the universes that are separated by a dimension?
not stated to be separated by a dimension in the Anime iirc, also one doesn't stop the other now, does it?
What you're doing is nitpicking the anime frame by frame to try and find a picture where they look really close to each other in a zoomed out shot VERY far away to try and prove it.
i am not nickpicking, i am explaining how that entire scene contradicts material later on, making it non reliable for any use
Which is disingenuous, we are shown they aren't connected.
we are never SHOW they aren't connected, the one visuals shows them connected, other happening later on disprove the entire scene tho
Too bad they aren't physically touching.
too bad that they are, factually so
Who cares if this is the manga? Toriyama is literally the one that game them the outline for the episode and what he wanted it to be like, he then implemented this in his manga that was behind the anime, and it literally functions the same, all thats different is we dont get the zoomed out shot of the universes, thats IT.
the manga uses the Macrocosm map to depict the universes, the anime doesn't, the manga and the anime already diverged in both history, number of timelines, and Ki usage, they are both based around Akira's notes, but they aren't 100% 1 to 1 with one another
Its called a neutral dimension, there is literally no difference.
show scan please, only remember it being called "space"
Omega your arguments are getting very barebone now and you're saying a lot of nothing. The point is that zoomed out shot doesn't show us how much distance is between the universes, we never even SEE the universes anywhere NEAR each other from the perspective of in between the universes
we do see them literally touching, therefore in that scene the neutral space would be where they touch, in which we obviously wouldn't see the individual universes
, to the point where SS can expand across millions of galaxies and stars in the background, and we didn't see the universes at all
that is a lie, there is only about 20 or so, he is not millions of galaxies big at all
that means they clearly are not separated, and you have to nitpick a frame to try and prove they are. Like I can't make you understand if you refuse to be logical.
just as i can't make you understand something literally shown if you refuse to even remotely accept it as truth, aka, the feeling mutual pal
Also again, that literally doesn't prove shit, they are literally in a space that holds the universes
....."holds the universes"? can you......show evidence of such bizarre statement? the max we were said is that it is a space between them, nothing more
, and SS energy produced a light that can traverse those distances and interact with the universe because they are sitting on a literal higher dimension, what does it matter?
you do know that the entire argument is that they are purely in the space where the Universes connect right? aka "between them", and that is what the entire scene contradictory, right?
I cant if you ignore all evidence
i can't when i am not doing that, all the proofs you showed were things that do not prove what you are saying they do, simple as that
Omega, the statements about the realms in some cases were based of THE MAP THAT TORIYAMA DREW!!!
..........they were statements showing the ideas Tori had about how the universe functions, hence why it also talks about stuff that isn't design, like their functions, society inside, etc
HERMETALLCLY SEALED WALLS???? STRANGE DESINGS? OMEGA ITS DESCRIBING THE LITERAL MAP THATS SUPPOSED TO BE TAKEN NON LITERALLY!!
no, it is describing the ideas of how these realms function and are, it using the map to represent easily each they are talking about does not invalidate them
Also omega did you forget the map was drawn AFTER the manga ended, with the anime only 6 months behind? Literally means toriyama probably didn't even have that idea implemented about how he wanted to draw the map artistically, which is all it is, an artistic visualization.
the Map had to be based around the idea Tori had about how the macrocosm functions, the map is shape by the ideas he had, not the opposite, him conceptualizing comes first from the thing he draws representing said conceptualization, not the opposite
