Spaces in Times Dragon Ball revision

[LordDestroit10K]

n" Engraved meaning to cut something in a material physically, aka the barrier separating them has to be physical to be able to be "engraved" upon

That doesn’t imply that there is no spatio-temporal separation. In the universe standards of this wiki it is explained that a wall can still serve as a separation, as long as it is not contradicted with three-dimensional travel between the realms, since the latter would mean that there is no spatio-temporal separation.

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

But in Dragon Ball there was never a regular travel between Afterlife and the Living World, so this doesn’t mean that they are physically connected (Not to mention that the barrier that surrounds the Living World is dimensional, as seen when Super Buu left ROSAT).

"But that barrier separates ROSAT and the Living World, you can't prove that it's the same for Afterlife"

Well since ROSAT is a subspace that is located between the realms of the universe, if to access the Living World from there you have to create a dimensional hole like Super Buu or Gotenks, that implies that the walls that surround the Living World are dimensional.

Supporting this, DBS Broly light novel explains that the energy of Gogeta and Broly collapsed the dimensional boundaries of the universe, implying that the Living World is surrounded by a dimensional barrier, which can only be overcome by spatio-temporal attacks, as Gogeta and Broly did or as Super Buu did. (I would say that Buuhan also did it but this is not about Toei lol)

The fact that subspace is a place between dimensions implies that there is a void between the realms of the macrocosm, which inherently implies a space-temporal separation as explained by Ultima.

And well, Whis' travels don’t contradict anything, since this is a dimensional travel (logically, since Whis uses warp to travel to other universes and Zeno’s palace, unless you want to imply that these are physically connected to universe 7) and the mention that "only instant transmission can reach the Kaioshin realm" was made long before the appearance of Whis, exactly almost 20 years earlier, in Daizenshuu 7.

So with that, universe 7 would remain as 2-C, since as demonstrated in the previous thread, the Afterlife has a universal size and the Living World as well. So I disagree with the thread (logically).

 

[Stefano4444]

Disagree FRA for LordDestroit10K and RedReaper616's reasons.

Especially with using Angel's Warp since that technique can already be used to travel to other fully separated universes, so it can't work as argument agains 2-C U7.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yep disagree with this thread for @TheGodOfICE777 and @LordDestroit10K reasons

Agree with not using the anime model though

 

[LordDestroit10K]

Subspace ever says that it is between the dimensions "of the macrocosm" only that it is vaguely "between dimensions", no specification if it is between the ones in the macrocosm or no

If it's not among the dimensions of the macrocosm, where else is it? Because the manga didn’t show other dimensions than those of the macrocosm, so I see this argument as too vague.

world("world" used to describe the macrocosm in this context) s

Error, it refers to the fact that it doesn’t belong to any of the worlds of the macrocosm, not to the macrocosm itself. Below I will provide the official translation made by Planeta Cómic about Chozenshuu 4:

“SUBSPACE

Interdimensional places that don’t belong to any of the worlds.

• Sugoroku Game Room
• Room of Spirit and Time”

 

[Chariot190]

Universe 7 =/= The Universe
The Universe = Living World (Based on our universe, size of the universe, all mortals live there)
Universe 7 = The Macrocosm (Living Universe, Afterlife, Kaioshin Realm, etc)
As far as I am aware Freeza never states he was outside of the 'macrocosm'. Just the 'universe'. Which can mean anything from outside of the macrocosm or simply outside of the living world. One would mean the ROSAT is still part of the macrocosm, the other would mean it is not.

Surely you see how ironic it is that you just went off saying how Universe =/= Mortal World, only to 180 and go "well damn freeza just meant the LIVING world when the manga hammered in how the ROSAT Isnt a part of the universe".
Why the mental gymnastics?

No shit he didnt state he was "outside" the macrocosm, literally not one person in any DBZ media uses that word or words stuff like that (gee wonder why).

Gran wished to be the strongest in the universe, the universe, as defined by that very manga, is the living world, other world, and kai world, which you literally just attested to.


This is Gran's wish (and Gas' too but you get the point).
"I wish to be the strongest in the universe".
The only caveat is no Gods.

Gran doesn't say "I wish to be the strongest in the living world", the dragon doesnt go "k but only mortal realm ok?", they just say universe, and as we know, the universe, is all that shit. And if it ain't, well kinda shooting yourself in the foot lad.



"In all the universe".

They pretty evidently aren't arbitrarily limiting themselves to a fraction of the actual universe.


They say universe, every narrative throughline implies the whole thing. Like damn sure wouldve sucked if Goku and Vegeta were in other world amiright?

You said something along the lines of "Otherworld counting in the wish" but as far as I recall that...was never stated. Ever. The wish counted everyone in the universe but the gods. Because Granolah and Gas couldn't surpass them. The only gods we know of in U7 at that level are Beerus and Whis. And Beerus' Planet exists inside of the living world, not any other realm. Because right now all I can seem to find or remember is the exemption of 'gods' in the wish. And as I said, that would only mean Beerus and Whis as they are the only two deities stronger than Granolah after his wish in all of U7 and they live in the living world.

Why even specify gods? 99% of them are in other world or kai realm?

But hey, adding on to the above.


Just for clarity, here's Freeza explaining that the ROSAT isn't apart of Uni 7.

And why is it Uni 7?
Easy.



Every time Goku, Vegeta, Whis, etc yap about the strongest in the universe, they mean all of Uni 7.
The WHOLE arc's premise is based on this.
Hell the IMMEDIATE thing after this page, is this


Focusing on the fact Gran made his wish (I like how bro says "the whole universe" as if the intent behind the wish wasn't obvious).

Yeah nah dude. ROSAT isn't apart of Universe 7, the wish was the strongest in the whole universe as mentioned by multiple dudes. The universe, as defined by literally everything, and the context, thanks to the frish, is Uni 7, not the mortal realm.

But, this is all pointless anyway, ignoring the fact this is just being obtuse, like come on man be real
It's on you to prove "the universe/all of the universe/the whole universe", is arbitrarily talking about just the mortal realm and not, well the universe as it's been defined for like the past decade, by characters who know full well what the uni entails such as Goku, Vegeta, Frieza (remember, he's been to other world), Whis, and the funny Namekian dude, the nigh-omniscient dragon (the very fact it made note of gods and what not shows it's completely aware), etc?

Agree with not using the anime model though

It ISN'T a model, why can't any of you understand that?

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah pretty sure Frieza confirmed the RoSaT to be outside the universe

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Surely you see how ironic it is that you just went off saying how Universe =/= Mortal World, only to 180 and go "well damn freeza just meant the LIVING world when the manga hammered in how the ROSAT Isnt a part of the universe".
Why the mental gymnastics?

No shit he didnt state he was "outside" the macrocosm, literally not one person in any DBZ media uses that word or words stuff like that (gee wonder why).

Gran wished to be the strongest in the universe, the universe, as defined by that very manga, is the living world, other world, and kai world, which you literally just attested to.


This is Gran's wish (and Gas' too but you get the point).
"I wish to be the strongest in the universe".
The only caveat is no Gods.

Gran doesn't say "I wish to be the strongest in the living world", the dragon doesnt go "k but only mortal realm ok?", they just say universe, and as we know, the universe, is all that shit. And if it ain't, well kinda shooting yourself in the foot lad.



"In all the universe".

They pretty evidently aren't arbitrarily limiting themselves to a fraction of the actual universe.


They say universe, every narrative throughline implies the whole thing. Like damn sure wouldve sucked if Goku and Vegeta were in other world amiright?

Why even specify gods? 99% of them are in other world or kai realm?

But hey, adding on to the above.


Just for clarity, here's Freeza explaining that the ROSAT isn't apart of Uni 7.

And why is it Uni 7?
Easy.



Every time Goku, Vegeta, Whis, etc yap about the strongest in the universe, they mean all of Uni 7.
The WHOLE arc's premise is based on this.
Hell the IMMEDIATE thing after this page, is this


Focusing on the fact Gran made his wish (I like how bro says "the whole universe" as if the intent behind the wish wasn't obvious).

Yeah nah dude. ROSAT isn't apart of Universe 7, the wish was the strongest in the whole universe as mentioned by multiple dudes. The universe, as defined by literally everything, and the context, thanks to the frish, is Uni 7, not the mortal realm.

But, this is all pointless anyway, ignoring the fact this is just being obtuse, like come on man be real
It's on you to prove "the universe/all of the universe/the whole universe", is arbitrarily talking about just the mortal realm and not, well the universe as it's been defined for like the past decade, by characters who know full well what the uni entails such as Goku, Vegeta, Frieza (remember, he's been to other world), Whis, and the funny Namekian dude, the nigh-omniscient dragon (the very fact it made note of gods and what not shows it's completely aware), etc?


It ISN'T a model, why can't any of you understand that?

So in other words you are extrapolating information with no actual evidence to back it up. You are just taking statements of the 'universe' and extending that to the entire macrocosm. Even though you have no actual examples of characters ever referring to the entire macrocosm. Hell, the characters you quote like the Heeters? There is zero indication they are even aware of the structure of the macrocosm. Is there any indication of them ever referring to the Afterlife as an actual space or the Kaioshin Realm or anywhere else? No? Then what do you think they mean by the 'whole universe'? Do you think Granolah was thinking of the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm? Of course not. Even the wording used by Freeza would be vague given he says "I wasn't in THIS universe" when he's inside the Living World. Or how about the part where Freeza is stated to rule over 70% of the universe? Does that suddenly include the Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife?

And why specify the gods? Really now? I already explained why. It's because Beerus and Whis are the ONLY gods in Universe 7 stronger than Granolah at the time of his wish. There are no other gods that the dragon could possibly be talking about and where do those gods exist? Ah right, the Living World.

I don't have to prove anything. YOU are making a claim without any actual evidence. YOU have to demonstrate that your claim has any real bearing on this argument. Trying to shift the responsibility onto me when it's YOUR argument trying to argue for a change to the cosmology is utterly baffling.

And what's with the attitude? Did I somehow offend you? If so I apologise. Something I said must have been worded too roughly. Regardless of any of this, I want to focus on my game and I don't think this revision is going to pass so I'm leaving this to everyone else to deal with.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I'll disagree OP

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah no, I disagree with the OP

 

[Eseseso]

Sorry Omega but for now I disagree with OP

 

[AizenBankai09]

Disagree for now

 

[Ednaxel2]

 

[omegabronic]

They’re literally referred to as the same thing, you’re asserting that it’s a “physical” barrier.

they litterally aren't tho? like, have you read the OP? the entire of the first section is to explain there isn't any dimensional barrier separating the Afterlife from the living world
"and only separated by a "barrier engraved with a strange design" Engraved meaning to cut something in a material physically, aka the barrier separating them has to be physical to be able to be "engraved" upon"
you didn't answered this in any moment, you just said "the guide is talking about dimensional barrier like the ROSAT one" when an entire point in the OP is to explain how that is not the case, if you had covered it it would be 1 thing, but you just.......ignored the explanation completely

I don’t know what you mean by that, but I’m saying that the dimensional barrier concept in the manga is talked about in the guides. It’s just called a dimensional barrier, not the “RoSaT” barrier.

and i am saying that it isn't, that is the point of contention, the Afterlife barrier is clearly physical, with me giving explanation for such, you are not covering said explanations, you are just affirming that they are the same while ignoring it completely

The scan says that it doesn’t belong to any of the worlds depicted in figure 1, but exists between them.

the scan doesn't say that last part, and the first part doesn't say "worlds" it says "world" aka "it doesn't belong anywhere in the world that is depicted in Fig 1" aka "it doesn't belong to the macrocosm"

you are also somehow ignoring the other statements about that say that more clearly, like this one "どの世界にも属さない"/"That which doesn't belong to the world" since the in between the realms is obviously part of the world/macrocosm, then it is verbatim said that the subspace and such doesn't belong there/isn't part of it

a problem i have been seeing is you just talking about 1 scan instead of the entire point, with you also ignoring the other points or the entire premise without covering it at all, if you are going to answer this, then please re read the OP again and cover everything from it, it makes debating here easier, both for you and me

I literally showed you a translation by Executor that explains this point.

which is the same one i am using

That it’s detached and and doesn’t belong to any of the worlds in figure 1, but that it exists between them.

that last part? never said in the scans at all, regardless of the straight statement that it doesn't belong to the world, period, no "fig 1", regardless of that, none of the scans say or even imply that it is in between the realms of the macrocosm the fact that the Afterlife is physically connected to the living world should be proof that it isn't

The manga shows us a dimensional barrier, that gets distorted and it leads them back to the Living World. In the guides, it tells us about the same barrier that separates the afterlife and living universe.

it doesn't, that is like, the entire point

The proof is in the statements provided, you keep going on about this “physical” barrier, and I have no clue what you’re implying with that.

a literal physical wall, since that is how it is implied to be, not a "dimensional wall" just a physical one, that is the point of the explanation that you somehow didn't understood even when i explained how that is the point verbatim

I assume you’re trying to say it’s a 3D barrier, but you’d have to be the one to prove that.

i did in the OP, that is the entire point of that section even

My guy, the statement literally talks about a barrier, there is no mention of a “physical” wall.

physical barrier = physical wall, at least in the way i am using the word, and yes there is mentions about the wall/barrier that shows that it is physical, you can check it in the OP you know

Also, I would love to see this scan of Beerus claiming that the afterlife and living universe are connected 3 dimensionally.

again.........have you read the OP at all?
"as Whis' technique to go from Beerus' planet(Inside the universe) to the afterlife takes 26 minutes, but to go from Beerus' planet to another point in the universe(Earth) takes 35 minutes, which would be weird if the Afterlife is another space time/dimension. How can 2 points in the same space be further apart than a place that isn't in the same space at all? Sustaining this more, Beerus and Whis even say that Earth is "not too far away" from the Otherworld, and that it takes mere 3 minutes of travel to reach Earth from there."

like......it really feels like you didn't

We do, Buu makes a hole in the dimensional barrier with his chi and he makes a hole that leaves back to the living universe, Gotenks does the same thing. The guides also support this sentiment.

this proves that it separates the ROSAT from the living world, which i am saying that isn't part of the macrocosm to begin with...........but how about you answer my question? which proof is there that this dimensional barrier is what separates the Living World from the Afterlife? you didn't presented proof of that here

the barrier separating them has to be physical to be able to engraved upon, which the one in the ROSAT can't since it isn't physical to begin with

Ultima explains Buu breaking through the dimensional barrier, and how the outside space technique was an amplified version of it.
He uses an analogy of planes of existence to explain why Buu making a hole in the dimensional barrier allowed him to go to the living universe, as it represented the fabric of space-time. This exact sequence happens in the manga as well, excluding the outside space technique. The RoSaT is never stated to be outside of U7 it’s an area of subspace.

it is said to not be, alongside with Subspace not being part of the world, regardless of that, it is also never said to be part of the macrocosm to begin with, so you would have to prove that as well

The subspace is what is between the macrocosm, as Executor told us before. Also, the Broly statement literally tells us that messing with the dimensional barrier affects space-time.

that isn't in any of the scans at all, one even say that it doesn't belong in the world/macrocosm at all, how about instead of just saying "this guys said this" how about you show me, IN THE SCANS, where such information is said?

You missed my point, can a 3D object be left or right to another 3D object. The answer is yes even though a 3D object introduces the directions of up and down it still keeps left and right from a 2D line.

point is, Space Times are not in any of these other directions, they are stranded in the 5th axis direction, these other directions can exist, space times just do not occupy them

besides if you are arguing that the Subspace is what separates the Afterlife from the Living World.......then this statement makes even less sense as the Subspace wouldn't have dimensionality/an axis to being with, making any notion of "up and down" or direction non existent to begin with, making the statement even more contradictory for the 2 realms to not be physically separated

I’m using that same analogy here. The The 5D axis is what separates the space-times. You have to show me the Beerus statement, but I’m assuming the statement is that it wouldn’t take that long with Whis’ method of travel which doesn’t contradict space-time separation, but I’ll wait until you post that scan.

.......the scan is in the OP........honest question, have you read it at all?

Yes, the 5D axis is a spatial one, I was referring to the space-times themselves. They would have a temporal one. Another direction from their spatial ones.

ok? what is the pint you are making?

Again, what do you mean by physical? If you mean that’s it implies its 3D, no it doesn’t imply that. Hermetical can have multiple definitions, but even if you choose this one something being tight wouldn’t contradict the space-time separation from the subspace.

.........you legit read the "hermetically" point without reading the engraved one?

regardless, no, hermetically means a type of physical seal, that is its meaning, nothing in the scan implies any other meaning than that, which is supported by the immediate earlier statement that indicates that it is a physical barrier/wall that separates the afterlife, not a dimensional one like the ROSAT

I said that the terminology doesn’t matter, but it’s stated to be between dimensions which would make them dimensions if it wasn’t already self evident.

no it wouldn't................it just means that the Subspace is in between dimensions, it doesn't prove that any of the realms that it isn't to separate are dimensions, nothing about the other realms is ever said in the statement of it being in between dimensions, you are drawing this conclusion form nothing

It’s never stated to be a physical wall, this is the same dimensional barrier that when effected distorts space-time as we see in the Broly movie. I don’t know why you keep mentioning a physical wall.

already covered the physical barrier part above, so now i ask, prove this, if you want to affirm that they are the same even when both have completely different descriptions and contradictory ones from one another at that, you will need some serious proof

I’m saying that even above 3D structures there’s a distance between 2 things even space-times. Like there’s a distance between 2 space-times, but we’d accept it as an unquantifiable distance. Though I’m not saying that there’s some random distance that’s implied, I’m just mentioning how even if I were to accept that point it wouldn’t really contradict space-time separation either way.

......my dude, the kaioshin realm point wasn't about the distance itself alone, it was about how said distance is said to be, how its separation is said to be like, you saying "being far doesn't disprove a space time" is not answering the point at all..........i am still flabbergasted, it doesn't look like you read the OP at all

It’s a special type of movement that’s introduced after the guides, it doesn’t contradict the fact that you would normally need teleportation.

that doesn't matter, the scan says "you need teleportation" one can get there without teleportation, therefore it is contradicted, regardless of other abilities that Whis has with Warp, it doesn't matter for the fact that it isn't teleportation, the scans is not "you normally need TP to reach it" it is "you NEED TP to reach it", you can't just change what is said in favor of what you are arguing

It does, we get elaboration on this dimensional barrier.

......we don't, at least, not anything that would matter for the point you are answering as, again, nothing ever states that these is what separate the realms in the macrocosm at all

No, Whis’ warp is shown to do unique things-

as i said in the OP "it clearly isn't teleportation but a speed ability, so whatever argument one might give for what it is, is irelevant, all that matters for this scan to be contradicted is that they simply are not using teleportation at all"

You explaining how it does special things really doesn't cover the point at all

No it wouldn’t, it’s talking about the actual worlds the area between them isn’t the world, but the subspace.

the area between 2 parts of the world is very much part of said world, yes, regarldless, we literally can see between the Kaioshin realm and Living World in the scan regardless, making this point not relevant at all

We again literally had Executor translate this and explain the context.

and i am using his translations as well, which why i can say that nothing is ever said about it separating any of the realms inside the macrocosm

you either point me to where it is saying that it does separate them, or stop talking, going back and forth with "he said this, the scan doesn't say this, but he said this, but the scan didn't..." doesn't seem like a useful use of our time here

It literally tells us that it doesn’t belong to the worlds depicted, but instead exist between them. Simple conclusion.

again, that last part is never said......at all, you are taking this conclusion based on nothing, it isn't said in the scan, it isn't implied in the scan, nothing in the scan points to this

It would atleast apply to the Kaioshin Realm and RoSaT as they’re being separated as the worlds with different time dimensions.

no, it only applies to the ROSAT, that is the dimension said to have a different Time Dimension then the rest of the world, the statement doesn't say that the Kaioshin realm has a different time dimension then, say, the living world for example

Worlds doesn’t contradict being alternate dimensions, as established by the subspace they indeed are.

the Subspace litterally never talks or alludes to them at all and is said to not be part of the world they are in

Even if you don’t wanna say they are you would still have to acknowledge that the thing between them lacks the concept of time and space.

no, since the said "thing" isn't in between them at all............you also didn't answered the point you quoted in this answer btw......so

But the subspace is which the RoSaT is an area within subspace.

..........forget the OP, have you read what you are answering at all?
"but as i said, also doesn't prove it either, and it isn't a "fact" when nothing proves that to be the case, there isn't any statements about the ROSAT or Subspace being inside U7"
You answering a point saying that Subspace and ROSAT aren't inside U7 with "they are in Universe 7" without any explanation with it is the synonymous of wasting time, you didn't made a point, you made an affirmation without any substance, like........how does that answer the point of "no statement says that either of those are inside U7"?

We literally see it in the RoSaT with gotenks and Buu.

which i am arguing both that isn't inside U7 and that the barrier there doesn't separate any of the realms that are inside of the macrocosm

as above, an empty affirmation that doesn't cover any of the points i made is just a waste of time, you know what i am arguing, so of course just the opposite of my conclusion without covering the points leading to said conclusion help in nothing in the debate at all, there isn't even anything for me to counerpoint here as you didn't made a point, you made an affirmation

The dimension of swirling lights isn’t the subspace, they crack the dimensional barrier, and that leads to space-time being distorted. They just go to another dimension via the crack in the dimensional barrier.

The thing that separates macrocosms is something called the neutral space though.

Which i am arguing to be what the Dimension of Swirling Lights Gogeta and Broly go in the their fight is

......when has anyone mentioned Subspace in this point at all?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also find myself agreeing with the opposition. And iirc, Luffy had other plans to point out but was put on hold since there are too many DB related threads open.

But others already pointed it out that "Existing next to each other" is not proof if it all just being one big body of space and spatio-temporal barriers are painfully blatant in against it not all being a single body of space. And the only reason Whis is able to travel is because Angels literally have a Warp ability added to their Ki flight that allows them to cross barriers; so them being able to travel from point A to point B has 0 counter evidence against the spatial boundaries.

 

[omegabronic]

That doesn’t imply that there is no spatio-temporal separation. In the universe standards of this wiki it is explained that a wall can still serve as a separation, as long as it is not contradicted with three-dimensional travel between the realms, since the latter would mean that there is no spatio-temporal separation.

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

if it is a physical barrier, then yes it does disprove spatio-temporal separation:
"Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes."

But in Dragon Ball there was never a regular travel between Afterlife and the Living World, so this doesn’t mean that they are physically connected (Not to mention that the barrier that surrounds the Living World is dimensional, as seen when Super Buu left ROSAT).

"But that barrier separates ROSAT and the Living World, you can't prove that it's the same for Afterlife"

Well since ROSAT is a subspace that is located between the realms of the universe, if to access the Living World from there you have to create a dimensional hole like Super Buu or Gotenks, that implies that the walls that surround the Living World are dimensional.

Part of the argument is that Subspace is never implied nor said to be the inbetween the realms of the macrocosm at all, it said quite that it isn't even part of it to begin with, and due to that, it doesn't prove that the walls surrounding the Living World are dimensional, it implies that the walls surrounding the Macrocosm are dimensional, which is what i covered in the last point in the OP soooo

Supporting this, DBS Broly light novel explains that the energy of Gogeta and Broly collapsed the dimensional boundaries of the universe, implying that the Living World is surrounded by a dimensional barrier, which can only be overcome by spatio-temporal attacks, as Gogeta and Broly did or as Super Buu did. (I would say that Buuhan also did it but this is not about Toei lol)

when are the Dimensional Barriers in DBS:Broly said to be inside U7, or more speciafically, the Living World? all we have is that breaking them took Gogeta and Broly to a dimension that doesn't exist in Reality, that doesn't prove that the barrier was even inside U7(which is the "reality" the film takes place in)

so i have to ask......what is making you reach such conclusions without a premise that proves them?

The fact that subspace is a place between dimensions implies that there is a void between the realms of the macrocosm, which inherently implies a space-temporal separation as explained by Ultima.

not really since Subspace being between dimensions =/= it being between the realms of the macrocosm, specially when the most relevant of them are very clearly physically in the same space and are not separated by anything other than 3D physical walls and distance as i explained in the OP, it would contradict this notion regardless, altho since the likes of the Afterlife are not said to be alternate dimensions to begin with, the statement wouldn't indicate that it is inbetween the likes of it regardless

And well, Whis' travels don’t contradict anything, since this is a dimensional travel (logically, since Whis uses warp to travel to other universes and Zeno’s palace, unless you want to imply that these are physically connected to universe 7) and the mention that "only instant transmission can reach the Kaioshin realm" was made long before the appearance of Whis, exactly almost 20 years earlier, in Daizenshuu 7.

which shows that the statement was retconned since Whis' warp isn't teleportation

If it's not among the dimensions of the macrocosm, where else is it? Because the manga didn’t show other dimensions than those of the macrocosm, so I see this argument as too vague.

outside of it? like, why are you speaking as if it needs to be inside of the Macrocosm for its statements to work? it doesn't
specially when the macrocosm is not said to have other dimensions inside of it, your argument for the realms being dimensions to begin with is based around the Subspace which............gets circular when you also use them to prove that the Subspace is inside the macrocosm because it is between "dimensions", as you are using the conclusion of one argument to also prove the base of said argument, it is hella weird that you are doing that rn

Error, it refers to the fact that it doesn’t belong to any of the worlds of the macrocosm, not to the macrocosm itself.

it says "it doesn't belong anywhere in the world" aka, singular, all while it is talking about the Macrocosm, it isn't talking about the individual realms in it, it is talking about it in its entirety

regardless of that, it isn't ever said to be in between the realms of the macrocosm, so the main point is still maintained regardless

Below I will provide the official translation made by Planeta Cómic about Chozenshuu 4:

“SUBSPACE

Interdimensional places that don’t belong to any of the worlds.

• Sugoroku Game Room
• Room of Spirit and Time”

Spanish translations when we have the translated Raw Japanese that clearly is different from the Spanish translation? If this is different from what is said in the raw text of the original launguage, then it doesn't really matter much

DB is japanese, why base our points in the adapted spanish text version instead of the raw kanji/japanese version?

 

[omegabronic]

But others already pointed it out that "Existing next to each other" is not proof if it all just being one big body of space

that is........not the point used in the OP tho

and spatio-temporal barriers are painfully blatant in against it not all being a single body of space.

yeah...........the point is how those are not what separates the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm from the living world, heck the Afterlife is explicit that it is an physical barrier even, which contradicts space time separation in our standards

And the only reason Whis is able to travel is because Angels literally have a Warp ability added to their Ki flight that allows them to cross barriers; so them being able to travel from point A to point B has 0 counter evidence against the spatial boundaries.

again.......i never used the fact that they travel to these places as proof of non spatio temporal separation.......why is everyone mentioning it as if i did? I would appreciate if you actually disagreed with points i made in the OP exclusively and not points i didn't made

 

[LordDestroit10K]

this proves that it separates the ROSAT from the living world, which i am saying that isn't part of the macrocosm to begin with...........but how about you answer my question?

In this wiki accepted ROSAT as part of the macrocosm in this thread:

Reintroducting HTC to the macrocosm. (DBS)

I'm starting to think my interpretation is the more clear one even more now since the context around HTC and how the flow of time is weirder and at a different pace than how most normal space-times flow of time work makes it make more sense with the concept of time and space. The part of it...

vsbattles.com

and i am using his translations as well, which why i can say that nothing is ever said about it separating any of the realms inside the macrocosm

Well, you say that you use his translations, and Executor said that the subspace is between the realms, and it belongs to the macrocosm...

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Would like these translated please: Why are there penises in those pics?

vsbattles.com

however, here you are saying that the subspace doesn’t belong to the macrocosm after stating that you use Executor’s translations, well…..

 

[omegabronic]

In this wiki accepted ROSAT as part of the macrocosm in this thread:

Reintroducting HTC to the macrocosm. (DBS)

I'm starting to think my interpretation is the more clear one even more now since the context around HTC and how the flow of time is weirder and at a different pace than how most normal space-times flow of time work makes it make more sense with the concept of time and space. The part of it...

vsbattles.com

and this thread is changing that by arguing that none of the statements used suggest that

Well, you say that you use his translations, and Executor said that the subspace is between the realms, and it belongs to the macrocosm...

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Would like these translated please: Why are there penises in those pics?

vsbattles.com

however, here you are saying that the subspace doesn’t belong to the macrocosm after stating that you use Executor’s translations, well…..

using his translations =/= using his interpretations of said translations

i already have the text and know what it is saying, as such i can just read and affirm that it doesn't say that it is inbetween the realms of the macrocosm, nor even inside of it, anywhere in the text that was translated

 

[LordDestroit10K]

when are the Dimensional Barriers in DBS:Broly said to be inside U7, or more speciafically, the Living World?

Gogeta and Broly were fighting inside the Living World and then they crushed the dimensional boundaries before getting inside the DSSL.

gets circular when you also use them to prove that the Subspace is inside the macrocosm because it is between "dimensions", as you are using the conclusion of one argument to also prove the base of said argument, it is hella weird that you are doing that rn

As I said before, this wiki accepts ROSAT and Subspace inside the macrocosm. So your point is wrong here…

it says "it doesn't belong anywhere in the world"

Spanish translations when we have the translated Raw Japanese that clearly is different from the Spanish translation? If this is different from what is said in the raw text of the original

I send Executor’s translations, and he says the same thing I said before about subspace. Unless you think you can translate better than him…

 

[Robo432343]

There’s also the fact that all the 12 universes exist inside a single timeline, they cannot be separated space-time continuums

This is proven several times when they talk about timelines, they mention “space-time”

When Goku black went to the main timeline, he called it a path in space-time. When beerus killed zamasu, he said “there is no way a god killing another god won’t have an affect on space-time” which is referring to affect on timelines.

It’s made clear only the timelines are separate space-time continuums, not a single “macrocosm”. Whis even says “a time in your world” when talking about timelines

And when they talk about the past, present and future it's made clear that all the 12 universes exist in the same past present and future

All this further supports there is no separate space-time continuum in canon.

We even see sidra and Quitela talking to each other in the same time and talking about stuff that will happen in the future(attacking frieza)

Whis even says "this space" has 12 universes which implies the 12 universes exist inside a single space and time.

so disagree

 

[Hasty12345]

so disagree

I’m sorry, who or what are you disagreeing with?

 

[omegabronic]

Gogeta and Broly were fighting inside the Living World and then they crushed the dimensional boundaries before getting inside the DSSL.

......this doesn't answer my question, this doesn't prove that the Dimensional Barriers are inside the Living World

As I said before, this wiki accepts ROSAT and Subspace inside the macrocosm. So your point is wrong here…

my point about you using the Subspace that the subspace is between the realms of the macrocosm to prove that they are dimensions only to use that they are dimensions to prove that it is inside the macrocosm for separating the said dimensions you only used the Subspace itself as proof being circular isn't contradicted with that, it is not even related

regardless......yeah it was accepted...........which is why this thread exists to, between other things, change that as well, since there isn't any evidence pointing for either being inside the Macrocosm to begin with, as i explained in the OP

I send Executor’s translations, and he says the same thing I said before about subspace.

his translations didn't say the same thing, the Spanish uses plural his uses and implies singular

Unless you think you can translate better than him…

can we not devolve this to pecks to another like the last thread? you even got your posts deleted because of that, this doesn't help, drop it

 

[Quantu]

There’s also the fact that all the 12 universes exist inside a single timeline, they cannot be separated space-time continuums

This is proven several times when they talk about timelines, they mention “space-time”

When Goku black went to the main timeline, he called it a path in space-time. When beerus killed zamasu, he said “there is no way a god killing another god won’t have an affect on space-time” which is referring to affect on timelines.

It’s made clear only the timelines are separate space-time continuums, not a single “macrocosm”. Whis even says “a time in your world” when talking about timelines

And when they talk about the past, present and future it's made clear that all the 12 universes exist in the same past present and future

All this further supports there is no separate space-time continuum in canon.

We even see sidra and Quitela talking to each other in the same time and talking about stuff that will happen in the future(attacking frieza)

Whis even says "this space" has 12 universes which implies the 12 universes exist inside a single space and time.

so disagree

Copy-pasted word for word from ComicVine

Dragon Ball disrespect thread, the true tier of Dragon Ball - Gen. Discussion - Comic Vine

Dragon Ball disrespect thread, the true tier of Dragon BallHello guys, today I will be exposing the true tier of this verse.Warning: May be disturbing

comicvine.gamespot.com

 

[Robo432343]

Copy-pasted word for word from ComicVine

Dragon Ball disrespect thread, the true tier of Dragon Ball - Gen. Discussion - Comic Vine

Dragon Ball disrespect thread, the true tier of Dragon BallHello guys, today I will be exposing the true tier of this verse.Warning: May be disturbing

comicvine.gamespot.com

yeah

 

[LordDestroit10K]

There’s also the fact that all the 12 universes exist inside a single timeline, they cannot be separated space-time continuums

This is proven several times when they talk about timelines, they mention “space-time”

When Goku black went to the main timeline, he called it a path in space-time. When beerus killed zamasu, he said “there is no way a god killing another god won’t have an affect on space-time” which is referring to affect on timelines.

It’s made clear only the timelines are separate space-time continuums, not a single “macrocosm”. Whis even says “a time in your world” when talking about timelines

And when they talk about the past, present and future it's made clear that all the 12 universes exist in the same past present and future

All this further supports there is no separate space-time continuum in canon.

We even see sidra and Quitela talking to each other in the same time and talking about stuff that will happen in the future(attacking frieza)

Whis even says "this space" has 12 universes which implies the 12 universes exist inside a single space and time.

so disagree

There is a void between the universes, which coexist in parallel in the neutral space, so they are inherently spatio-temporally separated.
And the universe standards explain that the fact that two actions are simultaneous doesn’t contradict this spatio-temporal separation, this only means that the universes flow in the same direction of time. And that Whis statement is a bad translation, so your point is wrong.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

this doesn't answer my question, this doesn't prove that the Dimensional Barriers are inside the Living World

I will explain it more simply. Gogeta and Broly fight on earth, in the living world. Then, their energies collide and the dimensional boundaries don’t resist. If these two were fighting in the living world, and the dimensional boundaries didn’t supported that energy, where do the dimensional boundaries belong? Of course, to the place where Gogeta and Broly were fighting, that is, the living world.

my point about you using the Subspace that the subspace is between the realms of the macrocosm to prove that they are dimensions only to use that they are dimensions to prove that it is inside the macrocosm for separating the said dimensions you only used the Subspace itself as proof being circular isn't contradicted with that, it is not even related

Well, it would be curious for Chozenshuu 4 to talk about the realms of the macrocosm, and explain that subspace is a realm between dimensions that doesn’t belong to any of the realms, and then not refer to the dimensions or realms of which it has spoken before, right?

can we not devolve this to pecks to another like the last thread? you even got your posts deleted because of that, this doesn't help, drop it

The fact that your arguments are circular doesn't help either, but it's okay…

For the moment I will keep reading the comments, my points are already explained. Bye…

 

[Hasty12345]

I will explain it more simply. Gogeta and Broly fight on earth, in the living world. Then, their energies collide and the dimensional boundaries don’t resist. If these two were fighting in the living world, and the dimensional boundaries didn’t supported that energy, where do the dimensional boundaries belong? Of course, to the place where Gogeta and Broly were fighting, that is, the living world.

This relies on the assumption the living world and macrocosm have different dimensional boarders, which is what omega has provided evidence against in the OP.

The Broly fight doesn’t contribute to the argument.

 

[omegabronic]

I will explain it more simply. Gogeta and Broly fight on earth, in the living world. Then, their energies collide and the dimensional boundaries don’t resist.

don't exist? what are you talking about? of course they do, they break them, twice even

If these two were fighting in the living world, and the dimensional boundaries didn’t supported that energy, where do the dimensional boundaries belong? Of course, to the place where Gogeta and Broly were fighting, that is, the living world.

the fact that the Dimensional Walls couldn't handle their clash is somehow proof that the dimensional walls are inside the Living World? even when breaking them made them leave their reality completely? how does one prove the other?

Regardless, how does this matter for the fact that the likes of the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realms are separated by physical walls/Barriers and not Space-Time Barriers of any kind?

Well, it would be curious for Chozenshuu 4 to talk about the realms of the macrocosm, and explain that subspace is a realm between dimensions that doesn’t belong to any of the realms, and then not refer to the dimensions or realms of which it has spoken before, right?

.....you do realize that none of the realms of the Macrocosm are said to be alternate dimensions for the Subspace being between dimensions to matter to them right? with the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm being separated by physical barriers and 3D distance making it explicitly not relate to them even, that is a point in the OP, why are you just picking 1 part of the OP to answer while ignoring the other parts

The fact that your arguments are circular doesn't help either, but it's okay…

my arguments are not circular..........what are you even arguing about?

 

[Killerdrone123]

don't exist? what are you talking about? of course they do, they break them, twice even

He says don't resist

the fact that the Dimensional Walls couldn't handle their clash is somehow proof that the dimensional walls are inside the Living World? even when breaking them made them leave their reality completely? how does one prove the other?

Regardless, how does this matter for the fact that the likes of the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realms are separated by physical walls/Barriers and not Space-Time Barriers of any kind?


.....you do realize that none of the realms of the Macrocosm are said to be alternate dimensions for the Subspace being between dimensions to matter to them right? with the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm being separated by physical barriers and 3D distance making it explicitly not relate to them even, that is a point in the OP, why are you just picking 1 part of the OP to answer while ignoring the other parts


my arguments are not circular..........what are you even arguing about?

I think you are missing his point he is saying that chozenshu includes subspace under the section "realms of the macrocosm" so he is saying that the guide directly says that the subspace is a realm and part of the macrocosm also the said subspace was called interdimensional

 

[omegabronic]

He says don't resist

yeah.......i know he said that

I think you are missing his point he is saying that chozenshu includes subspace under the section "realms of the macrocosm"

it doesn't tho? can you show me the translation of said section and that it is under it?

so he is saying that the guide directly says that the subspace is a realm and part of the macrocosm

i know he is saying that the guide says that, he just didn't showed where it says that, the currently scans used for Subspace does not mention anything about it being inside the macrocosm, and even say otherswise as well, so i find that weird and thus request for you to show the "realms of the macrocosm" section and that Subspace falls under it

also regardless, this would contradicted the clear cut statements about physical barriers being what separates the likes of the Afterlife from the living world anyway

also the said subspace was called interdimensional

......that doesn't mean much for this conversation tho

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I see this strongest in the Universe point being brought up, so I’m just gonna address it real quick

The prophecy for Oracle Fish is actually stated not to be referring to Granolah.

Whis also states it’s not Frieza and it was probably someone who emerged recently so when Oracle fish’s prophecy is stated near Granolah wanting to become the strongest it’s just to make you think that but it’s stated otherwise later within the arc and there’s no proof that it reached the other realms besides the living realm.

So the wishes had nothing to do with the oracle fish’s prophecy.

they litterally aren't tho? like, have you read the OP? the entire of the first section is to explain there isn't any dimensional barrier separating the Afterlife from the living world
"and only separated by a "barrier engraved with a strange design" Engraved meaning to cut something in a material physically, aka the barrier separating them has to be physical to be able to be "engraved" upon"
you didn't answered this in any moment, you just said "the guide is talking about dimensional barrier like the ROSAT one" when an entire point in the OP is to explain how that is not the case, if you had covered it it would be 1 thing, but you just.......ignored the explanation completely

Engraved doesn’t mean to cut something. It just means that something is imprinted or marked there, but it doesn’t suggest that something be cut 3 dimensionally and marked. There’s really no basis for that claim. I did answer what you said I showed you dimensional barrier within the DBZ manga. Gotenks distorting a hole in it and getting brought back into the living world. In the guides we also see this same barrier. I didn’t ignore the explanation you’re just ignoring the source material of the manga.

and i am saying that it isn't, that is the point of contention, the Afterlife barrier is clearly physical, with me giving explanation for such, you are not covering said explanations, you are just affirming that they are the same while ignoring it completely

It’s not you trying to twist a word in how the dimensional barrier is described and extrapolate it to mean a physical 3D barrier does not prove you right. You’re affirming that it is, but your evidence doesn’t showcase that.

the scan doesn't say that last part, and the first part doesn't say "worlds" it says "world" aka "it doesn't belong anywhere in the world that is depicted in Fig 1" aka "it doesn't belong to the macrocosm" then it is verbatim said that the subspace and such doesn't belong there/isn't part of it

you are also somehow ignoring the other statements about that say that more clearly, like this one "どの世界にも属さない"/"That which doesn't belong to the world" since the in between the realms is obviously part of the world/macrocosm,

It does say that, it literally tells us how it doesn’t belong to the macrocosm, but instead exists between them. That’s why it explains how it doesn’t belong to any of the worlds in figure 1. You’re butchering the context and Executor who’s a Japanese speaker literally explained this to us.

a problem i have been seeing is you just talking about 1 scan instead of the entire point, with you also ignoring the other points or the entire premise without covering it at all, if you are going to answer this, then please re read the OP again and cover everything from it, it makes debating here easier, both for you and me

I’ve already done so. This is literally the whole point of me replying to you.

which is the same one i am using

Well you’re butchering the context of said scan when Executor already explained it to us. That it’s referring to how it doesn’t belong to the worlds, but exist between them. That’s why it talks about figure 1.

that last part? never said in the scans at all, regardless of the straight statement that it doesn't belong to the world, period, no "fig 1", regardless of that, none of the scans say or even imply that it is in between the realms of the macrocosm the fact that the Afterlife is physically connected to the living world should be proof that it isn't

It literally says it exists between dimensions, what are you on about? Also asserting that the afterlife is physically connected to the living world doesn’t debunk the subspace scan. Especially when you haven’t proved so.

it doesn't, that is like, the entire point

I already addressed how we do above. It seems like you’re ignoring what I’m saying.

a literal physical wall, since that is how it is implied to be, not a "dimensional wall" just a physical one, that is the point of the explanation that you somehow didn't understood even when i explained how that is the point verbatim

Never implied to be a physical 3D wall, you tried to use engrave to say that it is, but I already explained why that doesn’t prove your case. It’s also verbatim never stated to be a physical wall.

i did in the OP, that is the entire point of that section even

Your whole point was using engraved and proving it’s physical because it refers to something being cut up. That’s heavy extrapolation and isn’t what something being engraved means all of the time either way.

physical barrier = physical wall, at least in the way i am using the word, and yes there is mentions about the wall/barrier that shows that it is physical, you can check it in the OP you know

You’re trying to use the terminology of the Universe standards, but nothing says it’s a physical barrier/wall and the DBS Broly movie pretty much proves my point. The dimensional barrier is just the space-time. When the dimensional barrier gets cracked it distorts time space. The dimensional barrier is the same thing that Gotenks and Buu distort in the Z manga creating a hole back to Living Universe. I’ve read your OP I’m just saying your claims don’t really prove that they’re 3D physical walls.

again.........have you read the OP at all?
"as Whis' technique to go from Beerus' planet(Inside the universe) to the afterlife takes 26 minutes, but to go from Beerus' planet to another point in the universe(Earth) takes 35 minutes, which would be weird if the Afterlife is another space time/dimension. How can 2 points in the same space be further apart than a place that isn't in the same space at all? Sustaining this more, Beerus and Whis even say that Earth is "not too far away" from the Otherworld, and that it takes mere 3 minutes of travel to reach Earth from there."

like......it really feels like you didn't

I have read the OP, but Whis’ dimensional travel is what allows for it. He can travel to things that you recognize as other space-times or things outside of the multiverse in its entirely. Which is why I say the point doesn’t work. Plus, there is a distance between 2 space-times either way we just assume its unquantifiable. Hence why insignificant 5D exists.

this proves that it separates the ROSAT from the living world, which i am saying that isn't part of the macrocosm to begin with...........but how about you answer my question? which proof is there that this dimensional barrier is what separates the Living World from the Afterlife? you didn't presented proof of that here

the barrier separating them has to be physical to be able to engraved upon, which the one in the ROSAT can't since it isn't physical to begin with

Then, I’m saying that the subspace proves that it is in the macrocosm. The statement in the daizenshuu that you’ve been trying to say talks about a physical barrier because it mentions engraved. Engraved doesn’t just mean to make a cut on something. I’ve explained this many times.

it is said to not be, alongside with Subspace not being part of the world, regardless of that, it is also never said to be part of the macrocosm to begin with, so you would have to prove that as well

It’s said not to belong, but instead it exists between them. It’s basically saying it’s not in any of the worlds, but the subspace is between them. This is what I’ve been saying and I’ve been telling you Executor said the same thing regarding the context of this scan.

that isn't in any of the scans at all, one even say that it doesn't belong in the world/macrocosm at all, how about instead of just saying "this guys said this" how about you show me, IN THE SCANS, where such information is said?

Here

point is, Space Times are not in any of these other directions, they are stranded in the 5th axis direction, these other directions can exist, space times just do not occupy them

besides if you are arguing that the Subspace is what separates the Afterlife from the Living World.......then this statement makes even less sense as the Subspace wouldn't have dimensionality/an axis to being with, making any notion of "up and down" or direction non existent to begin with, making the statement even more contradictory for the 2 realms to not be physically separated

Space-time does keep the directions that 3D space has + an additional time direction. The 5th dimensional axis just separates the 2 space-times.
It just means a conceptually devoid realm of time and space is what exists between them, I don’t see what’s contradictory about that. I’ve never argued they were physically connected.

.......the scan is in the OP........honest question, have you read it at all?

I’ve read it, but I don’t see why you’re using that scan as a point as I’ve said above. Whis uses dimensional travel and there being an unquantifiable distance doesn’t contradict anything.

ok? what is the pint you are making?

I was just correcting one of the things you said.

.........you legit read the "hermetically" point without reading the engraved one?

regardless, no, hermetically means a type of physical seal, that is its meaning, nothing in the scan implies any other meaning than that, which is supported by the immediate earlier statement that indicates that it is a physical barrier/wall that separates the afterlife, not a dimensional one like the ROSAT

I’ve seen the engraved one, but neither of the statements indicate a physical barrier. Especially when we take in the context of the Buu panel and the DBS Broly statements.

no it wouldn't................it just means that the Subspace is in between dimensions, it doesn't prove that any of the realms that it isn't to separate are dimensions, nothing about the other realms is ever said in the statement of it being in between dimensions, you are drawing this conclusion form nothing

It literally tells us how it doesn’t belong to the worlds in [figure 1] but instead exist between them. That’s as straightforward as it gets. Executor who’s a Japanese speaker literally told us the exact context too.

already covered the physical barrier part above, so now i ask, prove this, if you want to affirm that they are the same even when both have completely different descriptions and contradictory ones from one another at that, you will need some serious proof

I explained why it doesn’t prove that it’s a physical barrier, and they’re literally called the same thing. There’s nothing contradictory about it at all. They’re both dimensional barriers.

......my dude, the kaioshin realm point wasn't about the distance itself alone, it was about how said distance is said to be, how its separation is said to be like, you saying "being far doesn't disprove a space time" is not answering the point at all..........i am still flabbergasted, it doesn't look like you read the OP at all

The Kaioshin Realm being said to be a different world from the Living World doesn’t really matter. The afterlife is said to be the same thing. There’s nothing that indicates the Kaioshin realm being outside the macrocosm. I have read the OP.

that doesn't matter, the scan says "you need teleportation" one can get there without teleportation, therefore it is contradicted, regardless of other abilities that Whis has with Warp, it doesn't matter for the fact that it isn't teleportation, the scans is not "you normally need TP to reach it" it is "you NEED TP to reach it", you can't just change what is said in favor of what you are arguing

I’m not changing what I’m saying, I’m saying that during the time of that guide Whis hadn’t been introduced yet. He doesn’t use teleportation, but he still has a unique method of travel that allows him to travel to other places that you recognize are space-times. I’m not changing what I’m arguing I think I made this point pretty clear. Whis doesn’t contradict the fact that you need teleportation and other dimensional modes of travel to enter.

......we don't, at least, not anything that would matter for the point you are answering as, again, nothing ever states that these is what separate the realms in the macrocosm at all

We do, the dimensional barrier getting cracked distorted space-time.

as i said in the OP "it clearly isn't teleportation but a speed ability, so whatever argument one might give for what it is, is irelevant, all that matters for this scan to be contradicted is that they simply are not using teleportation at all"

I explained how Whis’ version of dimensional travel is introduced after the guide was made. Also, that it doesn’t contradict the fact that you would need teleportation normally, but Whis’ special movement of travel allows him to enter.

You explaining how it does special things really doesn't cover the point at all

It does because I’m explaining the context and how it doesn’t suddenly mean you can just fly there with 3D movement.

the area between 2 parts of the world is very much part of said world, yes, regarldless, we literally can see between the Kaioshin realm and Living World in the scan regardless, making this point not relevant at all

The Living World and the Afterlife are said to be different worlds what do you mean?

and i am using his translations as well, which why i can say that nothing is ever said about it separating any of the realms inside the macrocosm you either point me to where it is saying that it does separate them, or stop talking, going back and forth with "he said this, the scan doesn't say this, but he said this, but the scan didn't..." doesn't seem like a useful use of our time here

You’re using his translation, and ignoring what the translation says along with the context of his translation that he clearly outlines for us.

again, that last part is never said......at all, you are taking this conclusion based on nothing, it isn't said in the scan, it isn't implied in the scan, nothing in the scan points to this

It does say that it exists between dimensions verbatim.

no, it only applies to the ROSAT, that is the dimension said to have a different Time Dimension then the rest of the world, the statement doesn't say that the Kaioshin realm has a different time dimension then, say, the living world for example

It talks about the RoSaT being a world with a different dimension of time from the world they’re in at that moment (The Kaioshin realm). So, yes the context makes it clear that the Kaioshin realm and RoSaT have different time dimensions.

the Subspace litterally never talks or alludes to them at all and is said to not be part of the world they are in

It does it tells us that it doesn’t belong to them, but instead exists between them.

no, since the said "thing" isn't in between them at all............you also didn't answered the point you quoted in this answer btw......so

It’s literally verbatim stated to be detached from them, but existing between them. So, yes it is between them.

..........forget the OP, have you read what you are answering at all?
"but as i said, also doesn't prove it either, and it isn't a "fact" when nothing proves that to be the case, there isn't any statements about the ROSAT or Subspace being inside U7"
You answering a point saying that Subspace and ROSAT aren't inside U7 with "they are in Universe 7" without any explanation with it is the synonymous of wasting time, you didn't made a point, you made an affirmation without any substance, like........how does that answer the point of "no statement says that either of those are inside U7"?

Figure 1 is referring to the macrocosm, it’s stated that the subspace doesn’t belong and is detached from the worlds in figure 1, but exists between them. Figure 1 is the macrocosm Aka U7.

which i am arguing both that isn't inside U7 and that the barrier there doesn't separate any of the realms that are inside of the macrocosm as above, an empty affirmation that doesn't cover any of the points i made is just a waste of time, you know what i am arguing, so of course just the opposite of my conclusion without covering the points leading to said conclusion help in nothing in the debate at all, there isn't even anything for me to counerpoint here as you didn't made a point, you made an affirmation

We literally see it in the DBZ manga, and then the same thing get talked about in the guides I’m not just saying empty words I provided scans for you in my earlier responses.

......when has anyone mentioned Subspace in this point at all?

I meant neutral space. That part is my bad. Minor typo.

 

[omegabronic]

Engraved doesn’t mean to cut something. It just means that something is imprinted or marked there, but it doesn’t suggest that something be cut 3 dimensionally and marked.

"to cut words or designs on wood, stone, metal, etc."

engrave verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of engrave verb in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

i have linked the meaning of the word in the OP, Engraved does mean to cut something in a 3D material to make a design or word in it

There’s really no basis for that claim.

which claim? that "engrave" means "to cut words or designs on physical materials"? because the basis is the very meaning of the word.......it is even linked there in the OP

I did answer what you said I showed you dimensional barrier within the DBZ manga.

but didn't about the fact that the argument is how the descriptions for the Kaioshin realm and the Afterlife clearly say something that can't be a dimensional barrier as what separates them from the Living World, that is what you didn't answered

Gotenks distorting a hole in it and getting brought back into the living world. In the guides we also see this same barrier.

read above, the whole point is that we don't

I didn’t ignore the explanation you’re just ignoring the source material of the manga.

i am not, you are, you are ignoring how the Afterlife and Kaioshin realm are said to be separated, which is completely different from the Barriers showed in the Gotenks and Super Buu scene

It’s not you trying to twist a word in how the dimensional barrier is described and extrapolate it to mean a physical 3D barrier does not prove you right. You’re affirming that it is, but your evidence doesn’t showcase that.

my evidence does showcase that, specially since the barrier separating the ROSAT doesn't have a design nor it is physical, it is invisible and damage to it regenerates after a while as seen with Super Buu, which also goes against the engraved description the one from the Afterlife has, it can't be the same barrier, they are fundamentally different in their very description

It does say that, it literally tells us how it doesn’t belong to the macrocosm, but instead exists between them.

between the macrocoms? you mean Neutral space? cause that is very different

also no, show me in the scan where it says it exists "between them" every time i ask you to show, you keep saying "it says that" instead of showing me where it says that......that doesn't lead anywhere for you

That’s why it explains how it doesn’t belong to any of the worlds in figure 1.

you do realize i am using the other part of the scan that doesn't specify that, right?

You’re butchering the context and Executor who’s a Japanese speaker literally explained this to us.

my dude, Ex translated the text, his interpretation over the translated text when we also have the meaning of the words is not higher than anyone else's when we already know what the text's words are saying

you saying that "he said he thinks it means this" is useless when i can just read the text to see that it doesn't say nor implies that at all, of course, if you have a part of the text that says that it is in between the realms of the macrocosm would be another story......you would need to show it tho

I’ve already done so. This is literally the whole point of me replying to you.

considering how your initial response didn't covered the arguments as to why the barrier of the afterlife is a physical one, the Moon comparison of the Kaioshin realm and the crystal barrier it has and Beerus saying that the afterlife is not very far from Earth.........yeah

Well you’re butchering the context of said scan when Executor already explained it to us. That it’s referring to how it doesn’t belong to the worlds, but exist between them. That’s why it talks about figure 1.

1 it talking about figure 1 doesn't make it magically mean that it is between the realms showed that, no idea how one can even begin to think it does

2 you seen to not realize me using the scan that DOESN'T talk about Figure 1, making this counter argument not relevant when is, again, only covering 1 scan and statement i am using instead of all of them

It literally says it exists between dimensions, what are you on about?

and none of the realms in the macrocosm are said to be other dimensions..........got the point yet?

Also asserting that the afterlife is physically connected to the living world doesn’t debunk the subspace scan. Especially when you haven’t proved so.

if it is physically connected then it isn't another dimension, if it isn't another dimension, then it can't be what the Subspace scan is refering to, if it is physically connected, Subspace can't be in between them, making the supposed scan about it being between them which you didn't showed yet contradictory as the Afterlife would be part of the realms that Subspace is supposedly said to be in between of

I already addressed how we do above. It seems like you’re ignoring what I’m saying.

you didn't tho, you.....legit didn't showed me anything that would even suggest that they are the same barrier......like, at all

Never implied to be a physical 3D wall, you tried to use engrave to say that it is, but I already explained why that doesn’t prove your case. It’s also verbatim never stated to be a physical wall.

and i explained why Engraved does mean that it is a physical 3D wall, and how that alone makes it very different from the one showed in the ROSAT example and the DBS:Broly fight

Your whole point was using engraved and proving it’s physical because it refers to something being cut up. That’s heavy extrapolation and isn’t what something being engraved means all of the time either way.

it is literally what "engraved" means.......design is also used alongside it, which is also re enforcing its actual meaning is what is being used

You’re trying to use the terminology of the Universe standards, but nothing says it’s a physical barrier/wall

it does, you know what i used to say it does, you saying it doesn't again without adding doesn't contribute to the debate

and the DBS Broly movie pretty much proves my point.

not really when you didn't prove that both are the same barrier

The dimensional barrier is just the space-time. When the dimensional barrier gets cracked it distorts time space. The dimensional barrier is the same thing that Gotenks and Buu distort in the Z manga creating a hole back to Living Universe. I’ve read your OP I’m just saying your claims don’t really prove that they’re 3D physical walls.

i am not saying that the one in the Broly and Gotenks case are physical, i am saying the Barrier in the afterlife is physical.......as "engraved with a peculiar design" would very blatantly mean

I have read the OP, but Whis’ dimensional travel is what allows for it. He can travel to things that you recognize as other space-times or things outside of the multiverse in its entirely.

and why does this matter for the point? i swear if you say anything about me using "he flew there" as a contradiction to them being space times when i said 10 times already that i didn't used said argument i will blow a fuse inside my head

Which is why I say the point doesn’t work.

........what doesn't work? the fact that the Afterlife is closer to Earth than another point in the same space as Earth? how does what you say makes that not work?

Plus, there is a distance between 2 space-times either way we just assume its unquantifiable. Hence why insignificant 5D exists.

.......this really doesn't answer my point

Then, I’m saying that the subspace proves that it is in the macrocosm.

which i ask again, what proof is there in the scans that say that? which part of the scans are you using to get the implication

The statement in the daizenshuu that you’ve been trying to say talks about a physical barrier because it mentions engraved. Engraved doesn’t just mean to make a cut on something. I’ve explained this many times.

equally explained why it does means to cut something since that is both the literal meaning of the word + what the rest of the description is saying as well

It’s said not to belong, but instead it exists between them.It’s basically saying it’s not in any of the worlds

no.......that last part isn't said, as for the "it is saying that it isn't in any of the worlds":

"It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world"

i don't think i need to explain why the spaces between the parts of the Macrocosm would still be part of the macrocosm, right? yet the Subspace is said to not be part of the world/macrocosm in general

, but the subspace is between them. This is what I’ve been saying and I’ve been telling you Executor said the same thing regarding the context of this scan.

you have been telling me, but you didn't showed me in the scan where such thing is said, already talked about Ex's translation and his opinions on them, no need to do it again

Here

show me where IN the scans, and not the scans themselves, i am already them for proof of it not being part of the world

Space-time does keep the directions that 3D space has + an additional time direction. The 5th dimensional axis just separates the 2 space-times.

in which they are stranded in a 5th axis/direction and not in any of the other 3D directions.......that is the point

It just means a conceptually devoid realm of time and space is what exists between them, I don’t see what’s contradictory about that. I’ve never argued they were physically

aka you are saying that they are divided by something that doesn't have any directions at all to say that they in a "down" direction compared to one another..........see the problem?

I’ve read it, but I don’t see why you’re using that scan as a point as I’ve said above. Whis uses dimensional travel and there being an unquantifiable distance doesn’t contradict anything.

do you even understand what the point is? i am confused on what you think it is at this point

I was just correcting one of the things you said.

oh ok

I’ve seen the engraved one, but neither of the statements indicate a physical barrier.

they do tho.....the latter words make it clear which definition of "engraved" is being used

Especially when we take in the context of the Buu panel and the DBS Broly statements.

the latter 2 you didn't proved are even remotely connected to the Afterlife one at all, so they don't help much

It literally tells us how it doesn’t belong to the worlds in [figure 1] but instead exist between them.

ignored the other scan that doesn't include Figure 1, the latter part is not said.........i am tired of having to repeat myself when you repeat yourself

That’s as straightforward as it gets.

read above, that isn't since being between the realms is not said..........again, repeating again, this is getting tiring

Executor who’s a Japanese speaker literally told us the exact context too.

he said his opinion about the translation, how does that is above the actual text saying otherwise completely is truly beyond me

I explained why it doesn’t prove that it’s a physical barrier, and they’re literally called the same thing.

they aren't, one is called "dimensional barrier" the other is called "barrier" just because both are barriers, it doesn't mean both are the same

There’s nothing contradictory about it at all. They’re both dimensional barriers.

no they aren't, the Afterlife one is never called that at all, its description is even completely different from what we saw of the actual dimensional barriers

The Kaioshin Realm being said to be a different world from the Living World doesn’t really matter. The afterlife is said to be the same thing. There’s nothing that indicates the Kaioshin realm being outside the macrocosm. I have read the OP.

when have i used the fact that they are called different worlds as proof of them not being space times? your answer here doesn't even correlate to what you are answering to, nor does it cover the actual point in the OP i said you didn't covered

btw, the Kaioshin realm is verbatim said to be outside

I’m not changing what I’m saying, I’m saying that during the time of that guide Whis hadn’t been introduced yet. He doesn’t use teleportation, but he still has a unique method of travel that allows him to travel to other places that you recognize are space-times. I’m not changing what I’m arguing I think I made this point pretty clear. Whis doesn’t contradict the fact that you need teleportation and other dimensional modes of travel to enter.

the statement is "you need teleportation to get in" there is no "normally" or anything like that, the fact that one can enter with anything outside of teleportation makes the statement get retconned regardless, if you say the same thing again about this, then ig we can agree to disagree as it is going nowhere

We do, the dimensional barrier getting cracked distorted space-time.

as i said, nothing indicates that the ones we saw separate the rest of the realms in the macrocosm, you saying we got more info on them in general doesn't answer what i said in the response you are responding

I explained how Whis’ version of dimensional travel is introduced after the guide was made. Also, that it doesn’t contradict the fact that you would need teleportation normally, but Whis’ special movement of travel allows him to enter.

........you legit said the same thing as one message above........ok

It does because I’m explaining the context and how it doesn’t suddenly mean you can just fly there with 3D movement.

........when have i said as such? regardless, point is that it isn't teleportation, that is all that matters for the point

The Living World and the Afterlife are said to be different worlds what do you mean?

???????? my dude, are you ok? this doesn't correlate to the point i said, what are you doing? how does both being called worlds matter for me saying that the parts in between parts of the same structure are still part of said structure?

You’re using his translation, and ignoring what the translation says

i am using EXACTLY what the translation says

along with the context of his translation that he clearly outlines for us.

the opinion he gives about the translation, which i disagree with and showed evidence from said translation that goes against his conclusion after reading it

It does say that it exists between dimensions verbatim.

..........again, that doesn't correlate to what i said at all as i never said it isn't between dimensions, but simply not between the realms of the macrocosm, as that is the part that is never said

It talks about the RoSaT being a world with a different dimension of time from the world they’re in at that moment (The Kaioshin realm). So, yes the context makes it clear that the Kaioshin realm and RoSaT have different time dimensions.

.........yeah, that is what i said

It does it tells us that it doesn’t belong to them, but instead exists between them.

It’s literally verbatim stated to be detached from them, but existing between them. So, yes it is between them.

why are you saying the same stuff in sequence? regardless, the other text/translation of the other part makes it clear that it isn't as it isn't part of the world at all, and that still doesn't answer the fact that it never says that it is in between the realms like Afterlife and Living World, you again didn't showed me where it says that, if you show the "between dimensions" when you know that i am arguing they aren't dimensions then.......oh boy will we be for a longer ride than i expected

Figure 1 is referring to the macrocosm, it’s stated that the subspace doesn’t belong and is detached from the worlds in figure 1, but exists between them.

and you are ignoring the other scan i am using that doesn't talk about "figure 1" at all........so

Figure 1 is the macrocosm Aka U7.

................that is part of the point yes.......so what?

We literally see it in the DBZ manga, and then the same thing get talked about in the guides I’m not just saying empty words I provided scans for you in my earlier responses.

the affirmation "the afterlife barrier is the same as these other ones" without any evidence for such is the empty words i am talking about

I meant neutral space. That part is my bad. Minor typo.

ok

 

[BOEGVELD]

The Daizenshuu 7 states that the Other World is a ''heavenly land that transcends dimensions'' in comparison to the Living World. This would, at bare minimum, mean the Realm is dimensionally separate from the Living World. Also, according to the Daizenshuu 7, the Demon Realm is a world in a dimension on the other side of the Universe, within the Living World. Meaning the Universe and Demon Realm are dimensionally separate, while both being within the Living World. The Other World, being separate from these two separate dimensions, would be dimensionally separate by default, too.

And lastly, the Other World is called a Cosmos not once, not twice, but a total of five times throughout the Daizenshuu 7 and Dragon Ball Landmark guidebooks. The term ''Cosmos'' quite literally means universe, which is a space-time according to many sources, including NASA. But, even beside that, the term is often used in Physical Cosmology to refer to a spacetime continuum.

Obviously disagree with the OP. Though the Cosmology Blog probably does need to be revamped.

 

[omegabronic]

The Daizenshuu 7 states that the Other World is a ''heavenly land that transcends dimensions'' in comparison to the Living World. This would, at bare minimum, mean the Realm is dimensionally separate from the Living World.

not really since that contradicts the earlier statements about the Afterlife and the physical barrier between them + the other situations that happened in Super as detailed in the OP

plus this would suggest that the Afterlife is transcendent above the Living World dimensionaly wise, which...........while having an effect of it being another dimension, also is contradicted a lot in the series, thus the scan was rejected a good few times in the past

Also, according to the Daizenshuu 7, the Demon Realm is a world in a dimension on the other side of the Universe, within the Living World. Meaning the Universe and Demon Realm are dimensionally separate, while both being within the Living World. The Other World, being separate from these two separate dimensions, would be dimensionally separate by default, too.

that isn't true, being separate from one while another unrelated realm is another dimension doesn't mean that the other realm is another dimension

regardless, this is a weird "world in the other side of the universe"? so it is another dimension, but it is physically in the other side of the physical universe? that is weird wording

And lastly, the Other World is called a Cosmos not once, not twice, but a total of five times throughout the Daizenshuu 7 and Dragon Ball Landmark guidebooks. The term ''Cosmos'' quite literally means universe, which is a space-time according to many sources, including NASA. But, even beside that, the term is often used in Physical Cosmology to refer to a spacetime continuum.

already went over this in the last thread, "cosmos" is vague in the way it is used to describe the Afterlife, thus it only makes it a "likely" rating as determined in the last thread, even then most votes of the staff were for the statements of it being "half" of the total macrocosm, so using this as solid proof of being another universe was already not accepted in the last thread

 

[KingTempest]

I agree.

On top of the evidence in the OP, Goku can teleport all over the macrocosm due to him being able to sense Ki there, but he couldn't sense Ki inside of the ROSAT, which is directly credited due to the fact that it has a separate space-time and it's a different dimension than the others

 

[TiltedFN]

I disagree with OP fra. I find it strange how teleportation is the only way to get the kai realm, yet its being argued these realms are just floating about in the physical universe. I can't help to think this is just arguments in bad faith. We know teleportation techniques like kai kai and I.T are able to travel to different dimensions like zeno's palace, which btw, is another dimension, based on this scan right here. So saying teleportation is the only way to travel to these realms does in fact mean these are spatialtemporally separated dimensions. Whis was also able to travel to zeno's dimension, it would just take longer. So we know for a fact that whis travels to other dimensions with his warp ability. Goku even said it would be IMPOSSIBLE for kid buu to get to the kaioshin realm without teleportation, these dimensional physical walls that you keep mentioning do not exist, and its been shown that "barriers" clearly mean the fabric of space and time that separates them, that's why toriyama calls them separated worlds completely. Do you really think the ONLY thing separating the worlds are just big brick walls or something? There is so much wrong with this but I'll humor you. What are these walls made of? Surely they can't be made of anything harder than the hardest material in the universe kachi kachin, so there's definitely people who could break it. Where are these physical barriers and why have they never been seen at all? Has nobody ever in history seen them? Why is teleportation the only way to get to the kaio realm and afterlife? Besides dying of course, why is this interdimensional technique that is specifically made to have the capabilities of traveling to other dimensions the ONLY WAY? Why can't this physical wall just be broken by strong characters? Why are the barriers that are confirmed to exist just the fabric of spacetime? Like the barrier between the rosat and the living world? Or the dimension broly and gogeta broke into? Why do toriyama and numerous statements from kakarot literally confirm that they do NOT sit in the same body of space? Chozenshuu 4 and kakarot literally tells us the ROSAT is an area of subspace, that the ROSAT is between dimensions sitting in the subspace. What does between dimensions mean? And what does it mean that you can break the dimensional barrier of the rosat and get back to the living realm? It means that the rosat is in fact between the dimensions for being in subspace which is what holds the dimensions. They literally can't share the same spacetime. Also, for the point of, "goku can sense ki in the afterlife and the kaioshin realm but can't sense ki in the ROSAT". Why exactly does this matter? We know the rosat has an explicit different flow of time which could just mean its harder for goku to ki sense in there, we do know that the afterlife and kaioshin realm have separate time axis, but they flow on the same rate of time. This doesn't suddenly mean, "oh yeah all the realms are just in one physical universe that you can travel to physically". That doesn't make any sense, different dimensions could have different properties. We really just don't know, piccolo can communicate between dimensions with goten and trunks, and surely that requires picking up some type of detection or ki signature. There's many things it could be, but it doesn't debunk separated realms in the macrocosm.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Agree with opposition FRA.

 

[KingTempest]

I agree.

On top of the evidence in the OP, Goku can teleport all over the macrocosm due to him being able to sense Ki there, but he couldn't sense Ki inside of the ROSAT, which is directly credited due to the fact that it has a separate space-time and it's a different dimension than the others

Scan in question

 

[LordDestroit10K]

Scan in question

And Piccolo was able to communicate with Goten and Trunks through telepathy, a Ki ability, so what is your point?

 

[KingTempest]

And Piccolo was able to communicate with Goten and Trunks through telepathy, a Ki ability, so what is your point?

Did I mention Piccolo? A completely different character? I said Goku.

I said Goku could sense Ki in the afterlife but not across a dimensional barrier. Goku (in the Cell Saga) could sense Ki from the Afterlife to the Main Universe and (Buu Saga) from the Kaioshin Realm to the Main Universe, but he (Buu Saga) couldn't sense things inside the ROSAT specifically cause it was a different dimension