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Reintroducting HTC to the macrocosm. (DBS)

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BestMGQScalerEver said:
I'm starting to think my interpretation is the more clear one even more now since the context around HTC and how the flow of time is weirder and at a different pace than how most normal space-times flow of time work makes it make more sense with the concept of time and space. The part of it being a subspace also has to refer to it being a subset of something and it would make more sense for it to be a subspace of the macrocosm being between dimensions of the macrocosm.
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Gotta agree
 
TiltedFN said:
can this be applied? theres one disagreement and this has been going on forever, just going in circles
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@Lonkitt @KingTempest
Executor_N0 said:
Someone asked me to say something, so a quick explanation here

Translating something from Japanese does not bring out the entire interpretation of the in-universe meaning of the text from the work itself, that isn't the case with English text, and neither is with Japanese text. It's true that due to how Japanese is written there's a lot of subtext that is hidden in the original text, but that doesn't remove variability of how each work will use each word and things that are common to be seen used in fictional works that aren't in released dictionaries.

For example, transcendence to time is sometimes written in Japanese as merely a description of something that can time travel, not literal transcendence over the concept of time. The same is very common with other words in English, so it's always important to look at the use in the series itself to the words and try to figure out the intent in what they want to say with what is written instead of thinking that "the translation is wrong".

For example, the "lacks the concept of time and space", for example, can be interpreted in a valid way as just being a reference to those places being detached from conventional space-time and working with different rules that are against the norm. Calling those places "lacking the concept of space-time" might not be true to the highest interpretation, but it's not impossible to see that is what they meant instead of trying to say that the translation is wrong or the book is wrong. For that reason, try to look for the interpretations that might fit those things together instead of picking just the understanding that will bring out contradictions. As I said before, the term "transcending time" or "going beyond time" is often used in Japanese as just meaning "time traveling" (Although that is also a bit more nuanced, I guess the example still holds up)

The same is true about the line that subspaces aren't in the "world depicted in Figure.1" refers to "they aren't a part of the Macrocosm, that is what is being depicted in Figure.1" or "They aren't part of the Macrocosm as depicted in Figure.1, but not necessarily not a part of it as a whole". I can see both being valid interpretations of the translated text, what will give the "true meaning" will be the context of the series and the interpretation, and not necessarily a deeper meaning inside the text.

Japanese, of course, is a very contextual language and there's a lot of nuance inside of it. But, that doesn't mean that knowing Japanese will bring out the exact correct interpretation of the text without knowing the context of the work itself, sometimes it's impossible to be 100% sure because the text never brings some information that will rule out the exact correct interpretation (There's a fun example with Pokémon where the true concept that Azelf ruled over was either willpower or rocks, with many Japanese fans thinking it was rocks until the kanji for it was revealed, that is something that can happen all the time).
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BestMGQScalerEver said:
I'm starting to think my interpretation is the more clear one even more now since the context around HTC and how the flow of time is weirder and at a different pace than how most normal space-times flow of time work makes it make more sense with the concept of time and space. The part of it being a subspace also has to refer to it being a subset of something and it would make more sense for it to be a subspace of the macrocosm being between dimensions of the macrocosm.
Click to expand...
Thoughts?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Is there a specific post or argument someone can direct me to?
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Executor_N0 said:
Someone asked me to say something, so a quick explanation here

Translating something from Japanese does not bring out the entire interpretation of the in-universe meaning of the text from the work itself, that isn't the case with English text, and neither is with Japanese text. It's true that due to how Japanese is written there's a lot of subtext that is hidden in the original text, but that doesn't remove variability of how each work will use each word and things that are common to be seen used in fictional works that aren't in released dictionaries.

For example, transcendence to time is sometimes written in Japanese as merely a description of something that can time travel, not literal transcendence over the concept of time. The same is very common with other words in English, so it's always important to look at the use in the series itself to the words and try to figure out the intent in what they want to say with what is written instead of thinking that "the translation is wrong".

For example, the "lacks the concept of time and space", for example, can be interpreted in a valid way as just being a reference to those places being detached from conventional space-time and working with different rules that are against the norm. Calling those places "lacking the concept of space-time" might not be true to the highest interpretation, but it's not impossible to see that is what they meant instead of trying to say that the translation is wrong or the book is wrong. For that reason, try to look for the interpretations that might fit those things together instead of picking just the understanding that will bring out contradictions. As I said before, the term "transcending time" or "going beyond time" is often used in Japanese as just meaning "time traveling" (Although that is also a bit more nuanced, I guess the example still holds up)

The same is true about the line that subspaces aren't in the "world depicted in Figure.1" refers to "they aren't a part of the Macrocosm, that is what is being depicted in Figure.1" or "They aren't part of the Macrocosm as depicted in Figure.1, but not necessarily not a part of it as a whole". I can see both being valid interpretations of the translated text, what will give the "true meaning" will be the context of the series and the interpretation, and not necessarily a deeper meaning inside the text.

Japanese, of course, is a very contextual language and there's a lot of nuance inside of it. But, that doesn't mean that knowing Japanese will bring out the exact correct interpretation of the text without knowing the context of the work itself, sometimes it's impossible to be 100% sure because the text never brings some information that will rule out the exact correct interpretation (There's a fun example with Pokémon where the true concept that Azelf ruled over was either willpower or rocks, with many Japanese fans thinking it was rocks until the kanji for it was revealed, that is something that can happen all the time).
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BestMGQScalerEver said:
Notes to any staff looking at this thread from my point of view.

1. HTC removal was based on terminology of it being outside of the universe and this CRT changed it is all the more reasons to add it back.

2. No concept of time or space is not a contradiction as it could easily also be referring to general notion of it being different than the other worlds which is demonstrated by their unique characteristics such as a different time flow of HTC. It's also a weak rebuttal to say that it is referring to the ontological concepts of time and space as the name is literally "Room of Spirit and Time" or "Hyperbolic Time Chamber" so the more likely option contextually is that time just works differently hence the different notion or idea of it.

3. While people are trying to argue that the guidebook says it's just completely outside of the macrocosm it's moreso referring to how it does not belong to any of the dimensions on the macrocosm map and is a place between those dimensions as a subspace (A subspace being a subset of something so it being a subset of the macrocosm also makes sense.). Even Executor who translated it says that it's referring to that contextually

4. If the guidebook statement ends up as a contradiction or invalid it should still end up being reintroduced due to terminology change.
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omegabronic said:
I need an evidence at all, since as executor explained, the interpretation of it not being in the macrocosm at all is as valid as that of it being there, we need more evidence since the translation of the guide alone is not enough since it can mean either way


It says that it isn't in the world depicted, unless more evidence of it being inside the macrocosm is presented, we can't really use that alone as evidence since it can mean either way


Which again can also mean other dimensions, the translation also support that it isn't in the macrocosm but between it and "other dimensions" more evidence is needed in my eyes


You didn't knew?
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BestMGQScalerEver said:
I'm starting to think my interpretation is the more clear one even more now since the context around HTC and how the flow of time is weirder and at a different pace than how most normal space-times flow of time work makes it make more sense with the concept of time and space. The part of it being a subspace also has to refer to it being a subset of something and it would make more sense for it to be a subspace of the macrocosm being between dimensions of the macrocosm.
Click to expand...
 
Does “doesn’t belong to any world depicted in fig 1” not just mean not part of the main areas (living world, afterlife, etc.) depicted in it? It’d should still be part of the macrocosm as a whole on the virtue of being between dimensions, and if it needs more context, the Sugoroku Space is literally shown to be between the Universe and Kaioshin Realm, both areas of the macrocosm.
 
Ok well I agree with Exec on how merely translated the Japanese doesn’t automatically remove any wiggle room for interpretation. Getting the raws isn’t a get out of interpretation debate free card. The translations themselves are fine as well.

Here are my thoughts as someone not all well-versed in DB powerscaling:

HTC not being part of the macrocosm seems to be in reference to it having a different spacetime than that shared by the macrocosm. To draw a comparison to a verse I know, this seems rather analogous to the Dangai within the Bleach universe, a subspace cut off from the normal time and space. In which case, regarding both interpretations being argued, I can see why HTC wouldn’t be in figure 1 for either of the two reasons. Either A) we aren’t showing it because it’s not a part of it or B) we aren’t showing it because it’s categorically distinct, both seem plausible to me. So, if there truly is nothing distinguishing the two interpretations other than semantics, I’d say this falls under equal interpretation. In which case, we would and should use possibly ratings (aka lesser interpretation, possibly higher interpretation) given both are equally valid. Now that being said, I do not know the context well, I don’t scale DB, so perhaps the evidence hard gears towards one interpretation over the other. But from what I’m seeing, y’all are arguing over interpretations rather than anything else.

That’s about as useful as I can be.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Ok well I agree with Exec on how merely translated the Japanese doesn’t automatically remove any wiggle room for interpretation. Getting the raws isn’t a get out of interpretation debate free card. The translations themselves are fine as well.

Here are my thoughts as someone not all well-versed in DB powerscaling:

HTC not being part of the macrocosm seems to be in reference to it having a different spacetime than that shared by the macrocosm. To draw a comparison to a verse I know, this seems rather analogous to the Dangai within the Bleach universe, a subspace cut off from the normal time and space. In which case, regarding both interpretations being argued, I can see why HTC wouldn’t be in figure 1 for either of the two reasons. Either A) we aren’t showing it because it’s not a part of it or B) we aren’t showing it because it’s categorically distinct, both seem plausible to me. So, if there truly is nothing distinguishing the two interpretations other than semantics, I’d say this falls under equal interpretation. In which case, we would and should use possibly ratings (aka lesser interpretation, possibly higher interpretation) given both are equally valid. Now that being said, I do not know the context well, I don’t scale DB, so perhaps the evidence hard gears towards one interpretation over the other. But from what I’m seeing, y’all are arguing over interpretations rather than anything else.

That’s about as useful as I can be.
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We accept macrocosm having seperate space-times as well if that helps. Thanks for your input.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Then I’d probably say it’s still within the macrocosm, just not depicted in figure 1. Again though, my DB knowledge is very limited
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For what it's worth, one of the two subspaces in question has some context given to it in the series itself, where there's a mini arc that happens because someone was travelling between the Universe and Kaioshin Realm (two of the dimensions of the Macrocosm) and dropped Goku, landing him in one of said subspaces. The series itself also calls it an area "between dimensions" "between spacetimes" just like the Chozenshu.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
@omegabronic is also missing the clear fact that it's not saying THEY lack the concepts of space and time, but rather that there is a subspace that lacks both, which contains both places.
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This is not what I'm proposing and Executor's translation says there are subspaces plural. Lets not argue about this please. Conflicting posts will only make this more confusing for staff who read.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
@omegabronic is also missing the clear fact that it's not saying THEY lack the concepts of space and time, but rather that there is a subspace that lacks both, which contains both places.
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この他、【図1】の世界のどこにも属さない「亜空間」が存在している。
Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1].

they are not in a subspace, they are called subspaces
 
Since this is a question here, there is of course plural in Japanese, it's just that just like with a lot of stuff in Japanese, it can be removed when context is clear and it's mostly not used as the border between plural and singular isn't often described in a lot of Japanese texts. For example, in this text the word is "stars" and we can be sure about that because the original text is "星々". The first is the kanji for stars, and the second is a particle to denote plural (It's actually a particle to repeat the previous term because by saying the same term twice, it gives directly the notion of plural).

So, it's not that there's no plural in Japanese. There are many ways to denote directly that there are more than a thing in the dialogue, it's just that very often it's not something that needs to be done. Of course, even if there wasn't a particle like that (The example I gave before wouldn't work well if it was a very big word for example when reading, like the subspace example).

In this case, since the text was talking about something in a generic way and it gave examples of two spaces existing, of course the way I understood it was a generic concept to describe such places, not a singular place that emcompasses those other spaces. If someone wants to make that the interpretation, they could make it so it's talking about a singular space. I'm not a DB expert, so I don't have an opinon in regards to that.
 
Executor_N0 said:
Since this is a question here, there is of course plural in Japanese, it's just that just like with a lot of stuff in Japanese, it can be removed when context is clear and it's mostly not used as the border between plural and singular isn't often described in a lot of Japanese texts. For example, in this text the word is "stars" and we can be sure about that because the original text is "星々". The first is the kanji for stars, and the second is a particle to denote plural (It's actually a particle to repeat the previous term because by saying the same term twice, it gives directly the notion of plural).

So, it's not that there's no plural in Japanese. There are many ways to denote directly that there are more than a thing in the dialogue, it's just that very often it's not something that needs to be done. Of course, even if there wasn't a particle like that (The example I gave before wouldn't work well if it was a very big word for example when reading, like the subspace example).

In this case, since the text was talking about something in a generic way and it gave examples of two spaces existing, of course the way I understood it was a generic concept to describe such places, not a singular place that emcompasses those other spaces. If someone wants to make that the interpretation, they could make it so it's talking about a singular space. I'm not a DB expert, so I don't have an opinon in regards to that.
Click to expand...
You are amazing at what you do bro
 
Executor_N0 said:
In this case, since the text was talking about something in a generic way and it gave examples of two spaces existing, of course the way I understood it was a generic concept to describe such places, not a singular place that emcompasses those other spaces. If someone wants to make that the interpretation, they could make it so it's talking about a singular space. I'm not a DB expert, so I don't have an opinon in regards to that.
Click to expand...
Yeah so it's basically an equal interpretation based on the kanji, and then the statement makes more sense if we take the latter
 
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