Spaces in Times Dragon Ball revision

[TiltedFN]

Point is......it isn't ever said that only these abilities can reach the realms, there is actually nothing supporting the notion of that being the case

Omega what are you talking about, its stated that teleportation is the only way to reach these realms, and now its retconned adding more ways to reach these realms, methods that have the same interdimensional properties, either you're not understanding what Im saying, or you're simply not reading it. I'm basing all of this off of whats been shown and stated like wtf?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Point is......it isn't ever said that only these abilities can reach the realms, there is actually nothing supporting the notion of that being the case

Do you have proof of physical travel being possible to reach these realms? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega, Im very tired of this back and forth, you're not making a lot of sense here at all, do you even know what you're trying to argue anymore? Let me ask you this, what methods have been used to travel to different dimensions? Lets go over it, Teleportation, like kai kai, and instant transmission. Next, we have whis warp ability, which is able to travel to other dimensions. Next, the cube, which is something specifically DESIGNED to go to different universes. Next?

Something being able to go to a place =/= being the only way to go to a place

you didn't prove that these methods are a nescesity, all you proved is that they can travel to the realms, not that they are the only way

Breaking spacetime barriers, like in the buu saga.

Which makes ones go from an area completely outside of the macrocosm back into said macrocosm, as such, it isn't relevant to the point at hand at all

Next? No physical travel? Weird isn't it?

not like anyone ever atempted to be proven false, so........this is a nothing point

That every method ever used to go to different dimensions have some unique interdimensional property huh? Now what does that tell us omega?

that a technique that can go to other dimensions can be used to travel inside a singulat dimension as well, which.......what a shocker

That the ONLY way to go to other dimensions are any of the methods I listed already, if you can't prove otherwise you LOSE this point.

Why would i try to disprove that interdimensional methods can be used to travel inside a singular dimension?

Which means the dimensions are spatialtemporally separated.

Not really as at max you would have only spatial separation and a temporal one

regardless, if what you were saying implied what you are thinking it does, doesn't really mattet when more evidence of the otherwise is still present in the OP, making the other end result more consistent regardless

Because I'm saying me agreeing with the retcon of ONLY teleportation being needed to get there, that still doesn't disprove only interdimensional travel methods being required.

It can't disprove something that wasn't even proved to begin with

But it does until proven otherwise.

It doesn't, nothing you said proved that one needs these type of techniques to reach the other realms

 

[TiltedFN]

I'm done with this topic, the dishonesty is actually so insane and tiring, literally only way characters have traveled to other realms is via interdimensional methods, yet I have to prove its the only way, when clearly it is when there's statements and zero showings of physical travel being possible. But aight, nothing is ever enough.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@omegabronic You'd need actual evidence of people physically traveling to these locations. The only way they've been reached is still via interdimensional travel, so you can't start claiming physical travel is possible without evidence

 

[Omegabronic]

Do you have proof of physical travel being possible to reach these realms? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Yes, the statements of them being physically connected via normal 3D distance in the OP

Regarldless, i can say the same thing with the opposite point, we are never directly said that it is or it isn't possible(if you ignore the guides that suggest that it is, which i am for this hypotetical) so we wouldn't have proof either way

Omega what are you talking about, its stated that teleportation is the only way to reach these realms, and now its retconned adding more ways to reach these realms

no, it retconed it being a nescesity in the first place, nothing about the "other things with similar properties" being the nescesity instead were ever said

methods that have the same interdimensional properties

This is never said, the "same interdimensial properties are nescesary, and not teleportation specifically" the stement talks exclusively about teleportation, if it is retconed, the nescesity statement equally is

Not that it was ever solid to begin with, the other statements about the realms' location and separation would still contradict it regardless of retcon or not

either you're not understanding what Im saying, or you're simply not reading it. I'm basing all of this off of whats been shown and stated like wtf?

The only statement you are using is directly contradicted by your other example, making your point that relies on it saying that teleportation is a nescesity crumble as without that, nothing saya that it is a nescesity

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yes, the statements of them being physically connected via normal 3D distance in the OP

Regarldless, i can say the same thing with the opposite point, we are never directly said that it is or it isn't possible(if you ignore the guides that suggest that it is, which i am for this hypotetical) so we wouldn't have proof either way

I mean for the Afterlife, this just means it's a barrier with a funky design. Doesn't make it not a dimensional barrier

And no, you can't say the same thing because we have proof of dimensional travel being used to reach these places while physical travel never is

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean for the Afterlife, this just means it's a barrier with a funky design. Doesn't make it not a dimensional barrier

It means that it is a physical barrier as it can be engraved upon, per our standards, if what separates both places is a physical barrier then it doesn't qulify as another space time or dimension

Sides that, the Kaioshin realm is more explicit in what separates it from the rest, and is still a physical thing

And no, you can't say the same thing because we have proof of dimensional travel being used to reach these places while physical travel never is

It being used to travel to these places =/= it is the only way one can travel to these places

Just as it alone doesn't prove physical connection, it also doesn't prove dimensional separation

 

[CloverDragon03]

It means that it is a physical barrier as it can be engraved upon, per our standards, if what separates both places is a physical barrier then it doesn't qulify as another space time or dimension

Sides that, the Kaioshin realm is more explicit in what separates it from the rest, and is still a physical thing

"Engraved" also means it just has the design on it, which doesn't necessarily mean someone cut into it. It could've just been a result of the barrier's formation. This is too speculative

Also your Kaioshin Realm link is dead

It being used to travel to these places =/= it is the only way one can travel to these places

Just as it alone doesn't prove physical connection, it also doesn't prove dimensional separation

You'd need to prove physical travel, I don't need some uber specific statement. If you claim there is a contradiction, prove it instead of shifting it onto me

 

[Kroneii1]

I still don't understand what the point is of bringing to the table the fact that whis can travel between realms via warp.

 

[Hasty12345]

can someone explain why teleportation is being used to imply interdimensional travel?


if I’m in prison and I teleport out of my cell, outside the prison isn’t another spacetime… if the afterlife and living world are separated by a big wall that’s only SSG tiers can break by conventional means, getting their by teleportation doesn’t prove it’s a different anything, it proves the teleportation can go past a wall which in and of itself is expected of the ability.

 

[Omegabronic]

"Engraved" also means it just has the design on it, which doesn't necessarily mean someone cut into it. It could've just been a result of the barrier's formation. This is too speculative

No, engraved means that someone cutted that in, that is literally what "engraved" means, it needs to be physical to be able to be engraved upon, it being said to be close to Earth and the hermatically seal(also requires it to be physical) are also things poiting to it

Besides, the actual dimensiomal barriers have no design to speak of, they are invisible, we can see this everytime they appear in verse

Also your Kaioshin Realm link is dead

Noted, will fix it

You'd need to prove physical travel, I don't need some uber specific statement. If you claim there is a contradiction, prove it instead of shifting it onto me

The contradiction in question is teleportation being a nescecity, the other 3D distance evidence in the OP are what you would be looking for as far as "contradictions to spatial separation" go

Even then, if i were to concede on spatial separation via the teleportation statement, we still wouldn't have spatial temporal separation via the point 2 in the OP

 

[KingTempest]

This ki sensing thing literally doesn't matter, we know jiren was able to sense hit when he was in another dimension entirely, and jiren can sense ki obviously. Goku not being able to sense ki in the rosat is not a defeater to the argument. We're going off of the presumption that all dimensions have the same nature, there are characters that can sense ki across dimensions, like jiren for example, even goku can, across the afterlife, and the kaioshin realm. But it doesn't mean he can for the rosat, especially sense its said to be shut off entirely. What this means is that it also hinders their capability to sense ki from other dimensions, which goku actually clarifies in that same scan, which I repeat, is NOT a defeater for the other realms being separated spacetimes, its not even close actually. Unless we're going to argue that hits dimension is not a separate spacetime now? Which is obviously baseless, so this argument has absolutely nothing to stand on. As for the old kai statement, when he says they are fighting in a different dimension, why does this matter? Goku obviously thought they were fighting in the living realm, so old kai saying they are fighting in another dimension is just him describing where they are, and since goku can sense ki from the kaioshin realm, naturally he would be confused as to why he cannot, and it clicks for him because goku KNOWS that ki can't be sensed from the rosat. Also old kai then clarifies that this dimension is the dimension of time (the rosat) which is why energy cant be sensed there. A nothing argument yet again. As for omegas argument, maybe I should have worded it better so you can understand it, but the whole point is that teleportation can travel interdimensional distances, and yes whis cannot teleport, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter, because whis has shown interdimensional travel, just like instant transmission, but slower. So ultimately we arrive at the conclusion that these realms require interdimensional techniques and methods to get to them, like whis' warp, or the kais and gokus teleportation techniques. Certain dimensions have limitations, we CANNOT assume that every dimension is the same. Also for the telepathy scan, we aren't sure if it is a ki based ability or not, saying its a natural ability doesn't disprove it from using ki, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if it does or doesn't.

Bro I don't care

I'm talking about Goku in specific. Son Goku. The father of Gohan. Not Piccolo, not Jiren, Goku.

Goku in Z had a limitation to where he couldn't sense in other dimensions. He is able to sense people in the afterlife, implying it's not in a temporally separate dimension.

Idc about who can do what if it ain't Goku.

Goku couldn't sense in there and they said "it's cause it's another dimension", not "cause it's the ROSAT"

 

[TiltedFN]

Bro I don't care

I'm talking about Goku in specific. Son Goku. The father of Gohan. Not Piccolo, not Jiren, Goku.

Goku in Z had a limitation to where he couldn't sense in other dimensions. He is able to sense people in the afterlife, implying it's not in a temporally separate dimension.

Idc about who can do what if it ain't Goku.

Goku couldn't sense in there and they said "it's cause it's another dimension", not "cause it's the ROSAT"

You don't care? Ight lmao. And I already explained this, which omega agreed with me btw. First of all, goku states that the rosat is completely isolated from the outside world, he then follows up with not being able to sense ki. And old kai clarifies that he's just talking about the dimension of time, which in this case is the rosat. It literally just means the rosat has special properties which blocks out ki sensing, that's just the nature of the time chamber, it doesn't mean anything for the other realms not being spatialtemporally separate.

 

[KingTempest]

You don't care? Ight lmao. And I already explained this, which omega agreed with me btw. First of all, goku states that the rosat is completely isolated from the outside world, he then follows up with not being able to sense ki. And old kai clarifies that he's just talking about the dimension of time, which in this case is the rosat. It literally just means the rosat has special properties which blocks out ki sensing, that's just the nature of the time chamber, it doesn't mean anything for spatialtemporal separation.

Old kai didn't know what the ROSAT was. All he said was "they're in another dimension".

When Goku said he couldn't sense their Ki, he didn't say "they're in a place which blocks off Ki". He said "they're in another dimension"

It can be a room which isolates them from the outside world... BECAUSE IT'S A DIFFERENT DIMENSION

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

That's one way to ignore statements, someone should teach me how to do that ngl.

 

[Chariot190]

So in other words you are extrapolating information with no actual evidence to back it up.

No it's called following the basic premise of the arc given I just went and read the whole thing just to double check.
Which thanks for that, sure love having to read 20+ chapters just to see if what they said was what they meant

You are just taking statements of the 'universe' and extending that to the entire macrocosm. Even though you have no actual examples of characters ever referring to the entire macrocosm.

Whis, Goku and Vegeta every time were doing literally that? And even AFTER Freeza reveals the secret tech, are like "yo damn so was HE the strongest in Uni (7)?" (we know it's 7 because Goku callsback to the fish).

They didn't backpedal and go "huh **** guess it's just the mortal realm because he was in the ROSAT which is in uni 7 apparently". They didn't change how they said, and Whis just reaffirms it.

Hell, the characters you quote like the Heeters? There is zero indication they are even aware of the structure of the macrocosm.

Do you not know what exposition is? The characters are but a way to tell us shit.
They say all the universe, because that's the intent. Also nice job ignoring the mfs who actually do know about stuff like that.

Goku knows. Vegeta knows. Whis knows. The fish who straight up says universe SEVEN IE THE WHOLE OF IT. FREEZA knows. The dragon granting the wish knows. The namekian elder who literally goes


"What the whole universe!".

The intent is so blatant that the fact I'm even having to argue this is stupid.

Is there any indication of them ever referring to the Afterlife as an actual space or the Kaioshin Realm or anywhere else? No?

Pretty blatantly actually.

The arc opens with explicit indication, and Goku and Vegeta explicitly mean this not only before, but even after Freeza shows up when they say strongest in uni. Unless Universe 7 ain't those too? In which case we downgrading anyway.

Then what do you think they mean by the 'whole universe'? Do you think Granolah was thinking of the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm? Of course not.

Doesn't need to, ignoring the fact his intent is to just flatout be the strongest mf, the dragon though granting the wish? The whole premise of the arc? The ten fucktillion yappings? That, on the other hand, well they know.

The dragon is told universe, he knows, he grants it. What Gran was thinking doesn't even matter, the dragon can't read minds, hell it's why Shenron sometimes double checks what the Z squad wants or to clarify.

Even the wording used by Freeza would be vague given he says "I wasn't in THIS universe" when he's inside the Living World.

He knows what the universe entails. Frieza is the one mf there who you can't use that against.

Vague? "Yeah I wasnt in this universe so i dont count lmao" isn't vague, it's super explicit.

Frieza knows what the universe is, he's been to hell, the afterlife, he knows about Other World. He knows about all the universes, he knows what defines a universe, and he even knows about subspaces like world of the void, he knows EVERYTHING just about.

But yeah sure Frieza is a dumbass I guess who doesn't mean what he said because everyone just loves to cherry pick and ignore basic wording because everything has to have some secret meaning

Or how about the part where Freeza is stated to rule over 70% of the universe? Does that suddenly include the Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife?

https://imgur.com/a/SZQQu08

Yuh huh.

What an extreme false equivalence that has fuckall to do with the context, the manga establishes what "strongest in the universe" entails, not the same as them yapping about actual space real estate.

And why specify the gods? Really now? I already explained why. It's because Beerus and Whis are the ONLY gods in Universe 7 stronger than Granolah at the time of his wish. There are no other gods that the dragon could possibly be talking about and where do those gods exist? Ah right, the Living World.

That isn't stated or implied anywhere. Whis ain't even a God pretty sure, so the plural Gods, sure as hell wasn't talking about him.

And no? Goddamn do I hate this mental gymnastic shit, dude, for one complaining about me extrapolating, literally everything you've said is nothing but extrapolation. I don't want your explanation, I want the actual manga to say it.

They don't at ANY POINT explain that's why, and why would it be? You think if Beerus was in Other World at that exact moment he would've said nothing? That was rhetorical, it doesn't matter because they never clarify.

I don't have to prove anything.

"Hey the whole universe"
"Nuh uh it's only the living world and not the whole universe because I said so".

No dog, you do. They say one thing, you're arguing "no it means this actually", prove it.

YOU are making a claim without any actual evidence. YOU have to demonstrate that your claim has any real bearing on this argument. Trying to shift the responsibility onto me when it's YOUR argument trying to argue for a change to the cosmology is utterly baffling.

Yeah, I made a claim. I provided evidence, which, you've gone and ignored so good job on that, tempted to get this moved to staff only if we're already at the point any actual evidence is ignored and is met whatever the hell this reply was.

And what's with the attitude? Did I somehow offend you? If so I apologise. Something I said must have been worded too roughly.

this whole thread is offensive

Regardless of any of this, I want to focus on my game and I don't think this revision is going to pass so I'm leaving this to everyone else to deal with.

I'm going to make this super blunt so you can understand.



At no point, ANYWHERE do they say mortal world, living world, etc. You're claiming this, my claim is "universe means universe, especially when half the mfs know about other world and the whole ass arc is based on a line talking about the universe 7, that lil number at the end means all, not just a bit, upon which multiple dudes clarify back to that specific usage". So, you prove it, easy as.

In Goku, Vegeta, Whis' case, they hard confirmed talking about Universe 7, as a whole, because the Fish was talking about Universe 7. As they're talking about this, the manga goes out of its way to show Gran getting his wish, and Whis going "huh", as if basic narrative context doesn't exist. That's one example btw, it ain't the only one.

Frieza knows about all this shit, yet, still says what he says, "this universe", not "this dimension", "the living world", "cosmos", whatever the hell.
Given the narrative makes it blatant "the universe" means Uni 7 in the context of all this yapping, and he knows what the universe is now, why assume different here beyond "it doesn't align with my agenda"?

Gran and bro both make a wish to the strongest in the universe, that's it, the only caveat we're given is no gods, they don't specify why btw, so whatever explanation you're giving is conjecture at best, and wouldn't be true anyway given Whis is an angel unlike Beerus or the Kais, so "Gods" already out the window.
The dragon also knows full well other world and stuff exists too, why would the dragon halfass when it's shown going out of its way to give him options, aka, grant his wish? Is the dragon an asshole? If Goku and Vegeta in other world would the dragon just go "hmm ya said universe, and i know what that means but eh **** you", no, the dude granting the wish knows what universe means.

The fuckass fish says

https://imgur.com/a/jNB79cf

Universe 7, from that point on, he says the universe with adding on the 7. Does that mean he suddenly backpedaled and was talking about the living world? No, the arc, at the very start defines what "the strongest in the universe" means, it means the strongest in Universe 7, and at the end of the arc the bookend it again.
Why the hell do they need to say it everytime? We know what the manga means when they say it? It clarified twice? 4 times if ya count others? Hell tempted to say 5 given Whis wouldn't say universe and not mean all of it.
Why are we ignoring the very premise of the arc suddenly? The premise starts off "The strongest dude in universe 7?" and then they play strongest hot potato

Which, is to say, "there's no indi-", yeah no, there is, lots of it. The strongest in the universe means Universe 7 as a whole based on at least 4 different statements + lack of arbitrary limitation, ie, a bunch of implications and in some cases hard confirmation, yet none saying mortal world.
Freeza was exempt despite the fact the manga makes it evident the universe means uni 7 and the whole ass uni, he says it's because ROSAT is not in this uni.
Ergo, ROSAT isn't apart of Uni 7.

Your turn, where the hell do they specify living world only when talking about "the whole universe"?

Goddamn weird that if this was any other time they said uni, ya'll would be arguing it means all of it, in fact I can think of at least 3 feats/statements this thought process would hit

The prophecy for Oracle Fish is actually stated not to be referring to Granolah.

Of course not. And? What matters is if "strongest in the universe", ie, what universe is defined as in context, is talking about Universe 7, not the mortal realm.
And guess what? It is.

Whis also states it’s not Frieza and it was probably someone who emerged recently so when Oracle fish’s prophecy is stated near Granolah wanting to become the strongest it’s just to make you think that but it’s stated otherwise later within the arc and there’s no proof that it reached the other realms besides the living realm.

Surely you're not being this obtuse on purpose?
Whis states it might be, or might not be, he isn't sure, he doesn't say "no it isnt him lol".
Strongest in the UNIVERSE. The arc specifies what that entails 4 times.
There doesn't need to be proof it extended beyond the mortal realm, it's talking about the whole ass universe? It's the other way around, why the hell would they clarify what Universe entails, have half the cast know what the universe is, have a magic dragon that knows about all this grant the wish, and it be not the universe as hammered in over the past decade?

Yeah it's made to make you THINK it's Gran, and then Gas, but that doesn't mean the scope of what universe meant changed, just that he wasn't the strongest in the universe, not "universe but only mortal realm lmao".
Same with Freeza, in fact that scan is explicitly talking about universe as defined by Uni 7 as they call back to the fish.

But cool, gonna love going through the 50 uni statements that have exponentially less evidence to entail the "macrocosm" and have them tossed out because "no proof they meant beyond the mortal realm", because DB just loves its double standard nitpicking

Isnt that like a 25yo scan?

Can you show the actual manga saying that?

 

[BOEGVELD]

not really since that contradicts the earlier statements about the Afterlife and the physical barrier between them + the other situations that happened in Super as detailed in the OP

Your entire argument relies on arguing semantics, though. "Hermetically" also means "in a way that is insulated or protected from outside influences", and "engrave" also means "cut or carve a text or design on", which isn't often used to refer to dimensions, but neither contradict there being dimensional barriers. Engraved is also a verb, which means someone's responsible for doing this, but it seems obvious that it's simply a reference to the drawing of the map.

Was it ever rejected for simply referring to Other World as another dimension? Can't seem to find it.

that isn't true, being separate from one while another unrelated realm is another dimension doesn't mean that the other realm is another dimension

Of course it does. Or, at least, it's apart of another dimension that is not the Demon Realm, but within the Living World.

"cosmos" is vague in the way it is used to describe the Afterlife

It's verbatim called "Cosmos" numerous times. The word is majoritarily used to refer to a universe, and, when discussing cosmology, is used to refer to a spacetime continuum. What exactly is vague about it?

 

[Chariot190]

It's verbatim called "Cosmos" numerous times. The word is majoritarily used to refer to a universe, and, when discussing cosmology, is used to refer to a spacetime continuum. What exactly is vague about it?

It can also just mean space and a bunch of other stuff.
And not how it works. You don't go "they said cosmos, cosmos could mean universe, universe could be a spacetime continuum, so cosmos is a spacetime continuum". That isn't what's actually said at any point.

 

[BOEGVELD]

And not how it works. You don't go "they said cosmos, cosmos could mean universe, universe could be a spacetime continuum, so cosmos is a spacetime continuum". That isn't what's actually said at any point.

Which is not what I said, either. I said the term cosmos means universe and is used to refer to a spacetime continuum in Cosmology.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I mean, heck, Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus

No, he ran from King Kai's planet to King Yemma, with Kami teleporting him from King Yemma's place to Earth, and THEN he used flying Nimbus to get to the saiyans

 

[Chariot190]

Which is not what I said, either. I said the term cosmos means universe

Except it doesn't? In the context of DBZ it means mortal world.

and is used to refer to a spacetime continuum in Cosmology.

They dont say "btw the cosmos, is a spacetime continuum", so no, it isnt.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No it's called following the basic premise of the arc given I just went and read the whole thing just to double check.
Which thanks for that, sure love having to read 20+ chapters just to see if what they said was what they meant

Yes, I also read the entire arc. Multiple times infact. They never specify the wish and prophecy as the same thing and it's left ambiguous if Freeza is even the one being referred to.

Whis, Goku and Vegeta every time were doing literally that? And even AFTER Freeza reveals the secret tech, are like "yo damn so was HE the strongest in Uni (7)?" (we know it's 7 because Goku callsback to the fish).

Oracle Fish prophecy =/= Granolah and Gas's wish. The prophecy being about Granolah or Gas was setup to be a red herring. And Freeza being the strongest is him coming back to the living world after spending time in the HTC. So either he became the 'strongest' while in the HTC or he became the 'strongest' by entering the living world. And no, Goku and Vegeta thinking Granolah, Gas and Freeza are all the ones the prophecy refers to is meaningless. Because all of those characters far surpassed them in that arc. From their perspective any of them could qualify for the prophecy. Because the wish (which isn't the prophecy) made the former two that strong.

Hell, if the wish applied to the entire macrocosm then why wouldn't Granolah be the one in the prophecy? He WAS the strongest. Why not Gas? He WAS the strongest. Why does Whis leave it ambiguous? He IS the strongest. Perhaps because the prophecy and wish aren't the same and none of them are truly the one in the prophecy? That there could be someone else in the macrocosm stronger than any of them? For example, Broly when he learns to fully control his power could be a fine candidate for that.

So once again one option means the HTC isn't part of the macrocosm while the other option would. And we objectively have no clue which one it means. And even that requires us to interpret the dragon's wish to include the entire macrocosm rather than just the living world.

Do you not know what exposition is? The characters are but a way to tell us shit.

Do you know what a 'red herring' is? Once again, the entire plot was setup to make it LOOK like Granolah was the one in the prophecy. Then Gas showed up. Then Freeza showed up. And even then it's left ambiguous by Whis if Freeza really was the one in the prophecy.

Goku knows. Vegeta knows. Whis knows. The fish who straight up says universe SEVEN IE THE WHOLE OF IT. FREEZA knows. The dragon granting the wish knows. The namekian elder who literally goes

Goku, Vegeta, Whis and the Oracle Fish are referring to the prophecy. Granolah, Elec and Gas are referring to a wish they made. And that wish was to be the strongest in the 'universe'. What do they mean by that? Well, these mortals never touched the rest of the macrocosm so when they made the wish they clearly meant the living world.

Eternal Dragons have never lied or made things up in their wishes. They have always made wishes with the intentions of the subject in mind. So when Granolah and Elec wish to be the strongest in the universe what do you think they meant and the dragon would understand they meant?

And why are you citing Monaito? When is it shown that he knows about the rest of the macrocosm? I'll grant that the Namekians are stated to come from 'another realm' but we have no concept of what that really means or how far that extends. So you are taking the phrase 'the whole universe' and conflating it with the entire macrocosm when there is no real indication that he knows anything beyond the living world and even then it has the same issue as every other usage of the term. When you want to refer to the 'entire universe' and that's in reference to the scope of the living world, how would you describe it? You would say the 'whole universe'. Because the living world is called the universe repeatedly by the people living there.

The dragon is told universe, he knows, he grants it. What Gran was thinking doesn't even matter, the dragon can't read minds, hell it's why Shenron sometimes double checks what the Z squad wants or to clarify.

None of the dragons have ever been shown to extrapolate from the desires of the summoner. When Granolah, a mortal man, asks to be the 'strongest in the universe' the dragon is more likely to interpret that as the living world.

You have no concrete evidence to support otherwise. Just mere interpretation conflating two completely different subjects (a prophecy and a pair of red herrings from wishes that were made).

Vague? "Yeah I wasnt in this universe so i dont count lmao" isn't vague, it's super explicit.

He never says 'macrocosm' or anything along those lines. Just 'universe'. How would you refer to being inside of the universe if you didn't mean the Afterlife, Kaioshin Realm or otherwise? Exactly. There is no term for it besides simply 'the universe'.

How do you expect these characters to communicate this information besides the term 'universe'? Once again, this is mere interpretation from you with no actual objective information to illustrate your point.

But yeah sure Frieza is a dumbass I guess who doesn't mean what he said because everyone just loves to cherry pick and ignore basic wording because everything has to have some secret meaning

Like you? Extrapolating the ENTIRE MACROCOSM from the term 'universe' used by a galactic tyrant that rules over the universe and is talking about the universe. Once again, how do you actually know when characters are just referring to the universe and not the rest of the macrocosm? Where is the distinction made?

You would presumably try to argue 'context' but in 'context' Freeza is in the living universe when he says 'this universe'. So even in 'context' your interpretation is still ambiguous at best.

That isn't stated or implied anywhere. Whis ain't even a God pretty sure, so the plural Gods, sure as hell wasn't talking about him.

Given they inherently have God Ki and are part of a lineage of the most powerful fighter in the multiverse I would think that they are deties but let's say they aren't. Who else is the dragon referring to besides Beerus? Who is stronger than Granolah after his wish? In ALL Of the macrocosm? RIght. No one. We have never heard of a singular deity of that level of power besides Beerus. And given the fact that Beerus lives entirely in the living world, who is to say that other gods don't exist?

Oh wait, aren't planetary guardians officially dubbed 'gods' such as Kami and Dende? In which case the condition for plural 'gods' existing in the living world is established. If so then this point is moot.

And no? Goddamn do I hate this mental gymnastic shit, dude, for one complaining about me extrapolating, literally everything you've said is nothing but extrapolation. I don't want your explanation, I want the actual manga to say it.

Extrapolation? Where? All I've ever said is that you need more concrete evidence because all of this is ambiguous at best. You are the one extrapolating all of this information. I am the one stating that extrapolation is not sufficient.

They don't at ANY POINT explain that's why, and why would it be? You think if Beerus was in Other World at that exact moment he would've said nothing? That was rhetorical, it doesn't matter because they never clarify.

Well given the premise is that the dragon didn't factor Freeza into the wish because he wasn't inside of the universe and the fact that the Afterlife is currently accepted as a different spacetime which would be outside of the universe (living world)...yes. That's exactly what would happen.

No dog, you do. They say one thing, you're arguing "no it means this actually", prove it.

Yeah, I made a claim. I provided evidence, which, you've gone and ignored so good job on that, tempted to get this moved to staff only if we're already at the point any actual evidence is ignored and is met whatever the hell this reply was.

You have posted absolutely nothing of value in this response. It's all just extrapolation and conflating a divine prophecy with a red herring wish made by mortals with mortal knowledge of the mortal cosmos. Calling this 'evidence' is nonsensical.

Your turn, where the hell do they specify living world only when talking about "the whole universe"?

All of that text to make the exact same argument as the rest of your post. And you still fail to distinguish between the Oracle Fish's divine prophecy and what is explicitly red herrings in Granolah and Gas with their wishes. When even Freeza being the prophesised 'strongest in Universe 7' is left ambiguous by Whis.

Goddamn weird that if this was any other time they said uni, ya'll would be arguing it means all of it, in fact I can think of at least 3 feats/statements this thought process would hit

No? I've read this arc multiple times and I have never interpreted the universe lines by the Heeters, Granolah or even Freeza in that way. The former two have no concept of the macrocosm and the latter only specifies 'this' universe and is known for ruling over the universe as a galactic tyrant and land shark. When Freeza says 'this universe' I'm going to interpret it as the universe he is physically in and rules over.

And no, arguing that the macrocosm constitutes as the 'universe' doesn't challenge that interpretation. Because, once again, what term would these characters use to distinguish between the 'universe' (living world) and 'universe' (macrocosm)? "Universe 7'. A term that Freeza didn't use here.

Surely you're not being this obtuse on purpose?
Whis states it might be, or might not be, he isn't sure, he doesn't say "no it isnt him lol".
Strongest in the UNIVERSE. The arc specifies what that entails 4 times.

And if the HTC were part of Universe 7 then Freeza would qualify regardless. The argument is whether or not the wishes and prophecy can be conflated.

There doesn't need to be proof it extended beyond the mortal realm, it's talking about the whole ass universe? It's the other way around, why the hell would they clarify what Universe entails, have half the cast know what the universe is, have a magic dragon that knows about all this grant the wish, and it be not the universe as hammered in over the past decade?

Yes. You do need proof. Because we get into debates like this over whether or not realms (such as the HTC) constitute as part of the macrocosm when characters talk about the universe and those realms are excluded. If the characters never concretely state whether or not the wish pertained to simply the living world (which is called the universe repeatedly) or the macrocosm (which is usually distinguished as the whole term 'Universe 7') then it is ambiguous.

Yeah it's made to make you THINK it's Gran, and then Gas, but that doesn't mean the scope of what universe meant changed, just that he wasn't the strongest in the universe, not "universe but only mortal realm lmao".

Yes...except this is simply your interpretation of the wish.

Same with Freeza, in fact that scan is explicitly talking about universe as defined by Uni 7 as they call back to the fish.

Except it isn't really. Given Whis himself leaves it in doubt whether or not the prophecy actually meant him.

But cool, gonna love going through the 50 uni statements that have exponentially less evidence to entail the "macrocosm" and have them tossed out because "no proof they meant beyond the mortal realm", because DB just loves its double standard nitpicking

'Double standard nitpicking'? Over what? Asking for hard evidence for your interpretation? Oh wait I forgot I'm 'obtuse' and you implied I am being 'disingenuous'. Of course. Classy.

TL;DR FOR PEOPLE WITH LIVES

• Oracle Fish Prophecy =/= Granolah/Elec's wish
• Dragons have always granted wishes with the intentions of the summoner in mind. So when mortals (Granolah, Elec) wish to be the 'strongest in the universe' the dragon would logically interpret that as the living realm that they live in. As that is how the term is used by mortals.
• 'universe' is a terminology that can apply to the living world alone and has been used that way repeatedly in the past
• Planetary Guardians are referred to as 'gods' (See Kami, See Dende) and would qualify for the dragon's exemption of gods (plural)
• Freeza never explicitly refers to the entire macrocosm. He simply states 'this universe' when the Living World is called the 'universe' by the mortals that live in it
• Whis himself leaves it ambiguous if the prophecy even refers to Freeza
• Pretty much everything about this argument ultimately doesn't work as conclusive evidence against the HTC being part of the macrocosm because the language used by the characters is ambiguous, the prophecy explicitly never referred to the wishes granted and there is zero evidence that the dragon conflated 'universe' to 'macrocosm' with a mortal's wish of 'the universe' which is a term that has been used to simply refer to the 'living world' numerous times

This argument is going nowhere now. Because we're arguing over the semantics of the term 'universe' and how it can either broadly apply to the macrocosm or the living world as well as inconclusive evidence of how the dragon interpreted Granolah and Elec's wish. I don't speak Japanese so maybe there is some sort of distinction between the 'entire macrocosm' and the 'living world' made rather than the English release's generic 'universe'. If so, that would immediately clarify everything.

If something like that doesn't exist then this back-and-forth is moot. It's all just interpretations of mostly ambiguous statements with no factual argumentation. As such unless new evidence is provided I feel it's best not to bloat this thread any further on the topic. The staff team simply have to pick which side they think is more reasonable here.

 

[Omegabronic]

Your entire argument relies on arguing semantics, though. "Hermetically" also means "in a way that is insulated or protected from outside influences"

Can't find that definition in the dictionary, the closest would "in a way that ia closed and difficult to be a part of" when regarding to a thing being excluded socially, which when the definition is of a barrier separating stuff and uses the "sealing" verbatim like the actual meaning uses.......well, it is kind of obvious which meaning is then being used

, and "engrave" also means "cut or carve a text or design on", which isn't often used to refer to dimensions, but neither contradict there being dimensional barriers.

It does when that same "engraved upon" barrier is said to actually be the thing separating the afterlife from the living world + the other examples and statements hinting at it being close to Earth

Engraved is also a verb, which means someone's responsible for doing this, but it seems obvious that it's simply a reference to the drawing of the map.

Considering that we don't know who made the universe at all, and thus can'f say if someone wouldn't be capable of engraving on said barrier.......eh

THe statement never references the map, and if you want to use it, well too bad, ir just hard blocks any of the realms from being other space times given the physical conection the map gives them......so pick your poison

Was it ever rejected for simply referring to Other World as another dimension? Can't seem to find it.

It being an higher, transcendental dimension was, else Uni in DB would be Low 1-C by now

Of course it does. Or, at least, it's apart of another dimension that is not the Demon Realm, but within the Living World.

Ignoring the weirdness of the statement as i pointed out

A realm being another dimension Doesn't all of then are, specially when the others have clear statements suggesting otherwise

 

[LordDestroit10K]

map

That statement is describing literally the macrocosm map:



You can see the “strange design engraved in the barrier” there, and here also:



And well, you said before that is wrong to use DB map… so, using the map description to conclude that they are not dimensional walls… ah

 

[Omegabronic]

That statement is describing literally the macrocosm map:


You can see the “strange design engraved in the barrier” there, and here also:



And well, you said before that is wrong to use DB map… so, using the map description to conclude that they are not dimensional walls… ah

the map certainly adheres to the descriptions of the realms given in the guidebooks, no shocker given that the map is an illustration based around how they are described, but the statements in question having nothing even suggesting they are basing their descriptions on the map rather than the other way around

also weren't you one of the people who voted for using the Map to make afterlife 100% universal in size in the last thread? as well as using it to say how the Super Shenron scene was a wrong description? weird how now you don't want to use it, wonder what is the difference

 

[LordDestroit10K]

the map certainly adheres to the descriptions of the realms given in the guidebooks, no shocker given that the map is an illustration based around how they are described, but the statements in question having nothing even suggesting they are basing their descriptions on the map rather than the other way around

also weren't you one of the people who voted for using the Map to make afterlife 100% universal in size in the last thread? as well as using it to say how the Super Shenron scene was a wrong description? weird how now you don't want to use it, wonder what is the difference

So you concede my point that that description is based on the design of the macrocosm. And the proof is that the map appears for the first time in full on Daizenshuu 4, and there you can see the strange design engraved in the barriers:



And then, on Daizenshuu 7, that's when the description of the universe is given. That is, the design of the map must have appeared first in Daizenshuu 4, so that that description is given later in Daizenshuu 7, implying that they are directly related. Another proof is that the description of Daizenshuu 7 takes you directly to Daizenshuu 4, specifically to page 72



THAT IS THE SAME PAGE WHERE THE DRAWING OF THE MACROCOSM APPEARS!

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I haven't been following this thread as closely as I'd hoped, but I loosely noticed there was some debate over if "Universe 7" refers to the macrocosm as a whole or the Living World by default.

Just a reminder: it was explicitly accepted for this site's Dragon Ball semantics standards back in this thread that the terms "Universe" and "Universe 7" should refer only to the Living World by default.

 

[TiltedFN]

the map certainly adheres to the descriptions of the realms given in the guidebooks, no shocker given that the map is an illustration based around how they are described, but the statements in question having nothing even suggesting they are basing their descriptions on the map rather than the other way around

also weren't you one of the people who voted for using the Map to make afterlife 100% universal in size in the last thread? as well as using it to say how the Super Shenron scene was a wrong description? weird how now you don't want to use it, wonder what is the difference

Toriyama made this map AFTER he finished drawing the series, and then the guidebooks expanded on his map and the cosmos, some of them describe the actual universe, but sometimes they will literally just describe whats on the map toriyama drew, why do you think its word for word for how the map is drawn?

I think it’s something I came up with so both I and the readers would be able to easily grasp it. The big ball in the center is the world known as “this world” and “the afterlife”, and the one who watches over it from outside is Kaiōshin.

This complete map was originally background information that I drew at the request of the anime people, but I took this opportunity to add the Kaiōshin World, which was not included in the map before, to complete it. In truth, this complete world map is something I made after I finished drawing the story, to make everything consistent. (laughs)

Those are direct quotes from toriyama, he literally just says this map was made to wrap our heads around everything and get a general idea what the worlds are like. But even toriyama, through his own words pretty much tells us its just an artistic choice, clearly. There are no opaqe walls with a strange design that blocks the living world, there are actual spatialtemporal barriers that separate everything. Those descriptions aren't accurate to how they are actually portrayed by toriyama, and the guidebooks, games like kakarot, super, etc. We been know that the macrocosm map isnt 100 percent literal, yet you're still using it to try to say the entire cosmology is connected and just floating around in the main universe. Which is just blatantly wrong, your whole crt is pretty based off of nothing. And no, the globe does in fact NOT contradict the macrocosms being 2-C. They can still be made up of multiple spacetimes bruh, and they are shown to multiple times, going back to the interdimensional separation conversation. So idk why you're saying it can't be used, we never had a problem using it before. All the "contradictions" you say exist, don't actually exist. Bubble universe are things used in fiction to represent universes sitting in a higher dimensional space all the time, does that contradict them being spacetimes? Of course not, we know that the universes don't connect because a neutral dimension is used to separate them completely, they don't connect, no matter how much you nitpick every single frame of the anime to try and convince us they do. We see the characters between the universes, with millions of galaxies of separation and we STILL don't see them until we zoom out extremely far into the neutral space. Light shining across the two universes doesn't matter? In a neutral space where the universes are held on a 5th axis, interaction with universes can act extremely differently, it doesn't debunk anything. The realms can still not be seen, but be different dimensions still apart of the macrocosm. Your entire thread was based off of using a visual that toriyama made that was not 100 percent literal to debunk the cosmology.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I haven't been following this thread as closely as I'd hoped, but I loosely noticed there was some debate over if "Universe 7" refers to the macrocosm as a whole or the Living World by default.

Just a reminder: it was explicitly accepted for this site's Dragon Ball semantics standards back in this thread that the terms "Universe" and "Universe 7" should refer only to the Living World by default.

So "HTC is outside the macrocosm" arguments go out of the window? I see.

 

[Chariot190]

Just a reminder: it was explicitly accepted for this site's Dragon Ball semantics standards back in this thread that the terms "Universe" and "Universe 7" should refer only to the Living World by default.

Thank god these CRT's have been aiming to change some of these fuckass standards
Also pretty odd that the manga uses the Map diagram, and calls it Uni 10, as a whole, a fact 90% of you've grasped onto, but "n-no uni 7 is diff-", man, actually get off it.

So "HTC is outside the macrocosm" arguments go out of the window? I see.

Not even remotely.
You realize "well it was accepted" means nothing in regards to a CRT aiming to change that right? That's what CRT's are for after all.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Not even remotely.
You realize "well it was accepted" means nothing in regards to a CRT aiming to change that right? That's what CRT's are for after all.

Sure, tell that to the OP of this thread and then I'll agree to that logic.

Make it make sense.

 

[Chariot190]

Sure, tell that to the OP of this thread and then I'll agree to that logic. Make it make sense.

It directly ties into the OP, no shit it's gonna be subject to debate, literally everything that may or may not affect the cosmology, is up for debate. Unless there's a written rule, anything is subject to change if it ties into the whole uni 7 bullshit.

"It's been accepted" isn't gonna fly, if it changes, it changes.

And why? I'm not OP, doesn't change the fact that if it effects or is effected by the proposition, it's on the table. Like dude you've been enough CRT's to know how this works.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

It's because I've been on so many threads that I constantly see people, the OP being one in some instances, dismiss it as 'oh, you need another thread' thing despite shit being directly tied to the OP's arguments. Hell it's happened between me and the OP of this one in recent,previous threads.

I know shit changes, I'm well aware of that.


But if people wanna play double standards, then it's another thing entirely. That doesn't fly with me,sorry.

 

[Chariot190]

It's because I've been on so many threads that I constantly see people, the OP being one in some instances, dismiss it as 'oh, you need another thread' thing despite shit being directly tied to the OP's arguments. Hell it's happened between me and the OP of this one in recent,previous threads.

Take it up with them, not me man.

As long as it's directly tied to, and doesn't have a discussion rule protecting it, it's to be expected some shit is gonna be on the table

I know shit changes, I'm well aware of that.

Then you should know using past threads as a shield ain't exactly a good idea.

If people wanna play double standards, then it's another thing entirely. That doesn't fly with me,sorry.

Unfortunately, I'm not "people", I like to think im pretty damn consistent in my standards so.
Nobody has to pretend or jump through hoops to use common sense because "well you need a new thread". It'd be one thing if it wasn't directly tied to it, but it is, quite literally, tied directly to the OP (like duh, we're talking about the ****** universe), there is no "other thread", this is the thread.

Not that it matters anyway, people can and will do so.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Take it up with them, not me man.

I'm already doing so,dw.

Snip

Regardless of our PoVs yes, I can't deny you're consistent on the standards behind your takes. Which is good.

 

[Omegabronic]

So you concede my point that that description is based on the design of the macrocosm.

that is a weird way of phrasing it, no, i said that the map that was drawn had to follow the direction of whatever Akira came up with for how the realms looked like, so it would need to follow the descriptions given

And the proof is that the map appears for the first time in full on Daizenshuu 4, and there you can see the strange design engraved in the barriers:

this doesn't prove that the description was based around the map tho......so

And then, on Daizenshuu 7, that's when the description of the universe is given. That is, the design of the map must have appeared first in Daizenshuu 4, so that that description is given later in Daizenshuu 7, implying that they are directly related. Another proof is that the description of Daizenshuu 7 takes you directly to Daizenshuu 4, specifically to page 72



THAT IS THE SAME PAGE WHERE THE DRAWING OF THE MACROCOSM APPEARS!

yeah, the macrocosm map is an abstraction showing how the universe functions while not being 100% accurate to all the details of how it looks like, thus the very funny size discrepancies present in it, huh, you just changed my mind about a subject in the earlier thread i think, good articulation, kudos to you

Toriyama made this map AFTER he finished drawing the series, and then the guidebooks expanded on his map and the cosmos, some of them describe the actual universe, but sometimes they will literally just describe whats on the map toriyama drew, why do you think its word for word for how the map is drawn?

all this says is that he drew the map after all the story was done, not that the ideas he had for the how the world looked came as he was drawing it, of course ideas like the Kaioshin realm he must have had when he was writting the story that far and maybe had already drawn earlier versions of the map, but that is neither here or there

Those are direct quotes from toriyama, he literally just says this map was made to wrap our heads around everything and get a general idea what the worlds are like. But even toriyama, through his own words pretty much tells us its just an artistic choice, clearly. There are no opaqe walls with a strange design that blocks the living world

i mean..........you said yourself, even if abstracted, the map serves to show how the world is, it being used to represent which are of the universe they are talking about in the guide certainly doesn't disqualify them, specially when the statements about it are talking about the realms themselves

there are actual spatialtemporal barriers that separate everything.

you didn't proved that yet......at max you proved that those exist to separate something outside the macrocosm from the inside of the macrocosm.....which is duh tbh

Those descriptions aren't accurate to how they are actually portrayed by toriyama, and the guidebooks

..........you do know that is the only map used to portray them in guidebooks rights?

, games like kakarot,

which can be ignored if contradicts the main cannon, which was decided in another thread which even allowed us to use stuff from it in the first place

also any other games are not cannon, therefore not really relevant

super, etc

........you do know that if you use the Super depictions all the Universes share the same physical space, right? you did read the last point in the OP, right?

. We been know that the macrocosm map isnt 100 percent literal, yet you're still using it to try to say the entire cosmology is connected and just floating around in the main universe.

yet you guys argued very hard for it in the earlier thread? now that you can dis use it to possibly prevent a downgrade you are quick to do so.......curious ain't it?

regardless, yeah, it isn't 100% accurate, but i am not even using the Map, but direct statements about the realms and situations that imply as such in the series itself, so

Which is just blatantly wrong, your whole crt is pretty based off of nothing.

not really? it is based around actual statements in verse, statements that do not regard the Map and other statements that do not even regard the macrocosm, but talk about a thing that is outside of it

And no, the globe does in fact NOT contradict the macrocosms being 2-C. They can still be made up of multiple spacetimes bruh, and they are shown to multiple times, going back to the interdimensional separation conversation.

they have not.........going back to the coversation, there is still nothing that puts them as other dimensions, worst yet, nothing that puts them as other space times

So idk why you're saying it can't be used, we never had a problem using it before.

what am i saying can't be used again? the Map? if you are arguing that it can be used, well it would be weird that what you said imediatly before in this very comment

All the "contradictions" you say exist, don't actually exist.

they do tho, wait, are you talking about the Super depiction? the one where the Universes are literally touching each other physically and thus ocupying the same space?

Bubble universe are things used in fiction to represent universes sitting in a higher dimensional space all the time, does that contradict them being spacetimes? Of course not

no, but them physically touching and thus being connected physically certainly does

, we know that the universes don't connect because a neutral dimension is used to separate them completely, they don't connect, no matter how much you nitpick every single frame of the anime to try and convince us they do.

first of all, that is the manga, which in this case is very clearly different from the anime given all we ever saw of the neutral space in it

second of all, yes they do if you follow that scene given the literal shot showing them being physically connected, like, clear cut showing, good luck trying to argue against what is visually showed ig

We see the characters between the universes, with millions of galaxies of separation and we STILL don't see them until we zoom out extremely far into the neutral space.

i can count a dozen, at max 12 galaxies in the shot you are showing, not millions of them, so........duh, of course it doesn't zoom out, there are just so few galaxies being covered

also the Universe has like, Trillions of galaxies so millions ain't worth much of anything

Light shining across the two universes doesn't matter? In a neutral space where the universes are held on a 5th axis, interaction with universes can act extremely differently, it doesn't debunk anything.

light physically traveling between and into both does........also, statement about them acting differently? do you have proof of that?

also again, physically touching............pretty sure i wrote that in the OP, dunno why you are missing that detail

The realms can still not be seen, but be different dimensions still apart of the macrocosm.

prove that they are different dimensions to begin with and then we can begin talking about that

Your entire thread was based off of using a visual that toriyama made that was not 100 percent literal to debunk the cosmology.

no, it was based around the statement about the realms that the map, as a illustration of them, had to follow to be drawn in the first place as the ideas have to come first before one draws something as that is how drawing something works

also i love how you are ignoring all the other evidence that does not come from the pages and scans you are covering and somehow saying that it is the "base of the thread" when it ain't even 35% of it

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

That doesnt prove the description was made around the map

DZ7 uses the same identical description, literally sends you to the map showed in DZ4

This is a middle finger to reading comprehension,logic and whatever else you can think of. No offense meant.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

yeah, the macrocosm map is an abstraction showing how the universe functions while not being 100% accurate to all the details of how it looks like, thus the very funny size discrepancies present in it, huh, you just changed

So… you concede

manga

Isn’t this thread about the manga too?

 

[LordDestroit10K]

manga

And well, neutral dimension also appears in DBS anime. So, what is your point here?