Dragon Ball Cosmology Canon

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That’s not what is currently utilized or proposed, though. For example, when asked about using Toei Planet Vegeta/Plant/Tsufaru to get its size via comparing it to Earth in GT, it was pretty objectively decided by even some the people supporting this thread that this simply isn’t how it works. We can conclude broad strokes, but nitty gritty details like that are beyond us, and this Revision still treats them that way. And, obviously, I’m against any revisions that try to say they are totally identical.

A good example of how this would (and has worked) for some time is that we accept that Hell is a body in the afterlife that acts as a prison to those who died. However, while the broad strokes of it are identical back in Z compared to now with Super (with identical maps, no less), the EXACT SPECIFICS are different. (Instead of an infinite void for evildoers, it’s a multifaceted and contains Hell’s for “each planet.”)

But this is the exact opposite of what happened, short Bardock. It’s not like someone made something else up and he copied it (again, except Bardock). What EXPLICITLY happened is he was asked about his Manga’s Universe (ie, his CANON) and he Answered Questions and Drew Diagrams which were then ADAPTED into the Z-Anime. As in, he was asked canon information so they can use that for their filler stories.

And we pretty clearly see this was the case for many other elements (“I got scripts/ideas from Sensei,”).

Now, I won’t pretend we can figure out which is which beyond exact records given to us by Producers, Toriyama, Artists, etc. But the common statement is most came from him. So I think it’s pretty fair to use the Anime to inform things like we do Kakarot, unless it’s an outright contradiction (like the Origin of the Dragon Balls in OGDB), is too specific in certain ways we can’t utilize (The Toei Size of Planet Vegeta), or explicitly made by someone else, (Z Bardock, History of Trunks.)

I don’t think all of them should be “canon.” As in, literally what objectively happened. I think the Anime should be supplementary to the Manga.

It’s uncertain. While we know certain things were penned by him and affect the modern era, like the Cosmology, or the Kai’s, it’s impossible to say how much was Toriyama and how much was others. And that’s not getting into the fact Toriyama is forgetful, and has even said he won’t remember making a given thing in later interviews, but we have record of him having done so from himself or others in older ones (ironically making older, not newer, information for reliable testimonies).

I mean, the best example of this is that he literally made something as minor as an airport apart of his Heavenly Cosmology. This is direct, canon info given by him. But it’s NOWHERE to be seen in the Manga, or in Super. Which means it not appearing isn’t a slight against its canonicity—It’s at best a slight against Toriyama not ever delving into that side of his world on paper. Or not remembering.

I mention Gregory because he appeared in the DBS Anime, which is one of the two canon continuations of the Original Series. Meaning a Toriyama idea not present in the original, added by him retroactively, has been faithfully added into his Sequel Series. But it is true it’s not as ironclad as Heaven.

Sure, but that’s not disproving that we can use the Anime as supplementary materials. Just that it’s a case by case basis. Which already has been allowed for other things that directly has Toriyama’s influence and stories directly penned by him, but is not “totally,” him. That said, the real question is trying to judge what is Toriyama and what is Hogwash.

It's uncertain what extent one would be able to use this liberty. If we already have records on what canon information Toriyama gave to the producers, could someone bring something that's anime-only and argue that Toriyama influenced it and thus it's canon? How much evidence would he have to bring up for it?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

As far as I can recall I don't think I agreed with the composited cosmology in the first place; DeagonX and I were going to make a thread several months ago to address it but lost track of time and forgot about it.

The GOAT of basic common sense /j

Seriously, I hope this thread gets made soon, we have objective contradictions in cosmology between media, therefore it's impossible for one to claim they share a cosmology.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I don't think it's impossible either to argue for a 2-C cosmology for the manga and Super continuities

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Could you guys stop arguing about other crt? This one is just to justify something that is already accepted, if you want it to continue in another crt far from here.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Ngl here, but in my country there is a saying: without fire there is no smoke. There is a reason for why accusation suddenly come out, aren't no way people suddenly throwing out accusation without knowing the target of the accusation. Sometime, it will be nice if people reflect on themselves and question that why i get accused, rather than keep the mindset: i always right and will never be wrong

Love that the expectation is that "Damage is actually just unprofessional and "acts like that because he personally dislikes the idea of the thread", "

But in reality, Damage gave compelling reasons to disagree with the thread, directly addressed what OP was proposing, and then clarified he thinks the evidence is insufficient.

You guys act like Damage is the only one disagreeing with this CRT??? Like, are all other staff who have no reason to be on his side from a personal standpoint, also disagreeing because they "dislike the idea for """no reason""""? No, that's completely asinine.

You have three established, well articulated staff members who are recognized for sound and compelling argumentation saying OP's points are bogus, yet you claim Damage alone is disagreeing from a personal bias. Honestly this should be reportable, that's blatant slander if I've ever seen it.


The reality is, people who like to either wank, or upgrade their characters senselessly are upset that Damage wants a reasonable rating. They are frustrated with the fact Damage acts like a barrier against their upgrades most of the time, and thus, falsely associates his takes to personal bias, even though it's (usually) backed up by reasonable and compelling evidence or arguments.


In short, COPE. This is rejected.

 

[RenderGK]

stop obstructing with unnecessary comments like the ones above, simply because you don't like something, you are obstructing the thread.

They should delete comments that don't contribute anything

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

stop obstructing with unnecessary comments like the ones above, simply because you don't like something, you are obstructing the thread

There was 10 or 15 comments accusing Damage of being biased, but I didn't see your ass say anything about "obstructing the thread". Now I make one comment refuting the very foundation of that idea and suddenly you have a problem with it?

Nope. Keep quiet.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I believe it was mentioned before that derailing comments would be deleted. The matter is settled. There's no need to clog up the thread further

My stance remains, for the record. I still disagree with the OP

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Yellow_Topaz There's really no need for this. I already warned others about continuing to derail this with accusations against myself; I don't need you adding in extra comments that aren't focused on the topic of the thread.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

@The_Yellow_Topaz There's really no need for this. I already warned others about continuing to derail this with accusations against myself; I don't need you adding in extra comments that aren't focused on the topic of the thread.

This.

Me and Damage already said what we had to say to each other, and then we dropped the topic. There's no need to clog the thread more.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Can we just, not? Please maintain civility, we already got here because we couldn't, we should not make this worse, please focus and stop being at each other's throats

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

We're cooked, all of us.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Therefir @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @Migue79 @GarrixianXD @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens

What do you think about this?

Dragon Ball Cosmology Canon

For those who have fallen off the wagon and don't know what I'm proposing, here it is accepted that the cosmology is composite, as having material from other spinoffs such as Trunks' timeline existing in the same multiverse canon as the franchise, i'm just justifying it for the toei to continue...

vsbattles.com

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Therefir @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @Migue79 @GarrixianXD @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens

What do you think about this?

Dragon Ball Cosmology Canon

For those who have fallen off the wagon and don't know what I'm proposing, here it is accepted that the cosmology is composite, as having material from other spinoffs such as Trunks' timeline existing in the same multiverse canon as the franchise, i'm just justifying it for the toei to continue...

vsbattles.com

If this isn't a huge ask, could you please remind them to read the thread (specifically page 5) so they aren't confused and they know what specifically we're arguing for? That has become a problem for us.

 

[Antvasima]

If this isn't a huge ask, could you please remind them to read the thread (specifically page 5) so they aren't confused and they know what specifically we're arguing for? That has become a problem for us.

Okay. Help in this area would be appreciated.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Okay. Help in this area would be appreciated.

 

[Makishi222]

Hi, I just want to clarify some things. Although I know that the reason for this is that some "non-canon" data is taken for the cosmology of the original work, we must know that Akira contributed to the anime, but those things were only small ideas or character designs (you can see it in this link).
Also Akira separated anime and manga.
For example In his interview with Koyama and Nozawa in "Tenka'ichi Densetsu". He said:

https://imgur.com/gallery/LWcm3ET

In his interview with the animator Nakatsuru in "Son Goku Densetsu" he said:

https://imgur.com/gallery/tNP8dyk

It is important to note that guides like Daizenshuu 7 and Chozenshuu 4, which talk about cosmology, separate things seen in the anime from the original manga material.

Chozenshuu 4 text:
Worldview Glossary

Thorough explanation of terms related to the worldview of Dragon Ball. 【特】Denotes distinctive features and supplements, ☆ mark and 【ア】 indicate original anime, ★ mark and 【ス】 indicate spin-off works (such as "Neko Majin", "Arale-chan") original settings.

https://imgur.com/gallery/FM6RZcH

Everything that has this "ア" or "☆" in the titles or descriptions is original to the anime.

Eg:
-Daizenshuu 7:

https://imgur.com/gallery/PWK74Mn

-Chozenshuu 4:

https://imgur.com/gallery/L3ya7pR

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

@Maverick_Zero_X

I’m well aware what’s being argued, and my stance remains unchanged.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I’m well aware what’s being argued, and my stance remains unchanged.

Keep in mind that this will not change what has already been accepted, this is just an additional justification.

I understand, you will never change regardless of how good the argument is for staying, that's okay.

 

[TiltedFN]

Keep in mind that this will not change what has already been accepted, this is just an additional justification.

I understand, you will never change regardless of how good the argument is for staying, that's okay.

 

[KingNanaya]

Keep in mind that this will not change what has already been accepted, this is just an additional justification.

I understand, you will never change regardless of how good the argument is for staying, that's okay.

Dawgs, she said she knew what you were arguing and still disagreed. Just chill out and go about your day

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Dawgs, she said she knew what you were arguing and still disagreed. Just chill out and go about your day

Should i list you in disagree or are you going to say something to contribute to the crt?

 

[KingNanaya]

Should i list you in disagree or are you going to say something to contribute to the crt?

my vote really doesn't matter. I'm just trying to make sure things stay mostly on track when I'm able. do you have an issue with this?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

my vote really doesn't matter. I'm just trying to make sure things stay mostly on track when I'm able. do you have an issue with this?

If you don't have anything important to say, just cast your vote and leave so as not to fill this crt, thank.

 

[KingNanaya]

If you don't have anything important to say, just cast your vote and leave so as not to fill this crt, thank.

Would appreciate if you would stop being randomly rude to people, thanks.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Would appreciate if you would stop being randomly rude to people, thanks.

I'm just mentioning that more random comments won't help with this crt or add anything here, if you think it's bad you can report me (in fact, i'm not actually doing anything other than the necessary )

 

[JJSliderman]

Just wondering, is the goal to say that anime exclusive elements like the dead zone or Sugoroku space apply to the manga continuity as well, or is it specifically referring to elements existing in both the manga and anime and to consider both versions of said element as reliable?

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

Would appreciate if you would stop being randomly rude to people, thanks.

I don’t think Luffy is being rude, he’s telling you not to derail the thread.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don’t think Luffy is being rude, he’s telling you not to derail the thread.

Yes

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Just wondering, is the goal to say that anime exclusive elements like the dead zone or Sugoroku space apply to the manga continuity as well, or is it specifically referring to elements existing in both the manga and anime and to consider both versions of said element as reliable?

These things exist all within the same shared cosmology and Dragon Ball canon guides mention about these locations, just like all super structure is mentioned in guides, the universe is the same for both, but with a different story.

 

[Padaruyos]

This CRT is cooked dawg. Just start over and make your intentions absolutely clear in the first post next time

 

[Hasty12345]

Just wondering, is the goal to say that anime exclusive elements like the dead zone or Sugoroku space apply to the manga continuity as well, or is it specifically referring to elements existing in both the manga and anime and to consider both versions of said element as reliable?

As it currently stands, they already apply to the manga iirc

 

[KingNanaya]

I don’t think Luffy is being rude, he’s telling you not to derail the thread.

I was talking about how he was talking to other people, not myself. I really don't care how he talks to me; I just want him to stop being so hostile to people for no reason.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This CRT is cooked dawg. Just start over and make your intentions absolutely clear in the first post next time

But it was clear from the beginning, it's just that some comments distorted my crt and the unnecessary derailment began.

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

I was talking about how he was talking to other people, not myself. I really don't care how he talks to me; I just want him to stop being so hostile to people for no reason.

And just where exactly is Luffy being “rude”?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Ant got a mob of mods coming in for input, but the derailment has gotten extremely out of hand. I think this should be either put on ice or should just, you know, actually be debated and not this back and forth antagionisim. To everyone who has nothing meaningful to say and are commenting out of pure spite or rage bait, aka Topaz, leave, you are clogging this thread and are not up to any standard of cooperative. And to those who actually have something to say, please stay on topic. As usual for a Dragon Ball CRT, this has gone on for too long unnecessarily with people not being able to READ. THE. PROPOSITION. So please, sit down, focus on the task, review the thread, and give thoughts. As for myself, I am unfollowing because my contributive power is relatively low, I'm merely attempting to be a mediator.

 

[KingNanaya]

And just where exactly is Luffy being “rude”?

Spoiler: here

Should i list you in disagree or are you going to say something to contribute to the crt?

Keep in mind that this will not change what has already been accepted, this is just an additional justification.

I understand, you will never change regardless of how good the argument is for staying, that's okay.

Well, what is canon to you? Because I'm explaining that it's canon for cosmology, I don't know what exactly you're disagreeing with here, but it seems like you're just disagreeing because you want to

This is just to further justify something accepted and to block that topic that you closed with no chance of us defending

It is already composed for the right reasons, just a justification, Omega, if you have nothing to add to this crt, could you stop commenting here

I already added you, no need to clog my crt with your random messages.

We are talking about cosmology, Omega and not the fusion between both media, please don't make my crt have 500 pages.

Could you stop tormenting me?

I will put all those staff members who agreed with Damage to neutral, because they both don't understand what I really want here and until they give an opinion again i won't add they

Hasn't your distorted opinion changed? Just to let you know, this won't affect anything, because this has already been accepted years ago, this is just another justification, i will only post those who comment and understand what i say, i already added you as disagree, the others will have to comment again, because there was a misunderstanding due to your distorted comment here.

I will post it after they give their opinion back, especially because there was a misunderstanding, where they were distorting that i wanted to merge the Toei profile with the manga

Let's not take away evidence because you disagree

but lets drop that for now. if you still want to continue, go message me on my wall

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

but lets drop that for now. if you still want to continue, go message me on my wall

Could you stop cluttering my things with unnecessary things?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Therefir @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @Migue79 @GarrixianXD @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens

What do you think about this?

Dragon Ball Cosmology Canon

For those who have fallen off the wagon and don't know what I'm proposing, here it is accepted that the cosmology is composite, as having material from other spinoffs such as Trunks' timeline existing in the same multiverse canon as the franchise, i'm just justifying it for the toei to continue...

vsbattles.com

I made my most recent opinion here