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is it really a Ki ability?And Piccolo was able to communicate with Goten and Trunks through telepathy, a Ki ability, so what is your point?
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is it really a Ki ability?And Piccolo was able to communicate with Goten and Trunks through telepathy, a Ki ability, so what is your point?
Actually in the special attack dictionary it's categorized as an "ability" planely not ki manipulation like the kamehameha etc.And Piccolo was able to communicate with Goten and Trunks through telepathy, a Ki ability, so what is your point?
not in the physical universe, outside of it, i am not saying that it is inside the universeI disagree with OP fra. I find it strange how teleportation is the only way to get the kai realm, yet its being argued these realms are just floating about in the physical universe.
no accusations pleaseI can't help to think this is just arguments in bad faith.
1 Whis' Warp is factually not Teleporation, so the scan saying that only Teleporation can get you there is factually wrongWe know teleportation techniques like kai kai and I.T are able to travel to different dimensions like zeno's palace, which btw, is another dimension, based on this scan right here. So saying teleportation is the only way to travel to these realms does in fact mean these are spatialtemporally separated dimensions.
which doesn't really for the point now, does it? all that matters is that it isn't teleporation,Whis was also able to travel to zeno's dimension, it would just take longer. So we know for a fact that whis travels to other dimensions with his warp ability.
yeah, because he had no way to actually reach that far without, from what he knew so far, the only way he fond to go there, which isn't really solid proof when Whis showed that you can in fact go to the other realms without Teleportation at all, so Goku is just proven wrong in this caseGoku even said it would be IMPOSSIBLE for kid buu to get to the kaioshin realm without teleportation
being a separated world =/= being another dimension, these dimensional physical walls that you keep mentioning do not exist, and its been shown that "barriers" clearly mean the fabric of space and time that separates them, that's why toriyama calls them separated worlds completely.
brick certainly not, that would be a weird material to useDo you really think the ONLY thing separating the worlds are just big brick walls or something? There is so much wrong with this but I'll humor you.
Can anyone in the Universe break it? Up until the ToP i don't think we saw any char who could break Kachi kachin, at least not confirmed, as for what they are made of? the Kaishin realm one is Crystal, that much is said, which crystal? dunno, the Afterlife one? no idea, never specifiedWhat are these walls made of? Surely they can't be made of anything harder than the hardest material in the universe kachi kachin, so there's definitely people who could break it.
around he realms they separate from the rest, as to why they were never seen? well man, we never really saw the Afterlife and the Kaioshin realm from the outside in an accurate way to actually see them, altho if you want to use the Macrocosm map, which people for some reason think is acurate to what the universes looks like, they are seen, domes and a weird wall around and such, so if you really want to count that, meh, not like it matters muchWhere are these physical barriers and why have they never been seen at all?
Has nobody ever in history seen them?
simple......it isn't, Whis does all the time without using teleporation at all, sides it clearly can't go to other dimensions, Goku can't use it to go to the ROSAT for exampleWhy is teleportation the only way to get to the kaio realm and afterlife? Besides dying of course, why is this interdimensional technique that is specifically made to have the capabilities of traveling to other dimensions the ONLY WAY?
it can be, Beerus and Goku almost did in BoGWhy can't this physical wall just be broken by strong characters?
i mean......physical barriers existing doesn't stop other type of non physical barriers to exist, i hope you know thatWhy are the barriers that are confirmed to exist just the fabric of spacetime? Like the barrier between the rosat and the living world? Or the dimension broly and gogeta broke into?
Toryama word is less front sit then what the actual source material saysWhy do toriyama and numerous statements from kakarot literally confirm that they do NOT sit in the same body of space?
that it is in between dimensions.........which is what the realms like Afterlife and Kaioshin realm being argued to not beChozenshuu 4 and kakarot literally tells us the ROSAT is an area of subspace, that the ROSAT is between dimensions sitting in the subspace. What does between dimensions mean?
that the ROSAT is another dimension outside the Universe and that you need to break the dimensional barriers of the ROSAT to go to the UniverseAnd what does it mean that you can break the dimensional barrier of the rosat and get back to the living realm?
the ROSAT is a dimension however, Subspace is what is between dimensions, as such, ROSAT is inside of Subspace, which exists between it and the other dimensionsIt means that the rosat is in fact between the dimensions for being in subspace which is what holds the dimensions.
which i never said the ROSAT does with the restThey literally can't share the same spacetime.
because if it was between the realms of the macrocosm, it would be closer, thus easier to feel than the other realms who supposedly would be further apartAlso, for the point of, "goku can sense ki in the afterlife and the kaioshin realm but can't sense ki in the ROSAT". Why exactly does this matter?
why would a different flow of time make him feeling ki there more difficult? that smells like a headcanon from you nowWe know the rosat has an explicit different flow of time which could just mean its harder for goku to ki sense in there
we don't really know that no, at least, no scan presented says as such, we do know that the afterlife and kaioshin realm have separate time axis, but they flow on the same rate of time.
of course they "could" but the limitations you say for the likes of IT and Ki sense is not based around any statements in universe, just you trying to come up with something to explain why one space time can't be traveled to with IT while the other supposed space time can, when the supposed one is not even said to be another space time to begin withThis doesn't suddenly mean, "oh yeah all the realms are just in one physical universe that you can travel to physically". That doesn't make any sense, different dimensions could have different properties.
says who? he is using telepathy, not KiWe really just don't know, piccolo can communicate between dimensions with goten and trunks, and surely that requires picking up some type of detection or ki signature.
no, but the statements saying that there is a physical connection does, also you saying things that "could" be without showing evidence for said things, which you could only justify if you assume that the realms that are not stated to be space times are for some reason is......odd to say the leastThere's many things it could be, but it doesn't debunk separated realms in the macrocosm.
The one character whose abilities explicitly transcend time and far surpass everybody else's.we know jiren was able to sense hit when he was in another dimension entirely
is it ever said that he sensed hit's ki or that he sensed hit at all? the scan you posted just says on they being confused about his attacks being detected, given the normality of Ki sense in that era, something so simply being to make Hit detected seems oddThis ki sensing thing literally doesn't matter, we know jiren was able to sense hit when he was in another dimension entirely, and jiren can sense ki obviously.
Jiren you didn't posted anything that would suggest he can, the Hit one just says he detected Hit, never said that he did that with Ki sense, also you do understand that the thread is proposing that the other realms are not other dimensions right? so by the other evidence in the thread the Goku example would also be wrongGoku not being able to sense ki in the rosat is not a defeater to the argument. We're going off of the presumption that all dimensions have the same nature, there are characters that can sense ki across dimensions, like jiren for example, even goku can, across the afterlife, and the kaioshin realm.
so a dimension that is supposedly between the other realms in the macrocosm, thus close to them than the said other realms, is paradoxically also cutted out completely and unable to be detected? seems weird, specially since Telepathy still works, showing that it isn't entirely shut offBut it doesn't mean he can for the rosat, especially sense its said to be shut off entirely.
despite the above, i find this good to consider for that point in specificWhat this means is that it also hinders their capability to sense ki from other dimensions, which goku actually clarifies in that same scan, which I repeat, is NOT a defeater for the other realms being separated spacetimes
is there anything saying that it is? i can only remember it ever being called another space, not another space timeUnless we're going to argue that hits dimension is not a separate spacetime now? Which is obviously baseless
he doesn't clarify that that's the reason why it can't be sensed there thoAlso old kai then clarifies that this dimension is the dimension of time (the rosat) which is why energy cant be sensed there.
based on what?As for omegas argument, maybe I should have worded it better so you can understand it, but the whole point is that teleportation can travel interdimensional distances
point is that it isn't Teleportation, so a statement saying "only teleporation can be used to reach there" is automatically wrong if can do that without teleportation, that is kind of self evident, and yes whis cannot teleport, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter, because whis has shown interdimensional travel, just like instant transmission, but slower.
not really since it is never said that things like Warp is the only method of going there, Teleportation is retconned by Whis' warp, so the statement saying that is also not validSo ultimately we arrive at the conclusion that these realms require interdimensional techniques and methods to get to them, like whis' warp, or the kais and gokus teleportation techniques.
it not being in the Ki category in the techniques organization certainly comfirms that it isn't a Ki technique thoAlso for the telepathy scan, we aren't sure if it is a ki based ability or not, saying its a natural ability doesn't disprove it from using ki
Explain why that matters? Jiren being able to sense hit in another dimension is ki sensing, which means hits presence in another dimension can be sensed and is not limited by the nature of the dimension. His strength transcending time statements we treat as a resistance to time related abilities, but what jiren did was blatantly detect him and know where he was going to attack from in that alternate dimension. And why the hell are you typing like that? Stop typing like a smartass, you come off as extremely arrogant.The one character whose abilities explicitly transcend time and far surpass everybody else's.
says who?Explain why that matters? Jiren being able to sense hit in another dimension is ki sensing
Says who? What do you mean says who? Detecting someone in dragon ball in most cases means KI SENSING!! The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that detecting hit doesn't mean he sensed his ki, that's another baseless claim. What kind of argument is "says who", EXPLAIN IT. And wait while i reply to your other argument, you like to break everything into small lines of text so im going to respond to what matters.says who?
......so you are saying that it is ki sensing because other character can fell each others Ki? if something so common could be used to detect hit.....then why would anyone be surprised at all that he can be detected when in another dimension? by all accounts it should be very easy to detect Hit if Ki sensing was able to do that, more on that, Ki sensing the characters say that they "felt" each other and not "detected", but that is a minor thing anywaySays who? What do you mean says who? Detecting someone in dragon ball in most cases means KI SENSING!!
no, you are the one with the positive claim "he used Ki sense" the burden of proof to prove that is on youThe burden of proof is on YOU to prove that detecting hit doesn't mean he sensed his ki, that's another baseless claim.
it wasn't an argument, it was a question, you explain your point, you are the one who made it in the first placeWhat kind of argument is "says who", EXPLAIN IT.
i don't really feel like waiting, both comment have nothing to do with each other anywayAnd wait while i reply to your other argument, you like to break everything into small lines of text so im going to respond to what matters.
Well I already replied to you about the ki sensing bit, so Im skipping that. The rosat being, "closer" doesn't mean anything when goku EXPLICITLY EXPLAINS that the rosat is shut out from the outside world including sensing ki, so from that statement, we can denote that the rosat has special properties that doesn't allow for ki sensing. It's that simple, easy to understand. And again we really don't know how telepathy works across the dimension that doesn't allow for ki sensing, either it doesn't require ki and that's a property that is not hindered by the chamber, OR if it does use ki and piccolo communicates by picking up on their ki signatures, then the statement is wrong, and this entire argument for the other realms not being separate dimensions because of the rosat falls apart completely because its inconsistent and proven wrong, pick your poison. Or we could easily brush this off as an outlier, that's another option, its obviously something that really just doesn't matter, its a bad argument. Also we are given examples of what is actually shut out when entering that chamber, and an example we have is ki sensing, so we can only go off whats SHOWN to be shut out. And yes, hits dimension is called a "parallel world" by vados verbatim, but even without that, we clearly see goku enter that dimension by cracking the spatialtemporal boundaries of the universe and hits dimension, so that should be out of the question if its a separate spacetime or not, it clearly is. And for the whis shit, what I said still stands, the actual logical conclusion we can go to is that interdimensional abilities are required to go to the separate realms, like whis warp or IT, I'm tired of repeating myself.is it ever said that he sensed hit's ki or that he sensed hit at all? the scan you posted just says on they being confused about his attacks being detected, given the normality of Ki sense in that era, something so simply being to make Hit detected seems odd
regardless, if nothing is ever said about Jiren using Ki sense specifically to feel Hit, then this doesn't really prove much
Jiren you didn't posted anything that would suggest he can, the Hit one just says he detected Hit, never said that he did that with Ki sense, also you do understand that the thread is proposing that the other realms are not other dimensions right? so by the other evidence in the thread the Goku example would also be wrong
so a dimension that is supposedly between the other realms in the macrocosm, thus close to them than the said other realms, is paradoxically also cutted out completely and unable to be detected? seems weird, specially since Telepathy still works, showing that it isn't entirely shut off
despite the above, i find this good to consider for that point in specific
is there anything saying that it is? i can only remember it ever being called another space, not another space time
regardless, Jiren's example doesn't show him feeling Hit's Ki in there anyway, so your point hanging on this is def not really solid
he doesn't clarify that that's the reason why it can't be sensed there tho
based on what?
point is that it isn't Teleportation, so a statement saying "only teleporation can be used to reach there" is automatically wrong if can do that without teleportation, that is kind of self evident
not really since it is never said that things like Warp is the only method of going there, Teleportation is retconned by Whis' warp, so the statement saying that is also not valid
overall, we don't have any valid statement that say that only interdimensional techniques can make once reach the Kaioshin realm, even then the likes of the Afterlife don't have such statements at all, so
it not being in the Ki category in the techniques organization certainly comfirms that it isn't a Ki technique tho
The assumptions needed to claim it's not ki sensing (the most prevalent form of sensing ever that almost every fighter that uses ki is able to do), but perhaps just some never-before-seen, never-before-explained means of sensing people, are just so ludicrous that this response is not one I'd consider good or productive at all.says who?
Goku never traveled to otherworld physically with flying nimbusGonna have to agree with the thread. I mean why give a very physical description of the makeup of both Other World and the Supreme Kai's world unless you have clear intentions of doing so? I mean, heck, Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus and that isn't even considered interdimensional travel when that happened. It's just a cloud flying from Point A to Point B.
And before you complain, engraving is a physical art form. Statues have been built with gaps in their design before, as this bronze statue of Don Quixote can certainly attest:
what on earth are you talking about.Gonna have to agree with the thread. I mean why give a very physical description of the makeup of both Other World and the Supreme Kai's world unless you have clear intentions of doing so? I mean, heck, Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus and that isn't even considered interdimensional travel when that happened. It's just a cloud flying from Point A to Point B.
And before you complain, engraving is a physical art form. Statues have been built with gaps in their design before, as this bronze statue of Don Quixote can certainly attest:
I am arrogant.you come off as extremely arrogant.
Gladly.The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that detecting hit doesn't mean he sensed his ki
Actually, he never travelled between worlds; Kami teleported Goku from King Yemma's Palace to The Lookout, and then he summoned the Flying Nimbus.Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus
ok, i can agree with thatThe rosat being, "closer" doesn't mean anything when goku EXPLICITLY EXPLAINS that the rosat is shut out from the outside world including sensing ki, so from that statement, we can denote that the rosat has special properties that doesn't allow for ki sensing. It's that simple, easy to understand.
which in itself doesn't really mean much when she says that what he creates is purely a separated space, so in this case she isn't saying "parallel" world in the usual senseAnd yes, hits dimension is called a "parallel world" by vados verbatim
when do we ever have any statements that this is what happened?, but even without that, we clearly see goku enter that dimension by cracking the spatialtemporal boundaries of the universe and hits dimension
and i say again, nothing is ever said about "interdimensioanl abilities" being a requirement, the one statement we have is about Teleportation exclussively, which is contradicted by Whis' Warp not being it, so once again i ask, what statement is there about only interdimensional tecnhiques being able to make one reach the other realms?And for the whis shit, what I said still stands, the actual logical conclusion we can go to is that interdimensional abilities are required to go to the separate realms, like whis warp or IT, I'm tired of repeating myself.
This whole "arrogant" persona thing's gotta stop though, it's not at all productive and only poisons thingsI am arrogant.
The very first definition is "to sense." Also, you say the original Japanese dialogue, but the "is intuition-based" link is for Chinese, not Japanese.In the original Japanese dialogue, "How can his attacks be detected and not work when he's in another space?!" is "別空間に潜んでの攻撃も察知されて通用しないなんて!", with the kanji "察知されて" (sacchi sarete) meaning "to sense; to infer; to gather; to pick up on" and is intuition-based.
Whoops. Sorry.Also, you say the original Japanese dialogue, but the "is intuition-based" link is for Chinese, not Japanese.
Okay so can we drop the rosat argument entirely since you concede?ok, i can agree with that
It does lmao, does parallel world mean something different now? Look at vados statement, it CLEARLY means a separate spacetime.which in itself doesn't really mean much when she says that what he creates is purely a separated space, so in this case she isn't saying "parallel" world in the usual sense
Here, goku is cracking the fabric of spacewhen do we ever have any statements that this is what happened?
It doesn't explicitly have to say that, using logic and watching the show, we KNOW that whis and teleportation techniques can travel to other dimensions.and i say again, nothing is ever said about "interdimensioanl abilities" being a requirement, the one statement we have is about Teleportation exclussively, which is contradicted by Whis' Warp not being it, so once again i ask, what statement is there about only interdimensional tecnhiques being able to make one reach the other realms?
Whatever it is the point remainsnot a persona but okay.
My other question: How did you arrive at this for the Japanese text?Whoops. Sorry.
Regardless, the word is a combination of the kanji 察 and 知; "guess, presume, surmise, judge, understand" + "know, wisdom".
Together, (roughly) "To know something in advance. To become aware of something.", or "inference", or "sense; infer", or "become conscious of; get to know or become aware of, usually accidentally; conclude from evidence; to become aware of through the senses". The point stands yet.
Are there raws or something? Because it sounds like you used the English sub for the English dialogue別空間に潜んでの攻撃も察知されて通用しないなんて!
Doesn't Whis explicitly travel to other universes, which are spatio-temporally separated from Universe 7? Like Universe 10 for instance. Or is that somehow not relevant?It doesn't explicitly have to say that, using logic and watching the show, we KNOW that whis and teleportation techniques can travel to other dimensions.
Source rips of the Japanese subtitle files from various streaming platforms, including Prime Video—my preferred source, because they include the entire dialogue—can be found here.Are there raws or something? Because it sounds like you used the English sub for the English dialogue
Yeah he does lmao, and he can travel to zenos dimension, but apparently that doesn't matterDoesn't Whis explicitly travel to other universes, which are spatio-temporally separated from Universe 7? Like Universe 10 for instance. Or is that somehow not relevant?
Source rips of the Japanese subtitle files from various streaming platforms, including Prime Video—my preferred source, because they include the entire dialogue—can be found here.
Yeah so idk why it's being claimed that Whis can't do thisYeah he does lmao, and he can travel to zenos dimension, but apparently that doesn't matter
We argued that the guides said that teleportation is the only way to reach these realms, because they have interdimensional properties, omega argued its wrong because whis doesn't use teleportation. I countered by saying while that may be true, whis has shown interdimensional properties with his warp, so whis traveling to other realms is not an anti feat for the realms being separated, like at all. And now omega is saying its wrong basically because it doesn't state that, but it doesn't have to, its SHOWN that whis warp ability is different. Clearly if special techniques and unique transportation methods like teleportation and the angels warp abilities are NEEDED, this literally means physical travel via 3D movement isnt possible and this proves the realms are separate dimensions. And the subspace shit.Yeah so idk why it's being claimed that Whis can't do this
the point isn't if Whis can or not travel other dimensions, he can, the point is that it isn't teleportation, thus the statement saying that only teleporation can be used to reach the Kaioshin realm is retconed, that is all that the Warp is used as far as my arguments for its description goDoesn't Whis explicitly travel to other universes, which are spatio-temporally separated from Universe 7? Like Universe 10 for instance. Or is that somehow not relevant?
simple.......it isn'tYeah so idk why it's being claimed that Whis can't do this
Omega, I'm going to say this again, whis not teleporting DOES NOT MATTER. You just admitted yourself whis CAN travel to other dimensions so this argument should be OVER. If you want to argue the statement for teleportation only being possible is retconned, thats fine, but interdimensional abilities ONLY being able to reach these realms is still valid, therefore this entire argument still falls apart.the point isn't if Whis can or not travel other dimensions, he can, the point is that it isn't teleportation, thus the statement saying that only teleporation can be used to reach the Kaioshin realm is retconed, that is all that the Warp is used as far as my arguments for its description go
that part isn't specifiedWe argued that the guides said that teleportation is the only way to reach these realms, because they have interdimensional properties, omega argued its wrong because whis doesn't use teleportation.
..........nor am i using the fact that he travels to them to prove suchI countered by saying while that may be true, whis has shown interdimensional properties with his warp, so whis traveling to other realms is not an anti feat for the realms being separated, like at all.
what the hell are you even talking about? no, i am saying a statement that only teleporation works to make one reach a place is retconned by someone else using a completely different thing to reach the said place, thus the statement is contradicted.......where are you getting this outlandish ideas of me saying a completely different thing from what i am actually saying?And now omega is saying its wrong basically because it doesn't state that
considering the only statement that would even suggest that such methods are a necessity is contradicted by the Warp not being teleporation......no, it doesn't prove that at allClearly if special techniques and unique transportation methods like teleportation and the angels warp abilities are NEEDED, this literally means physical travel via 3D movement isnt possible and this proves the realms are separate dimensions.
even if the above were true, that doesn't prove the subspace part at all regardlessAnd the subspace shit.
likewise i will say it again, it does, as without that there isn't anything that even remotely suggests or says that Interdimensional techniques are a necessity to reach the other realmsOmega, I'm going to say this again, whis not teleporting DOES NOT MATTER.
if you agree with the argument why are you continuing arguing with me for it?You just admitted yourself whis CAN travel to other dimensions so this argument should be OVER. If you want to argue the statement for teleportation only being possible is retconned, thats fine,
it isn't as that isn't said, they BEING able to reach these realms doesn't mean one NEEDS THEM EXCLUSIVELY to reach the realms, therefore you arguing that one NEEDS these type of things to travel to the likes of the Kaioshin realm is based on absolutely nothingbut interdimensional abilities ONLY being able to reach these realms is still valid, therefore this entire argument still falls apart.
Omega, Im very tired of this back and forth, you're not making a lot of sense here at all, do you even know what you're trying to argue anymore? Let me ask you this, what methods have been used to travel to different dimensions? Lets go over it, Teleportation, like kai kai, and instant transmission. Next, we have whis warp ability, which is able to travel to other dimensions. Next, the cube, which is something specifically DESIGNED to go to different universes. Next? Breaking spacetime barriers, like in the buu saga. Next? No physical travel? Weird isn't it? That every method ever used to go to different dimensions have some unique interdimensional property huh? Now what does that tell us omega? That the ONLY way to go to other dimensions are any of the methods I listed already, if you can't prove otherwise you LOSE this point. Which means the dimensions are spatialtemporally separated.likewise i will say it again, it does, as without that there isn't anything that even remotely suggests or says that Interdimensional techniques are a necessity to reach the other realms
Because I'm saying me agreeing with the retcon of ONLY teleportation being needed to get there, that still doesn't disprove only interdimensional travel methods being required.if you agree with the argument why are you continuing arguing with me for it?
But it does until proven otherwise.it isn't as that isn't said, they BEING able to reach these realms doesn't mean one NEEDS THEM EXCLUSIVELY to reach the realms, therefore you arguing that one NEEDS these type of things to travel to the likes of the Kaioshin realm is based on absolutely nothing
The specific word teleport. In his eyes, even though it is teleporting adjacent/teleporting with extra steps/teleporting with travel time, it’s still totally not teleporting and that makes that statement (and the implications of it), totally invalid for use. From what I understand.I mean I have only a minor understanding of the thread given I don't really want to participate in it too much, but if only interdimensional travel abilities like teleportation and Whis's ability can reach these realms, I don't see what the point of contention is
Point is......it isn't ever said that only these abilities can reach the realms, there is actually nothing supporting the notion of that being the caseI mean I have only a minor understanding of the thread given I don't really want to participate in it too much, but if only interdimensional travel abilities like teleportation and Whis's ability can reach these realms, I don't see what the point of contention is