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Issues With Aokiji's Tier

The Issue

Currently, Admiral Aokiji (Kuzan) sits at Small Country Level on the wiki by virtue of being "Comparable to Akainu" and having participated in this feat wherein the Three Admirals all halted one of Whitebeard's Quake attacks. Seemingly pretty straightforward.

There's also a straightforward issue with this: the shockwave in question is a form of Haki known, for now, as Goken. It is the generation of one's Haki into a tangible shield/armor of sorts around their personage which demonstrably amplifies their durability and striking prowess. The issue, for those who haven't connected the dots yet, is that Kuzan's base physicals and ice-generation cannot meaningfully scale from an esoteric ability.

The Explanation of The Issue
The fact that this is an esoteric ability wherein his own body does not meanginfully tank the attack means it in no way scales to his Durability, and the fact of our not knowing how well Aokiji can concentrate his Haki (and also lack of objective striking feats of his utilizing said Haki) leave us incapable of scaling Aokiji's canon feats and fights to this singular interaction with the only thing that gives him his entire AP rating.

What we have, instead, is him scaling off of Akainu (who gets two-shot by Whitebeard) for durability and scaling to Akainu for his AP (whose main damage is Durability Negation anyway as officially accepted on his profile) as well as a Mountain-level calc by Damage, itself something that doesn't apply to base physicals since it's ice-generation-only.

Further Issues
Further complicating things is the entire context surrounding Whitebeard's Quakes and their consistency of damage output: Whitebeard going all out and using his Gura Gura no Mi powers to shake Marineford and the surrounding ocean accomplishes this; notably, Marineford and its town just barely begin to take noticeable structural damage, with the ocean surrounding it having huge upheavals. In no way is this a Country-level feat, and this is Whitebeard concentrating all of his power into shaking Marineford solely to throw his foe off their feet. If Whitebeard's casual combat quakes were Country-level, simply shattering the entirety of the island at his leisure would be a simple task to accomplish, yet.....it doesn't occcur. Even when several persons outright state Whitebeard is attempting to sink the island and he's assaulting the island, he fails to do so, and when Whitebeard is bloodlusted and trying to kill Akainu,his assault simply splits the island in half

Further STILL, Whitebeard using the same pose for his ability accomplishes merely the breaking apart of two glaciers ; he doesn't obliterate them, just shakes them apart barely, with the debris falling straight down instead of being thrown away.

And to even further muddy the waters, the attack Aokiji+the other Admirals scale from was a quake attack that went directly through John Giant and then traveled the width of Marineford before slamming into their Haki Forcefield; to claim an attack that dispersed much of its energy before reaching its target is equivalent to Whitebeard's infamous and calc'd quake is ....suspect, at best.

Solutio
We go by what we can quantify for the Admirals, and cease usage of Whitebeard's quake calc to scale to the Admirals in any meaningful way due to the absurd context surrounding the entirety of their interactions which nullify any meaningful quantification of the feat. Even if you accept that Whitebeard's attacks are (laughably) all the exact same strength, and even if you accept that the Admirals blocked such an attack of that level (which they did, but via esoterics), there's no logical way to accept that Aokiji's esoteric ability (Haki) scales to his Ice Generation, and there's no logical way to accept that his esoteric ability scales to his base Physicals; anybody who scales from either his Ice or Physicals needs said scaling removed from their profile as well, namely Jozu for physically hitting Kuzan without any proof of Haki involvement in the blow and Donquixote Doflamingo who merely takes being coated in a thin layer of Kuzan's ice. Additionally, there's no way to cop out and claim him fighting Akainu is proof both can tank Haki blows of that level, since the very feat in question showcases all three perfectly halting the quake attack in unison, meaning their Haki blows would simply cancel one another out with perfectly-matched power, leaving their Physicals out of the equation still; as such, we would need a new tiering for Kuzan's base Physicals as well, and likely the same for Akainu's base Physicals (Akainu's single leg-against-bisento clash with Whitebeard didn't involve Whitebeard's Fruit, so would be meaningless to scale to Whitebeard's maximum output).
 
Not saying anything is wrong with it but it may just be a case for an outlier compared to everything else; unsure how outliers exactly work but I feel that calc is the source of all the scaling issues so far.
 
Wow, One Piece can not just catch a break... I thought this was already settled like several times now
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Wow, One Piece can not just catch a break... I thought this was already settled like several times now
I dare say that nothing is truly set in stone for any verse.

The OP raises some valid points.
 
Only thing that I have problem with is the fact that the op believes that it WB was truly 6B his quakes would have shattered the island. This is literally writer's intention. Why would we expect Oda to draw the entire island getting split to pieces when their are multiple pirates on it helping WB.
 
@Astral

I believe it because several trustworthy characters state that it's his intention to do so. Also the fact he summoned two tsunami waves to bury the island to begin the battle shows such an intent is consistent.

The writers intention is directly given to us by the characters several times over. Your argument is a non sequitur
 
1) The shockwave that Whitebeard created was made by using his Devil Fruit power, not his Haki.

2) I don't see why someone's Haki wouldn't scale to someone's physical stats? The point of Armament Haki is to enhanced the physical strength and durability of the user.

This is no different than Goku/Naruto/Gon/Seiya/Toriko/Ichigo using his Ki/Chakra/Nen/Cosmo/Appetite Energy/Reiryoku to enhanced their physical stats, Haki should be treated in the same way.

And if a Devil Fruit allow the user to generate attacks powerful enough to match someone who can use Haki to defend themself, then the Devil Fruit's AP scale to Haki and viceversa.

3) You're demading the 6-B feat to be considered outlier because Whitebeard's power isn't fully consistency, but there are quite a few problems in you're logic:

- You're assuming Whitebeard used the same amount of strength to perform all his feats (from creating the two mountain size tsunamies, to defeating Akainu with one attack), which i seriously doubt this is the case, since WB would just wasting energy when he doesn't needed.

- You're assuming all Whitebeard's attacks would have the same effect to the surrounding/characters, but WB should be capable to control the AoE of his shockwaves (at least for specific attacks), since we have see him do this during the war.
 
@Stefano

1. Yeah? That's my point.

2. Because Goken is a more akin to a shockwave or external suit of armor that in no way relies on the users physical statistics. It's an esoteric stat when used as Goken.

3a. ....yeah that's actually my point. Its inconsistent so shouldnt really scale since every attack is different in potency. So why would it scale to the Admirals since they didnt block the tsunami shockwave. You're agreeing with me on this point.

3b. It's a shockwave, he blasted apart Marineford whilst assaulting Akainu directly, we know its indiscriminate to a degree. Jinbe even comments on how all the WB pirates had to get out of the way when Luffy nearly gets hit
 
> 1) The shockwave that Whitebeard created was made by using his Devil Fruit power, not his Haki.

I think you misread something in the opening post. The OP states that Whitebeard's attack was his quake.
 
There are some issue I'd like to bring up, mainly with the Admirals ( namely all but Kuzan. ) having durability. Kuzan's case is understandable given his Devil Fruit ability allowing him to cause frostbite. On the other hand we currently have Akainu with durability via his magma, which doesn't make much sense because heat is a form of energy, which can be tanked through durability. Kizaru's case is a bit more iffy, the only thing supporting him having durability negation would be something on the lasers page which claims they ignore durability ( with no soruce.)


Also for the Whitebeard issue, he didn't go all out in Marineford. Remember, the Gura Gura is a Devil Fruit that does not discriminate, regardless if it's friend or foe. Whitebeard wouldn't have been able to go all out for several reasons, his sons being on the battlefiel and his health issues. For the most part Whitebeard was pretty casual during the summet war, the only time he really ever put a lot of effort in was against Akainu, but even then while he was fuming it's very doubtful that he went all out. Him not instantly destroying Marineford isn't an anti-feat for Whitebeard but rather an AoE Fallacy, a character dosen't need to be shown to destroy countries to be 6-B. Perfect example being Dragon Ball characters never flat out blowing up planets, stars, solar systems and so on while they attack. Also destroying Marineford itself while being grounded would be such a terrible idea for a Devil Fruit User. As soon as that island gives, everyone falls into the water and it's game over from there, which typically wouldn't be a bad idea but considering Whitebeard would be killing himself and his sons that wouldn't be the greatest idea.


In short, i absolutely agree with your issues with the Admirals but Whitebeard's feat should still be fine.
 
Xulrev said:
1. Yeah? That's my point.
Sorry, i thought you were saying that Whitebeard's shockwave was made by using Goken.

And yet, there i still see a problem with this argument, it was never stated that the Admirals where using Goken to stop that attack, so i'm not sure if this is the case.

3b. ....yeah that's actually my point. Its inconsistent so shouldnt really scale since every attack is different in potency. So why would it scale to the Admirals since they didnt block the tsunami shockwave. You're agreeing with me on this point.

But we have also see the Admirals fight him off during the entire Marineford Arc, where Whitebeard was most likely using just as much as power (if not more) as he was actually fighting seriously, while in the case of the tsunamies it was just a mere display of power.

3b. It's a shockwave, he blasted apart Marineford whilst assaulting Akainu directly, we know its indiscriminate to a degree. Jinbe even comments on how all the WB pirates had to get out of the way when Luffy nearly gets hit
But most of the destructive power of that blast was directed by Akainu, the destruction of the surrounding was the side effect of that attack.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
There are some issue I'd like to bring up, mainly with the Admirals ( namely all but Kuzan. ) having durability. Kuzan's case is understandable given his Devil Fruit ability allowing him to cause frostbite. On the other hand we currently have Akainu with durability via his magma, which doesn't make much sense because heat is a form of energy, which can be tanked through durability. Kizaru's case is a bit more iffy, the only thing supporting him having durability negation would be something on the lasers page which claims they ignore durability ( with no soruce.)
On this i have to agree, i find iffy the logic behind Akainu and Kizaru's Durability Negation, the reasoning behind could apply to all characters who can generate light based or magma based attacks.
 
Akainu's Durability Negation comes from his Vivre Card while Kizaru comes from the laser page.

Regarding the Haki stuff, I don't know what's the problem tbh. Busōshoku Haki is Busōshoku Haki, whether they applied to it their actual body to punch stuff or outside their body, it is the same amount of energy/fighting spirit/aura/life force/whatever being utilized. It is just a matter of applying it in a different form.

And the rest from the OP at the very top could fall under the AoE fallacy.
 
@Stefano

1. You would need to get force field generation removed from their profile since they have it for this feat, explicitly. So thats a no go argument.

2. Your argument thst it is 'likely' just as much power after Whitebeard had taken an immense amount of damage is shaky at best. He was impaled to begin the fight and suffered a heart attack and magma impalement halfway through after all. Spurious argumentation is spurious, and its a what if that doesnt take precedence over feats.

3. Thats actually a point that ties back to my OP: John Giant had the same thing happen for the shockwave that scales to the admirals. You either agree with me....or you agree with me
 
> Regarding the Haki stuff, I don't know what's the problem tbh. Busōshoku Haki is Busōshoku Haki, whether they applied to it their actual body to punch stuff or outside their body, it is the same amount of energy/fighting spirit/aura/life force/whatever being utilized.

Right now it is just a durability feat. I don't think we can say their Haki used offensively is just as powerful, and you couldn't scale their Logia abilities to their Haki anyway.
 
Damage3245 said:
Right now it is just a durability feat. I don't think we can say their Haki used offensively is just as powerful, and you couldn't scale their Logia abilities to their Haki anyway.
Well Rayleigh to explain that Armament Haki can be used for both defense and offense, and the Kuja Pirates are used as example as they could use their Armament Haki to make their arrows more powerful.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nqOq6w8m...in424o5UaTPcle26h8d2wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/012.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XEZRc5I1...mqhgwcyBLrE2o1ox98n2QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/013.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bd3R_XGd...YlsfK58fkwP5uuhtTkOlwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/014.jpg

While he never directly stated that Haki's defense equal Haki's offense, it does seen to be the case here, since characters with higher level of Haki tend to be both more durable and stronger (not just more durable), like with Cracker and Vergo.
 
@Stefano; I'm neutral on that point since as you say he doesn't directly state it - but for characters who scale to Aokiji's base physicals without Haki or to his ice manipulation then their scaling is still called into question by this thread.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
What characters scale to Kuzan's ice?
Doflamingo currently, and Marco's justifications reference Aokiji's ice a couple times.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Stefano; I'm neutral on that point since as you say he doesn't directly state it - but for characters who scale to Aokiji's base physicals without Haki or to his ice manipulation then their scaling is still called into question by this thread.
Maybe, but Aokiji still equally fought to Akainu for days, the same dude who could directly challenge to Whitebeard (who was serious fight, but not go all out), up to the point the latter started to get sick again.

So Aokiji's physical stats had to equal Akainu (with or without Haki), and his Devil Fruit's Attack Potency should also scale to his own Physical Strength as it should be able to damage characters of similar durability.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Maybe, but Aokiji still equally fought to Akainu for days, the same dude who could directly challenge to Whitebeard (who was serious fight, but not go all out), up to the point the latter started to get sick again. So Aokiji's physical stats had to equal Akainu (with or without Haki), and his Devil Fruit's Attack Potency should also scale to his own Physical Strength as it should be able to damage characters of similar durability.
Unfortunately for your point, both combatants have Durability Negation with their Devil Fruit's abilities, so this is an incorrect assertion on your behalf due to wiki-accepted abilities in the respective profiles
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Scaling Doffy to Kuzan is incredibly ******* flawed.
Do tell :) The only "flaw" that can be made up is that "Doflamingo is absolutely nowhere near the level of the Admirals" which is probably the biggest head-canon made up by the community.
 
Let's keep to the topic at hand: scaling Doffy to Kuzan via their singular interaction is factually flawed as I point out, due to Kuzan not having the AP to support his ice scaling, and due to having Durability Negation with said ice
 
I've only read the OP and not the comments yet and this stood out to me:

What we have, instead, is him scaling off of Akainu (who gets two-shot by Whitebeard) for durability and scaling to Akainu for his AP (whose main damage is Durability Negation anyway as officially accepted on his profile).

I feel like this alone should show why this scaling is incorrect and thus null.
 
So if I'm reading this right your suggestions are

  • Whitebeard's quakes vary in strength and are inconsistent
  • Haki shields don't scale to base durability
  • Akainu was rather casually defeated by Whitebeard and shouldn't scale
While I'm fully behind the first two points, the third is what's throwing me. Are you suggesting that Akainu ignores durability with haki as a means of not directly scaling?
 
@Qaw

Akainu ignores durability with his devils fruit power, thus shouldnt scale at all to Whitebeard. Also his only clash with Whitebeard doesnt include Whitebeards Quake powers being active so he cant meaningfully scale either way

Edit: as to the durability for Aokiji and Akainu, Whitebeards inconsistency is why their durability ought not scale, to address that in case I misunderstood
 
Well if his power, on here at least, is accepted as durability negation then yeah I don't see a major reason for him to scale to a full powered Whitebeard.
 
Akainu clashes with Whitebeard twice and the 2nd time they both use their devil fruits. Akainu also fights Whitebeard (offscreen) for a period of time and we don't see him nor wb receive injuries, meaning he's able to fight on par with wb. Regarding his defeat, he's returns like two chapters later and is in a good enough condition to fight Marco and other commanders. So two rage filled attacks from a blood lusted Whitebeard couldn't knock him unconscious or even significantly harm him, it made him bleed and that's it.

The durability negation stuff for Akainu doesn't make sense, heat = energy = ap. If other magma/fire using characters don't have DN then neither should he, he doesn't use some different version of magma
 
Akainu has durability negation, youd have to make a CRT removing it for that to be valid as an argument here
 
And my point regarding his durability? Taking two rage powered hits from wb and not being significantly/fatally wounded? The first attack he basically tanks as he's completely unphased and is able to counter attack straight away (bearing in mind first attack was a surprise attack from behind)
 
Hes....not unphased at all. And inconsistency in whitebeards quakes is still a point unaddressed
 
You get attacked and you're able to immediately attack back, how is that not at least partly unphased? Regardless you've ignored the first sentence there.

There's no inconsistency, what inconsistency are you talking about?
 
Whitebeard's quakes aren't very inconsistent, he doesn't necessarily need to destroy an entire country in order to be 6-B. AoE Fallacies and the fact that if Whitebeard did bust Marineford he would have killed everyone on the island including his sons.
 
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