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One Piece CRT: Kuzan Tiering Issues

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As a display of power, think about it like Whitebeard flexing on The Navy, the dude was even smirking the enitre time, said attack must have been restricted to an extent otherwise all of his crew would have died, that would be pretty counterintuitive right? The goal was to save Ace, not destroy the island of Marineford thus resulting in the death of everyone there.


Although that would be kinda funny tbh. Whitebeard just nuking the ******* island killing everyone and One Piece ends there.
 
It might be counterintuitive, but you're arguing against something that factually occured. He did the thing. You cant argue that he cares for lives much, hell even mid war his men said its THEIR duty to get out of Pops way when hes rampaging, not the other way around, and Jinbe chided Luffy for not paying attention.

Itd be funny alright though.

At base this is somewhat of a distraction from the base points made. The scaling is null and void truthfully and has too many issues muddying the waters
 
Whitebeard titled Marineford along with a good chunk of that ocean, if I recall correctly during that time Whitebeard was grealty weakened by the combined efforts of the Navy, wounds from the Admirals and several health issues. He did tell his sons to bounce but that's only after Ace died and gave the final order to his crew to escape, before he could even get a chance to use the Gura's full power he bite the dust.


Nah I totally agree, the Admirals scaling is a bit flawed at the moment. If someone manages to get the Durability negation removed then they could stay where they are but for different reasons obviously. At the very least it should be noted that the Colored Trio can takes hits from massively superior opponents without getting knocked out instantly.
 
I'm neutral for now, but may comment later.
 
This comment is gonna derail so hard LOL:

@Counters - Akainu only ever took 2 hits from WB, and both wounded him quite severely, so i don't think he scales beyond his current "1/3 WB" value for contributing to stopping his quake earlier. Also, Akainu and Aokiji both have obvious dura negating abilities if both are temperature related and they can control it to the point where they can vape/freeze flesh/bone respectively upon touch. All Akainu had to do to hurt WB was walk up and touch him with a magma fist, and he'll just melt right through his chest.

  • Also, WB told everyone to run the second Ace was saved, not after he died.
@Vio - Kind of hard to debate off-panel fights especially since we see both of them at a distance towards the end of their fight, and WB is just swatting his attacks aside. They did not clash twice btw: Akainu uses his foot to stop a wide-sweep from WB (Which didn't even utilize his DF from what we see), then he throws a magma-punch which WB circumvents with a quake punch, and the next time we see, Akainu is on the offense and WB is like "Lol" and slaps his attack dozens of meters to the side then mocks the poor boy. It's safe to say Akainu was using mid-ranged attacks the entire time and just kept his distance. We never see them go melee until WB had a heart attack and was left open to attack.

@Xulrev - To be fair, none of the attacks would have directly affected his subordinates as long as they just stayed away from him, which they knew to do.

  • The Tsunami: The alliance was not even at shore yet, and WB's crew was in close proximity to himself and thus would be protected by him (Pure speculation, but i doubt he'd just chuckle at his own "kids" getting crushed), and i'm sure Ace would not be submerged under water for any extensive period due to being high (Assuming the stand actually holds up, kek) and definitely could've taken the hit from the tsunami--the random officers and DF users would have been screwed though. Just an opinion, but he likely aimed to trim off all the fodder and most DF users so the battle would be easier. If Aokiji didn't intercept the attack, MANY marines would've been yeeted off the island, killed, or incap'd if they were a DF user.
  • The Tilt: I have to reach on this so hard, tbh. It just seemed so random, as if just to display his power to the viewer. I mean, the crew and allies were aware of WB's ability, and it could've been used to simply throw the enemy off and lower morale, but really... wtf, it seemed pretty detrimental to his own forced. The attack was so unnecessary to take out John Giant.
  • Scaffold Punch: I'm just hoping he was aiming for the supports and NOT Ace/Sengoku... Lol.
  • Island Split: It prevented a large amount of the marines from chasing his underlings, and i'm certain if BB didn't show up, one of the Admirals would have to deal with him, lowering the pressure on the rest of the crew/alliance.
Personal Note: Whitebeard is contradicting himself. If he valued his children's lives, he would've gone SOLO no matter what he had to do to force his children to stay put. In order to save Ace, he sacrificed hundreds of his sons and still failed in the end. It was basically all for nothing. He should've gone in, brought in ONE non-DF user who had excellent Kenbunshoku, then sank the island and had the said Haki user go and swim for Ace, and leave the marines to drown.

PROBLEM SOLVED. The only one's who'd survive are any non-DF user, anyone who can fly, or anyone who would have aid if they are a DF user, so: Garp, Hancock (via Salome), Doffy (Via flight), Mihawk, and all Vice Admirals. This is assuming Aokiji doesn't freeze the ocean and makes everyone fight on a giant block of ice.

Back on topic: Aokiji fought Akainu for 10 days, and they got eachother good, so idk why they wouldn't scale to eachother. They're both Haki users, so i'm sure DF attacks wouldn't be definitive in their encounter. All 3 Admirals blocked a quake from WB and weren't outright stomped by him in an actual fight, so... What's wrong with Aokiji scaling to Akainu and =or> 1/3 WB?
 
Xulrev said:
Unfortunately for your point, both combatants have Durability Negation with their Devil Fruit's abilities, so this is an incorrect assertion on your behalf due to wiki-accepted abilities in the respective profiles
Things can change, especially if there is a good reason, and the reason behind Durability Negation for Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji are still questionable for me.

- The Vice Card of Akainu never explicitly state that Akainu's Devil Fruit boasts the highest offensive power and that his magma can melt through many things, it simply description how his power work and his magma is no different described as different than normal magma, that's why this there is no real evidence for Durability Negation.

- For the Laser Page, it is never say that real lasers are capable to negate durability, because if this was the case then characters who can generate legittimate light attacks should be able to negate any kind of durability by default, but this isn't true, basically Kizaru doesn't have any good reason to possess Durability Negation

- And for Aokiji, i still yet to see a valid argument beside "he can freeze things", because again with this logic anyone with Ice Manipulation should possess Durability Negation by default, so unless Aokiji can reach Absolute Zero i don't think he should have Durability Negation.


Overall, the proof for Admirals having Durability Negation is clearly faulty.
 
From what I can tell there hasn't been a counter argument yet against editing the scaling justifications for characters who scale to Aokiji's ice / base physicals, which are namely Marco, Jozu and Doflamingo to my knowledge.
 
Damage3245 said:
From what I can tell there hasn't been a counter argument yet against editing the scaling justifications for characters who scale to Aokiji's ice / base physicals, which are namely Marco, Jozu and Doflamingo to my knowledge.
Jozu did prevent Aokiji from fighting WB, the latter seen confident enough to allow his son to fight the admiral without any back up and before Jozu was distracted (by WB's sickness) he was able to fought Aokiji to an apparent stalemate, and he was able to survive Aokiji's freezing power despire losing his arm.

And Marco had fought Kizaru and Akainu in different occasions (t the beginning of the war were he was able to kick Kizaru, and while saving Luffy by blocking Akainu's attack only to fail when Akainu was forced to use more strength in his attack).

The Top Yonko Commanders (Marco, Jozu, Vista and possible Ace) had be clearly potrayed as one of the few characters during the Arc who could put a good fight again the admirals, so the scaling for people like Marco and Jozu is more than legittimare.
 
`@Stefano; I'm not suggesting that the characters necessarily need to be fully downgraded but their current justifications don't support a Low 6-B scaling IMO.

Hitting a distracted Aokiji and causing minimal damage isn't a Low 6-B feat due what has been pointed out about his Haki in this thread.

Fighting him offscreen isn't great either when we don't see him injuring Aokiji at all.

Likewise Marco's attacks did no damage to the admirals either.
 
And for Doflamingo, yes his scaling to Aokiji had the weakest argument, yet we have also see him stopping Jozu with his strings and he was still physically strong enough to survive multiple blows from Gear 4th Luffy (while weakened by Law), and his Awakening did allow him to actually block Gear 4th's standard attacks.

So yes, scaling him to Aokiji is questionable, but he should still scale to Top Yonko Commanders to a degree, as he should still be either comparable or slightly below such characters.
 
Doflamingo is shaky especially his scaling to Gear 4th since it seems that he survived that long due to plot since Doflamingo states Luffy had sustained heavy damage pre Gear 4th and Luffy displayed he could oneshot the awakened strings with his head.
 
Damage3245 said:
Fighting him offscreen isn't great either when we don't see him injuring Aokiji at all.
Neither we see Jozu suffering any serious injure as well, meaning neither of the characters where able to seriously injure or fully overpower each other at that moment.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Neither we see Jozu suffering any serious injure as well, meaning neither of the characters where able to seriously injure or fully overpower each other at that moment.
Even if we remove Jozu's AP scaling to Low 6-B (which I'm in favor of) he still has his durability feat for scaling to Mihawk in his diamond form which would explain why Aokiji doesn't seriously injure him until later.
 
Doflamingo wasn't at his full health either, due of Law's Gamma Knife.

Yeah that's what I'm trying to say neither were at full strength they even say it before Gear 4th. But Doflamingo still got completely overwhelmed and pretty much lost to Gear 4th he outlasted it due to PIS since Luffy displayed he could dodge all the strings and bulldoze through them with just his head.
 
Damage3245 said:
Even if we remove Jozu's AP scaling to Low 6-B (which I'm in favor of) he still has his durability feat for scaling to Mihawk in his diamond form which would explain why Aokiji doesn't seriously injure him until later.
If Jozu's AP was below Low 6-B then he wouldn't have the strength to fought Aokiji and stop him from fighting WB, the admiral could just overpowered him and freezing him in a moment, without the need for him to be distracted like it happen.

The same could happen if you try to apply the same logic to other Top Yonko Commanders, as Marco wouldn't be capable to stop Akainu's first from killing Luffy or kick Kizaru to the ground.
 
> If Jozu's AP was below Low 6-B then he wouldn't have the strength to fought Aokiji and stop him from fighting WB, the admiral could just overpowered him and freezing him in a moment, without the need for him to be distracted like it happen.

Seeing as the fight was offscreen I don't think we can say that with certainity.

> as Marco wouldn't be capable to stop Akainu's first from killing Luffy or kick Kizaru to the ground.

I don't see how? Kizaru being really durable wouldn't necessarily stop him from being kicked down to the ground. Physical forces still affect him.
 
Insert creative name here 12 said:
Doflamingo is shaky especially his scaling to Gear 4th since it seems that he survived that long due to plot since Doflamingo states Luffy had sustained heavy damage pre Gear 4th and Luffy displayed he could oneshot the awakened strings with his head.
Gear 4th's AP scales from snapping Doffy's threads. Doffy's dura scales from taking hits from Gear 4th while being greatly injured in the first place (among other things).
 
Damage3245 said:
Seeing as the fight was offscreen I don't think we can say that with certainity.
This is just logic, the only moment we see Aokiji defeating Jozu was when he was distracted, so we can assume that Aokiji didn't had any opportunity to do such thing due of Jozu be strong enough to prevent such event.

Assuming Jozu was below Low 6-B, what prevented Aokiji to just hug him and freezing him in place, like he did with Robin and Luffy at the beginning of Water 7 Arc? For sure it wasn't his Durability.

Damage3245 said:
I don't see how? Kizaru being really durable wouldn't necessarily stop him from being kicked down to the ground. Physical forces still affect him.
Physical forces still affect him yes, but for Marco to kick down Kizaru would requided to use a lot of strength than he would use if done again a standard human.

I mean, do you think toddler kick your leg and a grown-up kick your leg would have the same effect? Absolute not.

A toddler's kick would be more of an annoyance, the grown-up's kick would hurt like hell.
 
> A toddler's kick would be more of an annoyance, the grown-up's kick would hurt like hell.

Sure but either way Marco's kick didn't hurt Kizaru. Pushing him back isn't a significant feat.

> This is just logic, the only moment we see Aokiji defeating Jozu was when he was distracted, so we can assume that Aokiji didn't had any opportunity to do such thing due of Jozu be strong enough to prevent such event.

I'd rather go with as few assumptions as possible. What we know about Jozu well enough is that he's fast and tough, we don't need to also assume that his AP is what gave Aokiji difficulties.
 
To be honest, the statements here made against Doflamingo are opinions that "I think he is below the Top Commanders and Admirals", but there's simply nothing to support the opposition in the slightest (I mean, I fully believe Aokiji > Doflamingo straight up):

We see him make a fool out of characters who fight Akainu and Aokiji, and he also takes a hit from Aokiji after dismissing his warning, and he straight up threatens to fight Sengoku in his own house, and he also beat Gear 4th Luffy in a battle of attrition--the same form that could injure Katakuri (if we're scaling top commanders to eachother...) and actually put a fight against him while damaged quite heavily.

Even if the general consensus (Which is still an opinion, not fact) is that Doflamingo is < or << Admirals, he's got a number of feats against x characters to suggest he is at least somewhat a capable threat if not straight-up comparable to them.

  • You guys are legit trying to suggest Doffy is High 7-A, yet easily broke Aokiji's ice while Jozu was helpless as he was being gradually frozen by Aokiji, yet he is still scaled to Low 6-B..
@Damage - To be fair, causing Aokiji to have blood coming from his mouth (Unless the attack cut his lip or something) suggests he internally affected him to some degree with the hit (It was a body blow, too). I don't consider it to be light damage, but nothing spectacular. I still think he should scale.
 
> and he also takes a hit from Aokiji after dismissing his warning

> To be fair, causing Aokiji to have blood coming from his mouth (Unless the attack cut his lip or something) suggests he internally affected him to some degree with the hit (It was a body blow, too). I don't consider it to be light damage, but nothing spectacular. I still think he should scale.

The basis of this thread goes against these feats as they're scaling to Aokiji's base physicals and ice manipulation.

Aokiji helping block an earthquake with Haki doesn't mean his ice attack on Doflamingo is likely Low 6-B, nor is his durability when hit by Jozu definitely Low 6-B.
 
I see, well without going into details, if the Admirals are being downgraded, Probably best to go with "At least High 7-A+ (Actually think it's 6-C now... gonna have to check on that), Possibly Low 6-B" unless the latter is completely debunked at this point.

the low end for scaling at least comparable to Doflamingo (Seeing as how Doffy walked off from Aokiji... clearly wouldn't be a battle worth fighting given his situation since he could, you know, be wounded if not die), the high end for scaling to blocking WB's quake via Haki and that it's uncertain if the user's physical abilities are that drastically below their Haki output.

That means the high tiers (Top Commanders, Doffy, Luffy) would all simply be High 7-A+ (Again, think it's 6-C if we're using the 3x multiplier from Gear 2nd).

My only issue is that Akainu's body wasn't blown to bits by WB, who'd theoretically be thousands of times stronger than him. He was badly hurt, but he wasn't flattened. He'd be in pieces from the first blow if WB were really 2000+ times stronger instead of just ~3.
 
Gear 4th's AP scales from snapping Doffy's threads. Doffy's dura scales from taking hits from Gear 4th while being greatly injured in the first place (among other things).

He took a total of 5 hits before he got KO'd and he was totally outmatched the whole fight.
 
CinCameron20 said:
My only issue is that Akainu's body wasn't blown to bits by WB, who'd theoretically be thousands of times stronger than him. He was badly hurt, but he wasn't flattened. He'd be in pieces from the first blow if WB were really 2000+ times stronger instead of just ~3.
As the OP pointed out, Whitebeard's quakes are pretty inconsistent in what they're capable of. The amount of damage he does to his surroundings should be far higher whenever he is unleashing his quakes and this isn't just AoE fallacy as most of his attacks are based on affecting the area around him instead of concentrating his attacks in a single spot.

I believe it would be far simpler if we declared Whitebeard's tsunami quakes to be outliers and instead just scale Whitebeard and the other Yonkou above the Admirals.
 
I have not once stated that the Admirals should be beneath Yonko Commanders, for the record, let that be clear. My personal, off-wiki opinion is that the Admirals are near-Yonko threats, but I'm arguing what is provable with feats per wiki guidelines in this thread.

1. Kuzan has no justification for his ice-generation being equivalent to his Goken Haki.

2. Kuzan has no justification for his base physicals being equivalent to his Goken Haki

3. Resulting from 1&2, anyone scaling to Kuzan for either reason needs their justifications reworked, and based in feats, to explain why they sit at a tier near the Admirals

4. Trying to use Whitebeard's quakes to circumvent this and/or utilize his brief clashing vs Akainu to justify multi-chain scaling (WB -> Akainu -> Aokiji -> [X person]) is faulty due to Durability Negation Devil Fruit's powers and lack of concrete physicals vs physicals feats

4a. It is further faulty due to how absurdly inconsistent Whitebeard's DF power usage has been shown to be; it is not AoE fallacy whatsoever to claim this due to objective, explicit instances of Whitebeard's own crew stating that Pops cannot control the AoE carnage that he inflicts when going all out so it's on them to get out of his way

No argumentation in this thread thus far has decried any of the core issues herein, with most of this being 'Okay but what-if' comments or 'Well I don't believe that' comments.

Nowhere have I stated I simply disbelieve Doflamingo is of X tier. Nowhere have I stated I simply disbelieve Jozu is of X tier. I am simply stating objective fact from explicit feats, and the wiki values such things for accuracy's sake. Our headcanon and personal feelings don't matter here, so everyone needs to stop even remotely focusing on those topics and engage the arguments I present with counter-evidence based in feats, or accept that the logic is consistent and valid.
 
I am not too into this as a whole, but I was just passing by to say quickly, I really hope nobody here seriously attempted to say heat is just energy so is just something tanked normally by durability.

Perhaps that was already debunked but just... please no. That's dumb. That's, I really hope nobody is arguing that's a thing.
 
@Lancelot

I don't think anyone here has argued that whatsoever, or at least if they have I glossed over it.
 
"The durability negation stuff for Akainu doesn't make sense, heat = energy = ap. If other magma/fire using characters don't have DN then neither should he, he doesn't use some different version of magma"

"On the other hand we currently have Akainu with durability via his magma, which doesn't make much sense because heat is a form of energy, which can be tanked through durability."

"On this i have to agree, i find iffy the logic behind Akainu and Kizaru's Durability Negation, the reasoning behind could apply to all characters who can generate light based or magma based attacks."

"And for Aokiji, i still yet to see a valid argument beside "he can freeze things", because again with this logic anyone with Ice Manipulation should possess Durability Negation by default, so unless Aokiji can reach Absolute Zero i don't think he should have Durability Negation."

Believe me, you missed it.

I'll just say this straight up - this is dumb, incompressively so. Heat and kinetic energy is not the same, they aren't handled the same, they don't interact with things the same. Some of the softest metal on earth deal with heat excellently while some of the strongest metals are crap at dealing with heat. Higher durability has never been able to let you deal with heat just because, never has and never will. There's a whole other CRT about this even.

And no, Ice Manipulation doesn't get you durability negation because punching someone with a piece of ice doesn't negate durability. Freezing something, taking energy away from it's molecules, does, because durability doesn't let you resist energy being added or taken from your molecules. Not all Ice Manipulators freeze, or can freeze, people, they just make ice. Kuzan evidently freezes people as has been shown a million times.

Don't argue this, you will be arguing that light can bend without the effect of gravity fluctuating or something even worse, which is dumb. Let's not please.
 
Oh so I just glossed over it because it was too silly to engage and was another CRT (that would be laughed away) altogther. Thank you for the correction, and apologies for the initial dismissal of your contribution, I was mistaken it seems!
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
I'll just say this straight up - this is dumb, incompressively so. Heat and kinetic energy is not the same, they aren't handled the same, they don't interact with things the same. Some of the softest metal on earth deal with heat excellently while some of the strongest metals are crap at dealing with heat. Higher durability has never been able to let you deal with heat just because, never has and never will. There's a whole other CRT about this even.
Are you going to argue that we cannot scale heat based feats with standard kinetic energy based feats and viceversa, that we had to put them as two different categories of Durability/AP? I find this to be quite dumb.

Do you want me to believe that if i can tank a vulcanic explosion or a nuke, that i could still be killed by a running truck or an average lightning bolt?

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
And no, Ice Manipulation doesn't get you durability negation because punching someone with a piece of ice doesn't negate durability. Freezing something, taking energy away from it's molecules, does, because durability doesn't let you resist energy being added or taken from your molecules. Not all Ice Manipulators freeze, or can freeze, people, they just make ice. Kuzan evidently freezes people as has been shown a million times.
And yet, there are characters here had display the ability to freeze living begins/objects and yet they still lack such ability in their profiles.

Mr Freeze with his pistol, Superman with his Freezing Breath, Weiss Schnee with his Ice Dust Elsa with her power, Mei (Overwatch) with her pistol, Ice King with his power and probably many other.
 
If they don't some way of being scaled to physical attacks, yes that's exactly what I am saying and what has been mostly agreed with by Dargoo and other Staff in an adjacent thread. If you have any misgivings turn them there and not here - we already did this since forever ago.

... I am honestly a bit annoyed how thoughtless your examples are, but that may be due to my lack of sleep. Have you completely forgotten volcano eruptions and nukes aren't only heat energy? Or that the lion's share of what we calc out of them is unrelated to the the heat but to the explosion? How hot the fireball is and how powerful the explosion are different things.

Then that was either the mistake of the people doing the profile or, for whatever reason, those characters freezing people never ends up lethal (which wouldn't surprise me since this is fiction...). Past screw ups don't justify new ones.
 
If I recall tanking the surface of the sun literally requires 8-C durability and I recall several calc group members stating that's the way we treat heat.
 
That is merely an example of how things work different from how people think, since being inside or oin the surface of the sun is not a big deal as the amount of energy the sun outputs and the amount you actually get subjected to because of your size is completely different.

And I would honestly ask you to take a crash course on how heat in general works. 8-C durability doesn't make you immune to 5000 degree heat. Is the very same issue as lifting and striking strength, both things really don't work similar at all so the best we can give is superhuman to high tiers without any lifting strength feats.
 
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