-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Let's decide who is the weakest 2-C of this site
- Thread starter Enryu_The_Red_Tower
- Start date
- Status
- 40,473
- 12,954
Context would matter if we weren't talking about a universal ability. The Hit fight took him the utmost concentration to sense them. That's what neither of you are understanding. You're both saying Goku can sense anything in the entire gigantic universe in Dragon Ball, anything at all, and yet taking on less than ten people or someone being well beneath him significantly is enough to throw it off whack.
But again, not that it matters since my argument doesn't hinge on that.
Now for an actual debate, what's stopping Lucario from timing out Gogeta when aura sensing let's him see every move before Gogeta makes it, or hitting Gogeta with Toxic which is enough to take him out incredibly shortly. The vote everyone's FRA'ing is just listing powers without elaboration, which is frowned upon. Flight? Sure, that's good, but Saiyan pride and time limit isn't going to let Gogeta abuse that as he's not one to recuperate in the air or anything. Danmaku? Also an advantage but Goku not Vegeta just spam beams unless sufficiently enraged like Vegeta was against Frieza. Paralysis procts the double power of Facade. As if Gogeta would ever use BFR. Internal detonation doesn't work on people on your level. Gogeta's barriers aren't like 17s that protect you from damage but they stop poison. Which would actually help here if Gogeta knew it was poison Lucario is emitting.
But again, not that it matters since my argument doesn't hinge on that.
Now for an actual debate, what's stopping Lucario from timing out Gogeta when aura sensing let's him see every move before Gogeta makes it, or hitting Gogeta with Toxic which is enough to take him out incredibly shortly. The vote everyone's FRA'ing is just listing powers without elaboration, which is frowned upon. Flight? Sure, that's good, but Saiyan pride and time limit isn't going to let Gogeta abuse that as he's not one to recuperate in the air or anything. Danmaku? Also an advantage but Goku not Vegeta just spam beams unless sufficiently enraged like Vegeta was against Frieza. Paralysis procts the double power of Facade. As if Gogeta would ever use BFR. Internal detonation doesn't work on people on your level. Gogeta's barriers aren't like 17s that protect you from damage but they stop poison. Which would actually help here if Gogeta knew it was poison Lucario is emitting.
- 21,390
- 2,978
https://youtu.be/9SypIwRLg_Q?t=159
First instance of Danmaku in combat
https://youtu.be/9SypIwRLg_Q?t=321
Second instance of Danmaku
I don't think Gogeta was ever enraged throughout this entire fight.
First instance of Danmaku in combat
https://youtu.be/9SypIwRLg_Q?t=321
Second instance of Danmaku
I don't think Gogeta was ever enraged throughout this entire fight.
- 3,307
- 2,653
Goku can sense anything in the entire gigantic universe in Dragon Ball, anything at all,
No, I'm not. All I said was that Gogeta's sensory range would be vastly superior to Lucario, due to having universal range. Range does not equate to sensitivity, which can be blotted out by suppressing your energy beneath a person's senses. Gohan, for example, had to power up to Super Saiyan to even be sensed by Goku on the other end of the universe. Albeit, if Lucario can't suppress its power Goku should be able to sense it regardless of location.
Both instances of Goku being sneak attacked was one, being sneak attacked by someone vastly weaker than him that he was unaware of, and two, being grabbed when he was in the middle of fighting other people. Neither of which are applicable to this context.
what's stopping Lucario from timing out Gogeta when aura sensing let's him see every move before Gogeta makes it,
Provide context for Lucario (Pokemon 7) to be capable of it. And don't cite Sir Aaron's Lucario, that Lucario was actively trained by an Aura Guardian to use Aura sensing to that extent.
Gogeta with Toxic which is enough to take him out incredibly shortly.
...Somebody already cited Goku using a barrier aura across his entire body to nullify poisons. It's unlikely to work if Gogeta can react.
Flight? Sure, that's good, but Saiyan pride and time limit isn't going to let Gogeta abuse that
Gogeta hasn't displayed any issues with killing his opponents or using advantages, and I'm not sure why you think he would. It's sure as hell isn't in-character for Goku or Vegeta to actively neglect using abilities because 'it wouldn't be fair'. Provide some reasoning why you think Gogeta wouldn't aerial bomb Lucario to death.
Danmaku? Also an advantage but Goku not Vegeta just spam beams unless sufficiently enraged like Vegeta was against Frieza.
Gogeta was spamming Danmaku against Broly and isn't Goku OR Vegeta. You seem to misunderstand the fact that fusion creates an entirely new being by using Goku and Vegeta as components.
Paralysis procts the double power of Facade
Cool, can Lucario use it while completely frozen in place?
As if Gogeta would ever use BFR
Characters are in-character but willing to kill. Gogeta will use instant transmission if he is forced to.
Internal detonation doesn't work on people on your level.
.I'll concede on that for now, due to verse equalization rules (although I question if Lucario would have the energy capacity to resist Gogeta's huge Ki. Last I checked, Pokemon aren't fueled by how much Aura they have so...meh)
Gogeta's barriers aren't like 17s that protect you from damage but they stop poison.
...No. Did you watch the Broly movie? Gogeta used barriers on reaction multiple times against Broly's ki blasts.
No, I'm not. All I said was that Gogeta's sensory range would be vastly superior to Lucario, due to having universal range. Range does not equate to sensitivity, which can be blotted out by suppressing your energy beneath a person's senses. Gohan, for example, had to power up to Super Saiyan to even be sensed by Goku on the other end of the universe. Albeit, if Lucario can't suppress its power Goku should be able to sense it regardless of location.
Both instances of Goku being sneak attacked was one, being sneak attacked by someone vastly weaker than him that he was unaware of, and two, being grabbed when he was in the middle of fighting other people. Neither of which are applicable to this context.
what's stopping Lucario from timing out Gogeta when aura sensing let's him see every move before Gogeta makes it,
Provide context for Lucario (Pokemon 7) to be capable of it. And don't cite Sir Aaron's Lucario, that Lucario was actively trained by an Aura Guardian to use Aura sensing to that extent.
Gogeta with Toxic which is enough to take him out incredibly shortly.
...Somebody already cited Goku using a barrier aura across his entire body to nullify poisons. It's unlikely to work if Gogeta can react.
Flight? Sure, that's good, but Saiyan pride and time limit isn't going to let Gogeta abuse that
Gogeta hasn't displayed any issues with killing his opponents or using advantages, and I'm not sure why you think he would. It's sure as hell isn't in-character for Goku or Vegeta to actively neglect using abilities because 'it wouldn't be fair'. Provide some reasoning why you think Gogeta wouldn't aerial bomb Lucario to death.
Danmaku? Also an advantage but Goku not Vegeta just spam beams unless sufficiently enraged like Vegeta was against Frieza.
Gogeta was spamming Danmaku against Broly and isn't Goku OR Vegeta. You seem to misunderstand the fact that fusion creates an entirely new being by using Goku and Vegeta as components.
Paralysis procts the double power of Facade
Cool, can Lucario use it while completely frozen in place?
As if Gogeta would ever use BFR
Characters are in-character but willing to kill. Gogeta will use instant transmission if he is forced to.
Internal detonation doesn't work on people on your level.
.I'll concede on that for now, due to verse equalization rules (although I question if Lucario would have the energy capacity to resist Gogeta's huge Ki. Last I checked, Pokemon aren't fueled by how much Aura they have so...meh)
Gogeta's barriers aren't like 17s that protect you from damage but they stop poison.
...No. Did you watch the Broly movie? Gogeta used barriers on reaction multiple times against Broly's ki blasts.
- 3,307
- 2,653
Question. Do Standard Battle Assumptions forbid the use of the Kaio-Ken technique? Gogeta's profile lists it as one of his abilities, so I'm questioning if he can use it.
- 21,390
- 2,978
It's in his arsenal so it is possible for him to use it. You will probably argue and not get any agreements on if it would be in character for him to use it, considering Cal is saying he won't even do the things that Gogeta has literally done on screen(in reference to Danmaku).
ProudLearner
She/Her- 1,232
- 443
He should be able to use Evolution too.
KK normaly is a x2 boost which I don't think it would do much of a strain on Blue Gogeta's fusion.
KK normaly is a x2 boost which I don't think it would do much of a strain on Blue Gogeta's fusion.
- 10,758
- 6,491
Flashback to every instance of "it can't effect him", "he effects this thing" I've ever witnessedAKM sama said:
- 3,307
- 2,653
So if Gogeta gets hit with a Toxic he may be inclined to go X2 or higher to try and finish the fight instantly, rather than draw it out.
- 4,816
- 2,535
- Thread starter
- #52
GyroNutz said:
- 10,758
- 6,491
- 16,963
- 4,865
>Provide context for Lucario (Pokemon 7) to be capable of it. And don't cite Sir Aaron's Lucario, that Lucario was actively trained by an Aura Guardian to use Aura sensing to that extent.
Uh, what? Jumping in for a second, when was it ever stated that Sir Aaron trained Lucario to use Aura Sensing to that extent? That is nothing but headcanon. Sir Aaron simply just trained Lucario to use its Aura better than it naturally already can.
Aura sensing is something thats naturally given to every Lucario period, as proven here- https://jb2448.info/picture.php?/4653/category/919.
Uh, what? Jumping in for a second, when was it ever stated that Sir Aaron trained Lucario to use Aura Sensing to that extent? That is nothing but headcanon. Sir Aaron simply just trained Lucario to use its Aura better than it naturally already can.
Aura sensing is something thats naturally given to every Lucario period, as proven here- https://jb2448.info/picture.php?/4653/category/919.
- 3,307
- 2,653
Sir Aaron showed and taught Lucario to use its aura to dodge log traps. I'd have to go check and see the specifics but I'm relatively certain that Lucario was unable to do the same feat without his training. I would also note that Riley is one of the few people capable of using aura, so it's possible that he taught his Lucario similarly.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Also, isn't that from Adventures? Would it have any bearing on Pokemon 7? After all, I don't think Adventures has much weight to the games or even the anime regarding canonicity. Maybe Pokemon 7 has the same author?
- 15,920
- 2,694
Gogeta FRA. Even a baseline Dragon Ball character can win matches, cool.
- 40,473
- 12,954
Again, counter aura sensing. How can Gogeta even hit Lucario when every Lucario can read the thoughts and movements of an opponent before they make it, alongside precog? Counter Toxic. How's Gogeta going to last even a minute under the effects of toxic poison, which gets exponentially worse every turn. Counter Water Pulse. What's Gogeta going to do when confused? Lucario doesn't have to worry about Gogeta dodging because he knows where Gogeta will move before Gogeta does it. An extended fight doesn't benefits Gogeta for many reasons. Unlike against Broly, Lucario will be able to take Gogeta's attacks due to being on his level. Gogeta will only last so long in Blue. As we see in Gotenks, SSJ boosters severely limit the time one can spend fused. Kaio Ken or Evolution if he dares to try it is going to make that even worse.
I'll admit being wrong for Danmaku though. I also hate that's what we use for that ability...
I'll admit being wrong for Danmaku though. I also hate that's what we use for that ability...
- 53
- 20
Do you not know what PIS is? Also, Goku has sensed normal humans before, he could easily sense Lucario.The real cal howard said:
- 40,473
- 12,954
My. Argument. Doesn't. Hinge. On. Goku. Sensing. Lucario. I don't care if Goku has so good sensing that he can see Lucario's organs. I never contested that he couldn't sense Lucario. What I did contest that had nothing to do with the match is Goku having universal sensing and being incapable of being blindsided.
- 40,473
- 12,954
Snip
Goku didn't nullify poisons already in his body. He put up a barrier to prevent hem from affecting him in the first place. If he gets hit by poison inducement and his barriers aren't up, he's getting poisoned.
Show me a single time Goku or Vegeta have ever aerial bombed someone to death. And the "new being" argument is only in non-canon material. Fusion Reborn and GT.
Broly was able to break out of paralysis, and he didn't have an insane power advantage over Goku yet. A 2x boosted move is more than enough to break out of paralysis.
BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they'd clearly use it right away.
Goku didn't nullify poisons already in his body. He put up a barrier to prevent hem from affecting him in the first place. If he gets hit by poison inducement and his barriers aren't up, he's getting poisoned.
Show me a single time Goku or Vegeta have ever aerial bombed someone to death. And the "new being" argument is only in non-canon material. Fusion Reborn and GT.
Broly was able to break out of paralysis, and he didn't have an insane power advantage over Goku yet. A 2x boosted move is more than enough to break out of paralysis.
BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they'd clearly use it right away.
- 21,390
- 2,978
"Characters are in-character but willing to kill. Gogeta will use instant transmission if he is forced to." -Cryo
"BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they'd clearly use it right away."-Cal's response
???
"BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they'd clearly use it right away."-Cal's response
???
- 40,473
- 12,954
If he believes it would be a factor in the fight, he believes that Gogeta would use it despite BFR'ing once to stop a planet bust.
- 3,307
- 2,653
counter aura sensing. How can Gogeta even hit Lucario when every Lucario can read the thoughts and movements of an opponent before they make it, alongside precog?
1. The scan that Kukui provided has Riley explain that sensing doesn't mean a damned thing to Lucario if their opponent can move faster or if they have no way to counter the opponent. Lucario has no real method of dealing with Danmaku + Flight and Gogeta, if pushed into a corner, can use the Kaio-Ken to blitz Lucario. Gogeta can also get the drop on Lucario with Instant Transmission at least once.
2. Sir Aaron's Lucario had to undergo specialised training under Sir Aaron, a powerful and wise Aura Guardian, to be capable of dodging logs attached to rope. Provide evidence that Lucario (Pokemon 7) has undergone the same training or has the same sensitivity with Aura.
3. Can you provide some feats regarding Lucario's precognition? Hard to tell what exactly it can do without an idea of how advanced its precognition is.
Counter Toxic. How's Gogeta going to last even a minute under the effects of toxic poison, which gets exponentially worse every turn.
1. Poison barrier. Gogeta can react to Lucario's attacks and has the combined experience of Goku and Vegeta. It's not farfetched to imagine him using a barrier when seeing Lucario trying to touch him with an unknown technique. Protect, a barrier move in Pokemon, can nullify moves like Toxic so even Gogeta's basic reactionary barriers could block Lucario's Toxic.
2. If Gogeta starts to grow weaker due to poison, he will simply use the Kaio-Ken to finish the battle or use his aura to overwhelm Lucario (See Goku vs Hit 2: Electric Boogloo and Vegeta nuking the Time Chamber). Gohan has also displayed the ability to fight, and defeat, a poison user while poisoned, so Gogeta could likely do the same due to Gohan being an inexperienced and unskilled fighter (see Krillin stomping Gohan with tournament rulings).
3. Does Poison get worse per turn in the games? I honestly don't remember it working that way mechanically.
Counter Water Pulse. What's Gogeta going to do when confused?
1. That has a small chance of occurring (20%)
2. Gogeta can just explode his power.
Lucario doesn't have to worry about Gogeta dodging because he knows where Gogeta will move before Gogeta does it.
See what I already said regarding Lucario's reactions at the top of my post.
An extended fight doesn't benefits Gogeta for many reasons. Unlike against Broly, Lucario will be able to take Gogeta's attacks due to being on his level.
As far as we know, Gogeta has 30 minutes to fight with (Vegito Blue only defused due to Final Kamehameha. We have no indication that Blue drains the timer notably, infact Blue is noted for having excellent Ki Control for use with Kaio-Ken, so it likely doesn't hurt the timer like a terribly unstable form like Super Saiyan 3). If Gogeta is pressured due to his timer, he may just use Kaio-Ken or Instant Transmission to try and win in one move.
Kaio Ken or Evolution if he dares to try it is going to make that even worse.
Not really. Vegeta can use Evolution after nearly dying and being completely wasted from Final Explosion, it's clearly an easy form to maintain which means it won't influence the timer much. Kaio-Ken is up to debate.
Fusion timer is lessened by the energy of the user being wasted such as Super Saiyan 3 being insanely draining or Vegito defusing due to using Final Kamehameha. It has no relation to the timer. If you believed such things it would bring into question why Vegito and Gotenks can even use Super Saiyan when fused.
1. The scan that Kukui provided has Riley explain that sensing doesn't mean a damned thing to Lucario if their opponent can move faster or if they have no way to counter the opponent. Lucario has no real method of dealing with Danmaku + Flight and Gogeta, if pushed into a corner, can use the Kaio-Ken to blitz Lucario. Gogeta can also get the drop on Lucario with Instant Transmission at least once.
2. Sir Aaron's Lucario had to undergo specialised training under Sir Aaron, a powerful and wise Aura Guardian, to be capable of dodging logs attached to rope. Provide evidence that Lucario (Pokemon 7) has undergone the same training or has the same sensitivity with Aura.
3. Can you provide some feats regarding Lucario's precognition? Hard to tell what exactly it can do without an idea of how advanced its precognition is.
Counter Toxic. How's Gogeta going to last even a minute under the effects of toxic poison, which gets exponentially worse every turn.
1. Poison barrier. Gogeta can react to Lucario's attacks and has the combined experience of Goku and Vegeta. It's not farfetched to imagine him using a barrier when seeing Lucario trying to touch him with an unknown technique. Protect, a barrier move in Pokemon, can nullify moves like Toxic so even Gogeta's basic reactionary barriers could block Lucario's Toxic.
2. If Gogeta starts to grow weaker due to poison, he will simply use the Kaio-Ken to finish the battle or use his aura to overwhelm Lucario (See Goku vs Hit 2: Electric Boogloo and Vegeta nuking the Time Chamber). Gohan has also displayed the ability to fight, and defeat, a poison user while poisoned, so Gogeta could likely do the same due to Gohan being an inexperienced and unskilled fighter (see Krillin stomping Gohan with tournament rulings).
3. Does Poison get worse per turn in the games? I honestly don't remember it working that way mechanically.
Counter Water Pulse. What's Gogeta going to do when confused?
1. That has a small chance of occurring (20%)
2. Gogeta can just explode his power.
Lucario doesn't have to worry about Gogeta dodging because he knows where Gogeta will move before Gogeta does it.
See what I already said regarding Lucario's reactions at the top of my post.
An extended fight doesn't benefits Gogeta for many reasons. Unlike against Broly, Lucario will be able to take Gogeta's attacks due to being on his level.
As far as we know, Gogeta has 30 minutes to fight with (Vegito Blue only defused due to Final Kamehameha. We have no indication that Blue drains the timer notably, infact Blue is noted for having excellent Ki Control for use with Kaio-Ken, so it likely doesn't hurt the timer like a terribly unstable form like Super Saiyan 3). If Gogeta is pressured due to his timer, he may just use Kaio-Ken or Instant Transmission to try and win in one move.
Kaio Ken or Evolution if he dares to try it is going to make that even worse.
Not really. Vegeta can use Evolution after nearly dying and being completely wasted from Final Explosion, it's clearly an easy form to maintain which means it won't influence the timer much. Kaio-Ken is up to debate.
Fusion timer is lessened by the energy of the user being wasted such as Super Saiyan 3 being insanely draining or Vegito defusing due to using Final Kamehameha. It has no relation to the timer. If you believed such things it would bring into question why Vegito and Gotenks can even use Super Saiyan when fused.
- 21,390
- 2,978
But you're saying that the character would use it right away which is the opposite of what Cryo is saying.The real cal howard said:
- 3,307
- 2,653
Goku didn't nullify poisons already in his body. He put up a barrier to prevent hem from affecting him in the first place. If he gets hit by poison inducement and his barriers aren't up, he's getting poisoned.
Cool. Gogeta can still negate Toxic from even happening in the first place, if he just uses a barrier to deflect a special attack with unknown effects/abilities.
Show me a single time Goku or Vegeta have ever aerial bombed someone to death. And the "new being" argument is only in non-canon material. Fusion Reborn and GT.
This isnt Goku OR Vegeta, this is Gogeta! It's over, Cal! I've come for you!
Gogeta canonically uses aerial bombing in-character. The only reason Broly survived is due to:
Broly was able to break out of paralysis, and he didn't have an insane power advantage over Goku yet. A 2x boosted move is more than enough to break out of paralysis.
Cool. Lucario doesn't have Ki, has no training In Ki and Broly is a freakish super mutant that learned God Bind after seeing it once. They aren't even remotely equivalent in skill-level.
BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they'd clearly use it right away.
Not relevant. Take it up with those threads if BFR wasn't noted and argued. I've even argued Gogeta would use it when pressured into finishing the fight quickly, not that he would use it instantly.
Cool. Gogeta can still negate Toxic from even happening in the first place, if he just uses a barrier to deflect a special attack with unknown effects/abilities.
Show me a single time Goku or Vegeta have ever aerial bombed someone to death. And the "new being" argument is only in non-canon material. Fusion Reborn and GT.
This isnt Goku OR Vegeta, this is Gogeta! It's over, Cal! I've come for you!
Gogeta canonically uses aerial bombing in-character. The only reason Broly survived is due to:
- Adapting to Gogeta's power
- Using barriers
- Flight
Broly was able to break out of paralysis, and he didn't have an insane power advantage over Goku yet. A 2x boosted move is more than enough to break out of paralysis.
Cool. Lucario doesn't have Ki, has no training In Ki and Broly is a freakish super mutant that learned God Bind after seeing it once. They aren't even remotely equivalent in skill-level.
BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they'd clearly use it right away.
Not relevant. Take it up with those threads if BFR wasn't noted and argued. I've even argued Gogeta would use it when pressured into finishing the fight quickly, not that he would use it instantly.
- 40,473
- 12,954
Aura. Read a Pokédex entry. If you were getting on my case on seeing the Broly movie (I only saw it on bootleg give me a break ovo), the least you can do is do me the same courtesy and read Lucario's Pokédex entries. Heck, the scan of Riley explaining shows a Pokédex entry from the games.
Toxic. Only Bad Poison (poison brought about by Toxic, Poison Fang, or a Toxic Orb) does. Why would Gogeta just assume a random technique is poison based? Between combating Lucario, he shouldn't have that level of caution about random spores. Sure barriers can block it but it's not like Lucario is incapable of figuring out when Gogeta will barrier or not due to aura sense. I'll get to Kaio Ken later but aura explosion has zero bearing here. Something tells me you're going to go into anti-hax with that bit and I'm not going to put up with that.
Water Pulse. That activating is way more likely than Gogeta ever BFR'ing yet you still find that to be a factor. And how would Gogeta exploding his power even help?
Extended fight. One, we do not have confirmation that the Final Kamehameha caused defusion. Blue is a muuuuuuuuch more powerful form than SSJ3 and we have confirmation that the more power means quicker timeout. Saying otherwise is completely against the source material. This goes double for Evolution and Kaio Ken. Vegeta doesn't have to worry about defusing after using SSJBE, Gogeta does. And accelerating the timer doesn't mean the timer is automatically up.
Gogeta can't oneshot when using KK. I'm not entertaining that.
Toxic. Only Bad Poison (poison brought about by Toxic, Poison Fang, or a Toxic Orb) does. Why would Gogeta just assume a random technique is poison based? Between combating Lucario, he shouldn't have that level of caution about random spores. Sure barriers can block it but it's not like Lucario is incapable of figuring out when Gogeta will barrier or not due to aura sense. I'll get to Kaio Ken later but aura explosion has zero bearing here. Something tells me you're going to go into anti-hax with that bit and I'm not going to put up with that.
Water Pulse. That activating is way more likely than Gogeta ever BFR'ing yet you still find that to be a factor. And how would Gogeta exploding his power even help?
Extended fight. One, we do not have confirmation that the Final Kamehameha caused defusion. Blue is a muuuuuuuuch more powerful form than SSJ3 and we have confirmation that the more power means quicker timeout. Saying otherwise is completely against the source material. This goes double for Evolution and Kaio Ken. Vegeta doesn't have to worry about defusing after using SSJBE, Gogeta does. And accelerating the timer doesn't mean the timer is automatically up.
Gogeta can't oneshot when using KK. I'm not entertaining that.
- 16,963
- 4,865
>Sir Aaron showed and taught Lucario to use its aura to dodge log traps. I'd have to go check and see the specifics but I'm relatively certain that Lucario was unable to do the same feat without his training.
This, again, was never clarified in the movie. All Sir Aaron was to Lucario was someone who taught Lucario on how to use its Aura abilities better. It wasnt explicitly said that Lucario needed Sir Aaron. They were nothing but training partners.
>I would also note that Riley is one of the few people capable of using aura, so it's possible that he taught his Lucario similarly.
This is also never clarified and is even more of a bigger assumption. Nothing suggests Riley taught Lucario how to use its aura sensing capabilities. Especially because of how he blatantly says "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" instead of something akin to saying "I taught Lucario how to catch aura". Not to mention Diamond's Pokedex outright showing the entry that says Lucario has that ability (and pokedex entries apply to average mon unless your a god tier).
>Also, isn't that from Adventures? Would it have any bearing on Pokemon 7? After all, I don't think Adventures has much weight to the games or even the anime regarding canonicity. Maybe Pokemon 7 has the same author?
It would since Pokemon is a multiverse where all of the canons have bearing on each other as being parallel universes. That and neither of these lucario use special abilities that are beyond what any Lucario can have, especially Riley's.
This, again, was never clarified in the movie. All Sir Aaron was to Lucario was someone who taught Lucario on how to use its Aura abilities better. It wasnt explicitly said that Lucario needed Sir Aaron. They were nothing but training partners.
>I would also note that Riley is one of the few people capable of using aura, so it's possible that he taught his Lucario similarly.
This is also never clarified and is even more of a bigger assumption. Nothing suggests Riley taught Lucario how to use its aura sensing capabilities. Especially because of how he blatantly says "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" instead of something akin to saying "I taught Lucario how to catch aura". Not to mention Diamond's Pokedex outright showing the entry that says Lucario has that ability (and pokedex entries apply to average mon unless your a god tier).
>Also, isn't that from Adventures? Would it have any bearing on Pokemon 7? After all, I don't think Adventures has much weight to the games or even the anime regarding canonicity. Maybe Pokemon 7 has the same author?
It would since Pokemon is a multiverse where all of the canons have bearing on each other as being parallel universes. That and neither of these lucario use special abilities that are beyond what any Lucario can have, especially Riley's.
- 40,473
- 12,954
>Lucario has no training in ki
>Ki is the life energy of every living being
>Aura is the life energy of every living being
>Lucario, the Aura Pokemon
Hmm...
>Broly has more skill than Lucario
>Species starts training upon coming out of the egg (like almost every Pokémon) and is as skilled as a Pokémon that has mastered every martial art and this individual Lucario is above the average species.
If you said Gogeta, sure, but Broly? Bull.
>Ki is the life energy of every living being
>Aura is the life energy of every living being
>Lucario, the Aura Pokemon
Hmm...
>Broly has more skill than Lucario
>Species starts training upon coming out of the egg (like almost every Pokémon) and is as skilled as a Pokémon that has mastered every martial art and this individual Lucario is above the average species.
If you said Gogeta, sure, but Broly? Bull.
- 3,307
- 2,653
...Hmm. It's hard to say, actually. We don't actually know if there is life in the universe (probably but no true confirmation) so I can't claim Gogeta would just teleport Lucario to some alien world then dip.
I suppose I could, however, claim that Gogeta could hypothetically warp Lucario to the Antarctic or even a volcano. Lucario shouldn't be able to leave the Antarctic easily and if Gogeta warps to a volcano and just tosses Lucario in, he will die quickly. Although one could argue that nothing stops Gogeta from just blowing Lucario into the core of a planet at any time. I don't recall if Goku went to the Earth's core via IT or not as well.
I suppose if speed is equalized, Lucario could just run on the ocean itself...But, yeah. I would guess a volcano would work.
There also isn't much argument that Gogeta couldn't just fling Lucario into outer space, if he can grab it. I don't think pokemon have the ability to breath in space, outside of legendaries like Rayquaza and Deoxys.
I suppose I could, however, claim that Gogeta could hypothetically warp Lucario to the Antarctic or even a volcano. Lucario shouldn't be able to leave the Antarctic easily and if Gogeta warps to a volcano and just tosses Lucario in, he will die quickly. Although one could argue that nothing stops Gogeta from just blowing Lucario into the core of a planet at any time. I don't recall if Goku went to the Earth's core via IT or not as well.
I suppose if speed is equalized, Lucario could just run on the ocean itself...But, yeah. I would guess a volcano would work.
There also isn't much argument that Gogeta couldn't just fling Lucario into outer space, if he can grab it. I don't think pokemon have the ability to breath in space, outside of legendaries like Rayquaza and Deoxys.
- 16,963
- 4,865
>I suppose I could, however, claim that Gogeta could hypothetically warp Lucario to the Antarctic or even a volcano. Lucario shouldn't be able to leave the Antarctic easily and if Gogeta warps to a volcano and just tosses Lucario in, he will die quickly. Although one could argue that nothing stops Gogeta from just blowing Lucario into the core of a planet at any time. I don't recall if Goku went to the Earth's core via IT or not as well.
All of this is, like, majorly worthless against a 2-C...
All of this is, like, majorly worthless against a 2-C...
- 21,390
- 2,978
Lol
Another universe buster that can't breathe in space.
Another universe buster that can't breathe in space.
- 3,307
- 2,653
Aura. Read a Pokédex entry. If you were getting on my case on seeing the Broly movie (I only saw it on bootleg give me a break ovo), the least you can do is do me the same courtesy and read Lucario's Pokédex entries. Heck, the scan of Riley explaining shows a Pokédex entry from the games.
Cal. Don't be insulting. I have played Pokemon games since I was a young child. I'm arguing against Lucario having the Ki Control or capacity to deal with Gogeta's God Bind due to Aura having, seemingly, different methods of training based on more of sensory training rather than power or control.
Why would Gogeta just assume a random technique is poison based? Between combating Lucario, he shouldn't have that level of caution about random spores. Sure barriers can block it but it's not like Lucario is incapable of figuring out when Gogeta will barrier or not due to aura sense. I'll get to Kaio Ken later but aura explosion has zero bearing here. Something tells me you're going to go into anti-hax with that bit and I'm not going to put up with that.
I didn't say he would. I said he, as a master martial artist with decades of experience, would likely consider blocking an unknown attack with an unknown ability against Lucario. Gogeta is a very free but focused fighter that doesn't give his opponent any breathing room, his entire fighting style seems to be based on counters and immense pressure (via Danmaku, constant attacks and his barriers reflecting projectiles).
I would really appreciate it if you stopped assuming my opnions or understanding of this. Implying I would use a specific argument, that Ki is Anti-Hax, is incredibly insulting. Dragon Ball characters suffer to deal with hax in their own universe with just Ki, so why would I argue they would do well with hax against other verses?
Water Pulse. That activating is way more likely than Gogeta ever BFR'ing yet you still find that to be a factor. And how would Gogeta exploding his power even help?
Water Pulse actually requires to hit Gogeta and has a 1/5th chance of proccing. It's not going to happen very often, and it's questionable if Gogeta will be hit by it more than once or twice.
Goku tied with Hit by exploding his Ki and could rip spacetime itself. If Gogeta explodes his Ki, it's as powerful as any of his other attacks and can be used for continual lengths of time (see Vegeta's Final Explosion lasting at least several seconds).
Also, Gogeta can use Final Explosion at any moment, considering Vegeta can survive it...Albeit, it would waste the timer quickly but it's an option.
Extended fight. One, we do not have confirmation that the Final Kamehameha caused defusion.
Goku and Vegeta couldn't even turn Blue after defusing. It was very clearly the result of energy loss. But say I go along with your claim. Gogeta can maintain Blue for at least several minutes with continual spam (considering the passage of time, Bulma's reactions and Cheelai and Lemo getting the DBs and wishing for Shenron to save Broly).
Blue is a muuuuuuuuch more powerful form than SSJ3 and we have confirmation that the more power means quicker timeout.
Gotenks defuses in 5 minutes or less, to memory. Vegito Blue and Gogeta Blue both last as long, if not longer. Power has NEVER been the cause of defusing.
This goes double for Evolution and Kaio Ken. Vegeta doesn't have to worry about defusing after using SSJBE, Gogeta does. And accelerating the timer doesn't mean the timer is automatically up.
You don't have any evidence that Blue drains the timer to any notable extent and we know that Evolution is very easy for Vegeta to maintain and use. There is nothing contradicting the possibility.
Gogeta can't oneshot when using KK. I'm not entertaining that.
Kaio-Ken X10 could, considering 7.5x AP is the standard for oneshot calculations. I didn't even say he would anyways, I just said Gogeta would finish it 'instantly' or 'quickly' with a massive power amp.
Cal. Don't be insulting. I have played Pokemon games since I was a young child. I'm arguing against Lucario having the Ki Control or capacity to deal with Gogeta's God Bind due to Aura having, seemingly, different methods of training based on more of sensory training rather than power or control.
Why would Gogeta just assume a random technique is poison based? Between combating Lucario, he shouldn't have that level of caution about random spores. Sure barriers can block it but it's not like Lucario is incapable of figuring out when Gogeta will barrier or not due to aura sense. I'll get to Kaio Ken later but aura explosion has zero bearing here. Something tells me you're going to go into anti-hax with that bit and I'm not going to put up with that.
I didn't say he would. I said he, as a master martial artist with decades of experience, would likely consider blocking an unknown attack with an unknown ability against Lucario. Gogeta is a very free but focused fighter that doesn't give his opponent any breathing room, his entire fighting style seems to be based on counters and immense pressure (via Danmaku, constant attacks and his barriers reflecting projectiles).
I would really appreciate it if you stopped assuming my opnions or understanding of this. Implying I would use a specific argument, that Ki is Anti-Hax, is incredibly insulting. Dragon Ball characters suffer to deal with hax in their own universe with just Ki, so why would I argue they would do well with hax against other verses?
Water Pulse. That activating is way more likely than Gogeta ever BFR'ing yet you still find that to be a factor. And how would Gogeta exploding his power even help?
Water Pulse actually requires to hit Gogeta and has a 1/5th chance of proccing. It's not going to happen very often, and it's questionable if Gogeta will be hit by it more than once or twice.
Goku tied with Hit by exploding his Ki and could rip spacetime itself. If Gogeta explodes his Ki, it's as powerful as any of his other attacks and can be used for continual lengths of time (see Vegeta's Final Explosion lasting at least several seconds).
Also, Gogeta can use Final Explosion at any moment, considering Vegeta can survive it...Albeit, it would waste the timer quickly but it's an option.
Extended fight. One, we do not have confirmation that the Final Kamehameha caused defusion.
Goku and Vegeta couldn't even turn Blue after defusing. It was very clearly the result of energy loss. But say I go along with your claim. Gogeta can maintain Blue for at least several minutes with continual spam (considering the passage of time, Bulma's reactions and Cheelai and Lemo getting the DBs and wishing for Shenron to save Broly).
Blue is a muuuuuuuuch more powerful form than SSJ3 and we have confirmation that the more power means quicker timeout.
Gotenks defuses in 5 minutes or less, to memory. Vegito Blue and Gogeta Blue both last as long, if not longer. Power has NEVER been the cause of defusing.
This goes double for Evolution and Kaio Ken. Vegeta doesn't have to worry about defusing after using SSJBE, Gogeta does. And accelerating the timer doesn't mean the timer is automatically up.
You don't have any evidence that Blue drains the timer to any notable extent and we know that Evolution is very easy for Vegeta to maintain and use. There is nothing contradicting the possibility.
Gogeta can't oneshot when using KK. I'm not entertaining that.
Kaio-Ken X10 could, considering 7.5x AP is the standard for oneshot calculations. I didn't even say he would anyways, I just said Gogeta would finish it 'instantly' or 'quickly' with a massive power amp.
- 3,307
- 2,653
This, again, was never clarified in the movie. All Sir Aaron was to Lucario was someone who taught Lucario on how to use its Aura abilities better. It wasnt explicitly said that Lucario needed Sir Aaron. They were nothing but training partners.
I'm not bothering to check for myself if your statements are true. But I will state that Lucario clearly underwent specialised training in Aura alongside Sir Aaron, that much is undeniable.
This is also never clarified and is even more of a bigger assumption. Nothing suggests Riley taught Lucario how to use its aura sensing capabilities. Especially because of how he blatantly says "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" instead of something akin to saying "I taught Lucario how to catch aura". Not to mention Diamond's Pokedex outright showing the entry that says Lucario has that ability (and pokedex entries apply to average mon unless your a god tier).
Having the power and wielding the power are completely separate things. I also never stated that Riley DID teach Lucario. I said it was a POSSIBILITY due to Riley knowing Aura and being a trainer. It's not farfetched for an Aura-using trainer to train his Lucario to use aura better.
It would since Pokemon is a multiverse where all of the canons have bearing on each other as being parallel universes. That and neither of these lucario use special abilities that are beyond what any Lucario can have, especially Riley's.
That's a bogus claim considering there is nothing to indicate this manga is included in this multiverse, or that the author has any authority to elaborate on Aura but I'll concede due to it mainly extrapolating from a Dex entry.
I'm not bothering to check for myself if your statements are true. But I will state that Lucario clearly underwent specialised training in Aura alongside Sir Aaron, that much is undeniable.
This is also never clarified and is even more of a bigger assumption. Nothing suggests Riley taught Lucario how to use its aura sensing capabilities. Especially because of how he blatantly says "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" instead of something akin to saying "I taught Lucario how to catch aura". Not to mention Diamond's Pokedex outright showing the entry that says Lucario has that ability (and pokedex entries apply to average mon unless your a god tier).
Having the power and wielding the power are completely separate things. I also never stated that Riley DID teach Lucario. I said it was a POSSIBILITY due to Riley knowing Aura and being a trainer. It's not farfetched for an Aura-using trainer to train his Lucario to use aura better.
It would since Pokemon is a multiverse where all of the canons have bearing on each other as being parallel universes. That and neither of these lucario use special abilities that are beyond what any Lucario can have, especially Riley's.
That's a bogus claim considering there is nothing to indicate this manga is included in this multiverse, or that the author has any authority to elaborate on Aura but I'll concede due to it mainly extrapolating from a Dex entry.
- 3,307
- 2,653
Hmm...
...Did you make any claims or provide any evidence that this Lucario has TRAINING in Aura? It's pretty obvious that Lucarios can use Aura naturally. I'm asking if this Lucario has TRAINING in the use of Aura and if it has the control or skill to outdo a Paralysis technique from a Master Martial Artist with decades of experience (nearly a century combined experience) in Ki control, as well as training with the best masters in the entire universe (Roshi, King Kai and Whis),
If you said Gogeta, sure, but Broly? Bull.
No, not bull. Vegeta himself stated Broly was learning as he fought and Broly imitated God Bind within seconds of seeing it. Broly is a natural prodigy to the highest degree in regards to power AND skill. Also, 'every' martial art? This Lucario is listed as only having 'Martial Arts' on its profile. What statements indicate that its skill is to that degree?
...Did you make any claims or provide any evidence that this Lucario has TRAINING in Aura? It's pretty obvious that Lucarios can use Aura naturally. I'm asking if this Lucario has TRAINING in the use of Aura and if it has the control or skill to outdo a Paralysis technique from a Master Martial Artist with decades of experience (nearly a century combined experience) in Ki control, as well as training with the best masters in the entire universe (Roshi, King Kai and Whis),
If you said Gogeta, sure, but Broly? Bull.
No, not bull. Vegeta himself stated Broly was learning as he fought and Broly imitated God Bind within seconds of seeing it. Broly is a natural prodigy to the highest degree in regards to power AND skill. Also, 'every' martial art? This Lucario is listed as only having 'Martial Arts' on its profile. What statements indicate that its skill is to that degree?
- 2,688
- 574
Aura and Ki would be the same thing in this battle due to SBA.
- 40,473
- 12,954
Every single Lucario has training in Aura, bar none, wild or otherwise. It's in the Pokédex.
No, Broly learning a technique after seeing it once means absolutely nothing. What, is Buu now one of the greatest martial artists to ever walk the land? Lucario has comparable skill to Machamp, who mastered every martial art. Lucarios have shown to be among the most skilled Pokémon, to the point where Alakazams look up to its exploits.
No, Broly learning a technique after seeing it once means absolutely nothing. What, is Buu now one of the greatest martial artists to ever walk the land? Lucario has comparable skill to Machamp, who mastered every martial art. Lucarios have shown to be among the most skilled Pokémon, to the point where Alakazams look up to its exploits.
- 3,307
- 2,653
Which, I don't think, anyone has denied. My arguments stem from how their training and usage of their lifeforce differs greatly. Nothing seems to indicate Lucario has the capacity to surpass Gogeta's God Bind or the control to stop it. Hell, the argument is based on Facade doubling in power, which requires Lucario to:
- Be capable of using Facade, thus mobile (Lucario can be prevented from using moves if paralysis procs)
- For Facade to actually double his Aura. As far as I am aware, Aura does not enhance the physical abilities of a pokemon, it's just the embodiment of the pokemon's lifeforce. So we would have to argue the semantics of whether or not Lucario will gain twice the Aura power when using Facade.
- 3,307
- 2,653
Lucario is actually only Massively Hypersonic+, which is still enough to just run on the ocean back to Gogeta. Speed has no relation to AP.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Also, I'm pretty sure that being 2-C doesn't automatically enable you to survive being forced into an active volcano.
ProudLearner
She/Her- 1,232
- 443
Gogeta- 7
Lucario - 1 ?
Grace Started 2 hours ago. 22 hours to go!
Lucario - 1 ?
Grace Started 2 hours ago. 22 hours to go!
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
