Let's decide who is the weakest 2-C of this site

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lucario's (to be more specific, Riolu's) aura increases while under stress, but that's not the point. All Lucario needs to do is overpower it. It doesn't need to be an aura/ki thing. What, would it work on Arceus because it doesn't use ki? Just having the raw power to bust out of it is more than enough. And why would this super Lucario have any less training than your average run-of-the-mill Lucario?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Btw sorry if I'm being a duck. This is my normal tone when I'm in "heated" (for lack of a better term) debates.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Lucario has comparable skill to Machamp, who mastered every martial art.

The pokemon planet is different enough from irl that you need to name every Martial Art because humanity developed differently.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Lucario's (to be more specific, Riolu's) aura increases while under stress, but that's not the point. All Lucario needs to do is overpower it. It doesn't need to be an aura/ki thing. What, would it work on Arceus because it doesn't use ki? Just having the raw power to bust out of it is more than enough. And why would this super Lucario have any less training than your average run-of-the-mill Lucario?

Again, Facade's 2x power only procs when it is actually used. Paralysis in the games can prevent pokemon from even using moves when it procs. I'm asking if Facade would double Lucario's Aura power, enabling it to break out of the bind, or if it has no relation to Aura (considering this is a Lifeforce vs Lifeforce fight).

Lucarios only gain power the more damaged they are, right? Meaning Lucario gaining such a boost is dependent on when Gogeta decides to use God Bind.

I don't know if Arceus would be influenced by God Bind and unable to break out. It might be unable to if it lacks the Ki/Aura to overpower it.

This 'super Lucario' isn't even a Super Lucario lmfao. All it did was KO an unconscious Darkrai (which has none of the PMD, Pokepark or Movie feats, its best feat or statement implies it has planetary range with hax) when amped by other people. Actually make the argument that it has the Aura training to deal with this technique, seriously.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, unlike Gogeta, at least there's someone actually 2-C involved in the scaling.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ohohohoho! We both know that Darkrai (Pokemon 7) isn't 2-C. At least Gogeta's scaling involves actual statements, powerscaling, multipliers and places him far above many Low 2-Cs (who scale far above baseline). This Lucario defeated a weakened, unconscious, Darkrai (that scales to, at maximum, 5-B) with a super effective move while amped.

If you are going to start throwing around claims like that, I suggest you don't do it in a thread debating a poorly scaled and justified 2-C, possibly 2-B Lucario. Especially when you deny Gogeta as merely Possibly 2-C for scaling far above Low 2-Cs and for scaling to stomping Low 2-Cs capable of 2-C feats when fighting their equals.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Oh, my bad. A likely 2-B Lucario! How could I have been so foolish to think it was only possibly 2-B? My bad, truly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You started it, not me. I didn't start talking about Gogeta's tier before you started talking about Lucario's. Say what you will about Lucario and Darkrai, at least Lucario actually hit him, which is more than you can say about Gogeta to Beerus + Champa.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Having the power and wielding the power are completely separate things. I also never stated that Riley DID teach Lucario. I said it was a POSSIBILITY due to Riley knowing Aura and being a trainer. It's not farfetched for an Aura-using trainer to train his Lucario to use aura better.

And once again, there's nothing explicitly proving Lucario cannot wield an ability that is naturally given to it as part of the whole species. Dont make assumptions that arent implied to begin with. Occams Razor, Lucario knows how to wield it and arguing otherwise with 0 basis is just nitpicking through Lucarios capabilities.

Saying Riley is a trainer, so he must have taught Lucario how to do x, is a huge leap in logic. Thats like saying Ash taught Pikachu how to use thunderbolt because Ash is Pikachu's trainer.

>That's a bogus claim considering there is nothing to indicate this manga is included in this multiverse

And there is nothing to indicate that it isnt included in the multiverse. A Multiverse where canons are explicitly treated as being a part of each other, having many cross-canon references, and having parallel universes where some are similar yet also vastly different in events. This manga has 0 reason to not be a part of this standard.

Replying to this because I felt the need to regardless.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, stop with this "Pokemon 7 Darkrai isnt 2-C"2-B. We had a huge thread on this a while ago and it was vastly explained on why this isnt the case.

Darkrai's tier scales to all Darkrai's all around.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Speaking of Darkrai, when is the Tobias profile being made?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

And once again, there's nothing explicitly proving Lucario cannot wield an ability that is naturally given to it as part of the whole species. Dont make assumptions that arent implied to begin with.

I'm not. All I have claimed is that Lucario has to actually undergo training to use the full potential of its aura, not that it can't use aura (Aren't Rilous born with or capable of learning Force Palm at a super low-level?). Riley's Lucario was trained by an Aura user and Aaron's Lucario was trained with an Aura Guardian. This Lucario was trained by someone with no experience or understanding of Aura, to my knowledge.

Occams Razor, Lucario knows how to wield it and arguing otherwise with 0 basis is just nitpicking through Lucarios capabilities.

No, not even remotely. I'm arguing that this Lucario doesn't have the same skill as Aaron's Lucario or Riley's Lucario due to not being trained by an Aura user or having no evidence of undergoing Aura training. Which is a very fair, reasonable, claim to make.

Saying Riley is a trainer, so he must have taught Lucario how to do x, is a huge leap in logic. Thats like saying Ash taught Pikachu how to use thunderbolt because Ash is Pikachu's trainer.

...No. Ash can't CREATE ELECTRICITY. Riley can actually manifest, manipulate and understand Aura on a level that Non-Aura using Lucario trainers can't comprehend. I am claiming that Riley, as his Lucario's trainer, can train it more effectively with Aura than a Non-Aura user could. Which is another very fair, reasonable, claim for me to make.

I've already chosen to concede on the multiversal stuff, due to it not contradicting or really adding to canon. It's only extrapolating so I'm fine with using that scan.

Not going to argue with Cal if he's resorting to arguing over tiering. My argument regarding the 'super Lucario' claim is that there is no basis for it being 'super', thus making it unreasonable to believe it has special training. Even if we claimed that Lucario defeated a likely 2-B Darkrai, it still wouldn't be likely 2-B for defeating an unconscious, weakened, Darkrai while Lucario was being amped + a supereffective Aura Sphere.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Also, stop with this "Pokemon 7 Darkrai isnt 2-C"2-B. We had a huge thread on this a while ago and it was vastly explained on why this isnt the case.
Darkrai's tier scales to all Darkrai's all around.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to make a CRT (even if the rationale is utterly stupid. Every pokemon in Ash's party is obviously Likely 2-B amiright). However, the claim that it is a 'Super Lucario' when it could only hope to defeat Darkrai in such a vulnerable and weak state would, in my mind, bring into question its actual AP. Even if we say that it's just somehow 2-C (with no feats or scaling to justify it) I would still claim that there is nothing to show it has the skill or training to match that AP.

Essentially speaking, claiming it has particular training or advantages is ridiculous without particular skill feats, statements or training to place it above Riley's Lucario or Aaron's Lucario in-terms of Aura. (Why aren't all Lucarios Likely 2-B anyways? Darkrai is only a Mythical pokemon so it's not like it's some super special legendary to justify claiming all members of its species is likely 2-B.)

 

[Jared1111]

Lucario because Gogeta is wanked.

I'm not really gonna have to point out the irony of this statement right?

Either way, i'd probably go for Gogeta FRA.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>I'm not. All I have claimed is that Lucario has to actually undergo training to use the full potential of its aura, not that it can't use aura (Aren't Rilou's born with or capable of learning Force Palm at a super low-level?). Riley's Lucario was trained by an Aura user and Aaron's Lucario was trained with an Aura Guardian. This Lucario was trained by someone with no experience or understanding of Aura, to my knowledge.

And if Pokemon weren't capable of using any of their natural capabilities right after being born, I would be more inclined to agree with you. The fact that they can, and that Riolu being able to use Aura is a thing before it evolves into Lucario, would disagree much with this argument of yours.

>No, not even remotely. I'm arguing that this Lucario doesn't have the same skill as Aaron's Lucario or Riley's Lucario due to not being trained by an Aura user or having no evidence of undergoing Aura training. Which is a very fair, reasonable, claim to make.

See above. Lucario doesnt need to undergo training to use abilities its already naturally capable of, just as any pokemon doesnt need training to use their abilities when they can already do so right after being born. At best, your argument only means the Lucario trained by Sir Aaron simply learned how to use its Aura better than it already can. Im not addressing Riley since there's not one shred of evidence that Riley put his Lucario through Aura Training.

So no, its not reasonable. Especially for the latter where no such kind of training is even remotely hinted to have happened.

>...No. Ash can't CREATE ELECTRICITY. Riley can actually manifest, manipulate and understand Aura on a level that Non-Aura using Lucario trainers can't comprehend. I am claiming that Riley, as his Lucario's trainer, can train it more effectively with Aura than a Non-Aura user could. Which is another very fair, reasonable, claim for me to make.

Even if we disregard my Ash example, this is still nothing but a pure assumption. It being possible and it being factual are 2 different things. There is no evidence that Riley put his Lucario through Aura training in the slightest just because he himself can use the same power. Not one mention or hint of this event happening in Adventures. The fact that he didnt even say anything such as "I trained Lucario" but instead flat out said "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" works in my favor instead of yours.

>Even if we claimed that Lucario defeated a likely 2-B Darkrai, it still wouldn't be likely 2-B for defeating an unconscious, weakened, Darkrai while Lucario was being amped + a supereffective Aura Sphere.

Just going to say, your making this out to be far more than it actually is. For one, "a supereffective Aura Sphere" doesnt matter much since type advantage becomes completely irrelevant to legendaries in general unless their opponents are on or above the same level of capability as they are. Two, Darkrai was not weakened, he was only unconscious. And three, Lucario was amped but the power of the feat was still mostly Lucario contributting to it.

So yes this would be a Likely 2-B for even making Darkrai flinch, let alone knocking it over.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Darkrai is only a Mythical pokemon so it's not like it's some super special legendary to justify claiming all members of its species is likely 2-B.

Because Darkrai is not exactly a vast species where there are tons of them running around. Only a few of them at the most and there's 0 reason to assume only one Darkrai is immensely or infinitely above the capabilities of another one of its kind. Again, something already well dealt with in the thread where this was put into question. A while ago.

And if your not going to make a CRT about this, then drop it. Needlessly complaining about the ratings and not doing a thing about it in a thread where it would actually matter is not going to change anything and is ultimately pointless.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

>Even if we claimed that Lucario defeated a likely 2-B Darkrai, it still wouldn't be likely 2-B for defeating an unconscious, weakened, Darkrai while Lucario was being amped + a supereffective Aura Sphere.

Just going to say, your making this out to be far more than it actually is. For one, "a supereffective Aura Sphere" doesnt matter much since type advantage becomes completely irrelevant to legendaries in general unless their opponents are on or above the same level of capability as they are. Two, Darkrai was not weakened, he was only unconscious. And three, Lucario was amped but the power of the feat was still mostly Lucario contributting to it.

So yes this would be a Likely 2-B for even making Darkrai flinch, let alone knocking it over.

And if Pokemon weren't capable of using any of their natural capabilities right after being born, I would be more inclined to agree with you. The fact that they can, and that Riolu being able to use Aura is a thing before it evolves into Lucario, would disagree much with this argument of yours.

Again, not denying they can't. I'm stating they must be refined through actual training. Let's put it this way, okay? Riolu learns Force Palm at Level 15. Lucario learns Aura Sphere at Level 42, Heal Pulse at Level 51 and Dragon Pulse at Level 60. The Riolu/Lucario family clearly learns more advanced applications of Aura as they grow stronger via training. This would also apply to their passive abilities with aura, considering they have to learn how to shift Aura into different typings and effects over time.

So no, its not reasonable. Especially for the latter where no such kind of training is even remotely hinted to have happened.

I've already stated, constantly, that I'm not denying they have access to natural abilities. I am denying that they can use the full potential of their abilities without training. Hell, Lucario learns moves like Water Pulse, Dark Pulse and such by Tutors or TMs. Albeit, this Lucario DOES Know Water Pulse so it's clear it has underwent some form of Aura-based training. The extent of this training is unknown however.

It being possible and it being factual are 2 different things. There is no evidence that Riley put his Lucario through Aura training in the slightest just because he himself can use the same power. Not one mention or hint of this event happening in Adventures. The fact that he didnt even say anything such as "I trained Lucario" but instead flat out said "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" works in my favor instead of yours.

I never claimed it was factual. I have consistently claimed it as possible. The inherent fact that Riley is the trainer of Lucario already raises the possibility of Riley augmenting Lucario's training with his own experiences and understanding of Aura. That statement also doesn't work in your 'favor' considering that was merely an objective statement that Lucarios have the power to use Aura, not that they do not require training to wield it.

Aaron's Lucario had to undergo training to perform Aaron's log training, so I don't understand why you feel so compelled to imply that training isn't required. It's like you are denying the existence of trainers entirely.

Just going to say, your making this out to be far more than it actually is. For one, "a supereffective Aura Sphere" doesnt matter much since type advantage becomes completely irrelevant to legendaries in general unless their opponents are on or above the same level of capability as they are. Two, Darkrai was not weakened, he was only unconscious. And three, Lucario was amped but the power of the feat was still mostly Lucario contributting to it.

Actually, Aura Sphere would deal 2x damage to Darkrai. The Darkrai was unconscious (which WOULD make him weakened via actual rationale and not mere game mechanics) AND Lucario was amped. It's actually quite in my favor to claim that this Lucario being 2-C, or even 2-B, is completely baseless. It would actually be Low 2-C, Likely 2-C as I am quite certain that the 2-C key only makes Darkrai baseline. I am uncertain how PMD Darkrai scales from Palkia/Dialga, considering much of that was mere hax. How far does Dialga scale into 2-B?

And if your not going to make a CRT about this, then drop it. Needlessly complaining about the ratings and not doing a thing about it in a thread where it would actually matter is not going to change anything and is ultimately pointless.

No, I'm not going to drop it. I am debunking Cal's baseless claim that this is a 'super Lucario' that would have special training. I don't care about your ridiculous argumentation for a 2-B Lucario, based on a completely different canon against a Darkrai with absolutely zero 2-C or 2-B feats, who at most scales to planetary. You can live in your own world of wank all that you please. But I won't accept Cal using it to try and claim that this Lucario is even remotely impressive in regards to its training, skill or otherwise regarding Aura when there is nothing to indicate it has such talent.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Because Darkrai is not exactly a vast species where there are tons of them running around. Only a few of them at the most and there's 0 reason to assume only one Darkrai is immensely or infinitely above the capabilities of another one of its kind. Again, something already well dealt with in the thread where this was put into question. A while ago.

Oh, I see. So are Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Black, Bra, Pan and every other currently living saiyan a borderline 2-C? The Saiyans are a very rare species in Universe 7, and there are plenty of feats with Low 2-C Saiyans. Goten, Trunks, Bra and Pan are almost entirely featless in Super, so surely we can make them Low 2-C for being the very rare, mythical, saiyan race, yes?

It wasn't 'dealt with'. I looked at that thread and the argumention regarding species was, honestly, pathetic. Please don't even remotely try to imply that this scaling is sensible. It's honestly one of the biggest jokes I've seen on this entire wiki.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It is similar logic to how each stage of a pokemon is considered to have a general tiering.

 

[Schnee_One]

Chill out guys. Honestly

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Fair enough, Schnee. I'm just somewhat irritated over how the same people that questioned and vehemently opposed Gogeta being possibly 2-C, would advocate for a likely 2-B Lucario with such flimsy reasoning.

This is derailing this thread, either way. I apologise for my lapse and overall insulting tone.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

^

 

[Schnee_One]

I mean either way this is not only either an AP stomp or a Hax stomp for Lucario but this thread kinda went south immediately, like most Pokémon and Dragon Ball matches

 

[Schnee_One]

'''DROP IT NOW'''

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

2-B Lucario is wank and even more inconsistent than 2-C Gogeta tbh. Than again I shouldn't be surprised that someone who wanks his favorite verses and tries to make shitty reasons for why rivals verses are weak in compariso

You've already been warned for comments like this before. Calm it down.

 

[BlastX]

So...Can we get back to the match up instead of going on and on about calling their tiers wank?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why was my first reply deleted?

I understand the 2nd one (came off as kind of antagonistic, so my bad), but my 1st one was counter arguments against the Gogeta side of this match.

 

[Schnee_One]

Ignoring the fact that you went on about Wank in your first post so you did.

This is a stomp either way, and we really shouldn't keep going with a thread this far derailed

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Fair enough.

I'll admit I got rather heated by Cyro's replies, so I apologize again for my antagonistic replies.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

This is a stomp either way, and we really shouldn't keep going with a thread this far derailed

So, before you close this thread, let me ask you a question, why is this match a stomp anyway? I actually thought I got the 2-C Pokémon less haxxed from the site to be fair to put a fight against Gogeta.

 

[BlastX]

Yeah i'm wondering that too.

 

[Schnee_One]

Aside from Precog and Poisoning Gogeta, there's like 3 other reasons for closing it.

Plus, either side says it's possibly a one shot so.