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Let's decide who is the weakest 2-C of this site

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Lucario scaling to a Darkrai completely unrelated to PMD or Movie Darkrai is pure BS but I'll ignore that for now.

Assuming they are both baseline, Gogeta almost certainly takes this due to flight, Danmaku, paralysis, internal detonation, superior senses, BFR, barriers and so on. Gogeta has everything Lucario has but better.
 
Senses aren't superior when Lucario's senses are so good that it doubles as mind reading.

Internal detonation doesn't work unless the opponent is weaker.
 
That's more of psychic ability. I am referring to Gogeta's senses being at least nearly as large as the universe itself in range (Considering RoF Goku could sense Gohan from Beerus' planet, when Earth is at the edge of the universe).

Can Lucario suppress its presence? If not, Gogeta is capable of sensing Lucario regardless of its position or attempts at stealth.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
That's more of psychic ability. I am referring to Gogeta's senses being at least nearly as large as the universe itself in range (Considering RoF Goku could sense Gohan from Beerus' planet, when Earth is at the edge of the universe).

Can Lucario suppress its presence? If not, Gogeta is capable of sensing Lucario regardless of its position or attempts at stealth.
Click to expand...
I'm almost certain Goku was blindsided a few times in the ToP.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
Aren't those ki suppression feats?
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I'm not talking about the U3 fighters. He was jumped by that dude who could increase his weight all the way at the beginning of the tournament.
 
The real cal howard said:
DragonEmperor23 said:
Aren't those ki suppression feats?
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about the U3 fighters. He was jumped by that dude who could increase his weight all the way at the beginning of the tournament.
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Tupper yeah I remember that but honestly Goku was constantly blindsided in the ToP. However being that Gogeta is the product of both Goku and Vegeta, one can assume Vegeta's serious straightforward nature would cancel out Goku's constant problem of letting his guard down.

Besides I think it's easier for Goku or anyone of that matter to focus on one opponent in a 1v1 since it's not like Lucario is gonna blindside him through a distraction of some sort which is how Goku was mainly caught off guard throughout the entire series.
 
Worth noting that Goku was constantly improving after he went Ultra Instinct Omen for the first time. IIRC it was outright stated by Whis that Goku was rapidly learning as he fought SS2 Caulifa, despite being at a power and stamina disadvantage.

So Goku may not fall for the same trick by Tupper, now that he has improved greatly as a fighter. This would also correlate with Gogeta's own potential skill.
 
Dude, Goku's been alive fifty years. If you're saying getting ambushed by Tupper is something he's just now learning to adapt to then he's not a good martial artist lol.

Also, while not important to the match, Kefla having a power advantage over UIO2 Goku is a misconception. While (If Roshi is to be believed) Goku could get one-shot by a single one of those beams, it's explicitly stated that she's letting out every inch of her power in this one final attack. In other words, she can only one-shot Goku while using the DB equivalent of Final Gambit.
 
The real cal howard said:
So what's protecting Gogeta from Toxic? He dealt with poison before but he had to figure out it was poison. If that lands, Lucario just needs to wait out Gogeta.
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This Here

the way you keep questioning Goku in this thread it seems you don't know DB.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
He does, he's just skeptical.
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I knew he was skeptic.... from recent threads.

But the way he questions without reasearch someone could interpret it differently.
 
The real cal howard said:
Dude, Goku's been alive fifty years. If you're saying getting ambushed by Tupper is something he's just now learning to adapt to then he's not a good martial artist lol.
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Okay? What's your point? This doesn't contradict anything I said.

And after taking a look, your point regarding Tupper has no basis. Goku wasn't 'jumped'. He was fighting the Pride Troopers and Tupper somehow grabbed him, with no context provided for how Tupper grabbed him in the fight. Literally, Goku, Caulifa and Kale were confronted by the Pride Troopers, it fades to Roshi and then later it returns to a bunch of clashes ending in Goku being grabbed by Tupper. So Goku was only grabbed when he was busy fighting other Pride Troopers.

To add further, Goku would have only been grabbed if Tupper were suppressing his energy, which Goku can most likely sense in his base form (due to Tupper being able to hold Goku in place, albeit increasing his weight to do so). Unless Lucario has a way to suppress the presence of his life force, he isn't going to get the jump on Goku via sneak attacks.
 
Because if Goku hasn't adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?

Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that, but even then, why give someone an ability they've never shown? Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability rather the vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard down, which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back.
 
"Because if Goku hasn't adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?"

In what other scenario has Goku gotten jumped like that before? When has he gotten jumped from behind to allow him to adapt in his 4 straight years of Martial Arts?

Most major scenarios was 1v1 against the Big Bad and the only time he got caught off guard in RoF was when he practically already won and Freeza straight up couldn't do anything to him anymore.

Your argument hinges on Goku not adapting to something after years of experience despite that something never coming up prior.

"Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that, but even then, why give someone an ability they've never shown? "

Lucario has never demonstrated the ability to hide and conceal his own Aura presence so no, it cannot do that. Even if it has the capacity to do, it wouldn't know to do so.

"Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability rather the vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard down, which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back."

Wow it's like you ignored all context in the RoF arc! The point was Goku let his guard down because he already won. The problem was that he assumed victory too early in that scenario. In practically no other scenario has Goku let his guard down infront of an enemy to the point he gets mortally wounded.

Plus what the hell? Cal. Dude. Ki Concealment and Presence Hiding as well as Ki Detection are all basic abilities any adept Ki User should be able to do once they get past at least Raditz-level power. Everybody in the ToP are the top-fighters and arguable best in their respective universes with Tupper being a member of the Elite Pride Troopers who work directly under a God of Destruction. Why in the world wouldn't they know the bare basics of Ki Abilities?
 
The real cal howard said:
Because if Goku hasn't adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?
Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that, but even then, why give someone an ability they've never shown? Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability rather the vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard down, which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back.
Click to expand...
Because if Goku hasn't adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?

Because Master Roshi, the person who trained Goku and is considered such a great martial artist that even Beerus respects him, believes Goku was using Ultra Instinct to keep up with Caulifa and Kale. Krillin, Tien, Beerus and no one else could believe Goku's ridiculous improvements as a martial artist with Whis outright stating Goku was sharpening his skills as he fought, similar to how he could improve in Ultra Instinct. Goku's leap in performance is so vast, so great, from when he fought Tupper that even Beerus was astounded and seemed to consider Goku using Ultra Instinct to be plausible.

Also, Goku went from 3-A to Low 2-C in those '45 minutes of fighting' so I honestly have no idea why you think Goku can't do the same in-regards to pure skill. It's quite clear his limits as a martial artist were also broken by using Ultra instinct.

Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that

Can you show us some feats to indicate Lucario can hide its life force?

why give someone an ability they've never shown? Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability

It's extremely doubtful that he lack the ability to suppress his energy. He is a veteran warrior of the pride troopers, one of the absolute strongest in the entire multiverse and one of the 10 best fighters of Universe 11. Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo all displayed energy suppression abilities, IIRC and even Frieza, someone who has never trained before, could suppress his energy levels down to 1% of his power. The only people who lacked ki suppression would be Frieza's soldiers who had never received training in Ki Control like those that know Ki suppression.

Overall, it's a basic assumption to believe Tupper has access to suppressing his power when he is one of the 10 best warriors of his universe, when it's an extremely basic skill and when other members of his team have displayed the ability to control their energy output. It is a clearly established ability that anyone with half-decent training can utilise.

vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard dow

Not a chance. Tupper states Goku let his guard down.

which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back.

Against a defeated Frieza, yes. He didn't anticipate a secondary person (who, mind you, is an ant to him) to shoot him in the chest. The only times Goku has ever let his guard down is when he doesn't anticipate other people to sneak attack him. If he is in a 1v1 fight, his defenses won't be penetrated.

Thisis Goku against Hit, an assassin from Universe 6 and the greatest warrior of universe 6. In a one-on-one match with no interlopers, Goku can handle Hit's invisible attacks, battle against his dimensional phasing and ultimately tie with him. So it's less that 'Goku lets his guard down' and more of 'Goku has blind spots when focusing on fighting a single person'.

Tupper only got the drop on Goku due to Goku already fighting the Pride Troopers, evident by the numerous pillars of dust exploding from clashes at the location Goku was grabbed and the fact that Tupper grabbed Goku from behind. Overall, your claims have no value when Goku is fighting a singular person.
 
Not a single bit of my argument hinged on Lucario using stealthy tactics to win because that's not in character, but saying Goku will never let something sneak up on him is fallacious as heck. I don't care what the context was with Tupper or the RoF dude, it happened. If the Saiyan has universal sensing under his belt, being busy or someone being an ant to him when he already won should've been child's play.
 
The real cal howard said:
Not a single bit of my argument hinged on Lucario using stealthy tactics to win because that's not in character, but saying Goku will never let something sneak up on him is fallacious as heck. I don't care what the context was with Tupper or the RoF dude, it happened. If the Saiyan has universal sensing under his belt, being busy or someone being an ant to him when he already won should've been child's play.
Click to expand...
...Uhhh...

Gogeta FRA.
 
The real cal howard said:
So what's protecting Gogeta from Toxic? He dealt with poison before but he had to figure out it was poison. If that lands, Lucario just needs to wait out Gogeta.
Click to expand...
Wait when did Movie 7 Lucario use Toxic? Are we able to assume moves for very specific Pokemon? I only recall that Lucario knowing Aura Sphere and Detect.
 
The real cal howard said:
Not a single bit of my argument hinged on Lucario using stealthy tactics to win because that's not in character, but saying Goku will never let something sneak up on him is fallacious as heck. I don't care what the context was with Tupper or the RoF dude, it happened. If the Saiyan has universal sensing under his belt, being busy or someone being an ant to him when he already won should've been child's play.
Click to expand...
Context means everything. I cited Goku dodging and handling all of Hit's invisible attacks when fully focusing on fighting his opponent. Goku's issue is that he focuses too much on his opponent, opening holes in his defense that someone he isn't focusing on can exploit.

If Lucario could, for example, create clones or set up traps that Goku is unaware of, Goku would very likely be hit by said attacks due to focusing on Lucario, thus creating gaps in his defense. In a 1v1 match, Goku performs at his best.
 
Cal... are you seriously saying that you purposefully ignore context behind feats and events as well as reasons for those events even occuring in the first place?

What? Might as well not debate in that case
 
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