Lets come back to this: One Piece downgrade thread

[KingTempest]

That's good

 

[Raiden38]

I added a new end

the first version is always better imo

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why use 10 frames? We clearly see that Luffy only took 1 frame to swing it all the way around upon properly accelerating and getting past Kaidou. Also like this it’s weaker than pre-decompression which makes no sense

The acceleration part is absolutely a valid point, but the "being weaker than pre-decompression" isn't as strong a point because it can always just scale higher regardless of what the fan calc says

 

[Vzearr]

I think this is sufficient reasoning as to why the 1 frame calc is flawed:

I can't comment on what precisely we should go for here without seeing the alternative calc in its own blog to evaluate, but to give my take on it.

Using the frame-by-frame site and the clip linked in the original calc here, the original calc seems to be making this assertion:

Means that the full 180 degree spin of Luffy's gigantic fist happened in that single frame from 2328 to 2329. Those frames are this and this. I don't see how that could be gotten from that.

If that's a typo and the calc meant 2338 instead, where it goes from here to here, then I can understand it a bit better... But I do not think this makes for a reliable timeframe. Because for the next 62 frames (until that clip ends) Luffy and Kaido hardly move at all. Despite the fact that Kaido should be moving at extreme speed having covered that distance between frames 2338 and 2339 in less than 5% of a second, he is then shown having hardly moved for the next 2 and a half seconds? There are major visual inconsistencies there.

As KT pointed out above, "different scenes move at different frame rates". Saying that Kaido literally didn't move at all in 2 and a half seconds doesn't work because Cinematic Time is unreliable if it is suggested that a scene is slowed down. But the same is true if it is implied a scene is sped up too. The gap between frames 2338 and 2339 looks like a cut to me. We don't see the movement being depicted; Kaido is just instantaneously further away while Luffy's arm appears to have swung around. Despite neither of them moving this quickly before or after this cut.

So out of all the hundreds of frames of the punch being depicted here... Only 1 jump in frames is the accurate visual depiction of the speed here? That doesn't work for me personally based on what our current rules look like.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You could say that (particularly, the 2 seconds where Kaido's just not moving) whether it's the 1 frame end or the 10 frame end, and trying to apply it to only one part comes off as cherrypicking. The move then would be "let's not use that entirely, and as such, let's drop the calc as a whole since we can't find speed."

To which I say: That's an utterly ridiculous way to dismiss a feat, and I can confidently say I'd never agree to that

 

[Vzearr]

You could say that (particularly, the 2 seconds where Kaido's just not moving) whether it's the 1 frame end or the 10 frame end, and trying to apply it to only one part comes off as cherrypicking. The move then would be "let's not use that entirely, and as such, let's drop the calc as a whole since we can't find speed."

To which I say: That's an utterly ridiculous way to dismiss a feat, and I can confidently say I'd never agree to that

I don't think the feat is valid. But I definitely don't think the 1 frame end is valid, for reasoning above.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, I don't think any of the CGMs have agreed to axing the calc entirely. In fact, the post from Damage you're quoting is about his issues with using 1 frame, which circles back to what I just posted

 

[Vzearr]

Okay then I'll list my reasoning as to why this calc should be axed completely.

1. The assumption that the timeframe of the feat corresponds proportionally to the frames in which it's animated is flawed for several reasons.

• After the frame cut, Kaido remains suspended mid-air without movement for 2 seconds. This contradicts the notion that his motion was 'continuous' (which it should be), suggesting that the timeframe between these frames doesn't reflect the real-time. Therefore, these frames shouldn't be considered at all.
• The argument that Luffy would have "accelerated" after releasing Kaido is flawed, he accelerates tenfold implying that Kaido weighs more than Luffy's fist (which can be disproven with a calc that I hope I don't have to make). According to Newton's third law, the force exerted by Luffy is equal to the force Kaido exerts in return. If Luffy were to accelerate tenfold after releasing Kaido, it would imply that Kaido weighs more than Luffy's fist (depending on the panel used this could change, which leads to my second point). The other assumptions would be that Kaido would have been applying massive amounts of resistance to Luffy, which can't be true as he was knocked out, another would be assuming Luffy would have accelerated after letting go of Kaido which is baseless and makes no sense. Which leads to me saying that a frame cut suggests that the timeframe doesn't reflect the real-time and falls under our "Cinematic Time" page.

2. The inconsistency in the size of Luffy's fist brings significant variability in the calc's results. Depending on which panel is used to determine its mass, the results can vary by up to tenfold (probably higher).

So, that concludes that the timeframe of the feat isn't actually indicative of how fast it happens, and that the mass of the fist is extremely unreliable. This could axe the entire feat, or just the 1 frame part.

 

[CloverDragon03]

"Inconsistent size" debates have been the bane of my existence, so I'll just leave it at saying that the size we currently use is the one I favor - as it requires the least amount of necessary pixel scaling steps and focuses on shots where the size of the Bajrang Gun is emphasized. That's all I have to say, and I don't intend to speak further on the matter because I hate this topic (not just with One Piece, but with any verse).

As for the speed, it's a simple case of Luffy's fist accelerating after no longer colliding with an object, which would make its speed higher. That's a natural thing that you don't need to be a mathematician to understand. You know what you do damn near need to be one to understand? Literally everything you just said, which is stuff that the animators aren't really taking into account. Using that as a means to axe the calc does not sit right with me at all.

So no, I say absolutely not to axing the calc. The timeframe itself is neither here nor there for me

 

[KingTempest]

Okay then I'll list my reasoning as to why this calc should be axed completely.

1. The assumption that the timeframe of the feat corresponds proportionally to the frames in which it's animated is flawed for several reasons.

• After the frame cut, Kaido remains suspended mid-air without movement for 2 seconds. This contradicts the notion that his motion was 'continuous' (which it should be), suggesting that the timeframe between these frames doesn't reflect the real-time. Therefore, these frames shouldn't be considered at all.

Yeah because after the needed showing, everything stopped to analyze the scene.

• The argument that Luffy would have "accelerated" after releasing Kaido is flawed, he accelerates tenfold implying that Kaido weighs more than Luffy's fist (which can be disproven with a calc that I hope I don't have to make). According to Newton's third law, the force exerted by Luffy is equal to the force Kaido exerts in return. If Luffy were to accelerate tenfold after releasing Kaido, it would imply that Kaido weighs more than Luffy's fist (depending on the panel used this could change, which leads to my second point). The other assumptions would be that Kaido would have been applying massive amounts of resistance to Luffy, which can't be true as he was knocked out, another would be assuming Luffy would have accelerated after letting go of Kaido which is baseless and makes no sense. Which leads to me saying that a frame cut suggests that the timeframe doesn't reflect the real-time and falls under our "Cinematic Time" page.

That isn't how newton's law works at all.

Go push a rock in real life, then see after you move it and it's out of your way, you'd move even faster since there's nothing stopping you

2. The inconsistency in the size of Luffy's fist brings significant variability in the calc's results. Depending on which panel is used to determine its mass, the results can vary by up to tenfold (probably higher).

This is just wrong

The front fist is relatively similar in size to the head of the flame dragon, then when the spherical wrist joins the fist it becomes much larger.
Then later the flame dragon is destroyed, leaving the far smaller Kaido body, which everyone on earth agrees is minuscule compared to even Onigashima's horn, much less the fist.

You sending panels of the base Dragon Body in comparison to the flame dragon body shows you don't understand the base measuring tools being used

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay yeah it should be clarified: the Flame Dragon Kaido is much bigger than Kaido's normal dragon body

 

[Vzearr]

As for the speed, it's a simple case of Luffy's fist accelerating after no longer colliding with an object, which would make its speed higher. That's a natural thing that you don't need to be a mathematician to understand. You know what you do damn near need to be one to understand? Literally everything you just said, which is stuff that the animators aren't really taking into account. Using that as a means to axe the calc does not sit right with me at all.

You wouldn't accelerate ten fold.

Yeah because after the needed showing, everything stopped to analyze the scene.

Which would mean using the cut for the timeframe is unreliable.

Go push a rock in real life, then see after you move it and it's out of your way, you'd move even faster since there's nothing stopping you

No one denied this. Did you even read what I said? Accelerating tenfold can only happen if you apply more force after pushing it or if the object being pushed applies massive resistance to you or if the object weighs much more then you.

A better example would be if you were pushing a rock that weighs 50 grams. After you let go of the rock, assuming you applied the same amount of force, your acceleration would be faster, but not tenfold faster.

This is just wrong

The front fist is relatively similar in size to the head of the flame dragon, then when the spherical wrist joins the fist it becomes much larger.
Then later the flame dragon is destroyed, leaving the far smaller Kaido body, which everyone on earth agrees is minuscule compared to even Onigashima's horn, much less the fist.

You sending panels of the base Dragon Body in comparison to the flame dragon body shows you don't understand the base measuring tools being used

Okay yeah it should be clarified: the Flame Dragon Kaido is much bigger than Kaido's normal dragon body

Yes I know. What I said still applies.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You wouldn't accelerate ten fold.

I don't find this a valid thing to keep harping on when I've already mentioned how animators aren't going to try to be one-to-one with real world physics like this. We, as the wiki, collectively acknowledge this and don't axe calcs simply for stuff like this

You can keep saying it if you want but it's pretty much entirely appealing to reality

 

[Vzearr]

I don't find this a valid thing to keep harping on when I've already mentioned how animators aren't going to try to be one-to-one with real world physics like this. We, as the wiki, collectively acknowledge this and don't axe calcs simply for stuff like this

So because they aren't going to try to be one-to-one with real world physics then the timeframe is more likely to be correct? That's absurd!

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's not absurd at all, especially without a given reason for such absurdity. The fact of the matter is that most series aren't going to try to be one-to-one exactly with how physics works, and that's not at all something we should be axing calcs for

 

[Vzearr]

That's not absurd at all, especially without a given reason for such absurdity. The fact of the matter is that most series aren't going to try to be one-to-one exactly with how physics works, and that's not at all something we should be axing calcs for

This would lead to us considering all kinetic energy feats as valid due to the animators not trying to be one-to-one with real world physics.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This would lead to us considering all kinetic energy feats as valid due to the animators not trying to be one-to-one with real world physics.

I mean for example, technically, the reason we don't accept FTL KE feats is because FTL KE is infinite energy and the characters that do such feats in question have no actual basis for scaling to High 3-A and the like

You're pretty much demanding that every feat ever be exactly one-to-one with real life physics, which pretty much involves upending how we handle scaling. For instance, no one can be FTL since that doesn't align with real world physics and any FTL feats are just outliers or something. This is not a good precedent to follow

 

[Vzearr]

You're pretty much demanding that every feat ever be exactly one-to-one with real life physics

No I'm not.

which pretty much involves upending how we handle scaling. For instance, no one can be FTL since that doesn't align with real world physics and any FTL feats are just outliers or something. This is not a good precedent to follow

I'll attack this and talk about general feats, like when a character moves at massively hypersonic speeds to save his friend from a devil. The kinetic energy would destroy the surrounding area (but it doesn't). However, according to your justifications, it would be valid because animators don't aim to be one-to-one with real world physics.

 

[CloverDragon03]

No I'm not.

That's the precedent you're following, so simply saying you're not isn't very convincing to me. Sorry

I'll attack this and talk about general feats, like when a character moves at massively hypersonic speeds to save his friend from a devil. The kinetic energy would destroy the surrounding area (but it doesn't). However, according to your justifications, it would be valid because animators don't aim to be one-to-one with real world physics.

That's not even the same kind of example because we have specific rules in place about kinetic energy feats needing to match the destruction caused if applicable. But depending on the context, such a feat could absolutely potentially be valid

 

[Vzearr]

That's the precedent you're following, so simply saying you're not isn't very convincing to me. Sorry

If that's what I were demanding, then I wouldn't be a power scaler, since fictional feats themselves generally don't follow real-life physics.

That's not even the same kind of example because we have specific rules in place about kinetic energy feats needing to match the destruction caused if applicable.

Even though animators don't aim to be one-to-one with real world physics? That tears down your reasoning as to why the timeframe is valid.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If that's what I were demanding, then I wouldn't be a power scaler, since fictional feats themselves generally don't follow real-life physics.

So then why are you demanding it here?

Even though animators don't aim to be one-to-one with real world physics? That tears down your reasoning as to why the timeframe is valid.

Not really, because that's specifically due to destruction caused. The Bajrang Gun meets this, considering the punch was done high up in the air and when Kaido landed it caused massive environmental damage (like causing an underwater volcano to erupt)

 

[Vzearr]

So then why are you demanding it here?

I'm suggesting that the interpretation of the frame cut being invalid is more probable due to that reasoning. It's not a demand per se, there simply isn't any reasoning to assume that it's valid.

Not really, because that's specifically due to destruction caused. The Bajrang Gun meets this, considering the punch was done high up in the air and when Kaido landed it caused massive environmental damage (like causing an underwater volcano to erupt)

That wouldn't require moon level's of energy, that also doesn't justify the timeframe for the feat being correct.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm suggesting that the interpretation of the frame cut being invalid is more probable due to that reasoning. It's not a demand per se, there simply isn't any reasoning to assume that it's valid.

I don't agree with that. That is, I wouldn't take "not being one-to-one with real world physics" as a legitimate reason for the frame cut being allegedly invalid.

That wouldn't require moon level's of energy, that also doesn't justify the timeframe for the feat being correct.

Bear in mind that (if I remember correctly) we don't see the full destruction and Kaido's also sent underwater

 

[Vzearr]

I don't agree with that. That is, I wouldn't take "not being one-to-one with real world physics" as a legitimate reason for the frame cut being allegedly invalid.

'That' came with multiple other reasons.

Bear in mind that (if I remember correctly) we don't see the full destruction and Kaido's also sent underwater

Okay.

 

[CloverDragon03]

'That' came with multiple other reasons.

I wouldn't necessarily say multiple, given that most of them fall under the same thing I've talked about. The one that's more interesting to me, though, is the whole "Kaido being stuck in midair for 2 seconds" thing. I don't think that would axe the calc itself, but I do think it'd call the 1 frame end of my calc into question - again, something I'm neither here nor there about

 

[Floxy178]

Why everyone ignores mass problem?

 

[Vzearr]

Why everyone ignores mass problem?

The thread is extremely long I probably missed it, could you link it?

 

[Floxy178]

Why you used mass from KingTempest's version which uses fist length and area of front of forearm to find mass?

Also I still think that center of mass should be calculated instead of just dividing by 2 as it's less than half of whole length. Using linear KE is a lowball so using it isn't really a problem but using half of whole arm gives higher result than it should.

Difference isn't that big (in my version it becomes around 38.7% higher) but at least finding a new mass value is important because of the method that was used.

.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why everyone ignores mass problem?

I mean Therefir already said he didn't evaluate your calc because he didn't like how you got the mass. So, I think your approach is rejected

 

[Floxy178]

I mean Therefir already said he didn't evaluate your calc because he didn't like how you got the mass. So, I think your approach is rejected

I don't mean it. I'm saying that it doesn't make KingTempest's method any more usable.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's the method that's approved, though. I don't know what you mean by "I don't mean it"

 

[Floxy178]

It's the method that's approved, though. I don't know what you mean by "I don't mean it"

It's clearly wrong though. I didn't mean necessarily using my version but that one just multiplies area of forearm's front part by length of the fist.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's clearly wrong though. I didn't mean necessarily using my version but that one just multiplies area of forearm's front part by length of the fist.

Except that's what you put in your blog and that's what was rejected

Therefir also said himself to treat it like a ball and have the center of mass be the middle of it. Damage seems to be in agreement with this as well, from prior discussion

 

[Floxy178]

Except that's what you put in your blog and that's what was rejected

Therefir also said himself to treat it like a ball and have the center of mass be the middle of it. Damage seems to be in agreement with this as well, from prior discussion

What? Did you even read the blog? That was what KingTempest used in his first blog.

It's less distance away from center of rotation than middle part. That isn't very big difference just makes result around 38.7% higher but method for finding mass is completely illogical.

 

[Vzearr]

Oh I didn't notice clover made a calc! Thank you .

Also I still think that center of mass should be calculated instead of just dividing by 2 as it's less than half of whole length.

I don't think it'll be changed by much.

Why you used mass from KingTempest's version which uses fist length and area of front of forearm to find mass?

To be honest, KingTempest's method of calculating the mass seems flawed. He relied on manga dimensions to determine sizes (along with other things), which is wrong as I doubt animators follow manga dimensions thoroughly. I suggest recalculating it using the second last image here since it has a better perspective and it's the most recent view of the fist just before the feat was completed.

I will note that Clover's calc also has a problem. I disagree with using 180 degrees as Luffy's movement, if he really did move 180 degrees, his arm would be touching his rib area.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I will note that Clover's calc also has a problem. I disagree with using 180 degrees as Luffy's movement, if he really did move 180 degrees, his arm would be touching his rib area.

That wasn't originally part of the contentions with the calc so I kept the movement as is. I can see why it'd be 180 since he has his fist directly outward and it ends up directly behind him. Luffy's also leaned forward during this so I'm not quite sure if what you're saying about where his arm would end up applies here

But yes, I make da calc

 

[Floxy178]

I don't think it'll be changed by much.

Depends on mass ratio of forearm and fist

 

[Vzearr]

That wasn't originally part of the contentions with the calc so I kept the movement as is.

Yeah you're right, I should have bought it up earlier. I do think it should be considered though.

But yes, I make da calc

Thank you, I appreciate it a lot .

 

[CloverDragon03]

What do you think about my other point, though? Luffy leans forward quite a lot in that final hit, so I'm not sure how much that point about his arm hitting his rib cage holds up

 

[Vzearr]

What do you think about my other point, though? Luffy leans forward quite a lot in that final hit, so I'm not sure how much that point about his arm hitting his rib cage holds up

What does leaning forward change?